F1 2021 Season

[Infordin]

You're right. Perez came 16th at Silverstone, so Red Bull has one of the worst cars, which proves just how much better Max is than Lewis.

A one-off race doesn’t prove anything, but 10 races is enough of a sample size to notice some patterns and make some conclusions.

1. Bottas is ahead of Perez in the standings
2. In races where both drivers finished, Bottas has finished ahead more often.

If Red Bull was really that much better, why is that?

It’s a fact that Verstappen is beating Perez by a significantly bigger margin than Hamilton is beating Bottas by. I rate Bottas and Perez on the same level. The inevitable conclusion you draw from that is obvious.

 

[F-Red]

It’s a fact that Verstappen is beating Perez by a significantly bigger margin than Hamilton is beating Bottas by. I rate Bottas and Perez on the same level. The inevitable conclusion you draw from that is obvious.

The conclusion is that Perez has been playing catch up on upgrades since the first race, there has never been a point in the season where they have the same car, a car which is new to him this season. In comparison to Mercedes where both cars are on equal on the deployment of upgrades.

It‘s a basic comparison to draw for most simple fans, but if all things were equal I think we would see Perez higher up. Especially given most of his challenges this season has been qualifying.

 

[Cheimoon]

The irony of course is that you can easily spot the bias in a Ferrari forum, while simultaneously being completely oblivious to the bias on a British forum like this.

I think you can cut out the references to 'British forum'. You can't generalize people like that, plus you don't actually know where most of the people you are discussing with are from. Also, I'm sure you have your own biases as well (same as me and everyone). And this is anyway an Irish forum, if you want to be technical about it.

 

[oates]

Perez is coping with going into a car that probably doesn't suit him very well, same situation as past Red Bull drivers and same as Ricciardo at Mclaren. So that probably explains some of it. Also Perez is a lot more aggressive than Bottas and it's led to mistakes that have cost him points.

But from all the races and all the qualis it's pretty clear there is very little to choose between the two teams on race and quali pace on the majority of tracks. The Mercedes is still the better and faster engine, although the gap has closed. The Red Bull still has the aero advantage it has always had, and so is faster through the technical parts of most tracks. Both cars have been very good on tyre wear.

Mercedes wanted to paint the picture that their car is inferior but it really isn't. The gap between the teams is more due to the performance of Max relative to Lewis than the performance of the cars.

Thing is it's not just Bottas finishing ahead of Perez, but clearly his car isn't getting the attention Verstappen's receives. Where the two are similar is in the number of mistakes the two make and the age difference is very apparent. Perez 31 has had two wins in his career, Verstappen at 23 with 15 wins, still a bit immature, needs to show more patience, has all the potential that Perez doesn't, at least anymore. Verstappen has gotten track positions from Hamilton by pushing his car into space Hamilton is in, Hamilton up to Silverstone has preferred to fight another day, protect the equipment. No longer it seems, Verstappen's mistake, and it was his, was to believe that Hamilton would carry on allowing Verstappen to believe he could bully for position. Hamilton had the space, Verstappen had left the door wide open after the dummy from Hamilton that saw Verstappen attempt blocking twice and it was the Red Bull rear offside wheel that made contact with the rear inside of Hamilton's. The only other way to interpret it would be because you don't understand racing. Verstappen had lost the position to bully, the boot was now on the other foot.

Quite frankly it has become an embarrassment purely of Horner's and Red Bull's making going public with this very obvious squealing like stuck pigs, no class. Not the done thing even if they were right, these things are discussed quietly, you don't try to embarrass the stewards or the FIA, you gain consensus by keeping it in the family and in the old days Bernie would have told you to get on with racing or pack it up and go home. At the end of the day another immature mistake from Verstappen who still thinks he can use karting strategies, he's still young and has all the potential in the world but he'll never achieve it by taking himself into the barriers. He's got the equipment now, let's see him win a championship and earn his spurs, he needs to stop trying to bully his way around the grey stuff.

 

[Lightbringer]

Quite frankly it has become an embarrassment purely of Horner's and Red Bull's making going public with this very obvious squealing like stuck pigs, no class. Not the done thing even if they were right, these things are discussed quietly, you don't try to embarrass the stewards or the FIA, you gain consensus by keeping it in the family and in the old days Bernie would have told you to get on with racing or pack it up and go home. At the end of the day another immature mistake from Verstappen who still thinks he can use karting strategies, he's still young and has all the potential in the world but he'll never achieve it by taking himself into the barriers. He's got the equipment now, let's see him win a championship and earn his spurs, he needs to stop trying to bully his way around the grey stuff.

Verstappen has 0 penalty points on his licence the last 3 years. Hamilton has 2 the last race and have taken out 3 Red Bulls (Albon x 2, VER x 1) the last 12 months. Enough said, perhaps Lewis should look in the mirror? Or perhaps you should fact check! Lewis was the only one making a mistake leading to a crash, which was confirmed by the stewards, anything else is just british bias nonsense. If Max had managed to escape the wall, Lewis would have retired on the first lap, who would have made the mistake then? Lewis was only incredibly lucky to be bailed out by the red flag and then treated lightly by the stewards.

 

[Frosty]

Quite frankly it has become an embarrassment purely of Horner's and Red Bull's making going public with this very obvious squealing like stuck pigs, no class. Not the done thing even if they were right, these things are discussed quietly, you don't try to embarrass the stewards or the FIA, you gain consensus by keeping it in the family and in the old days Bernie would have told you to get on with racing or pack it up and go home. At the end of the day another immature mistake from Verstappen who still thinks he can use karting strategies, he's still young and has all the potential in the world but he'll never achieve it by taking himself into the barriers. He's got the equipment now, let's see him win a championship and earn his spurs, he needs to stop trying to bully his way around the grey stuff.

I reckon his doubling down will lead to many more incidents this season, and him losing a load more points as a result.

Prost was the master of playng the percentages, finishing where he needed to in order to compete for Championships. Verstappen needs to learn when he should 'settle'' for second (or worse) in certain races. That's how he will win the title.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Verstappen has 0 penalty points on his licence the last 3 years. Hamilton has 2 the last race and have taken out 3 Red Bulls (Albon x 2, VER x 1) the last 12 months. Enough said, perhaps Lewis should look in the mirror? Or perhaps you should fact check! Lewis was the only one making a mistake leading to a crash, which was confirmed by the stewards, anything else is just british bias nonsense. If Max had managed to escape the wall, Lewis would have retired on the first lap, who would have made the mistake then? Lewis was only incredibly lucky to be bailed out by the red flag and then treated lightly by the stewards.

Not true. Max got 4 points in 2019.

https://f1statblog.co.uk/f1-penalty-points/

Perhaps you should fact check!?

 

[oates]

Verstappen has 0 penalty points on his licence the last 3 years. Hamilton has 2 the last race and have taken out 3 Red Bulls (Albon x 2, VER x 1) the last 12 months. Enough said, perhaps Lewis should look in the mirror? Or perhaps you should fact check!

I didn't say Hamilton had a perfect record but then again if you are going to compare the two drivers, you can't, Verstappen doesn't have the years or the successes to compare. Drive long enough and you'll have racing incidents, mistakes and accidents. Them's the facts, Albon and Verstappen to my mind don't have the experience. Alright, Hamiltopn got 2 points, I think that's a huge mistake and inexplainable unless either I'm wrong or something else has happened.

Sorry I'm not a fan boy, I support racing, appreciate different drivers but I don't excuse all of my boy's driving because I don't have one. Take the blinkers off occasionally.

 

[Lightbringer]

Not true. Max got 4 points in 2019.

https://f1statblog.co.uk/f1-penalty-points/

Perhaps you should fact check!?

I stand corrected, but Lewis has 8 points currently, while Max has 0 on his record. So the point still stands clearly.

 

[Frosty]

I honestly cannot believe this debate is still going on.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

I didn't say Hamilton had a perfect record but then again if you are going to compare the two drivers, you can't, Verstappen doesn't have the years or the successes to compare. Drive long enough and you'll have racing incidents, mistakes and accidents. Them's the facts, Albon and Verstappen to my mind don't have the experience. Alright, Hamiltopn got 2 points, I think that's a huge mistake and inexplainable unless either I'm wrong or something else has happened.

Sorry I'm not a fan boy, I support racing, appreciate different drivers but I don't excuse all of my boy's driving because I don't have one. Take the blinkers off occasionally.

If you look at the link in my post above, you'll see that cherry picking 2 years as a comparison is not representative. If you look further back, Max has more penalty points than Hamilton since 2015.

@Lightbringer

 

[Lightbringer]

I didn't say Hamilton had a perfect record but then again if you are going to compare the two drivers, you can't, Verstappen doesn't have the years or the successes to compare. Drive long enough and you'll have racing incidents, mistakes and accidents. Them's the facts, Albon and Verstappen to my mind don't have the experience. Alright, Hamiltopn got 2 points, I think that's a huge mistake and inexplainable unless either I'm wrong or something else has happened.

Sorry I'm not a fan boy, I support racing, appreciate different drivers but I don't excuse all of my boy's driving because I don't have one. Take the blinkers off occasionally.

During the last 2 years Hamilton has got 15 penalty points on his license, and Verstappens got 4. So how long they have raced is irrelevant to what has happened the past 2 years.

 

[oates]

I stand corrected, but Lewis has 8 points currently, while Max has 0 on his record. So the point still stands clearly.

Hamilton's points come from the incident at Silverstone and various pit lane issues. Verstappen's apart from ignoring blue flags I think are all driving incidents.

 

[Lightbringer]

If you look at the link in my post above, you'll see that cherry picking 3 years as a comparison is not representative. If you look further back, Max has more penalty points than Hamilton since 2015.

@Lightbringer

Yeah, and why? Because Max tried to will his inferior car into podiums while Hamilton was cruising in his mighty Mercedes up front. We all said Lewis would start making mistakes as soon as his car advantage went away, and thats exactly what has happened. Its easy being Mr.clean with a car thats 1 second faster per lap than the opposition and with an engine advantage allowing you to cruise through overtakes without a problem. Its far more difficult when you actually have to race someone as been proven this season.

Admittedly Verstappen has made some terrible rookie errors during his teen years, but Lewis was the crash guru himself back in the day 2010-11 aprox with Felipe Massa when Lewis once again did not have a superior car. The only time period where Lewis has been driving safe is when he has had the most dominant car in F1 history and faced only mediocre drivers in Vettel and an over the hill Raikkonen. Its just logic that more indicents happen when you have to push hard!

Whatever happened in the past does not change the fact that Lewis was in the wrong at Silverstone, and his fans try to deflect that by talking about what Max has done years ago.

 

[oates]

If you look at the link in my post above, you'll see that cherry picking 2 years as a comparison is not representative. If you look further back, Max has more penalty points than Hamilton since 2015.

@Lightbringer

I seem to recall Verstappen leading the table in points in 2015 plus one other year.

Interesting that now Verstappen has the quicker car he has zero points.

 

[Lightbringer]

I seem to recall Verstappen leading the table in points in 2015 plus one other year.

Interesting that now Verstappen has the quicker car he has zero points.

Exactly, thats why Hamilton has had so few incidents in the Mercedes dominated hybrid era. If you lead up front without competition all the time, there is no reason to get any penalty points at all since you are not racing anyone. And also dont need to push. Lewis could have conceded 5 places at the start of every race and still won the titles, he could easily avoid any confrontations as he knew he could recover the position later with the dominant car Merc had.

Of course Verstappen will have less incidents now when he qualifies on the front row, all he needs to do is ace to start and take off. Then maybe race Hamilton and Bottas who are both normally clean racers. In previous seasons he would be starting from mid pack and trying to wrestle an inferior car up the grid and doing so while being a youngster, he was not always smart about that obviously and some incidents back in 4-5 years ago were embarrassing.

 

[oates]

Exactly, thats why Hamilton has had so few incidents in the Mercedes dominated hybrid era. If you lead up front without competition all the time, there is no reason to get any penalty points at all since you are not racing anyone. And also dont need to push.

Of course Verstappen will have less incidents now when he qualifies on the front row, all he needs to do is ace to start and take off. Then maybe race Hamilton and Bottas who is both normally clean racers. In previous seasons he would be starting from mid pack and trying to wrestle an inferior car up the grid and doing so while being a youngster, he was not always smart about that obvously.

I think that's fair enough, we have to see whether Red Bull car 1 continues to be superior but as you've mentioned racing we have to accept that's what we pay to watch.

Verstappen has to change his mindset, he has to protect the car and he didn't do that at Silverstone. Hamilton got a penalty, Verstappen's was that he went into the barriers. If you've a car inside you going into Copse it's not a great idea to have a collision, especially while carrying more speed don't you think?

Anyway, Horner is damaging the brand, he'll not get his way because he's wrong to have done this so publicly and his driver has already paid the price.

 

[Lightbringer]

Because it is widely acknowledged that the Red Bull has been the fastest car this season. They have not been in equal machinery.

You could make an argument for Max being on the same level as Hamilton, i would disagree but you could make that argument without being laughed at.

But to say Max is a better driver is not backed up by any evidence.

Red Bull has had the quickest car in Q except Silverstone. Red Bull has been quicker at 2 street races and the 2 austria races. Other than that Merc has had the better race pace, which is what counts.

Even Toto Wolff said in Austria it was the first time in 8 years Merc lacked race pace to win, which is correct. Max aced a few starts and kept Lewis behind for a good while before being overtaken, if Lewis had taken those starts he would have won those races with 20 seconds.

 

[Lightbringer]

I think that's fair enough, we have to see whether Red Bull car 1 continues to be superior but as you've mentioned racing we have to accept that's what we pay to watch.

Verstappen has to change his mindset, he has to protect the car and he didn't do that at Silverstone. Hamilton got a penalty, Verstappen's was that he went into the barriers. If you've a car inside you going into Copse it's not a great idea to have a collision, especially while carrying more speed don't you think?

Anyway, Horner is damaging the brand, he'll not get his way because he's wrong to have done this so publicly and his driver has already paid the price.

I think Max did not expect Lewis to make a mistake like that, Lewis usually dont do that. And then Max probably never considered that Lewis could run into him damaging both cars so they would have to retire, but as the race were red flagged Lewis could get free repairs and still win. Lewis also relied on not getting a drive through penalty to be able to make the top 5. I dont think Verstappen had considered that every one of these option as it was very unlikely for all of it to happen that way. The irony is that now he has even less margin and has to race Lewis hard to even be in the lead anymore.

Verstappen still needs to race, he does not have a big pace advantage if any at all as its track based which car is better. If he starts giving up position to play it safe Lewis could catch up easily.

I dont think the incident was that big of a deal, if the red flag had not came out, both Lewis and Max would have had 0 points from the race, which I think would have been completely fair considering what happened. If that would have been the case, I doubt there would have been nearly as much drama afterwards.

 

[oates]

I think Max did not expect Lewis to make a mistake like that, Lewis usually dont do that. And then Max probably never considered that Lewis could run into him damaging both cars so they would have to retire, but as the race were red flagged Lewis could get free repairs and still win. Lewis also relied on not getting a drive through penalty to be able to make the top 5. I dont think Verstappen had considered that every one of these option as it was very unlikely for all of it to happen that way. The irony is that now he has even less margin and has to race Lewis hard to even be in the lead anymore.

Verstappen still needs to race, he does not have a big pace advantage if any at all as its track based which car is better. If he starts giving up position to play it safe Lewis could catch up.

Looking at the result it was no mistake, looking at the incident, likewise. You can go back and forth on this but Hamilton took the door being open as his opportunity, Verstappen couldn't do anything about it other than to believe he could bully Hamilton off track or brake even harder. Instead Hamilton drew alongside with his front wing in full view, Hamilton braked harder to take the apex but Verstappen carried more speed and made contact, the Mercedes was never going to not be there to come into contact with. You can't in all honesty continue to believe it wasn't Verstappens mistake. OK you can but you're only kidding yourself. Did Verstappen believe for one monent going into Copse that he'd come off worse? No, he didn't expect to hit that barrier at 51G.

Let's get it straight and stop posturing, I'm no fan of Hamilton the personality. His skill and record we have to admire. The incident and end result when you really think about wasn't Hamilton's mistake, he was racing.

 

[Lightbringer]

Looking at the result it was no mistake, looking at the incident, likewise. You can go back and forth on this but Hamilton took the door being open as his opportunity, Verstappen couldn't do anything about it other than to believe he could bully Hamilton off track or brake even harder. Instead Hamilton drew alongside with his front wing in full view, Hamilton braked harder to take the apex but Verstappen carried more speed and made contact, the Mercedes was never going to not be there to come into contact with. You can't in all honesty continue to believe it wasn't Verstappens mistake. OK you can but you're only kidding yourself. Did Verstappen believe for one monent going into Copse that he'd come off worse? No, he didn't expect to hit that barrier at 51G.

Let's get it straight and stop posturing, I'm no fan of Hamilton the personality. His skill and record we have to admire. The incident and end result when you really think about wasn't Hamilton's mistake, he was racing.

Lewis was never fully alongside, thats why the stewards deemed he was guilty. the car behind is responsible for making a safe overtake. Max were entitled to the route he took as he was in the lead. Lewis was never making the apex, he was going too quick. The only way Lewis would come out ahead was if either he ran into Max, or Max simply backed off to be nice about it. I have not seen anyone say it was Verstappens mistake, and neither did the stewards, but obviously you have a different view of things.

 

[oates]

Lewis was never fully alongside, thats why the stewards deemed he was guilty. the car behind is responsible for making a safe overtake. Max were entitled to the route he took as he was in the lead. Lewis was never making the apex, he was going too quick. The only way Lewis would come out ahead was if either he ran into Max, or Max simply backed off to be nice about it. I have not seen anyone say it was Verstappens mistake, and neither did the stewards, but obviously you have a different view of things.

Obviously there is no talking over this with some people. There is a shot where Hamilton's front wing is okay, almost alongside, it wasn't ahead, it wasn't well behind, one wing was slightly ahead, one was slightly back but they overlapped, if you haven't seen that shot then you've not examined the footage to any extent to be able to discuss the incident. Verstappen knew, had sight of Hamilton being on his inside going into the corner, if he doesn't leave room, then with the outcome Verstappen has made the mistake, which he did.

The Stewards were concerned in the moment for Verstappen, if Hamilton had solely caused the accident then Hamilton would have been Black Flagged. It was called a Racing Incident and Hamilton got a penalty, Verstappen another DNF.

If you are going to decide who made a mistake you look at the intention and the end result, all else is whining.

 

[Eendracht maakt macht]

Because it is widely acknowledged that the Red Bull has been the fastest car this season. They have not been in equal machinery.

You could make an argument for Max being on the same level as Hamilton, i would disagree but you could make that argument without being laughed at.

But to say Max is a better driver is not backed up by any evidence.

But if they were in equal machinery it is not that outlandish to think Verstappen would be faster. I don’t know if he will be faster but it’s not a laughable opinion at all.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Yeah, and why? Because Max tried to will his inferior car into podiums while Hamilton was cruising in his mighty Mercedes up front. We all said Lewis would start making mistakes as soon as his car advantage went away, and thats exactly what has happened. Its easy being Mr.clean with a car thats 1 second faster per lap than the opposition and with an engine advantage allowing you to cruise through overtakes without a problem. Its far more difficult when you actually have to race someone as been proven this season.

Admittedly Verstappen has made some terrible rookie errors during his teen years, but Lewis was the crash guru himself back in the day 2010-11 aprox with Felipe Massa when Lewis once again did not have a superior car. The only time period where Lewis has been driving safe is when he has had the most dominant car in F1 history and faced only mediocre drivers in Vettel and an over the hill Raikkonen. Its just logic that more indicents happen when you have to push hard!

Whatever happened in the past does not change the fact that Lewis was in the wrong at Silverstone, and his fans try to deflect that by talking about what Max has done years ago.

Why? Because Max is an over aggressive driver who weaves around dangerously. Also forces other drivers to backout or crash. I.e. with Raikonnen, Vettel, Hamilton. We've been over this in the thread many times.

Both Lewis and Max were in the wrong at the Silverstone incident. That's why the FIA ruled it was predominantly Lewis's fault and not solely his fault.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

But if they were in equal machinery it is not that outlandish to think Verstappen would be faster. I don’t know if he will be faster but it’s not a laughable opinion at all.

As I said, it is not backed up by any evidence. In fact the evidence points to the opposite.

 

[Lightbringer]

But from all the races and all the qualis it's pretty clear there is very little to choose between the two teams on race and quali pace on the majority of tracks. The Mercedes is still the better and faster engine, although the gap has closed. The Red Bull still has the aero advantage it has always had, and so is faster through the technical parts of most tracks. Both cars have been very good on tyre wear.

Mercedes wanted to paint the picture that their car is inferior but it really isn't. The gap between the teams is more due to the performance of Max relative to Lewis than the performance of the cars.

Most fair and correct post of the month.

 

[ArjenIsM3]

Why? Because Max is an over aggressive driver who weaves around dangerously. Also forces other drivers to backout or crash. I.e. with Raikonnen, Vettel, Hamilton. We've been over this in the thread many times.

Both Lewis and Max were in the wrong at the Silverstone incident. That's why the FIA ruled it was predominantly Lewis's fault and not solely his fault.

You keep saying this and it's quite hilarious when you at the same time mention an incident where Hamilton was the overly aggressive one who went into a corner too fast on an unviable inside line causing him to miss the apex and hit the rear of the car on the racing line ahead and sent said car flying into the wall. And yes, Hamilton was predominantly at fault. Not Max. They're not equally at fault though the massive defence of Hamilton and sometimes even blatant blaming of Max would make it seem otherwise.

 

[Wicked_Badger]

Bonkers some of this arguing.

Both sides & sets of fans need to let it go now & get on with the championship. Shit happens, it’s racing.

Let’s enjoy two top teams with two extremely talented and well matched drivers battle it out for another 13 races. There will be ups and downs for both over that time.

Hopefully they can crack on and deliver similarly to how they have already, as it could turn into one of the all time greatest seasons.

 

[Wicked_Badger]

I think Max did not expect Lewis to make a mistake like that, Lewis usually dont do that. And then Max probably never considered that Lewis could run into him damaging both cars so they would have to retire, but as the race were red flagged Lewis could get free repairs and still win. Lewis also relied on not getting a drive through penalty to be able to make the top 5. I dont think Verstappen had considered that every one of these option as it was very unlikely for all of it to happen that way. The irony is that now he has even less margin and has to race Lewis hard to even be in the lead anymore.

Verstappen still needs to race, he does not have a big pace advantage if any at all as its track based which car is better. If he starts giving up position to play it safe Lewis could catch up easily.

I dont think the incident was that big of a deal, if the red flag had not came out, both Lewis and Max would have had 0 points from the race, which I think would have been completely fair considering what happened. If that would have been the case, I doubt there would have been nearly as much drama afterwards.

I think that’s one of the main points people are making about the incident - Max should be aware of putting his car in risky situations given the position he held at the start of that race. It’s something Hamilton has learned and used over the last few years to great effect.

He had far more to lose (and did so) going wheel to wheel racing than Hamilton did.

Fast forward a few years and I reckon he gets out of it and retakes the lead anyway at some point. Or at worst, finishes 2nd.

 

[Lightbringer]

I think that’s one of the main points people are making about the incident - Max should be aware of putting his car in risky situations given the position he held at the start of that race. It’s something Hamilton has learned and used over the last few years to great effect.

He had far more to lose (and did so) going wheel to wheel racing than Hamilton did.

Fast forward a few years and I reckon he gets out of it and retakes the lead anyway at some point. Or at worst, finishes 2nd.

This is utterly false and a myth Hamilton fans throw around like a folklore. You can not compare this championship battle with Hamiltons most dominant car era in F1 history. This is a evenly matched car championship.

Lewis had the luxury of having a such a dominant car, he could pick his battles and still win the title with a landslide, Max does not have that luxury, which makes the comparison useless. Lewis could let a few cars pass if he wanted
to and play it safe, he was guaranteed the title anwyays. Max can not afford to give Lewis free points by giving him position with 13 races to go with the cars pretty even matched and Merc that has won the development race for 8 straight season. Its not comparable at all.

In Lewis case every time he has been pushed to the limit he has started making mistakes like running into Albon twice and now this incidicent etc. It was Lewis mistake and he was deemed guilty, it was Lewis who was desperate to win the race in the first lap. What if Max is just spun around and no red flag comes out? Lewis retires on the first lap while Max can take points. By going for a banzai move that was not there Lewis took just as much of a risk. Just because he is trailing a few points in the standings does not mean he has nothing to lose, thats also a bizarre argument. If it goes the other way around Lewis would have pretty much lost the title battle.

Regarding re-taking the lead, how could he do that without risk? Overtaking Lewis is never going to be risk free, especially if you have to weigh in that Lewis like in this case can make a mistake and run into Max - with that in mind every battle with Lewis is a risk and should be avoided, it does not work like that. With Mercs pace Bottas might even have caught up to Verstappen had he let Lewis by, and in that case he would have to concede position to Bottas as well as "Bottas has even less to lose".

I will change my mind when Lewis start letting Max pass on a regular basis in a tight championship like this years. They went touching wheels at a start before as Lewis refused to yield.

 

[oates]

I think that’s one of the main points people are making about the incident - Max should be aware of putting his car in risky situations given the position he held at the start of that race. It’s something Hamilton has learned and used over the last few years to great effect.

He had far more to lose (and did so) going wheel to wheel racing than Hamilton did.

Fast forward a few years and I reckon he gets out of it and retakes the lead anyway at some point. Or at worst, finishes 2nd.

I think people here who are fans of one or the other driver need to recognise what racing in F1 is about and that's not always easy considering some of the processions we watch a lot of weekends.

Also that sometimes when it suits Team Principles their views are different as evidenced by Christian Horner talking after the Spanish GP

apologies for the size of photo, not done for emphasis.

 

[Infordin]

Mercedes wanted to paint the picture that their car is inferior but it really isn't. The gap between the teams is more due to the performance of Max relative to Lewis than the performance of the cars.

Yeah.

I would love nothing more than to see Max and Lewis in equal cars before Lewis retires but unfortunately that looks like a mere fantasy at this point.

Max is relentlessly fast and doesn’t have these random off weekends like Lewis had in Monaco. He’s fast around every circuit and in every condition.

Lewis is a more sensitive driver and when the tyres aren’t in the right window or the setup isn’t ideal he’s slow.

 

[pauldyson1uk]

The irony of course is that you can easily spot the bias in a Ferrari forum, while simultaneously being completely oblivious to the bias on a British forum like this.

It's a British fourm what do you expect ?
You saying the Ferrari's form is unbiased is quite frankly a joke.
I presume you think Iam biased, I don't know?
Iam a Lewis fan, I don't deny that, I don't dislike Max, I give him plenty of praze, I give Lewis plenty of stick also.
Why you keep on with the baiting,Iam not sure.
We all know you love Max hate Lewis, Msx is God, Lewis is the devil, it's not that cut and dried for me. Both drivers have good and bad points, I 100% disagree that Max is the better driver,he will be but he is not yet.

 

[pauldyson1uk]

There was a thread on Reddit which took note of every significant opinion on the Hamilton vs Verstappen incident, namely both current and ex-drivers.

- The majority (60%) thought it was Hamilton’s fault.
- About 40% of people called it a racing incident
- Nobody of any relevance blamed solely Verstappen

And yet you go on Redcafe, Autosport, or any other British forum, and you have a bunch of Brits blaming Verstappen, which is just delusional.

No where on here has said Max was sole to blame.
Most called it a racing incident ,with Lewis mainly to blame.
I my opinion 60/40 Lewis, penalty was about right, maybe airing on the soft side.
But its done, its history, its not changing.
This has been 8 days now, give it a rest, you keep making the same point over and over again.

 

[Rooney1987]

Why is this so laughable?

To suggest an all time great, current world champion and someone who has beaten Max in races this year is not capable of beating Verstappen in equal machinery, is a laughable opinion.

In my opinion I think Max has outperformed Lewis so far this season, we can argue about the speed of the car but I think Max has been more impressive in the hand full of races. Lewis is still world class and has put in a few world class performances this year so to suggest he isn't capable of beating any other driver is ridiculous. It's a embarrassing opinion.

 

[Cheimoon]

To suggest an all time great, current world champion and someone who has beaten Max in races this year is not capable of beating Verstappen in equal machinery, is a laughable opinion.

In my opinion I think Max has outperformed Lewis so far this season, we can argue about the speed of the car but I think Max has been more impressive in the hand full of races. Lewis is still world class and has put in a few world class performances this year so to suggest he isn't capable of beating any other driver is ridiculous. It's a embarrassing opinion.

They're also not in equal machinery and at opposite ends of their careers. These comparisons are really hard in F1, and people should probably realize that more when arguing one way or another (i.e., be a bit less assured in their opinions).

 

[F-Red]

An interesting interview recently with the former boss of Lotus, Matthew Carter, who basically said Horner's calculation of £1.3m is grossly overstated, and believes he's throwing in sunk costs of design and development, and other operational costs into the figure. When he was the Lotus boss, he was selling rolling chassis F1 cars (essentially everything apart from the engine) for £250k and the only way that Horner could get to that quoted figure would be by throwing in everything to make the car, even though there's costs already accrued to bring the car to the grid.

Ironically he called out both RB and Mercedes that they were constantly throwing away parts that didn't work after FP1/FP2 at circuits when that were far greater than the cost of the accident. He feels the number is a bit more of a push or statement against the cost cap, than anything to use against other teams.

 

[pauldyson1uk]

An interesting interview recently with the former boss of Lotus, Matthew Carter, who basically said Horner's calculation of £1.3m is grossly overstated, and believes he's throwing in sunk costs of design and development, and other operational costs into the figure. When he was the Lotus boss, he was selling rolling chasis F1 cars (essentially everything apart from the engine) £250k and the only way that Horner could get to that quoted figure would be by throwing in everything to make the car, even though there's costs already accrued to bring the car to the grid.

Ironically he called out both RB and Mercedes that they were constantly throwing away parts that didn't work after FP1/FP2 at circuits when that were far greater than the cost of the accident. He feels the number is a bit more of a push or statement against the cost cap, than anything to use against other teams.

Would be interested to see the itemised bill, but that's not going to happen is it.

 

[Infordin]

To suggest an all time great, current world champion and someone who has beaten Max in races this year is not capable of beating Verstappen in equal machinery, is a laughable opinion.

In my opinion I think Max has outperformed Lewis so far this season, we can argue about the speed of the car but I think Max has been more impressive in the hand full of races. Lewis is still world class and has put in a few world class performances this year so to suggest he isn't capable of beating any other driver is ridiculous. It's a embarrassing opinion.

His punt at Silverstone was the hallmark of an inferior driver trying to stand up against a superior one.

Reminded me of Rosberg hitting Hamilton at Spa 2014 in an attempt to be “tough”.

Verstappen is the best driver in the world nowadays and everyone can see it apart from the Brits who are still in the denial stage.

 

[Rooney1987]

His punt at Silverstone was the hallmark of an inferior driver trying to stand up against a superior one.

Reminded me of Rosberg hitting Hamilton at Spa 2014 in an attempt to be “tough”.

Verstappen is the best driver in the world nowadays and everyone can see it apart from the Brits who are still in the denial stage.

Putting the trolling from the first 2 lines to one side, if you can read you'll see in my post admitting to Max outperforming Lewis. I'd even agree he is the form driver right now. He is world class I don't think anyone says otherwise. No one is in denial expect you and your lack of respect for Lewis by saying he isn't capable of beating Max.