Erik ten Hag vs Sancho | Sancho back in full training

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roonster09 said:
It's a minor comments to you, but for Sancho it's calling out his training performance in the press. Culture doesn't mean worshipping manager and going with 'my manager does no wrong".

It's simple that you are so close minded that you don't even entertain the idea that EtH could have said something else without giving soundbyte for press
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Then Sancho needs to deal with it and have the conversation with the manager like I said:

“Sorry gaffer, I shouldn’t have made the post. I should have come to speak to you first because I wasn’t happy with you saying I wasn’t selected because of my training performance. What have you seen in training that you’d like me to do differently so I have more of a chance of being selected next time?”

How does that not help clarify everything from all parties while acknowledging how Sancho felt (and not apologising for those feelings)

Where have I said ETH couldn’t have said something else?

What I have said is that saying something else is no guarantee of a similar reaction given the reaction is completely irrational I the first place.

Ten Hag could have said many things. And I don’t see how they justify or in any way downplay or excuse the stupidity of Sancho’s response and therefore I don’t see the point in analysing what he could have said.
 
Lash said:
Of course it could have been. Some people are masters of treating people differently and keeping a group to the same standards, but it's not an easy thing to do. In the same vein could this not have been avoided if he just had some thicker skin about mild criticism? It's not like he's particularly shown anything to suggest he should be immune from this sort of criticism, so I don't think the onus falls solely on Ten Hag to handle the situation better.
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True, I'm not blaming entirely on EtH. It's just that @BenitoSTARR made hypothetical situation with how apology could have been made, I just said in the same way Eth could have also did things differently.
 
roonster09 said:
True, I'm not blaming entirely on EtH. It's just that @BenitoSTARR made hypothetical situation with how apology could have been made, I just said in the same way Eth could have also did things differently.
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The difference here is that what Ten Hag said should not elicit that reaction.

How can you get to 24 years old be a grown ass man and think the best way to address an issue you have is through a post calling it lies, implying there is a more nefarious reason for it and that you’ve been made a scape goat?
 
BenitoSTARR said:
Then Sancho needs to deal with it and have the conversation with the manager like I said:

“Sorry gaffer, I shouldn’t have made the post. I should have come to speak to you first because I wasn’t happy with you saying I wasn’t selected because of my training performance. What have you seen in training that you’d like me to do differently so I have more of a chance of being selected next time?”

How does that not help clarify everything from all parties while acknowledging how Sancho felt (and not apologising for those feelings)

Where have I said ETH couldn’t have said something else?

What I have said is that saying something else is no guarantee of a similar reaction given the reaction is completely irrational I the first place.

Ten Hag could have said many things. And I don’t see how they justify or in any way downplay or excuse the stupidity of Sancho’s response and therefore I don’t see the point in analysing what he could have said.
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And the bold part is exactly what you are doing.

Sancho should have apologized and eth would have accepted -- analysing EtH's response to apology.

EtH could have said different thing, and Sancho would have still made that post -- again analysing Sancho's response to EtH's nothing comment.

Point is you are so blinded in this argument that you don't entertain any idea that Sancho maybe wouldn't have posted had EtH handled it better and entertain idea that EtH could have done things differently.
For you it's simple, manager - can't do anything wrong. Player - just idiot.
 
Nori- said:
Yes its petty, but I don't want him to win the Champions League so he can't then turn around and say "Look what I've achieved after telling ETH to F off, I win".

I'd prefer he finished the season trophyless, missed out on a FA Cup because he refused to fall in line and we sell him this summer with his tail between his legs.
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That sounds like Sanchoesque thinking
 
BenitoSTARR said:
The difference here is that what Ten Hag said should not elicit that reaction.

How can you get to 24 years old be a grown ass man and think the best way to address an issue you have is through a post calling it lies, implying there is a more nefarious reason for it and that you’ve been made a scape goat?
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How can a 52 year old man act so petty crying about apology?
 
Kaos said:
Granted Ten Hag could have been more discrete in his evaluation of the situation, but its not like he willingly made those statements unprovoked. He was constantly pestered by the press as to why Sancho didn't make the squad.
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The thing that often gets missed is that ETH’s comments implied that Pellistri or someone else out-trained Sancho. Not that Sancho trained poorly per se. It’s poor of Sancho to get so butthurt because he was outperformed in training.
 
roonster09 said:
How can a 52 year old man act so petty crying about apology?
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If he shows any weakness then where is the discipline in the squad? The bare minimum requirement for any player is to respect the manager even if you have a difference of opinion.
 
roonster09 said:
And the bold part is exactly what you are doing.

Sancho should have apologized and eth would have accepted -- analysing EtH's response to apology.

EtH could have said different thing, and Sancho would have still made that post -- again analysing Sancho's response to EtH's nothing comment.

Point is you are so blinded in this argument that you don't entertain any idea that Sancho maybe wouldn't have posted had EtH handled it better and entertain idea that EtH could have done things differently.
For you it's simple, manager - can't do anything wrong. Player - just idiot.
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It’s more the point manager hasn’t done anything wrong not that they can’t do any thing wrong it’s just this one specific scenario Ten Hag is not the issue. Just this one.

In this one specific scenario Sancho absolutely is the idiot and to say Ten Hag could have done X detracts from the actual issue here in that we’ve clearly got a very unprofessional player.
roonster09 said:
How can a 52 year old man act so petty crying about apology?
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Do you believe it’s petty? And I don’t see anywhere it’s reported Ten Hag as crying.

I think you’re leaning into Ten Hag here on the wrong issue.
 
sparx99 said:
The thing that often gets missed is that ETH’s comments implied that Pellistri or someone else out-trained Sancho. Not that Sancho trained poorly per se. It’s poor of Sancho to get so butthurt because he was outperformed in training.
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Heaven forbid we interpret it that way.
 
BenitoSTARR said:
It’s more the point manager hasn’t done anything wrong not that they can’t do any thing wrong it’s just this one specific scenario Ten Hag is not the issue. Just this one.

In this one specific scenario Sancho absolutely is the idiot and to say Ten Hag could have done X detracts from the actual issue here in that we’ve clearly got a very unprofessional player.

Do you believe it’s petty? And I don’t see anywhere it’s reported Ten Hag as crying.

I think you’re leaning into Ten Hag here on the wrong issue.
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No, it's just that you are not understanding the argument. You said Sancho could have made apology and you even wrote apology letter, which would have made things easier. In the same way, I said EtH also could have done things differently, not that what he did was wrong. Its just that if he did differently like some minor knock, things wouldn't have escalated.

The other problem is, as per you player apology would have been accepted by the noble man that is EtH but EtH saying very generic statement would have still made Sancho to post something on his Twitter because obviously player is a twat as always and will always do wrong.

You don't even entertain the idea that things could have been different, as per you no matter what EtH did or say, Sancho would have reacted in the same way which doesn't make any sense.
 
roonster09 said:
No, it's just that you are not understanding the argument. You said Sancho could have made apology and you even wrote apology letter, which would have made things easier. In the same way, I said EtH also could have done things differently, not that what he did was wrong. Its just that if he did differently like some minor knock, things wouldn't have escalated.

The other problem is, as per you player apology would have been accepted by the noble man that is EtH but EtH saying very generic statement would have still made Sancho to post something on his Twitter because obviously player is a twat as always and will always do wrong.

You don't even entertain the idea that things could have been different, as per you no matter what EtH did or say, Sancho would have reacted in the same way which doesn't make any sense.
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I’ve not said Ten Hag couldn’t have said something different my point is he absolutely shouldn’t have to. There is absolutely no issue with what he has said vs what other managers also say.

Your 2nd paragraph is hard to read what exactly are you trying to say here?

Things could have been different Ten Hag could make those comments or others and Sancho could be a professional accept he’s not going to play and work with Ten Hag to understand where he needs to improve to become the best possible player he can be for the club.

My point it the reaction of Sancho is irrational. I cannot therefore make a reasonable prediction about how he might behave when faced with any other comment because he also reacted irrationally to a fair comment to be made. He could have then rightly called out Ten Hag for lying about his injury status or he could have been completely fine with that we’ll never know because neither of those things are the reality and so I’d rather we stick to that.

Sancho is 100% in the wrong here. In the same way Ten Hag’s comments about Overmars are 100% in the wrong (obviously for different reasons)
 
romufc said:
@TheMagicFoolBus This is an example of what I meant.

Manutd have babies in their rank.. all Ten Hag wanted was an apology. Sancho didnt train well, ETH pointed it out as why he wasn't in the squad and Sancho threw his toys out, went on social media to get sympathy and play victim.

Tuchel is alot harsher on players. I want managers to call out players like Sancho who get paid all that and dont pull their weight but some of these players just cant hack a bit of criticism.
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...I still fail to see why ignoring this problem and coddling the players and their fragile egos is a preferable approach
 
TheMagicFoolBus said:
...I still fail to see why ignoring this problem and coddling the players and their fragile egos is a preferable approach
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No its not, but the fact is that at Manutd any little altercation gets magnified and blown out of proportion. Personally, a Tuchel is amazing, tells the fans how it is and gets on with it.

I mean we all want the manager to call out players if they are underperforming. Imagine a player been told he didnt train well and cries on twitter.. Imagine if he did what Tuchel does and calls them out after games, 60% of this squad will be crying.
 
jeff gurr said:
The whole thing should’ve been dealt with behind closed doors.
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This.

Further on, those who are standing with pitchforks raised saying “Ten Hag handled this perfectly!”, “Sancho is an unprofessional twat” “Oh glory the iron-fisted gaffer”, well… I think it was poorly handled by both sides.

It’s a very expensive mistake by Ten Hag. An asset that was bought for 70m or so is now distressed. He has wages for 250k/week.

Rashford, when he was disciplined by Ten Hag, was reportedly 30 seconds late for a meeting. That seems extreme and seems like a finable offense, not missing a game.

We don’t know the extent of what Ten Hag did before he called out Sancho publicly, maybe there were closed door meetings. Sancho was really affected by the abuse he got for missing his penalty at the Euros.

The problem is that I believe this is best handled by the captain, not the manager. It’s easier for the captain to put an arm around the player and ask why they are not training as hard.

My point is that there should be nuance here, and some are not motivated by a heavy hand. It’s up to Ten Hag and the club to get the best out of players and sometimes that involves other tactics.
 
Swango1980 said:
Sancho has to go.

I'm sure Sir Alex fell out with many players, and even had quite a few arguments. But, if those players had held a grudge like Sancho, even if Sancho felt he was in the right, Sir Alex would have got rid of them ASAP.

Player power needs to go. If players are wanting to show fight and a strong will, don't focus that against the manager, a team mate of even the fans. Focus your efforts on the football pitch, to drive yourself to the best you can be, helping out your team mates and doing it for the fans. Best way to respond to a manager is to show him you are a top asset to the football team, not a liability who is likely to sulk at any point you face adversity.

And, the great thing about that is, if you put everything out on the football pitch, there is no better way to strengthen bonds between you and the manager.
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Exactly this - Players are soft now, at least a lot of the players we've brought in are and don't have the mentality. The likes of Zlatan, Martinez, Mainoo seem to be made of the right stuff.

Off the top of my head I remember Fergie calling Nicky Butt a fecking cnut, who'd never play for United again. He kicked a boot at Beckham cutting his head, he physically went for Paul Ince. He also went for another player who i can't recall (Sheringham maybe? and had to be held back).

And here we have Sancho who's refusing to apologies because of fecking Instagram. Can you imagine what Fergie would have done? Well, he'd have done exactly what ETH has gone and yeet him out of the club.

We need more players with the mentality to play for the club and take a hammering when it's deserved from the manager, the kind of players that go "i'll show him" or "you know what he's right, i'll be better". Go watch the 99 doc on amazon, every single one of those players would die for the shirt and for the manager and they knew what an honour it was to play for United. We've lost a lot of that with our recruiting.
 
DSG said:
This.

Further on, those who are standing with pitchforks raised saying “Ten Hag handled this perfectly!”, “Sancho is an unprofessional twat” “Oh glory the iron-fisted gaffer”, well… I think it was poorly handled by both sides.

It’s a very expensive mistake by Ten Hag. An asset that was bought for 70m or so is now distressed. He has wages for 250k/week.

Rashford, when he was disciplined by Ten Hag, was reportedly 30 seconds late for a meeting. That seems extreme and seems like a finable offense, not missing a game.

We don’t know the extent of what Ten Hag did before he called out Sancho publicly, maybe there were closed door meetings. Sancho was really affected by the abuse he got for missing his penalty at the Euros.

The problem is that I believe this is best handled by the captain, not the manager. It’s easier for the captain to put an arm around the player and ask why they are not training as hard.

My point is that there should be nuance here, and some are not motivated by a heavy hand. It’s up to Ten Hag and the club to get the best out of players and sometimes that involves other tactics.
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https://www.telegraph.co.uk/footbal...hester-city-future-doubt-fails-turn-training/

https://m.sportbild.bild.de/bundesl...er-united-enthuellt-85534382.sportMobile.html

This isn’t even just a thing that’s happened with Ten Hag. His professionalism has been questioned everywhere.
 
BenitoSTARR said:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/footbal...hester-city-future-doubt-fails-turn-training/

https://m.sportbild.bild.de/bundesl...er-united-enthuellt-85534382.sportMobile.html

This isn’t even just a thing that’s happened with Ten Hag. His professionalism has been questioned everywhere.
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The crazy thing is Ten Hag's quotes are one of the tamest pieces of criticism I've ever seen from a manager. So many interpret it as a lack of effort including Sancho himself when in reality he may have just been missing sitters in training or messing about.

"On his performance on training, we didn't select him," Ten Hag said when asked about Sancho's absence from the squad against Arsenal.

"You have to reach the level every day at Manchester United. You can make choices in the front line so in this game he wasn't selected."
 
Sancho can play for reserves if we cant find a club who can buy him. No more loans. If we loan him this season, same will happen next season
 
DSG said:
This.

Further on, those who are standing with pitchforks raised saying “Ten Hag handled this perfectly!”, “Sancho is an unprofessional twat” “Oh glory the iron-fisted gaffer”, well… I think it was poorly handled by both sides.

It’s a very expensive mistake by Ten Hag. An asset that was bought for 70m or so is now distressed. He has wages for 250k/week.

Rashford, when he was disciplined by Ten Hag, was reportedly 30 seconds late for a meeting. That seems extreme and seems like a finable offense, not missing a game.

We don’t know the extent of what Ten Hag did before he called out Sancho publicly, maybe there were closed door meetings. Sancho was really affected by the abuse he got for missing his penalty at the Euros.

The problem is that I believe this is best handled by the captain, not the manager. It’s easier for the captain to put an arm around the player and ask why they are not training as hard.

My point is that there should be nuance here, and some are not motivated by a heavy hand. It’s up to Ten Hag and the club to get the best out of players and sometimes that involves other tactics.
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Sweet jesus.

This isn't an isolated incident, but a result of Sancho being an unprofessional twat over time, which obviously needs to be taken into consideration when talking about Numerous approaches were tried, even sending Sancho away in a hectic period so he could regain fitness and return to the first team. ETH went a long way to protect him and stand behind him. When that type of approach doesn't work, you're left with taking a more aggressive approach in the hope that the player will respond. Sancho was hardly called out either: " “On his performance in training, we didn't select him. You have to reach the level every day at Manchester United.”

"You have to reach the level every day at Manchester United. You can make choices in the front line so in this game he wasn't selected."
"

It's a fairly mild statement, it's also a statement that should be fairly easy to swallow for someone that has had quite the issues with showing up on time, and generally failing miserably to look anything like the player we paid an insane fee for and someone who is extremely well compensated to play football.

And lets not forget that he's also been completely dropped by Southgate due to his lack of professionalism rather than performances.
 
With INEOS apparently wanting a strong British core of players, I wonder if Sancho will be back next season?

I'd happily have him on the right instead of Antony.
 
BenitoSTARR said:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/footbal...hester-city-future-doubt-fails-turn-training/

https://m.sportbild.bild.de/bundesl...er-united-enthuellt-85534382.sportMobile.html

This isn’t even just a thing that’s happened with Ten Hag. His professionalism has been questioned everywhere.
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Well aware of this… yet he was successful at Dortmund twice.

He’s definitely difficult, but so was Becks, Keano, Cantona, Ruud, etc. Figure out how to get the best on him. Of course, he needs to step up too.

People are mad at Sancho for not being professional, yet they are happy to have Antony, who is shit, and was accused by several women of assault and sexual assault.
 
DSG said:
Well aware of this… yet he was successful at Dortmund twice.

He’s definitely difficult, but so was Becks, Keano, Cantona, Ruud, etc. Figure out how to get the best on him. Of course, he needs to step up too.

People are mad at Sancho for not being professional, yet they are happy to have Antony, who is shit, and was accused by several women of assault and sexual assault.
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https://www.scribbr.com/fallacies/straw-man-fallacy/
 
NotChatGPT said:
Sweet jesus.

This isn't an isolated incident, but a result of Sancho being an unprofessional twat over time, which obviously needs to be taken into consideration when talking about Numerous approaches were tried, even sending Sancho away in a hectic period so he could regain fitness and return to the first team. ETH went a long way to protect him and stand behind him. When that type of approach doesn't work, you're left with taking a more aggressive approach in the hope that the player will respond. Sancho was hardly called out either: " “On his performance in training, we didn't select him. You have to reach the level every day at Manchester United.”

"You have to reach the level every day at Manchester United. You can make choices in the front line so in this game he wasn't selected."
"

It's a fairly mild statement, it's also a statement that should be fairly easy to swallow for someone that has had quite the issues with showing up on time, and generally failing miserably to look anything like the player we paid an insane fee for and someone who is extremely well compensated to play football.

And lets not forget that he's also been completely dropped by Southgate due to his lack of professionalism rather than performances.
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Pitchfork. Expensive one.
 
DSG said:
Well aware of this… yet he was successful at Dortmund twice.

He’s definitely difficult, but so was Becks, Keano, Cantona, Ruud, etc. Figure out how to get the best on him. Of course, he needs to step up too.

People are mad at Sancho for not being professional, yet they are happy to have Antony, who is shit, and was accused by several women of assault and sexual assault.
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Noone is 'happy' to have Antony :lol:
 
DSG said:
Well aware of this… yet he was successful at Dortmund twice.

He’s definitely difficult, but so was Becks, Keano, Cantona, Ruud, etc. Figure out how to get the best on him. Of course, he needs to step up too.

People are mad at Sancho for not being professional, yet they are happy to have Antony, who is shit, and was accused by several women of assault and sexual assault.
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People want professionalism before everything else.

Before a ball is kicked, there is a minimum expectation, and sancho failed in that - your named players didn't.

And Antony being accused of sexual assault doesn't make him guilty, what a dimwit post that has feck all to do with sancho.
 
DSG said:
Well aware of this… yet he was successful at Dortmund twice.

He’s definitely difficult, but so was Becks, Keano, Cantona, Ruud, etc. Figure out how to get the best on him. Of course, he needs to step up too.

People are mad at Sancho for not being professional, yet they are happy to have Antony, who is shit, and was accused by several women of assault and sexual assault.
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The difference between them lads and Sancho they probably turned up in training and definitely did on a match day Sancho has done neither in all his time at United seemingly I can't remember when he had a top class 90 under any manager and it seems as though his training has been terrible at the same time
 
VP89 said:
People want professionalism before everything else.

Before a ball is kicked, there is a minimum expectation, and sancho failed in that - your named players didn't.

And Antony being accused of sexual assault doesn't make him guilty, what a dimwit post that has feck all to do with sancho.
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Be interesting to hear the opinions of the other coaches he played under.
 
Walters_19_MuFc said:
Be interesting to hear the opinions of the other coaches he played under.
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He was called out at Dortmund and he gave virtually the same insta post to defend himself. The boy has no shame. Back then he said the same, that he's been "scapegoated".

I think then later he said he had a sleep problem.
 
DSG said:
Well aware of this… yet he was successful at Dortmund twice.

He’s definitely difficult, but so was Becks, Keano, Cantona, Ruud, etc. Figure out how to get the best on him. Of course, he needs to step up too.

People are mad at Sancho for not being professional, yet they are happy to have Antony, who is shit, and was accused by several women of assault and sexual assault.
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And was he successful at United? Did we see any of that despite trying several approaches and a couple of managers?

Many players (most in fact) can’t cope at United. Let him play for Dortmund then for a fee.

There’s difficult and then their is unprofessional. Becks, Keane, Cantona and Ruud I can’t remember ever being considered unprofessional.

Why are you even bringing up Antony? Is it to try and distract from the fact your arguments around Sancho are weak and so you need to deflect elsewhere to maintain a foothold?

The fact is Sancho has a history of unprofessional behaviour, he behaves unprofessionally for us, publicly goes to war with the manager over a minor comment that the manager is well within their rights to make and loses because according to Benni “if you’re from the streets no one wants to apologise”.

Sancho was an incredibly talented young player, failed at United and at 24 is acting like an arrogant teenager in trouble at school and trying to deny wrongdoing in the hopes his teacher backs down. I’m glad Ten Hag held firm. I’d hope any manager would because that mentality from Sancho is not winning us titles regardless of who is manager.
 
PieCrust said:
There's a lot to question about ETH, but this isn't one of them. His man management with both Sancho and Rolando were spot on imo. They both deserved exactly what happened to them. ETH provided an off-ramp for Sancho to get back in the team, and he chose not to do it. ok then, bye.
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Ah that bloody Rolando, what a twat eh?!
 
roonster09 said:
Sancho posted that because EtH said he picked squad based on training performance. Which isn't bad thing to say but If you expect different reaction from player then manager can also learn a thing or two about man management.

Manager lying? Do you think they swore to speak only truth? If EtH said it was minor knock, nothing of this sort would have happened.

As is, i don't care this happened. EtH did what he thought was the best move and Sancho did what he thought was best. No point being so blinded and take sides. Both of them should go for same reason.
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Disagree - and to the earlier point, Sancho could have easily accused him of lying about the knock and we could end up with the same situation. EtH should not have to lie on Sancho's behalf when he's not pulling his weight.

I think both of them should go, but for EtH it's about poor team performances rather than this incident.

EtH said his performances in training weren't good enough for selection, didn't even mention unprofessionalism or anything of the sort. It's a valid thing to say about reasons for not selecting a player. Sancho had to go and throw a tantrum on social media - there's no way a manager should be accepting that.

In fact, I'm pretty sure he's said something about Antony's levels not being where they're meant to be more recently. Managers say things like this and they pass without incident. Sancho decided to made it a drama and refused to concede, would be great if he showed half that fight in games.
 
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