F1 2021 Season

Fluctuation0161 said:
You also ignore the multiple times Hamilton has had to back out of moves with Max because Max is dangerous. E.g. as recently as May 2021, Spain.
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Lewis Hamilton's most famous overtake of his career:

he considers this his best overtake in his own opinion:



Is this bad racecraft? And if it is, why does Hamilton of all people consider it to be the best overtake of his career?

There was nothing wrong with Verstappen's move in Spain. He made the apex, didn't run wide, and was ahead on corner exit.

Comparing it to Silverstone, where Hamilton clips Raikkonen from behind, is just a complete fallacy.
 
Infordin said:
Why do Hamilton fans have such a persecution complex?
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As opposed to some of the hysterical comments made by the pro Max crowd? The partisan posters on both sides are frankly as bad as each other.
 
On balance I think I wanted Verstappen to win yesterday, if only for my possibly unfounded belief that Mercedes will come back strong in the second half of the season, and my wish for a nail-biting conclusion to the season.

With that said, yesterday was a racing incident and Lewis should not have been punished. Horner was ridiculous.

I'm almost certain this kind of coming together will happen again this season, probably more than once. If next time the roles are reversed, Max will have to be punished and this title will be decided through two teams complaining to the stewards.

Aggressive, hard racing is a good thing and Max and Lewis have both pushed the boundaries but there really needs to be more less focus on penalising this sort of racing.
 
Credit where credit is due. Seb Vettel suprised alot of people by staying behind and helping pick up litter from the Silverstone grandstands. Photos and video online. Humble multi millionaire.

Does anyone know if Seb has a particular thing about recycling or litter?
 
dinostar77 said:
Credit where credit is due. Seb Vettel suprised alot of people by staying behind and helping pick up litter from the Silverstone grandstands. Photos and video online. Humble multi millionaire.

Does anyone know if Seb has a particular thing about recycling or litter?
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Yes he speaks on environmental issues regularly, so I suspect this is related to that.
 
dinostar77 said:
Credit where credit is due. Seb Vettel suprised alot of people by staying behind and helping pick up litter from the Silverstone grandstands. Photos and video online. Humble multi millionaire.

Does anyone know if Seb has a particular thing about recycling or litter?
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He's improved so much as a person since his time at Red Bull. He's even found some humour judging by drive to survive.
 
The Hilton said:
He's improved so much as a person since his time at Red Bull. He's even found some humour judging by drive to survive.
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Seb has always been funny, check him out on top gear years ago with Clarkson.

He's got a very English sense of humour.

 
Frosty said:
On balance I think I wanted Verstappen to win yesterday, if only for my possibly unfounded belief that Mercedes will come back strong in the second half of the season, and my wish for a nail-biting conclusion to the season.

With that said, yesterday was a racing incident and Lewis should not have been punished. Horner was ridiculous.

I'm almost certain this kind of coming together will happen again this season, probably more than once. If next time the roles are reversed, Max will have to be punished and this title will be decided through two teams complaining to the stewards.

Aggressive, hard racing is a good thing and Max and Lewis have both pushed the boundaries but there really needs to be more less focus on penalising this sort of racing.
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Don't you think that if drivers aren't penalized when they don't allow space or don't regard the line of another car to the outside of them, then the drivers will adjust and get really aggressive with how they defend the outside on all different kind of corners, and then the next result is that no one even tries to attack or defend on the outside?
 
MTF said:
Don't you think that if drivers aren't penalized when they don't allow space or don't regard the line of another car to the outside of them, then the drivers will adjust and get really aggressive with how they defend the outside on all different kind of corners, and then the next result is that no one even tries to attack or defend on the outside?
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The difference here is Hamilton hasn't run Verstappen off the road or pushed him wide so that he can't make the corner. Verstappen himself has turned in on Hamilton thinking he's going to back off and he'll nip ahead through the exit. (which is usually what happens)

This time Hamilton sticks to his guns until he feels it's too late, then he eases off for a split second to try to avoid the contact. This allows Verstappen to get ahead but unfortunately they clip wheels.

Compare it to say Leclerc and Perez at Austria and it's very different.
 
MTF said:
Don't you think that if drivers aren't penalized when they don't allow space or don't regard the line of another car to the outside of them, then the drivers will adjust and get really aggressive with how they defend the outside on all different kind of corners, and then the next result is that no one even tries to attack or defend on the outside?
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I'm not suggesting that those rules shouldn't be enforced. I just think that the stewards responses to the events with Perez, Norwich, Hamilton and Russell at Austria and Silverstone shows that they are erring too far on the side of caution when it comes to hard driving like we saw yesterday.
 
Infordin said:
Lewis Hamilton's most famous overtake of his career:

he considers this his best overtake in his own opinion:



Is this bad racecraft? And if it is, why does Hamilton of all people consider it to be the best overtake of his career?

There was nothing wrong with Verstappen's move in Spain. He made the apex, didn't run wide, and was ahead on corner exit.

Comparing it to Silverstone, where Hamilton clips Raikkonen from behind, is just a complete fallacy.
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I was at that race, Kimi was fecked after ruining his neck in a crash in either practice or quali (can’t remember) I was so gutted I was hoping he could pull off an upset :(

Lewis really rates that as the best move of his career?
 
Adam-Utd said:
The difference here is Hamilton hasn't run Verstappen off the road or pushed him wide so that he can't make the corner. Verstappen himself has turned in on Hamilton thinking he's going to back off and he'll nip ahead through the exit. (which is usually what happens)

This time Hamilton sticks to his guns until he feels it's too late, then he eases off for a split second to try to avoid the contact. This allows Verstappen to get ahead but unfortunately they clip wheels.

Compare it to say Leclerc and Perez at Austria and it's very different.
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Yeah, it's not a classic case about how much space you leave another car on the outside at corner exit. But I think it's still somewhat about how two cars might try to navigate the middle of a corner side-by-side, and I think a similar principle applies in that the car on the inside doesn't get to just decide how wide he wants to run and the outside car just has to deal with it.

I've said it before, I think Hamilton makes a mistake. He's carrying too much speed at too tight an angle with too little grip (dirty track inside) to take the corner well and is why he understeers and misses the apex by quite a bit. My view is just that it's still on a driver to drive a tighter line when he knows a car is outside of him into a corner. A similar case is Sainz getting clipped by Russell during the sprint race on Saturday, for which he was also penalized.

Frosty said:
I'm not suggesting that those rules shouldn't be enforced. I just think that the stewards responses to the events with Perez, Norwich, Hamilton and Russell at Austria and Silverstone shows that they are erring too far on the side of caution when it comes to hard driving like we saw yesterday.
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But if hard racing™ is not leaving any space outside, then you won't get that racing as everything will just be a dive to the inside, from defending or attacking positions.
 
MTF said:
Yeah, it's not a classic case about how much space you leave another car on the outside at corner exit. But I think it's still somewhat about how two cars might try to navigate the middle of a corner side-by-side, and I think a similar principle applies in that the car on the inside doesn't get to just decide how wide he wants to run and the outside car just has to deal with it.

I've said it before, I think Hamilton makes a mistake. He's carrying too much speed at too tight an angle with too little grip (dirty track inside) to take the corner well and is why he understeers and misses the apex by quite a bit. My view is just that it's still on a driver to drive a tighter line when he knows a car is outside of him into a corner. A similar case is Sainz getting clipped by Russell during the sprint race on Saturday, for which he was also penalized.


But if hard racing™ is not leaving any space outside, then you won't get that racing as everything will just be a dive to the inside, from defending or attacking positions.
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I've said it many times, Hamilton is partially to blame, same for Verstappen. This is racing and not everything is cut and dry, there isn't a 100% blame to either of them.

They both could have done things differently to avoid it. The tension was huge, the excitement was sky high and with the draft Hamilton was getting there was no way he would give that chance up.

It's really unfortunate the clash happened, but f1 history is littered with crashes like this and big moments, it'll go down in folklore as a Senna/Prost moment for sure.
 
Well we wanted racing right? And if this thread is anything to go by, interest in F1 has shot up faster than an extra in trainspotting.

Roll on the rest of the season I say, drama, drama queens and thread bans for the "heat of the moment" posts.

Does this mean santi can come back? He'd fit right in now...
 
rednotled said:
Well we wanted racing right? And if this thread is anything to go by, interest in F1 has shot up faster than an extra in trainspotting.

Roll on the rest of the season I say, drama, drama queens and thread bans for the "heat of the moment" posts.

Does this mean santi can come back? He'd fit right in now...
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Bingo, 1 thing for sure is this has the feeling of a PROPER rivalry now.

F1 has become pretty PG over the last few years, drivers are all best friends and wouldn't say boo to a goose.

It's nice to see some of them giving it out, but fairly of course.
 
Infordin said:
Lewis Hamilton's most famous overtake of his career:

he considers this his best overtake in his own opinion:



Is this bad racecraft? And if it is, why does Hamilton of all people consider it to be the best overtake of his career?

There was nothing wrong with Verstappen's move in Spain. He made the apex, didn't run wide, and was ahead on corner exit.

Comparing it to Silverstone, where Hamilton clips Raikkonen from behind, is just a complete fallacy.
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That overtake has nothing to do with my post about Hamilton having to avoid crashes with Max multiple times.

You claim it is his best overtake but you're probably taking far too seriously some bullshite media interview the drivers had to do.
 
Fluctuation0161 said:
That overtake has nothing to do with my post about Hamilton having to avoid crashes with Max multiple times.
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There is nothing wrong with diving down the inside. Lots of overtakes are made in this way. As long as you make the corner and are ahead on exit, you are fine.
 
Infordin said:
There is nothing wrong with diving down the inside. Lots of overtakes are made in this way. As long as you make the corner and are ahead on exit, you are fine.
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As long as you leave space to a car alongside, which Max doesn't generally do as I clearly showed above. Seems like what you really mean is: "There is nothing wrong with Max diving down the inside".
 
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Fluctuation0161 said:
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People have been crying for some feisty and competitive things to come back to the F1 and now it's back and people are complaining. It was a great and bold move from Lewis and he got away with it. This I like, rest of the season will be tight as feck and that's great.
 
arthurka said:
People have been crying for some feisty and competitive things to come back to the F1 and now it's back and people are complaining. It was a great and bold move from Lewis and he got away with it. This I like, rest of the season will be tight as feck and that's great.
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Rest of the season will be very interesting. I think the Red Bull car is too fast for the Mercedes (the rule change worked) but I look forward to some more action.

However, I think the Red Bulls management teams reaction to the crash was excessive and will only make the racing more aggressive and possibly dangerous in the future.
 
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Fluctuation0161 said:
Rest of the session will be very interesting. I think the Red Bull car is too fast for the Mercedes (the rule change worked) but I look forward to some more action.

However, I think the Red Bulls management teams reaction to the crash was excessive and will only make the racing more aggressive and possibly dangerous in the future.
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This is what every F1 fan in the world has been crying out for this and I loved seeing Lewis being reckless and aggressive and giving shit. Max and Red Bull have gotten under the Mercs skin and are really pissing them off. It's a game and Horner and Red Bull are rattling the cage here. Finally I am watching this with great interest again. If Red Bull play this right they will be crowned champions they seem to have a better kit and a fantastic talent in Max.
 
arthurka said:
People have been crying for some feisty and competitive things to come back to the F1 and now it's back and people are complaining. It was a great and bold move from Lewis and he got away with it. This I like, rest of the season will be tight as feck and that's great.
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Well as a very casual F1 follower who started losing interest a couple of years ago, this has definitely peaked my interest again.
 
WeePat said:
Well as a very casual F1 follower who started losing interest a couple of years ago, this has definitely peaked my interest again.
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Rivalry and tight races is what this sport has been crying out for.. now we have it back, what's not to like.
 
This is pathetic on RB part.


Red Bull motorsport boss Helmut Marko is reportedly determined to bring in a legal eagle to probe the FIA stewards' handling of the crash between Max Verstappen and Lewis Hamilton in the British Grand Prix.

Hamilton was handed a 10-second penalty by the stewards for causing a collision when the two drivers clashed at Copse corner on the opening lap of last Sunday's race.

But the sanction didn't prevent the Mercedes driver from winning the race.

However, the Red Bull camp was unhappy with the stewards' decision, with Marko calling for an outright race ban on Hamilton in light of the Briton's "dangerous" move that sent Verstappen into the barriers.

"He [the lawyer] should check what you could do in such a situation within the framework of the sporting rules," Marko is quoted by Austria's Kronen Zeitung

"It was very lucky that nothing serious happened to Max, the car, and probably the engine too, is broken. You can't let that sit on you."


Regardless of the outcome of Red Bull's potential legal procedure, Marko believes a revision of the sporting rules and the stewards' system regarding in-race sanctions is in order, with harsher penalties to be considered.

"A suspension would be justified," Marko added. "But maybe the regulations are also to blame for being relatively restricted.

"The rules should be revised, including the stewards system. Perez got five seconds twice in Austria because there was marginal contact without anyone flying off.


"You could have given a drive-thru penalty plus ten seconds to Hamilton. But they didn't do that either.

"Max was on his line. Where Hamilton was he had to lift off the throttle. You cannot hit your opponent on the rear wheel in one of the fastest corners, the lightest touch has fatal consequences.

"So, an irresponsible action. Hamilton needs to know what the consequences are."
 
pauldyson1uk said:
This is pathetic on RB part.


Red Bull motorsport boss Helmut Marko is reportedly determined to bring in a legal eagle to probe the FIA stewards' handling of the crash between Max Verstappen and Lewis Hamilton in the British Grand Prix.

Hamilton was handed a 10-second penalty by the stewards for causing a collision when the two drivers clashed at Copse corner on the opening lap of last Sunday's race.

But the sanction didn't prevent the Mercedes driver from winning the race.

However, the Red Bull camp was unhappy with the stewards' decision, with Marko calling for an outright race ban on Hamilton in light of the Briton's "dangerous" move that sent Verstappen into the barriers.

"He [the lawyer] should check what you could do in such a situation within the framework of the sporting rules," Marko is quoted by Austria's Kronen Zeitung

"It was very lucky that nothing serious happened to Max, the car, and probably the engine too, is broken. You can't let that sit on you."


Regardless of the outcome of Red Bull's potential legal procedure, Marko believes a revision of the sporting rules and the stewards' system regarding in-race sanctions is in order, with harsher penalties to be considered.

"A suspension would be justified," Marko added. "But maybe the regulations are also to blame for being relatively restricted.

"The rules should be revised, including the stewards system. Perez got five seconds twice in Austria because there was marginal contact without anyone flying off.


"You could have given a drive-thru penalty plus ten seconds to Hamilton. But they didn't do that either.

"Max was on his line. Where Hamilton was he had to lift off the throttle. You cannot hit your opponent on the rear wheel in one of the fastest corners, the lightest touch has fatal consequences.

"So, an irresponsible action. Hamilton needs to know what the consequences are."
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That seems ridiculous. There will be occasions where Verstappen does similar and where Hamilton does it again, that's literally what has always happened when people are driving on he limits in F1.

Also, the fact that Verstappen went off is down to luck (or lack of), so you can't use that to determine a penalty. If Verstappen had hit in a slightly different position it would be Hamilton's wheel which came off or both. Hamilton is a way better driver than I thought if he has managed to position the car in a way which means he knew that his car would be undamaged and Verstappen would go off. It's the same as Perez in Austria, slightly different contact and the result is totally different.
 
pauldyson1uk said:
This is pathetic on RB part.


Red Bull motorsport boss Helmut Marko is reportedly determined to bring in a legal eagle to probe the FIA stewards' handling of the crash between Max Verstappen and Lewis Hamilton in the British Grand Prix.

Hamilton was handed a 10-second penalty by the stewards for causing a collision when the two drivers clashed at Copse corner on the opening lap of last Sunday's race.

But the sanction didn't prevent the Mercedes driver from winning the race.

However, the Red Bull camp was unhappy with the stewards' decision, with Marko calling for an outright race ban on Hamilton in light of the Briton's "dangerous" move that sent Verstappen into the barriers.

"He [the lawyer] should check what you could do in such a situation within the framework of the sporting rules," Marko is quoted by Austria's Kronen Zeitung

"It was very lucky that nothing serious happened to Max, the car, and probably the engine too, is broken. You can't let that sit on you."


Regardless of the outcome of Red Bull's potential legal procedure, Marko believes a revision of the sporting rules and the stewards' system regarding in-race sanctions is in order, with harsher penalties to be considered.

"A suspension would be justified," Marko added. "But maybe the regulations are also to blame for being relatively restricted.

"The rules should be revised, including the stewards system. Perez got five seconds twice in Austria because there was marginal contact without anyone flying off.


"You could have given a drive-thru penalty plus ten seconds to Hamilton. But they didn't do that either.

"Max was on his line. Where Hamilton was he had to lift off the throttle. You cannot hit your opponent on the rear wheel in one of the fastest corners, the lightest touch has fatal consequences.

"So, an irresponsible action. Hamilton needs to know what the consequences are."
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Ridiculous.

If this continues, Red Bull will be having a negative impact on F1.
 
pauldyson1uk said:
This is pathetic on RB part.


Red Bull motorsport boss Helmut Marko is reportedly determined to bring in a legal eagle to probe the FIA stewards' handling of the crash between Max Verstappen and Lewis Hamilton in the British Grand Prix.

Hamilton was handed a 10-second penalty by the stewards for causing a collision when the two drivers clashed at Copse corner on the opening lap of last Sunday's race.

But the sanction didn't prevent the Mercedes driver from winning the race.

However, the Red Bull camp was unhappy with the stewards' decision, with Marko calling for an outright race ban on Hamilton in light of the Briton's "dangerous" move that sent Verstappen into the barriers.

"He [the lawyer] should check what you could do in such a situation within the framework of the sporting rules," Marko is quoted by Austria's Kronen Zeitung

"It was very lucky that nothing serious happened to Max, the car, and probably the engine too, is broken. You can't let that sit on you."


Regardless of the outcome of Red Bull's potential legal procedure, Marko believes a revision of the sporting rules and the stewards' system regarding in-race sanctions is in order, with harsher penalties to be considered.

"A suspension would be justified," Marko added. "But maybe the regulations are also to blame for being relatively restricted.

"The rules should be revised, including the stewards system. Perez got five seconds twice in Austria because there was marginal contact without anyone flying off.


"You could have given a drive-thru penalty plus ten seconds to Hamilton. But they didn't do that either.

"Max was on his line. Where Hamilton was he had to lift off the throttle. You cannot hit your opponent on the rear wheel in one of the fastest corners, the lightest touch has fatal consequences.

"So, an irresponsible action. Hamilton needs to know what the consequences are."
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So much for them calming down in the cold light of the morning. It's really pathetic and such hyperbole with 'fatal consequences' - and a great way to lose support from neutrals.

When you have Vettel, LeClerc and Hill all saying it was a racing incident it underlines that it was a marginal decision.

Max is a great driver, but this is making me hate RB so much I hope they don't win anything this year.
 
Are Red Bull worried Mercedes are going to find form now? They’re really going a bit OTT with this, I get stuff like this probably happens behind the scenes but it’s so public it’s a bit bizarre
 
Regardless I do find it a bit weird that if someone crashes (in this case Max) and the FIA deem someone else was (predominantly) at fault (in this case Hamilton) and the entire car including engine is ruined as a result that you don't get an extra engine penalty free.
 
ArjenIsM3 said:
Regardless I do find it a bit weird that if someone crashes (in this case Max) and the FIA deem someone else was (predominantly) at fault (in this case Hamilton) and the entire car including engine is ruined as a result that you don't get an extra engine penalty free.
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I agree with that. I was wondering how old the engine was, if it was in the first or second race that's not great for Red Bull.
 
Snowjoe said:
Are Red Bull worried Mercedes are going to find form now? They’re really going a bit OTT with this, I get stuff like this probably happens behind the scenes but it’s so public it’s a bit bizarre
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I dont think so, Red Bull is still the fastest car on the grid, the Merc upgrades have got them a bit closer, but not enough to worry RB.
Carring this on is not good, every single move Lewis and Max make will be watched and over analyzed.
Max takes out Lewis, some will see it has payback, Lewis takes out Max again and they will be screaming for blood.
Max and Horner out burst after the race has not helped. F1 needs this rivalry and needs some aggression , without it F1 is nothing.
 
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