Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[UpWithRivers]

I know we dont have the best players to play out from the back but some of our failures has to do with tactics. If Brighton can be a 9/10 for playing out with Webster, Dunk, Steele then surely we can surely do better than 2/10. We are absolutely trash. Some of it has to do with training and tactics. Ensuring triangles and options etc. Put it this way. Could Pep or De Zerbi get our current back 4 playing out better? I would think so. We make the same mistake over and over and there is no solution except boot it. I dont understand why

 

[SilentWitness]

We spent £230m in the summer lads, stop saying he wasn't backed.

Brighton spent £45m.

Tbf, Brighton are always a bad comparison when it comes to spending money as they don't buy players for a manager, they buy players for Brighton. They have a clear philosophy running through the club that allows seamless transition from one to the next. United haven't had that since SAF which is why you're regularly spunking 100m+.

 

[SilentWitness]

I know we dont have the best players to play out from the back but some of our failures has to do with tactics. If Brighton can be a 9/10 for playing out with Webster, Dunk, Steele then surely we can surely do better than 2/10. We are absolutely trash. Some of it has to do with training and tactics. Ensuring triangles and options etc. Put it this way. Could Pep or De Zerbi get our current back 4 playing out better? I would think so. We make the same mistake over and over and there is no solution except boot it. I dont understand why

Brighton aren't a club that have suddenly started to play this way under De Zerbi. The foundations were laid with Potter and there were a few seasons of struggle still as they built up to be comfortable in that tactical shape and playing in that manner. De Zerbi has come in and tweaked it and made it better but it takes time. It's not an overnight solution.

 

[UpWithRivers]

Brighton aren't a club that have suddenly started to play this way under De Zerbi. The foundations were laid with Potter and there were a few seasons of struggle still as they built up to be comfortable in that tactical shape and playing in that manner. De Zerbi has come in and tweaked it and made it better but it takes time. It's not an overnight solution.

Sure. But over a season you would think Ten Haag would get some improvement. Just a bit. Its as bad as it ever was. Im not expecting us to play like Brighton or City but for the love of football we are so bad. We give the ball away at the edge of our box 2/3 times a game! Is there a worse team in the league at playing out from the back? I dont think so. Maybe equally as bad but not worse

 

[kouroux]

Yesterday is not really a huge issue. We lost to a freak last gasp goal from a penalty, having played decently in the first half and naturally being out of breath in the second half because of how the squad had been managed prior to that. It was actually a much better performance than I anticipated against a very solid, in-form Brighton team, I was expecting us to get hammered there.

I didn't expect to get hammered but I expect a complete capitulation by the 2nd half in terms of possession and intensity

 

[kouroux]

Sure. But over a season you would think Ten Haag would get some improvement. Just a bit. Its as bad as it ever was. Im not expecting us to play like Brighton or City but for the love of football we are so bad. We give the ball away at the edge of our box 2/3 times a game!

The answer to this by those blindly supporting ETH would be that during a WC year witha very congested schedule, we haven't had much training.
Personally I think it's perfect excuse to justify the non existent improvement. Individual quality of players has improved when all fit but as a team ? The football is inconsistent

 

[Judas]

I didn't expect to get hammered but I expect a complete capitulation by the 2nd half in terms of possession and intensity

This trend has been going on long enough that when we wasted chances in the first half, I thought it was more likely we'd lose or draw in the second, purely due to how its gone most games for the last what few months it feels like?

At this point I just want us to drag ourselves over the line in the top 4 and the season to end.

 

[giggs-beckham]

Why do they have a better team?

How do Brighton look miles ahead of us when it comes to playing out from the back and pressing?

It's just concerning. People keep talking about Ten Hag sacrificing and reverting to pragmatism, but by all accounts, he wants De Gea to stay. He insisted in bringing in Weghorst and then playing him almost every game.

Agreed I don't see much evidence that it's pragmatism. Seems like a hopeful guess to me. We'd see steady progress in possession, movement into space and press but there isn't enough for me.

 

[Garethw]

I’m not seeing the progress that others are.

 

[SilentWitness]

Sure. But over a season you would think Ten Haag would get some improvement. Just a bit. Its as bad as it ever was. Im not expecting us to play like Brighton or City but for the love of football we are so bad. We give the ball away at the edge of our box 2/3 times a game! Is there a worse team in the league at playing out from the back? I dont think so. Maybe equally as bad but not worse

There will be teething problems as players get transitioned out of the side. Let's be honest here, do we expect Lindelof, De Gea, AWB, Fred etc. to be long term Ten Hag players? No, as you'd expect of a bunch of the first players Potter had at the helm at Brighton.

 

[VP89]

Well it is on both. We are agreed the club is a shambles but FDJ didn't want to come so why did he waste so long on it? It was the entire summer almost of will he won't he.

Hopefully this summer things will be different and more prepared but given the uncertainty over the sale of the club I doubt it will be any different personally.

Again, no because whilst the FDJ pursuit was ongoing Ten Hag was busy preparing the squad on pre-season.
Andy Mitten said there were many trips to Barcelona by Richard Arnold. If Arnold failed to get the indication of likelihood of the transfer, that's on him.

 

[ti vu]

I know we dont have the best players to play out from the back but some of our failures has to do with tactics. If Brighton can be a 9/10 for playing out with Webster, Dunk, Steele then surely we can surely do better than 2/10. We are absolutely trash. Some of it has to do with training and tactics. Ensuring triangles and options etc. Put it this way. Could Pep or De Zerbi get our current back 4 playing out better? I would think so. We make the same mistake over and over and there is no solution except boot it. I dont understand why

4th conceded goal from backpass mistake.

1st goal, boot the ball long. Lost possession and got countered. The defenders all over the place.

2nd goal, getting everyone back into the box, letting Leicester attempt a long throw in that create havoc.

Does it look like nowadays Man City? People tend to forget how other teams look in early state. City got thumped

What you forget is this is our makeshift CB pair. It takes time to gel. It's more difficult for the back to gel. Better players in makeshift team may perform worse than average players that familiar with their roles, having match rhythm.

In above example, it's very similar in how Leceister was the more well oiled team, performed better in one off game but City had better players, and overall got better result to finish higher.

 

[giggs-beckham]

We probably can’t afford to sign two goalkeepers. Heaton isn’t really a good enough back up so the best option for now is lowering DDG’a wages and phasing him out.

How do we know for sure he isn't good enough?

 

[Mmm-Qatarian]

Brighton aren't a club that have suddenly started to play this way under De Zerbi. The foundations were laid with Potter and there were a few seasons of struggle still as they built up to be comfortable in that tactical shape and playing in that manner. De Zerbi has come in and tweaked it and made it better but it takes time. It's not an overnight solution.

This is correct.

The groundwork was at least largely already in place when De Zerbi took over at Brighton. That is not to discredit the fantastic work he's done in building on that groundwork; Brighton are an absolutely fantastic side and he deserves huge praise for that.

However, as you've pointed out, Brighton have been an exceptionally run club for a while now. They have an overarching culture and style of play that they're trying to implement, and both players and staff are recruited on that basis. That has not been the case at United for a long time now.

I think the comparison between us and Brighton is actually a very fair one to make, but their respective managers is the wrong place to anchor it.

 

[UpWithRivers]

There will be teething problems as players get transitioned out of the side. Let's be honest here, do we expect Lindelof, De Gea, AWB, Fred etc. to be long term Ten Hag players? No, as you'd expect of a bunch of the first players Potter had at the helm at Brighton.

So don't expect improvement until every player is a Ten Haag player. Ok. See you in 3/4 years.

 

[Borys]

All things considered I was hoping we would be a better team at this (final) stage of the season. I agree most of the improvement came from signing the right players, but maybe this is what good managers do these days - pick the right players for the team.

We've definitely improved our game but still seems like we're not good at moving the ball through pressing. A lot of that part of the game relies on some key players, and as Brighton presented yesterday, that can be done without world class players all over the pitch.

My biggest fear is this team "success" this season relies on old midfielders. I was really hoping ETH in first season will find some players that can be foundation for years to come. And I don't mean signing Caicedo for 150m, because as much as I'd love him here, we will not outspend other clubs.

I think this summer will be very telling. I am a bit disappointed with lack of chances to the youngsters when we clearly lack some quality in midfield and attack.

 

[crossy1686]

There will be teething problems as players get transitioned out of the side. Let's be honest here, do we expect Lindelof, De Gea, AWB, Fred etc. to be long term Ten Hag players? No, as you'd expect of a bunch of the first players Potter had at the helm at Brighton.

A good coach should be able to coach some of the players we have into ‘his’ players. We can’t go out and spend £200m every summer on players that are exclusively Dutch or from the Dutch league and hope it works out. When Ten Hag gets sacked we’ll have to do it all again until the next manager has ‘his’ players also.

 

[kouroux]

All things considered I was hoping we would be a better team at this (final) stage of the season. I agree most of the improvement came from signing the right players, but maybe this is what good managers do these days - pick the right players for the team.

We've definitely improved our game but still seems like we're not good at moving the ball through pressing. A lot of that part of the game relies on some key players, and as Brighton presented yesterday, that can be done without world class players all over the pitch.

My biggest fear is this team "success" this season relies on old midfielders. I was really hoping ETH in first season will find some players that can be foundation for years to come. And I don't mean signing Caicedo for 150m, because as much as I'd love him here, we will not outspend other clubs.

I think this summer will be very telling. I am a bit disappointed with lack of chances to the youngsters when we clearly lack some quality in midfield and attack.

Let's hope we look beyond the Eredivise for those hidden gems

 

[kouroux]

A good coach should be able to coach some of the players we have into ‘his’ players. We can’t go out and spend £200m every summer on players that are exclusively Dutch or from the Dutch league and hope it works out. When Ten Hag gets sacked we’ll have to do it all again until the next manager has ‘his’ players also.

Or not to stuck to his ways and change his philosophy if the players aren't the one who could optimally play his favorite football.
Managing a club cannot just be about buying the right players

 

[SilentWitness]

So don't expect improvement until every player is a Ten Haag player. Ok. See you in 3/4 years.

Majority will be, yeah, because you've spent money on crap.

A good coach should be able to coach some of the players we have into ‘his’ players. We can’t go out and spend £200m every summer on players that are exclusively Dutch or from the Dutch league and hope it works out. When Ten Hag gets sacked we’ll have to do it all again until the next manager has ‘his’ players also.

That's my point though. Brighton don't have a philosophy of Potter players or De Zerbi players. They have a philosophy of Brighton players and they fit both Potter and De Zerbi because they have similar ideals albeit De Zerbi with an extension of those ideals that work better. A lot of Ole regime players weren't bought for a specific style really, so if you want to go a Ten Hag style or make that into the new United style for the future to have transition, yeah, you'll need to buy more.

 

[crossy1686]

Or not to stuck to his ways and change his philosophy if the players aren't the one who could optimally play his favorite football.
Managing a club cannot just be about buying the right players

I dared to suggest this when starting Maguire at the back but I was told in no uncertain circumstances it’s not the right thing to do as it’s a short term fix to make bad players look good and win games when we’re trying to implement Ten Hag ball…

 

[Solius]

How do we know for sure he isn't good enough?

I mean we don't for definite but do you really want your backup to be someone who is 37 and has played two full games since 2020?

 

[crossy1686]

Majority will be, yeah, because you've spent money on crap.



That's my point though. Brighton don't have a philosophy of Potter players or De Zerbi players. They have a philosophy of Brighton players and they fit both Potter and De Zerbi because they have similar ideals albeit De Zerbi with an extension of those ideals that work better. A lot of Ole regime players weren't bought for a specific style really, so if you want to go a Ten Hag style or make that into the new United style for the future to have transition, yeah, you'll need to buy more.

Or we could just stop playing football that doesn’t work for half the current available first team and focus on winning games until we can replace them with players that can play the way we want to play?

 

[SilentWitness]

Or we could just stop playing football that doesn’t work for half the current available first team and focus on winning games until we can replace them with players that can play the way we want to play?

and pause the process further? It's better to maintain that philosophy for those that will stay so when players are bought to fit it they seamlessly manage to fit in.

 

[sullydnl]

Or we could just stop playing football that doesn’t work for half the current available first team and focus on winning games until we can replace them with players that can play the way we want to play?

1) ETH has already compromised his approach to suit our squad this season. The way we play versus his Ajax side are very different, based on the weaknesses of the side.

2) That approach has us on course for a successful season. Still heavy favourites to secure top four, one domestic cup won, in the final of another.

Why on earth would we ask that he did anything differently? His approach has worked. If anything we just be looking forward to having to work around fewer compromises going forward, not lamenting that he didn't hinder the team's progress by compromising more.

Because he has certainly compromised more than the likes of Pep and Klopp did upon arrival at their current clubs.

 

[ti vu]

A good coach should be able to coach some of the players we have into ‘his’ players. We can’t go out and spend £200m every summer on players that are exclusively Dutch or from the Dutch league and hope it works out. When Ten Hag gets sacked we’ll have to do it all again until the next manager has ‘his’ players also.

That is plain wrong. A coach can only coach players in his method. Whether the players can contribute in that system is all about his talent and compatibility.

What need to be done is the club needs to buy players that fits its philosophy. Coach share same principles would make use of the players with his coaching.

The recruitment team at the club need to do their job. Can't just rely on ETH to identify target. However, he needs to have his say on the profile of players.

The question is whether our Football Director has a philosophy, or he's leaving ETH to do the heavy lifting again

 

[kouroux]

I dared to suggest this when starting Maguire at the back but I was told in no uncertain circumstances it’s not the right thing to do as it’s a short term fix to make bad players look good and win games when we’re trying to implement Ten Hag ball…

It's never healthy to be dogmatic when it comes to football. ETH is still also learning and I hope that despite the future players he might get, if a game requires a certain way of playing that he just adapts to it. Playing it from the back cannot all the time with any player, it's just stupid and rigid thinking

 

[LordSpud]

Bounce Back FC is back yet again.

 

[kouroux]

and pause the process further? It's better to maintain that philosophy for those that will stay so when players are bought to fit it they seamlessly manage to fit in.

Asking the team to play it longer the few times Maguire start isn't pausing any processes. Forcing a keeper like DDG to play a game he isn't suited for is crazy to me.

 

[SilentWitness]

Asking the team to play it longer the few times Maguire start isn't pausing any processes. Forcing a keeper like DDG to play a game he isn't suited for is crazy to me.

As @sullydnl has said, he's made small tweaks like this in games/with players.

 

[Offside]

Ten Hag clearly doesn’t trust 50% of this squad.

 

[Waynne]

IT's different for a Brighton or a Brentford to be able to effectively gamble on these type of players. They have the luxury of not having high expectations, either from the media or their fans. We could (and have) signed young players from other leagues, but they have to be ready from the start to hit the ground running and be able to handle the expectation of being a first team player at the most scrutinised club in the world when it comes to media and opposition fans dying to stick the knife in.

We don;t have the luxury of playing a young player into form, especially in the central areas. We have done that effectively with Garnacho, but that's because he's a top level talent, but he still needed time to settle and we had the luxury of an easy cup run to be able to do that.

Ah I forgot the pressure of the badge on a young player. Point taken.

 

[UpWithRivers]

4th conceded goal from backpass mistake.

1st goal, boot the ball long. Lost possession and got countered. The defenders all over the place.

2nd goal, getting everyone back into the box, letting Leicester attempt a long throw in that create havoc.

Does it look like nowadays Man City? People tend to forget how other teams look in early state. City got thumped

What you forget is this is our makeshift CB pair. It takes time to gel. It's more difficult for the back to gel. Better players in makeshift team may perform worse than average players that familiar with their roles, having match rhythm.

In above example, it's very similar in how Leceister was the more well oiled team, performed better in one off game but City had better players, and overall got better result to finish higher.

Yes but you could see what Pep was doing very early on. It wasn't working but the plans were in place. Same with Arteta. You could see the shapes and the planning and the tactics. It just never clicked yet. Do you see any plan, tactics or anything with our build up? Its always the exact same. Split the CB's either side of De Gea. The Left CB passes to De Gea. De Gea then either boots it or tries to pass either to RB or whoever is coming towards him at the edge of the box. That player is usually closely marked and the tries to offload quickly and loses it. Rinse and repeat. Its obvious and its really bad. Its not a worked out plan that just needs world class players. It needs a better plan

 

[kouroux]

As @sullydnl has said, he's made small tweaks like this in games/with players.

So small we can't see them.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Or we could just stop playing football that doesn’t work for half the current available first team and focus on winning games until we can replace them with players that can play the way we want to play?

What do you mean?

We don't try to keep the ball vs the top teams. We press here and there, but we're not adamant in playing out from the back.

Ten Hag gave up on that a long while ago. We beat City at OT with sub 30% possession. We had sub 40% vs Arsenal in both games.

 

[Kaos]

I still support him and think he's the man to drive the club forward. Though I'd prefer we don't leave recruitment solely to him.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

I still support him and think he's the man to drive the club forward. Though I'd prefer we don't leave recruitment solely to him.

If we do, we've learned absolutely nothing.

In all honesty, he should have minimal say in recruitment. His record is already dodgy as it is regarding recruitment.

 

[DownRiver]

What does Ben Mcarthy actually do? Your are not just their buddy mate, please practice shooting!

 

[ti vu]

Yes but you could see what Pep was doing very early on. It wasn't working but the plans were in place. Same with Arteta. You could see the shapes and the planning and the tactics. It just never clicked yet. Do you see any plan, tactics or anything with our build up? Its always the exact same. Split the CB's either side of De Gea. The Left CB passes to De Gea. De Gea then either boots it or tries to pass either to RB or whoever is coming towards him at the edge of the box. That player is usually closely marked and the tries to offload quickly and loses it. Rinse and repeat. Its obvious and its really bad. Its not a worked out plan that just needs world class players. It needs a better plan

I am not sure you're any serious here.

Man City plan was different back then than what they had after the following summer, and the nowadays Man City.

Koralov kicking long, conceding possession after Leicester won an aerial duel, just for City defense easiy done by Leicester quick interchange. How often you see City kick long like that nowadays?

Why did City sit back in their box defending a throw in that is closer to half way line than to their box? Do they still do this now? I certainly don't recall.

If you think we never try to play out of the back with short pass when Varane and Lisandro Martinez were still in the team then nothing I can say. Whatever that float your boat.

 

[Mmm-Qatarian]

I find it extremely bizarre that there are people in here who seemingly believe we've made no improvement from last season...