But we aren't looking to finish 3rd as a prize, the best European teams utilize a playmaker who can use the ball effectively and control a game, and I think Poch is trying to groom Dier that way but he's still young and learning the position.
Future planning - Replacing Carrick
- Thread starter Pexbo
- Start date
But we aren't looking to finish 3rd as a prize, the best European teams utilize a playmaker who can use the ball effectively and control a game, and I think Poch is trying to groom Dier that way but he's still young and learning the position.
We finished first and won many games when we played Keane and Butt together. And neither are good in dictating a play. So it still depends on the manager's playing style.
That was a very different era and we also had Scholes as a playmaker in that team, we played him with Keane mostly.
That's not true. Keane was very good at dictating play.
It depends on how you interpretated it. To me very good dictating play should be in a category of Carrick, Pirlo, Alonso, Xavi and Scholes. Keane's dictate a tempo aren't as good as them. Keane was never meant to be a midfielder with that kind of role anyway.
There were a lot of time we dropped Scholes and play Butt instead. Like I said before it depends on what the manager wants the team to play. Dictate a tempo isn't only used during modern era but it has been used in previous era as well. Dier and Dembele are used in this era and to be very effective to challenge the league. I'm not trying to say we don't need one but to me it depends on how Mourinho wants to play. He could use Makelele and Essien type as his holding midfielder or he could use Alonso and Khedira type.
Carrick better at dictating play than Keane? Come off it.
I understand if someone said Keane was a better midfielder than Carrick because he was. But when you were questioning me saying about the fact that Carrick is better dictating play than Keane, I'm truly surprised.
Being able to blast a pretty ball out to the wing isn't dictating play. Dictating play is dominating the midfield area, recycling the ball and owning your opponent.
Keane did that against some of the best midfielders in world football. He took charge. Carrick would usually fall down like a deck of cards.
I remember when everyone was talking about replacing Keane, and many were skeptical when we signed Carrick. Then I think we all realised that Keane was irreplaceable, and Carrick was the start of a different kind of midfield set-up. The truth is, replacing Keane or Scholes directly was pretty much impossible, those two were among the very best midfielders of their kind. But we moved on from them and continued to win titles.
So now similarly, there may be no need to replace Carrick. I'm guessing Mou wants a stronger and more energetic type of defensive midfielder. Or maybe he has something else in mind altogether.
So now similarly, there may be no need to replace Carrick. I'm guessing Mou wants a stronger and more energetic type of defensive midfielder. Or maybe he has something else in mind altogether.
Dictating play was one of Keane's main strengths.
Get Pogba. He can replace anyone and everyone 
For some people, the only remaining idea of Keane is the caricature, remember the thread last year arguing that he was no better a passer of the ball than Schneiderlin?
FFS, I'm going to go search for that thread now again, just for the lols. I hope that OP was binned from the Caf think people sometimes miss Keanes greatest strength's because they seen him doing alot of dirty work during the game, people think he was just a hatchet man and stuff, he was the COMPLETE midfielder. he dominated some of the biggest games in world football, and even more impressive he done it in a midfield 2, to say he aint up with some of the names mentioned above is laughable, he would have got a game in any team in the world in his prime.
I dont see why Blind cannot replace him. I think that is his natural position sitting in front of the back 2, and his distribution is superb
This. Blind is a like for like replacement for Carrick.
We need to get away from this obsession with trying to replace players with carbon copies of the players they are replacing.
We spent the best part of 5 plus years trying to find the next Keane, and in the end the player who was to be the mainstay in midfield (Carrick) was as far removed from the type of player Keane was as you could imagine.
They don't have to be identical players. Bring in top quality central midfielders and our play will evolve naturally just like it did when we went from Keane to Carrick.
We spent the best part of 5 plus years trying to find the next Keane, and in the end the player who was to be the mainstay in midfield (Carrick) was as far removed from the type of player Keane was as you could imagine.
They don't have to be identical players. Bring in top quality central midfielders and our play will evolve naturally just like it did when we went from Keane to Carrick.
Have you seen Blind play DLP? He really isn't a shadow of Mickey C.
That's not how you dictating a play mate. Dictating play is what playmaker or deeplying playmaker does. And also Carrick doesn't blast a pretty ball to the wing only. I don't know what kind games did you watch.
Dictating a play should be controlling the tempo, knows when is the best to slow it down when needed and also play a quick one when needed. Knows how and when to make a different kind range of passes with great vision such as switching the ball from left to right or right to left and make forward passes.
From what I watched in 2014/2015 season when he played midfield. Blind lacks quality compared to Carrick. Blind is weaker than Carrick and Blind dictating play is nowhere near Carrick including passing and vision. The only asset that I can approve Blind to be replacement of Carrick is just his positioning. I might be wrong on this, he might be a different player/midfielder compared to 2 seasons ago.
That's not how you dictating a play mate. Dictating play is what playmaker or deeplying playmaker does. And also Carrick doesn't blast a pretty ball to the wing only. I don't know what kind games did you watch.
Dictating a play should be controlling the tempo, knows when is the best to slow it down when needed and also play a quick one when needed. Knows how and when to make a different kind range of passes with great vision such as switching the ball from left to right or right to left and make forward passes.
The thing with Carrick is he is pretty good playmaker when given time and space. But teams have learned to press him high up, and that ability get diminished because he's not comfortable in possession. Also when teams dominated the possession and surged forward at speed, Carrick can easily be bypassed. So while he's a decent playmaker, he couldn't dictate a lot of games. Actually some games almost passed him by.
Keane isn't as good at making those long distance passes, but he was great with short to medium passes. And games don't pass him by, nobody gets through our midfield without going through him. In that way Keane was able to influence games a lot more and drive the team forward if need be. He generally left the tempo-setting or playmaking to Scholes, but he himself wasn't half bad at it when he needed to.
Back to the original point, we don't necessarily need a carbon copy of Carrick, just a good combination of midfield players. I suspect Mou might want the playmaking done a bit further up the pitch.
I never said Keane is bad in dictating a tempo so I don't see the point of your post here. You are just summarising the same thing what I did: "Carrick is better in dictating a tempo than Keane". And also your statement about time and space about Carrick isn't true IMO. Carrick finds his own space, he always move in a good place to launch a ball not the opposition players gave him space and times.
Huh, I also don't think Blind is a sufficient replacement for Carrick, but my main issue was that I don't think he sufficiently screens the defense the way Carrick did. I always feel we are lightweight and easy to penetrate in midfield with Blind playing deep instead of Carrick. Carrick was also better at recycling possession, tbf.
?
I'm confused with your post but at the same time I'm laughing at it. I don't see anything wrong about your post but why are you telling me this?
Because you said that you didn't rate Blind as Carrick's replacement because of lack of vision/passing, but you thought his positioning was good? And I'm saying I agree Blind isn't good enough for that role, but its his defensive positioning I find more suspect than passing vision. Basically we have reached the same conclusion but for different reasons.?
I'm confused with your post but at the same time I'm laughing at it. I don't see anything wrong about your post but why are you telling me this?
I thought he should have been released this summer to be honest. Felt like th perfect time to draw the curtains on an impressive United career and we could have replaced him like-for-like in this window.
As it is, we've got both him and Schweinsteiger for the deep-lying position, both fairly similar in style, even though Schweiny is a bit more advanced and not as adept defensively. Both could very feasibly leave next summer, so we'd need a top quality deep-lying player. Could see that Rueben Neves fella as a candidate for the role.
As it is, we've got both him and Schweinsteiger for the deep-lying position, both fairly similar in style, even though Schweiny is a bit more advanced and not as adept defensively. Both could very feasibly leave next summer, so we'd need a top quality deep-lying player. Could see that Rueben Neves fella as a candidate for the role.
Im 101% sure I also said he is weaker than Carrick which reflects the same thing what you said about sufficiently screen the defense and lightweight. I don't see why Blind is poor in his positioning? Both of them know how to read the game well. I don't buy any of his errors last season as a poor positioning because he plays as a centre back not midfielder.
It's the same reasons but you don't read people post properly so you think it's different.
No, not last season I thought you were talking about 2014-15? Anyway I don't know why this seems to be becoming caustic when I just made a friendly point, so will quit now.
I was talking about 2014/2015 he was proven to knows how to read the game well due to good positioning. So I'm confusing what are you talking about here? He's good in his positioning when he plays as a midfielder. If you are talking about last season then yes he made so many errors a few times in his positioning but he played as a centre back so it's different.
you posted so many funny stuff mate. Becoming caustic? Friendly points? Is mine not friendly enough I don't know what so caustic about our conversation here. I'm sure my point is friendly enough. I don't know why you think I'm being caustic just because I called Blind as a player with good positioning.
Blind is a good option. He should have played DM last season but can understand why LvG played him at CB because he prefers ball playing CBs not those who just hoof the ball forward
Incorrect. Scholes never truly started to come into his own as the deep lying playmaker we all remember until he returned from his eye ailment that he suffered right around the time Keane was turfed out after the MUTV incident. Go back and watch matches like the 2005 FA Cup final (you can find it in full on YouTube) and tell me who set the tempo for us in that match.
As for replacing Carrick, Blind is probably a decent enough option until a player of the class we need becomes available.
For those who said Carrick is better than Keane at dictating the play/tempo. See games like this where Keane was our midfield general, with Scholes had lesser role.
The United way back then was more direct. CBs and fullbacks used midfielders less. see defenders played long and medium ball more. In Europe and big games, SAF restricted full back overlapping. Overlapping only was more freely allowed in PL games and when we needed to go gung-ho trailing goals. There are more space between midfield and the defense line. Our build up was simpler and used less passes. The name of the game is defense some, attack some. Possession was lesser of importance. Every time there was space upfront, the midfielder would try to pass it forward as fast as possible. Prefer a faster pace.
Wii all that in mind, Keane held big role in kept it ticking. Scholes was wasteful and not very different than Rooney with his cross field ball the right! Veron tried to get involved but messed up a lot also. I used this game due to people seemed to legendarize the Co92 into some Pep Barcelona team which they weren't. We attacked differently. In a bad day, we were not all that silky. The excitement were when thing ticking or we needed to go gung-ho when the result at stake. The thrilling of late, Fergie time goal, the comeback...
Now watch this game. Forward few years.
See how Carrick in the 2 CM, box to box role almost invisible all game! Scholes played a deeper role now. Scholes didn't bossed the game well for most part. Chelsea midfield with Lampard, Mikel, Makelele had the upper hand passing for most part of the game! Essien and Terry were very comfortable passing out from the back too. Chelsea defense line used the midfield more and way less long ball. The play is still direct but more passes is added to improve tempo controlling. The gap between defense line and midfield were closer and more space was close. Play at slow pace, but would more carefully take moment to attack swiftly. Mourinho did bring many tactical improvements to the PL. Not completely anti football like people often remembered by their hate.
About the FA Cup final, I said Scholes didn't boss it well because Scholes played into Mourinho's hand! First half, Chelsea locked the central area, forcing Scholes back playing long ball in behind Chelsea defense line, mostly to wings. Why? Rooney, Giggs can't hold up in the middle. Forcing the ball more to wing in behind the defense nullified Ronaldo's dribbling to cut in. Also that meant the option from wing would be crossing which Chelsea is expert dealing with. Makelele man mark Giggs, Rooney whoever dropped deep to start a run in the middle. In attack, Joe Cole and Wright Phillips cut in more to lured Scholes into running. The ultimate goal is to draining Scholes' stamina! Chelsea despite superior possession stats had the game in their control: Mourinho's style.
In second half, Scholes showed sign of fatigue. Mikel and Lampard had more room to operate, and overran us at times in the midfield. After Lampard drew yellow from Scholes. SAF had to put Scholes further up field and played double pivot of a Carrick & Fletcher, thus played an outright 4-3-3 with Giggs pulled to wing. Scholes was cut off the space to play his deep play making game, he had stamina to run around. Now Chelsea completely nullified our attack from middle. Our team game were killed. Our chances were all individual run and error from Chelsea.
Into extra time, SAF put Smith on for Fletcher and tried to reverse back to original 4411 formation. Carrick couldn't offer the same as Scholes before. Our chances were created by mistakes by an injured Robben. We tried to hold on into penalty and Chelsea struck the goal with Scholes & Carrick ball watching as Mikel Drogba Lampard struck through our center.
Last edited:
Watching the video is going to be difficult to sign a player like him. Someone like Verrati (unrealistic) or even Weigl are the ones who could replace them. The truth is that Carrick is not that player anymore, but still can contribute to the team this season.
For now, Schweisnteiger, Blind, Scheniderlin and TFM are decent players able to play as CDM.
This was put into sharp focus tonight, I know the argument of not replacing like for like always comes into it for some, but to me this type of CM is important in the modern game, especially for a team like United who face many teams that sit off us, you need that accurate metronome with the passing variety to unsettle their shape.
Imagine if we get back Danny Drinkwater for 30 mil
Rooney has shown tremendous passing, especially those difficult balls out to Valencia on the right. We should get Griezmann, put him in Rooney's place, then push Rooney back into Carrick's position to play as the deep-lying playmaker.
.
.
Are you actually serious?
I thought it was sarcasm at first. But reading to the end it seems he actually is!