Erik ten Hag | 2024/25 | Votes can now be changed

Erik ten Hag

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VP89 said:
You can generalise as much as you want about behavior and cherry pick which posts are serious and which are worth chuckling at - but when I asked of a single illustrative example, you shot yourself in the foot by hanging your hat on what was actually an uncontroversial take. The post you decided to claim is some sort of excuse for the manager was actually a common view and that speaks volumes about your agenda more than it does about my reasoning.

After this, shot yourself in the foot (again) by calling me a supporter for rival clubs when the decision makers are doing the same thing. You then claimed its different if Sir Jim Ratcliffe does it but if you ask someone "if you're Sir Jim, what would you do", they can't give the same answer. I don't know what logic that is but it's quite funny to look back and just see your reasoning.

I'd challenge you to find any other example of my "strawmaning" or "excusing" for this season but I am near certain you'll just shoot yourself in the foot again.

On the operational reasons to delay, there is probably some. Maybe not all under the operational umbrella but there's a plethora of reasons to see how the next 2 games go than to sack after Spurs.
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Nope, shooting yourself in the foot is using a 0-0 draw with Palace to claim things are on the up just before a 0-3 humiliation at home to Spurs.

I literally just gave you an example of you strawmanning and you ignored it:

You said: “and in your own words you think they may have operational reason to”

And I replied with: “And once again, I have never in my own words said they may have an operational reason to delay - I was arguing the exact opposite. It was the person I was arguing with that was claiming there were operational reasons to delay.”
 
Zumbi said:
Nope, shooting yourself in the foot is using a 0-0 draw with Palace to claim things are on the up just before a 0-3 humiliation at home to Spurs.
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You think that finding the Palace performance (note, performance not result) as encouraging is excusing the manager. That's very laughable considering it was a widely thought opinion by those at the game and well respected supporters too. It speaks a lot more about you than it does about me, lets put it that way.

Zumbi said:
I literally just gave you an example of you strawmanning and you ignored it:
You said: “and in your own words you think they may have operational reason to”

And I replied with: “And once again, I have never in my own words said they may have an operational reason to delay - I was arguing the exact opposite. It was the person I was arguing with that was claiming there were operational reasons to delay.”
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They may have operational and other reasons to wait a bit longer - that's not strawmanning. There are many reasons to not pull the trigger just yet - it's just not plausible to posters who foam at the mouth more and more each day Ten Hag stays in the job.
 
devilish said:
As a player he played with numerous top clubs including PSV, Manchester United and Real. He worked under Hiddink as Holland's no 2. It was a short stint but I reckon he learnt more under Hiddink than Carrick could possibly learn out of Ole at the wheel and he managed the second biggest team in the Eredivise where he even won a cup there..
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Well, Ole played for United winning numerous trophies and working under Fergie. Didn’t do him any good in the eyes of many fans. So I wouldn’t read anything into working a short stint under Hiddink.

Yes Ruud won a cup but he wasn’t ready for that level of responsibility and said so himself. His team had no style or structure and many complaints from PSV fans before he stepped down. Sound familiar?

Not making a case for Carrick, I’m saying Ruud isn’t anything other than a legend from his playing career. The jury is still out on coaching and management.
 
golden_blunder said:
Well, Ole played for United winning numerous trophies and working under Fergie. Didn’t do him any good in the eyes of many fans. So I wouldn’t read anything into working a short stint under Hiddink.

Yes Ruud won a cup but he wasn’t ready for that level of responsibility and said so himself. His team had no style or structure and many complaints from PSV fans before he stepped down. Sound familiar?

Not making a case for Carrick, I’m saying Ruud isn’t anything other than a legend from his playing career. The jury is still out on coaching and management.
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I was referring to him as a temporary manager. I don't think that either of them is anywhere near to the permanent role. Out of the former players/coaches tclosest to that would be mckenna
 
I'm increasingly concerned that EtH is here to stay for at least as long as it takes for us to be mathematically out of every competition.

There's been so much silence around this and I very much suspect he'll go nowhere even if we lose the next two games badly.
 
VP89 said:
You think that finding the Palace performance (note, performance not result) as encouraging is excusing the manager. That's very laughable considering it was a widely thought opinion by those at the game and well respected supporters too. It speaks a lot more about you than it does about me, lets put it that way.


They may have operational and other reasons to wait a bit longer - that's not strawmanning. There are many reasons to not pull the trigger just yet - it's just not plausible to posters who foam at the mouth more and more each day Ten Hag stays in the job.
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No. In other posts I quoted specific examples of you using the exact same excuses that I had listed in a post taking the piss out of all the changing excuses Ten Hag defenders had gone through (injuries, not finishing chances etc). I don’t give credence to opinions based on how common or popular they are - I judge them on their merits.

Do you understand what strawmanning is? Your reply above suggests you don’t.

You claimed I said something I never said and tried using it that in an argument against me. That is textbook strawmanning.
 
devilish said:
I was referring to him as a temporary manager. I don't think that either of them is anywhere near to the permanent role. Out of the former players/coaches tclosest to that would be mckenna
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If it’s interims you’re talking about then yeah because carrick wouldn’t be available for interim anyway. Which makes that conversation pointless.
 
Erik Ten Hag 'we have been in transition for 3 years'

We have been hiding behind transition and projects. It comes from winning and not saying we are building for 3 years

 
VeryPrecious89 said:
The highlight of the trip was Nandos :lol:
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Sadly, yes! ha. We have a few Nando's in Ireland but closest one is two hours away from me so it's kind of a thing I always do in England.
Doracle said:
8 of that team were players that he has purchased/brought through though. Of the others, one he made captain. I don’t think it can be any excuse for ETH if his own players aren’t showing effort. It’s yet another mark against him.
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There is that. I've never seen them play as bad I did Sunday.
 
Zumbi said:
No. In other posts I quoted specific examples of you using the exact same excuses that I had listed in a post taking the piss out of all the changing excuses Ten Hag defenders had gone through (injuries, not finishing chances etc). I don’t give credence to opinions based on how common or popular they are - I judge them on their merits.
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Your memory is bad, so I'll remind you.
You gave hazy generalizations and chuckled at various categories of excusing the manager. I entered the debate, asked you to point out an example of me excusing the manager, and you came out with the beauty about Palace. This is where you shot yourself in the foot. You outed yourself as the very thing you accused me of - irrational and agenda driven, blinded by your stance of the manager rather than actually see what is being posted.
Zumbi said:
Do you understand what strawmanning is? Your reply above suggests you don’t.

You claimed I said something I never said and tried using it that in an argument against me. That is textbook strawmanning.
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You seem to struggle to differentiate between a strawman argument and human error. I'm more than happy to say fair enough if you didnt think there's an operational reason to sack the coach (although I disagree).
But your logic that if I say I'd sack Ten Hag if results are unimproved by the internationals then I'm an opposition fan, whereas if the owners do it then it's fine - is stone cold bollocks. If you asked Andy Mitten right now, he would probably have the same opinion and hes well respected. This isn't about right or wrong, its about respecting the other view without resorting to sensationalism. Something you struggle with.

A true strawman argument is your example with the Palace post. You took it as an excuse for the manager when that is not the point or the assertion being made. The very definition of strawmanning. The irony of it all is you are trying to explain what it means to others.
 
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pocco said:
If it was made known that they're working on a permanent replacement then I'd be happy. If it was a case of revisit in summer, less so. But I'd probably still prefer it than keep Ten Hag as at least Ruud has some likeable qualities and he'd get the fans behind him. I'd always be worried if Ole 2.0 happening though.
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Yeah that's a very valid concern
 
VP89 said:
Your memory is bad, so I'll remind you.
You gave hazy generalizations and chuckled at various categories of excusing the manager. I entered the debate, asked you to point out an example of me excusing the manager, and you came out with the beauty about Palace. This is where you shot yourself in the foot. You outed yourself as the very thing you accused me of - irrational and agenda driven, blinded by your stance of the manager to actually see what is being posted.

You seem to struggle to differentiate between a strawman argument and human error. I'm more than happy to say fair enough if you didnt think there's an operational reason to sack the coach (although I disagree).
But your logic that if I say I'd sack Ten Hag if results are unimproved by the internationals then I'm an opposition fan, whereas if the owners do it then it's fine - is stone cold bollocks. If you asked Andy Mitten right now, he would probably have the same opinion and hes well respected. This isn't about right or wrong, its about respecting the other view without resorting to sensationalism. Something you struggle with.

A true strawman argument is your example with the Palace post. You took it as an excuse for the manager when that is not the point or the assertion being made. The very definition of strawmanning. The irony of it all is you are trying to explain what it means to others.
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You’ve been making excuses for Ten Hag for the best part of the last year! Again, this goes far beyond one post. That was literally my point.

You can claim that was a one off error and not a deliberate straw man, but again, you have form of doing the same thing again and again over an extended period of time. Every time I end up in a back and forth with you I have to repeatedly say “no, I didn’t say that” and quote the evidence back at you before you move on.
 
No matter how persistently poor the results and performances may be, it seems likely now that ETH is going nowhere anytime soon.
 
Zumbi said:
You’ve been making excuses for Ten Hag for the best part of the last year! Again, this goes far beyond one post. That was literally my point.
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And yet the illustrative example that I asked for from you is strawman logic - I find funny irony in that.
I'm not denying I was excusing Ten Hag for extended periods last season. My whole view was he had 1 good season, 1 bad season and I wanted to see this season. This was supported later by decision makers at the club at the time. We are probably wrong to back him but that doesn't mean the view was without any basis.
I have not excused him this season and I've held him accountable. You choose to "chuckle" at points I made that held him accountable, that acknowledged he was on thin ice and that said he needed results immediately. You selectively read post and seem to struggle with understanding the views of others.
Zumbi said:
You can claim that was a one off error and not a deliberate straw man, but again, you have form of doing the same thing again and again over an extended period of time. Every time I end up in a back and forth with you I have to repeatedly say “no, I didn’t say that” and quote the evidence back at you before you move on.
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Again, you are just generalizing. See above. I asked for a single example and you put your hat on something that was literally strawman logic. Then, you accused me of supporting another club because of logic thats consistent not only with decision makers but some other supporters. Good work.
 
lex talionis said:
No matter how persistently poor the results and performances may be, it seems likely now that ETH is going nowhere anytime soon.
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I’d say it’s more likely than not that he isn’t manager this time next week.
 
Sarni said:
These fecking players are letting him down so badly. They already got Moyes, van Gaal, Mourinho and now they are trying to do the same to Erik simply because he’s asking too much from them.

We should do this before we even start questioning his position:

- Give him the money to overhaul the squad, prioritizing his former players that he knows he can trust. I would say £550m over 3 years
- Allow him to sell these fecking players so they don’t stink up the place anymore
- Let him promote the best of our promising crop of youngsters

Once all of this is done and he can field a team where 7-8 players are of his own choice, only then we can judge him.
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Cant argue with any of that but my point still stands, the players need to do more too and actually put some effort in
 
VP89 said:
And yet the illustrative example that I asked for from you is strawman logic - I find funny irony in that.
I'm not denying I was excusing Ten Hag for extended periods last season. My whole view was he had 1 good season, 1 bad season and I wanted to see this season. This was supported later by decision makers at the club at the time. We are probably wrong to back him but that doesn't mean the view was without any basis.
I have not excused him this season and I've held him accountable. You choose to "chuckle" at points I made that held him accountable, that acknowledged he was on thin ice and that said he needed results immediately. You selectively read post and seem to struggle with understanding the views of others.

Again, you are just generalizing. See above. I asked for a single example and you put your hat on something that was literally strawman logic. Then, you accused me of supporting another club because of logic thats consistent not only with decision makers but some other supporters. Good work.
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That’s not a straw man. You actually said those things.
 
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M Bison said:
Cant argue with any of that but my point still stands, the players need to do more too and actually put some effort in
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I don’t think it’s a problem. They are set up horribly, have been for the last couple of years, and it shows. It’s no coincidence that every single player that joins us is almost immediately worse, and even the youngsters we brought through last year (Garnacho, Mainoo) seem like they aren’t actually making much progress either.

It’s also manager’s job to keep their players motivated.
 
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