True. It's the public nature of the PR campaign which smacks of desperation to me.
F1 2021 Season
- Thread starter pauldyson1uk
- Start date
The Red Bull has been the fastest car all season and it continues to be the fastest car.
Why is this so laughable?
The only response I’ve gotten so far is laughing emojis. Nobody has actually made a coherent argument yet.
2021 is the first time we’ve seen Max and Lewis in the same car and Max has been levels above. The fact that he’s still ahead in the championship despite retiring from 2/10 races says it all.
Only casually following F1 but has the red bull not been faster this season? Especially down the straights.
Even if the cars are the same this season your statement is outlandish as it's based off a small sample set of races and because you don't know how a younger Lewis or a more aggressive Lewis would match up. In fact I think we may start seeing Lewis be more aggressive because while risky Max stands to lose out more as we saw last race.
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Red Bull faster in Bahrain, Monaco, Baku, and the two Austria races
Mercedes faster in Imola, Portugal, Spain, France and Britain.
Overall the cars have been equal. Max is better than Lewis though.
It can't bounce up and down randomly every other race like that. And wasn't the Red Bull clearly quicker in the sprint race?
It's hard to avoid the impression that you're suiting your arguments to your conclusion. (Beyond the extent to which everybody does that.) Also, argument from authority doesn't work the way you seem to think it does. All these authorities you're dismissing also explained their opinions, so you'll have to engage with that rather than saying each time you don't care.
There was a thread on Reddit which took note of every significant opinion on the Hamilton vs Verstappen incident, namely both current and ex-drivers.
- The majority (60%) thought it was Hamilton’s fault.
- About 40% of people called it a racing incident
- Nobody of any relevance blamed solely Verstappen
And yet you go on Redcafe, Autosport, or any other British forum, and you have a bunch of Brits blaming Verstappen, which is just delusional.
Because it is widely acknowledged that the Red Bull has been the fastest car this season. They have not been in equal machinery.
You could make an argument for Max being on the same level as Hamilton, i would disagree but you could make that argument without being laughed at.
But to say Max is a better driver is not backed up by any evidence.
The irony of course is that you can easily spot the bias in a Ferrari forum, while simultaneously being completely oblivious to the bias on a British forum like this.unbiased
That’s one way to cope with the fact that Max has largely outclassed Lewis this season.
Tell me, if Red Bull is so superior, then why has Bottas outperformed Perez by every metric this season?
I assume you are looking at qualifying times. The evidence across practice, sprint race and the actual races show the Red Bull is the faster car. As is widely accepted by anyone with any credibility in the sport of F1.
Guess what, Mercedes were only faster in those races because they were driven by the better driver, 7 time WC Hamilton.
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I haven’t seen anyone in here, although I may have missed it, solely blame max. Just that it was a racing incident both could have done more to avoid.
I will repeat what I asked before:
Tell me, if Red Bull is so superior, then why has Bottas outperformed Perez by every metric this season?
Can you verify any of this?
You keep going on about 'nobody of any relevance blamed solely Verstappen' when no-one here either is making that argument. This unverified info you're referring too still paints a picture of it not being clear cut. The stewards said Hamilton was 'predominantly to blame', ego Max was partially to blame, but less so.
You really need to move on.
You're right. Perez came 16th at Silverstone, so Red Bull has one of the worst cars, which proves just how much better Max is than Lewis.
A one-off race doesn’t prove anything, but 10 races is enough of a sample size to notice some patterns and make some conclusions.
1. Bottas is ahead of Perez in the standings
2. In races where both drivers finished, Bottas has finished ahead more often.
If Red Bull was really that much better, why is that?
It’s a fact that Verstappen is beating Perez by a significantly bigger margin than Hamilton is beating Bottas by. I rate Bottas and Perez on the same level. The inevitable conclusion you draw from that is obvious.
The conclusion is that Perez has been playing catch up on upgrades since the first race, there has never been a point in the season where they have the same car, a car which is new to him this season. In comparison to Mercedes where both cars are on equal on the deployment of upgrades.
It‘s a basic comparison to draw for most simple fans, but if all things were equal I think we would see Perez higher up. Especially given most of his challenges this season has been qualifying.
I think you can cut out the references to 'British forum'. You can't generalize people like that, plus you don't actually know where most of the people you are discussing with are from. Also, I'm sure you have your own biases as well (same as me and everyone). And this is anyway an Irish forum, if you want to be technical about it.
Thing is it's not just Bottas finishing ahead of Perez, but clearly his car isn't getting the attention Verstappen's receives. Where the two are similar is in the number of mistakes the two make and the age difference is very apparent. Perez 31 has had two wins in his career, Verstappen at 23 with 15 wins, still a bit immature, needs to show more patience, has all the potential that Perez doesn't, at least anymore. Verstappen has gotten track positions from Hamilton by pushing his car into space Hamilton is in, Hamilton up to Silverstone has preferred to fight another day, protect the equipment. No longer it seems, Verstappen's mistake, and it was his, was to believe that Hamilton would carry on allowing Verstappen to believe he could bully for position. Hamilton had the space, Verstappen had left the door wide open after the dummy from Hamilton that saw Verstappen attempt blocking twice and it was the Red Bull rear offside wheel that made contact with the rear inside of Hamilton's. The only other way to interpret it would be because you don't understand racing. Verstappen had lost the position to bully, the boot was now on the other foot.
Quite frankly it has become an embarrassment purely of Horner's and Red Bull's making going public with this very obvious squealing like stuck pigs, no class. Not the done thing even if they were right, these things are discussed quietly, you don't try to embarrass the stewards or the FIA, you gain consensus by keeping it in the family and in the old days Bernie would have told you to get on with racing or pack it up and go home. At the end of the day another immature mistake from Verstappen who still thinks he can use karting strategies, he's still young and has all the potential in the world but he'll never achieve it by taking himself into the barriers. He's got the equipment now, let's see him win a championship and earn his spurs, he needs to stop trying to bully his way around the grey stuff.
Verstappen has 0 penalty points on his licence the last 3 years. Hamilton has 2 the last race and have taken out 3 Red Bulls (Albon x 2, VER x 1) the last 12 months. Enough said, perhaps Lewis should look in the mirror? Or perhaps you should fact check! Lewis was the only one making a mistake leading to a crash, which was confirmed by the stewards, anything else is just british bias nonsense. If Max had managed to escape the wall, Lewis would have retired on the first lap, who would have made the mistake then? Lewis was only incredibly lucky to be bailed out by the red flag and then treated lightly by the stewards.
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I reckon his doubling down will lead to many more incidents this season, and him losing a load more points as a result.
Prost was the master of playng the percentages, finishing where he needed to in order to compete for Championships. Verstappen needs to learn when he should 'settle'' for second (or worse) in certain races. That's how he will win the title.
Not true. Max got 4 points in 2019.
https://f1statblog.co.uk/f1-penalty-points/
Perhaps you should fact check!?
I didn't say Hamilton had a perfect record but then again if you are going to compare the two drivers, you can't, Verstappen doesn't have the years or the successes to compare. Drive long enough and you'll have racing incidents, mistakes and accidents. Them's the facts, Albon and Verstappen to my mind don't have the experience. Alright, Hamiltopn got 2 points, I think that's a huge mistake and inexplainable unless either I'm wrong or something else has happened.
Sorry I'm not a fan boy, I support racing, appreciate different drivers but I don't excuse all of my boy's driving because I don't have one. Take the blinkers off occasionally.
I stand corrected, but Lewis has 8 points currently, while Max has 0 on his record. So the point still stands clearly.
I honestly cannot believe this debate is still going on.
If you look at the link in my post above, you'll see that cherry picking 2 years as a comparison is not representative. If you look further back, Max has more penalty points than Hamilton since 2015.
@Lightbringer
During the last 2 years Hamilton has got 15 penalty points on his license, and Verstappens got 4. So how long they have raced is irrelevant to what has happened the past 2 years.
Hamilton's points come from the incident at Silverstone and various pit lane issues. Verstappen's apart from ignoring blue flags I think are all driving incidents.
Yeah, and why? Because Max tried to will his inferior car into podiums while Hamilton was cruising in his mighty Mercedes up front. We all said Lewis would start making mistakes as soon as his car advantage went away, and thats exactly what has happened. Its easy being Mr.clean with a car thats 1 second faster per lap than the opposition and with an engine advantage allowing you to cruise through overtakes without a problem. Its far more difficult when you actually have to race someone as been proven this season.
Admittedly Verstappen has made some terrible rookie errors during his teen years, but Lewis was the crash guru himself back in the day 2010-11 aprox with Felipe Massa when Lewis once again did not have a superior car. The only time period where Lewis has been driving safe is when he has had the most dominant car in F1 history and faced only mediocre drivers in Vettel and an over the hill Raikkonen. Its just logic that more indicents happen when you have to push hard!
Whatever happened in the past does not change the fact that Lewis was in the wrong at Silverstone, and his fans try to deflect that by talking about what Max has done years ago.
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I seem to recall Verstappen leading the table in points in 2015 plus one other year.
Interesting that now Verstappen has the quicker car he has zero points.
Exactly, thats why Hamilton has had so few incidents in the Mercedes dominated hybrid era. If you lead up front without competition all the time, there is no reason to get any penalty points at all since you are not racing anyone. And also dont need to push. Lewis could have conceded 5 places at the start of every race and still won the titles, he could easily avoid any confrontations as he knew he could recover the position later with the dominant car Merc had.
Of course Verstappen will have less incidents now when he qualifies on the front row, all he needs to do is ace to start and take off. Then maybe race Hamilton and Bottas who are both normally clean racers. In previous seasons he would be starting from mid pack and trying to wrestle an inferior car up the grid and doing so while being a youngster, he was not always smart about that obviously and some incidents back in 4-5 years ago were embarrassing.
I think that's fair enough, we have to see whether Red Bull car 1 continues to be superior but as you've mentioned racing we have to accept that's what we pay to watch.
Verstappen has to change his mindset, he has to protect the car and he didn't do that at Silverstone. Hamilton got a penalty, Verstappen's was that he went into the barriers. If you've a car inside you going into Copse it's not a great idea to have a collision, especially while carrying more speed don't you think?
Anyway, Horner is damaging the brand, he'll not get his way because he's wrong to have done this so publicly and his driver has already paid the price.
Red Bull has had the quickest car in Q except Silverstone. Red Bull has been quicker at 2 street races and the 2 austria races. Other than that Merc has had the better race pace, which is what counts.
Even Toto Wolff said in Austria it was the first time in 8 years Merc lacked race pace to win, which is correct. Max aced a few starts and kept Lewis behind for a good while before being overtaken, if Lewis had taken those starts he would have won those races with 20 seconds.
I think Max did not expect Lewis to make a mistake like that, Lewis usually dont do that. And then Max probably never considered that Lewis could run into him damaging both cars so they would have to retire, but as the race were red flagged Lewis could get free repairs and still win. Lewis also relied on not getting a drive through penalty to be able to make the top 5. I dont think Verstappen had considered that every one of these option as it was very unlikely for all of it to happen that way. The irony is that now he has even less margin and has to race Lewis hard to even be in the lead anymore.
Verstappen still needs to race, he does not have a big pace advantage if any at all as its track based which car is better. If he starts giving up position to play it safe Lewis could catch up easily.
I dont think the incident was that big of a deal, if the red flag had not came out, both Lewis and Max would have had 0 points from the race, which I think would have been completely fair considering what happened. If that would have been the case, I doubt there would have been nearly as much drama afterwards.
Looking at the result it was no mistake, looking at the incident, likewise. You can go back and forth on this but Hamilton took the door being open as his opportunity, Verstappen couldn't do anything about it other than to believe he could bully Hamilton off track or brake even harder. Instead Hamilton drew alongside with his front wing in full view, Hamilton braked harder to take the apex but Verstappen carried more speed and made contact, the Mercedes was never going to not be there to come into contact with. You can't in all honesty continue to believe it wasn't Verstappens mistake. OK you can but you're only kidding yourself. Did Verstappen believe for one monent going into Copse that he'd come off worse? No, he didn't expect to hit that barrier at 51G.
Let's get it straight and stop posturing, I'm no fan of Hamilton the personality. His skill and record we have to admire. The incident and end result when you really think about wasn't Hamilton's mistake, he was racing.
Lewis was never fully alongside, thats why the stewards deemed he was guilty. the car behind is responsible for making a safe overtake. Max were entitled to the route he took as he was in the lead. Lewis was never making the apex, he was going too quick. The only way Lewis would come out ahead was if either he ran into Max, or Max simply backed off to be nice about it. I have not seen anyone say it was Verstappens mistake, and neither did the stewards, but obviously you have a different view of things.
Obviously there is no talking over this with some people. There is a shot where Hamilton's front wing is okay, almost alongside, it wasn't ahead, it wasn't well behind, one wing was slightly ahead, one was slightly back but they overlapped, if you haven't seen that shot then you've not examined the footage to any extent to be able to discuss the incident. Verstappen knew, had sight of Hamilton being on his inside going into the corner, if he doesn't leave room, then with the outcome Verstappen has made the mistake, which he did.
The Stewards were concerned in the moment for Verstappen, if Hamilton had solely caused the accident then Hamilton would have been Black Flagged. It was called a Racing Incident and Hamilton got a penalty, Verstappen another DNF.
If you are going to decide who made a mistake you look at the intention and the end result, all else is whining.
But if they were in equal machinery it is not that outlandish to think Verstappen would be faster. I don’t know if he will be faster but it’s not a laughable opinion at all.