Imagine counting incidents where Verstappen was 17 years old
absolutely shamelessThere’s footage of a 12 year old Verstappen karting. I’m sure that you can find questionable driving there too!
Come on, let’s see you try!
F1 2021 Season
- Thread starter pauldyson1uk
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absolutely shamelessThere’s footage of a 12 year old Verstappen karting. I’m sure that you can find questionable driving there too!
Come on, let’s see you try!
Never said this.
You were the one who was keeping track of drivers who said racing incident as if that means anything. I merely pointed out that those who have the most data disagreed.
I normally never defer to argument from authority.
Horner also said that Hamilton’s move at Copse was dangerous and he is 100% at fault. Do you believe him there too?
Verstappen was ahead on corner exit in Spain. By the letter of the law, had the right to squeeze Hamilton out.
Anyway, I find it quite amusing that the Hamilton fans who are trying to defend him keep bringing up old races as if they are in any way relevant.
This is getting really tedious. Does any of you really think you're going to get out of this discussion? All the possible viewpoints have now been explained, so how about you just agree that you hate each other's viewpoints, and agree to disagree for the rest?
Also, the entire forum would be better off if opinions weren't being derided left right and centre as being fueled by fandom. It adds nothing to the discussion and is often inflammatory.
Christ this thread has been a pain since that crash. (Some better posts and occasional grown-up conversation notwithstanding.)
Also, the entire forum would be better off if opinions weren't being derided left right and centre as being fueled by fandom. It adds nothing to the discussion and is often inflammatory.
Christ this thread has been a pain since that crash. (Some better posts and occasional grown-up conversation notwithstanding.)
Just set the trolls on ignore.
Pointless trying to explain to them anything when they're convinced that Max can do no wrong.
Pointless trying to explain to them anything when they're convinced that Max can do no wrong.
Imagine counting incidents where Verstappen was 17 years old
There’s footage of a 12 year old Verstappen karting. I’m sure that you can find questionable driving there too!
Come on, let’s see you try!
Strange post considering he has been a professional F1 driver since 2015. Do the rules not apply to him? Maybe for you, no.
Horner is on the same team as Max. It is obvious that his opinions will be formed to defend Max. Yet even Horner accepted that Lewis had to back out in Spain. Just like Max could've backed out in Silverstone. Which is why the word "predominantly" was used on the FIA penalty document. Both drivers contributed to that accident.
You posted about the "old" races, if May 2021 is even classed as "old", that is what I was responding to. You are getting desperate now trying to deflect.
Because you are so blinded and partisan in your support of Max you brand anyone who disagrees a Hamilton fan. Silly really.
Anyway my key point is in bold. No point going around in circles.
I will end the tedium here.
Hamilton was 26 years old in the video below. This is just his crashes with Massa alone that year, it does not include the collisions he had with Webber, Button, Kobayashi, Di Resta and Maldonado.
I see over a race ban worth of penalty points in this season alone. Thankfully for Hamilton, penalty points weren’t a thing back then, because if they were, he would have collected more in a single season than Verstappen has ever.
Hamilton is lucky that penalty points only introduced in 2014, when he matured into a proper racing driver. Verstappen did not have that luxury. He did his learning and growing with the penalty points system in place.
If you don’t see the flaw in counting penalty points collected by Verstappen when he was 17 years old, you are either incredibly dumb or horribly biased. I don’t think you are dumb, which means that the only explanation is blinding incurable bias.
If Hamilton was taken out in Spain, Verstappen would not be at fault because he was ahead at the point where Hamilton had to make his evasive manoeuvre.
Skip to 3:29 of this video
Massa is down the inside of Vandoorne, who turns in and hits Massa. Vandoorne is out of the race. Massa does not receive any kind of penalty because he’s ahead on corner exit.
If Hamilton hit Verstappen’s sidepod in Spain and broke his suspension, Verstappen would not have received any kind of penalty because he was ahead on corner exit.
This thread went about as expected. For me it's a racing incident as a result of both drivers pushing the limits. In those situations sometimes things go slightly wrong and crashes happen.
It's really sad to see all the racist abuse as a result, and how RB have handled this whole thing.
It's really sad to see all the racist abuse as a result, and how RB have handled this whole thing.
Agreed !!!
In times like these you can really tell that Redcafe is a British forum.
I am being painted as the villain for defending Verstappen for an incident where the vast majority of people outside the UK consider him the innocent party.
SkyF1 is some brainwashing machine.
I am being painted as the villain for defending Verstappen for an incident where the vast majority of people outside the UK consider him the innocent party.
SkyF1 is some brainwashing machine.
For the record I'm neither British nor in the UK. Everyone I talked to about this offline (admittedly only 2 people) thought it was a 50/50. But I'm sure you'd find a reason to think they are biased.In times like these you can really tell that Redcafe is a British forum.
I am being painted as the villain for defending Verstappen for an incident where the vast majority of people outside the UK consider him the innocent party.
SkyF1 is some brainwashing machine.
I am British and a Lewis fan and I also said he was 60/40 to blame.
Many ex drivers and current drivers said racing incident, that's good enough for me.
For me its done, debating has been done to death.
On to the next race and no doubt more drama.
This tread is going down a route I did not want it too.
I have seen a read some pretty nasty comments about Lewis, predictable from mostly RB fans, monkey emoji's, pictures, comments, it is sickening that it happens, but it does, thankfully none on here
Many ex drivers and current drivers said racing incident, that's good enough for me.
For me its done, debating has been done to death.
On to the next race and no doubt more drama.
This tread is going down a route I did not want it too.
I have seen a read some pretty nasty comments about Lewis, predictable from mostly RB fans, monkey emoji's, pictures, comments, it is sickening that it happens, but it does, thankfully none on here
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Go to YouTube, and read the top comments on SkyF1 videos covering the race, and compare them to the top comments on the official Formula 1 channel. Night and day difference. Brits predominantly think that justice was served when Hamilton crashed out Verstappen. Non-Brits think that Hamilton was at fault and the penalty.
I am not suggesting that YouTube comments have any wisdom. What they do however tell us is which view is more popular.
Of course it’s done for you, because you are a Lewis fan. Easy to move on when your favourite driver benefits massively. Not so easy to move on when you are a Verstappen fan. Hamilton takes Verstappen out of the race AND takes 25 points out of him.
Hamilton fans moaned for weeks after Spa 2014 and all sorts of cheating accusations were thrown at Rosberg. You can expect similar treatment towards Hamilton in the next few weeks. Rosberg was also booed for the rest of the season. I wouldn’t be surprised if Hamilton gets booed hard, especially when we get to the Belgium-Netherlands-Italy triple header.
I'm no fan of Hamilton - but this is F1 - shit like this happens all the time. Nothing can be changed, time to move on. Hamilton was at fault, unintentional and not an egregious error. You can't just DQ him for that move.
Agree with someone else's suggestion that Mercedes should be paying for damage, and any component penalties should be waived.
Agree with someone else's suggestion that Mercedes should be paying for damage, and any component penalties should be waived.
and of course you don't comment on the racist abuse he was getting, not shocked about that either.
Lewis fan yes, also a Max fan, both to blame , Lewis more than Max, that was clear.
Of course Lewis is going to get booed, he was always going to get booed, haters dont need a reason to boo !
Would you be saying the same things if Max had died?
He didn't die, so I don't get what the hyperbole is about?
Jesus wept half the people in the UK hate Hamilton as much as the people outside of it
This is very true, even the ones I know that really dont like Lewis, has said it was a racing incident.Jesus wept half the people in the UK hate Hamilton as much as the people outside of it
From my experience, there are two types of people who dislike Hamilton:Jesus wept half the people in the UK hate Hamilton as much as the people outside of it
1. those who dislike him for his political views and opinions. These are usually based in the UK. However, they often aren’t even F1 fans
2. those who consider him an overrated driver with inflated statistics who got lucky driving for the most dominant team ever. These are almost always from outside the UK. I fall in this bracket.
I could not care any less about Hamilton as a person, nor do I mind his political views. I just find him an overrated driver and I rate Verstappen above him.
In times like these you can really tell that Redcafe is a British forum.
I am being painted as the villain for defending Verstappen for an incident where the vast majority of people outside the UK consider him the innocent party.
SkyF1 is some brainwashing machine.
Actually, you’re not being painted as a villain for defending Verstappen. You’re being painted a villain because of HOW you’re attempting to debate. There are plenty of people here who defend Verstappen but aren’t resorting to presenting a distorted and factually incorrect set of arguments. It’s one thing defending him based on the actual set of facts, and then there is your method, which is defending him by talking nonsense and/or using selective at best, bullshit at worst, facts. With respect (or not), there is a reason why I singled you out and not others who are equally defending Verstappen.
Well your experience is wrong then. Being in the UK, I know of plenty of people who dislike Hamilton and don’t consider him the best driver. They respect him, sure (and so should those who overrate him), but there’s plenty who dislike him.
My experience is from posting both on forums that are predominantly British and on forums that are international. The British forums are on average significantly more pro-Hamilton.
You perceive my arguments to be dishonest because you don’t agree with them. Simple.
If my arguments are wrong then it shouldn’t be that hard to debunk them.
No they tell us what the ignorant mass with a fleeting interest in the matter think. Which means feck all. Coincidentally that's exactly as much as the posts of pseudo analysis by someone who I'd now wager has never even sat in a competitive go-kart tell us. Feck all.
Defending Verstappen = Pseudoanalysis
I wouldn’t expect anything less tbh
I wouldn’t expect anything less tbh
Great analysis by Driver61. The only person who has actually acknowledged that Verstappen left room and Hamilton understeered into him:
Think you’ve answered your own debate here by saying The only person. There’s been plenty of other analysis videos posted too that you’ve disagreed with but now there’s one that agrees with you it’s ‘great’.
so he is the only person !!! so all the experts , ex drive,r current drivers, who sat racing incident are all wrong !!!
You need to give it up.
This is just frankly a silly opinion to have at the moment. For all Max's talent (which is huge, no doubt), you're currently rating a driver with 0 titles over the most successful driver of all time. It's like finding Ronaldo overrated and rating Foden above him - maybe it'll be accurate in a decade, but it certainly isn't now.
He's almost certainly gonna get his first title this year, the RB is just too fast, but he'll still got a long way to go to have any credible claim to superiority over Hamilton.
Just to address the "lucky" bit, back when Hamilton signed with Mercedes it was widely hailed as a rubbish career move, which turned out to be a brilliant one. It's not like he rolled the dice to end up there.
It wasn't widely hailed as rubbish, not in most circles. Everyone knew he was going there because of the upcoming reg changes. He made his own luck in that regard.
I dislike him for one reason: He can be a hypocrite. He did it again recently when he threw the team under the bus for a poor performance. When he's winning he is all sunshine and smiles, "we win and lose as a team", then he loses and it's out the window.
That said, he's a fantastic driver, who has benefited from also being part of a fantastic team, and his off the track activities (BLM etc) are excellent, but I want to see him lose. Mainly because he's won 4 drivers championships in a row, and 6 out of the last 7, time for the underdog (not that Red Bull are underdogs but you get my point).
could not have put it better.
Dislike him , if you must hate him, but to say he is overrated is just silly.
He has broken nearly every record there is, many if not all acknowledge Lewis is one of the best ever and some think is because he is lucky.
We're gonna have to agree to disagree with regards to the response, I clearly remember the coverage differently to you. Yes there were the upcoming regulation changes, but very few predicted just how successful Mercedes were going to be.
Having said that, the "making his own luck" is the main point, he made an excellent choice when moving there and has been a key part of their dominance.
This argument is getting quite boring. It basically comes down to these viewpoints, bare with me.
1. Was it intentional? You’d have to be mental to actually want to create contact at that point. For both your own race and your opponents. Hamilton has never really shown anything in his career to suggest he’s a malicious driver. If you have this viewpoint, I’d understand why you are annoyed, but I don’t even think Horner thinks it was “intentional”.
2. Hamilton made a mistake and was at fault. It’s what the stewards judged predominately. It’s why he got the penalty, however, they judged that he wasn’t solely to blame, hence no stop and go. If you have this viewpoint it’s time to move on. If this happened in the midfield it would barely have been discussed after the race. We also have plenty of other examples of title rivals crashing into each other. It happens. Forfeiting points, being banned from the next race is so extreme, I don’t even remember the last time this happened.
3. Racing incident. We all want to see overtaking, this will lead to high risk, contact and crashes. Also noting that Max has completed lots of overtakes previously where the opponent has little choice but pull out. Right or wrong, that is undeniable. It’s also pointed out that a more experienced driver would have let Hamilton go (with a 35 point lead) and over taken with the faster car later in the race.
What I’m saying is that unless you have viewpoint 1, which most sane fans don’t, it’s time to move on. Even if Lewis was at fault, you can’t criticise him for the 10 second penalty. He could only race how it was presented to him.
1. Was it intentional? You’d have to be mental to actually want to create contact at that point. For both your own race and your opponents. Hamilton has never really shown anything in his career to suggest he’s a malicious driver. If you have this viewpoint, I’d understand why you are annoyed, but I don’t even think Horner thinks it was “intentional”.
2. Hamilton made a mistake and was at fault. It’s what the stewards judged predominately. It’s why he got the penalty, however, they judged that he wasn’t solely to blame, hence no stop and go. If you have this viewpoint it’s time to move on. If this happened in the midfield it would barely have been discussed after the race. We also have plenty of other examples of title rivals crashing into each other. It happens. Forfeiting points, being banned from the next race is so extreme, I don’t even remember the last time this happened.
3. Racing incident. We all want to see overtaking, this will lead to high risk, contact and crashes. Also noting that Max has completed lots of overtakes previously where the opponent has little choice but pull out. Right or wrong, that is undeniable. It’s also pointed out that a more experienced driver would have let Hamilton go (with a 35 point lead) and over taken with the faster car later in the race.
What I’m saying is that unless you have viewpoint 1, which most sane fans don’t, it’s time to move on. Even if Lewis was at fault, you can’t criticise him for the 10 second penalty. He could only race how it was presented to him.
Top post.