Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[Djemba-Djemba]

Think I would say Everton away, Chelsea home, second half of Villa home and first half of Spurs away. Struggling to think of any other league games where we played well

Up until the rashford penalty to make it 2-0 away to Everton I thought they were by far the better side.

Garnacho scored the wonder goal overhead kick about 5 minutes in and then Everton battered us for the rest of the first half. I personally wouldn't call that a good performance overall, although the last half hour was pretty comfortable as Everton seemed to give up when it went 2-0.

Either way though I agree, it's a pathetically small number of games where we've played well this season.

 

[Atheist]

It’s quite interesting any success that happens is Ten Hag’s while failures are shared between players and the club structure. If he takes the credit for the last achievement (which is supposedly incredible), then he absolutely needs to take massive or all of the blame for this season.

Good and great managers are able to adapt tactically to various situations like injuries, lack of transfer funds and get the team playing well. If they can’t, they need to go. We cannot go on another spending splurge where Ten Hag gets to have a massive say in the players being signed. His transfer record so far is bordering on abject failure and we cannot afford more of it.

 

[MadDogg]

I am addressing your point about Weghorst. He was awful and you are pretending he was OK and helped the balance of the team, he didn't. It was like playing with 10 men, even a negative given he couldnt hold or retain the ball.

Wout was ok for the first dozen games. Or to be more exact, he was about 50/50 between decent and bad in those games, which was about the same ratio as most of the team so it'd be harsh to hold it against him. So for those first dozen games he did look an acceptable emergency signing that did provide some benefits for the team.

After that he was almost exclusively bad to terrible for the rest of the season though.

 

[Stig]

Again this is a fallacy! It doesn't matter what if but yeah but no but yeah but woulda coulda. The poster and many others hailed Madrids display last night. Madrid played tactics ETH did to a T against city 6 weeks ago.

You people are not serious people. I'm going to expand the ignore list.

But, weren't Madrid simply atrocious last night and somewhat lucky ?

 

[MadDogg]

Surely if we had a choice between replacing ten Hag with either Southgate, Potter or Mourinho (the only three choices apparently available to us) and only upgrading 2 or 3 players OR keeping ten Hag and upgrading 8 or 9 players, surely it would have to be the latter.

What a strange post.

Firstly, why would they be the only three choices available? And where have you pulled Mourinho from?

Secondly, why would replacing ETH be the difference between 2-3 players and 8-9? Replacing ETH will cost us £9m at the absolute most if we replace him after the season, and almost certainly less since he likely has a clause in his contract where he's cheaper to sack if we don't make CL. So it's not a financial decision. And if it's a 'the new manager will give all the players a chance while ETH will get rid of them', we will be signing more than 2-3 players and probably less than 8-9 no matter who is the manager. And considering that some of the players that fans want to get rid of seem to be some of ETH's favourites, an argument could easily be made that a new manager is more likely to get rid of them.

 

[Stig]

These comparisons to Ancelotti miss the mark in the same way the prior comparisons to Fergie, Klopp, Pep, and Arteta also missed the mark. It seems like some posters can't (or won't) wrap their heads around the concept of existing goodwill / "credit in the bank".

Did Madrid intentionally park the bus last night or were they so poor that they simply couldn't get out of defensive.

I think there was quite a bit of, they defended as it was the only option available to them.

 

[Stig]

A what? I had accusations of WUMing whilst posting a positive perspective on the Bournemouth game. I even got a warning from a mod that though I took the mickey, wich only after some discussion was removed. Why is it so hard for people to see there are different views? Despite red, this still isn't MAO land? The personal attacks. Do I attack people for not supporting ETH?




Ah. But ETH is deemed bad because of A. "no control, low possesion stats" and plenty of shots against during a game.

Real Madrid, Godly real Madrid, had 33 shots against and only 37% possesion last night. They didn't get out of their box all game. The exact same tactics as Ten Hag played vs City march 3 just 6 weeks ago

Yet somehow now we need to hire Ancelotti.

Why is it okay for Madrid to show that kind of game and not Ten Hag? Can you explain that one for me?

The frustration is getting rather on person Erik ten Hag than on facts, it seems, bar a few exceptions.

Why isn't a mod up voting this newbie ? He's making good discussion. Lack a USA Shock Jock.

 

[croadyman]

Up until the rashford penalty to make it 2-0 away to Everton I thought they were by far the better side.

Garnacho scored the wonder goal overhead kick about 5 minutes in and then Everton battered us for the rest of the first half. I personally wouldn't call that a good performance overall, although the last half hour was pretty comfortable as Everton seemed to give up when it went 2-0.

Either way though I agree, it's a pathetically small number of games where we've played well this season.

Yeah actually I remember them having a huge number of shots,so that scoreline flatters us massively

 

[TrebleChamp99]

A what? I had accusations of WUMing whilst posting a positive perspective on the Bournemouth game. I even got a warning from a mod that though I took the mickey, wich only after some discussion was removed. Why is it so hard for people to see there are different views? Despite red, this still isn't MAO land? The personal attacks. Do I attack people for not supporting ETH?




Ah. But ETH is deemed bad because of A. "no control, low possesion stats" and plenty of shots against during a game.

Real Madrid, Godly real Madrid, had 33 shots against and only 37% possesion last night. They didn't get out of their box all game. The exact same tactics as Ten Hag played vs City march 3 just 6 weeks ago

Yet somehow now we need to hire Ancelotti.

Why is it okay for Madrid to show that kind of game and not Ten Hag? Can you explain that one for me?

The frustration is getting rather on person Erik ten Hag than on facts, it seems, bar a few exceptions.

Madrid wouldn’t play like that against the likes of Brentford and Bournemouth, we do under ten hag.

 

[AndySmith1990]

A what? I had accusations of WUMing whilst posting a positive perspective on the Bournemouth game. I even got a warning from a mod that though I took the mickey, wich only after some discussion was removed. Why is it so hard for people to see there are different views? Despite red, this still isn't MAO land? The personal attacks. Do I attack people for not supporting ETH?




Ah. But ETH is deemed bad because of A. "no control, low possesion stats" and plenty of shots against during a game.

Real Madrid, Godly real Madrid, had 33 shots against and only 37% possesion last night. They didn't get out of their box all game. The exact same tactics as Ten Hag played vs City march 3 just 6 weeks ago

Yet somehow now we need to hire Ancelotti.

Why is it okay for Madrid to show that kind of game and not Ten Hag? Can you explain that one for me?

The frustration is getting rather on person Erik ten Hag than on facts, it seems, bar a few exceptions.

"different views" isn't a defense for talking utter rubbish to the point it comes across as being a wum.

You say certain things that simply make no sense or are factually incorrect. Hiding behind "opinion" doesn't cut it. But it at least gets you attention, which I guess is the main reason anyone on the Internet has controversial and senseless opinions

 

[stevoc]

I think we probably have to change managers, but if you think someone will come in and have these players playing consistent good football in short order, you‘ll be disappointed (once again).

Hopefully they'll have us playing to a level within 2 years where we are at the very least not getting played off the park by Brentford, Bournemouth and the likes regularly.

 

[pocco]

A what? I had accusations of WUMing whilst posting a positive perspective on the Bournemouth game. I even got a warning from a mod that though I took the mickey, wich only after some discussion was removed. Why is it so hard for people to see there are different views? Despite red, this still isn't MAO land? The personal attacks. Do I attack people for not supporting ETH?




Ah. But ETH is deemed bad because of A. "no control, low possesion stats" and plenty of shots against during a game.

Real Madrid, Godly real Madrid, had 33 shots against and only 37% possesion last night. They didn't get out of their box all game. The exact same tactics as Ten Hag played vs City march 3 just 6 weeks ago

Yet somehow now we need to hire Ancelotti.

Why is it okay for Madrid to show that kind of game and not Ten Hag? Can you explain that one for me?

The frustration is getting rather on person Erik ten Hag than on facts, it seems, bar a few exceptions.

Because Real played like that as a one off, and are good practically every other week (still scored 3 goals over 2 legs against City). Ten Hag playing like that against City is a case of a broken clock being right.

 

[crossy1686]

I think we probably have to change managers, but if you think someone will come in and have these players playing consistent good football in short order, you‘ll be disappointed (once again).

You mean like they did last season?

 

[Rista]

Give him next season with a fully fit squad.
LEt him sell Ras, Scott, Case, Harry, Lindelof, Sancho etc... then judge him.

It's just not fair with so many injuries and primadonas in the squad. Anyone would have failed.
They are just not used to giving 100% each and every game, so you cant expect for any manager to be successful.
He needs players that will sacrifice themselves for the team. At this moment in time, only few are willing to do this (Onana, Dalot, Bruno, Hojlund, Garna, Martinez)

He doesn't deserve the sack. Not under these circumstances

Even setting the delusion that he will turn everything around aside, how do we give him a "fully fit squad" next season? All teams have injuries. What if his methods are partly responsible for those injuries?

Basically, according to you he needs half a new team, a fully fit squad that is giving 100% every game just to not have the worst season in club's modern history. And what happens then when we get injuries? Everything falls apart and we can't judge him again.

 

[Redfrog]

Are you telling me United managers chose Weghorst , Ighalo and to keep Martial even though United offered them far better alternatives?

I get you can only see this as a defence of ETH (it’s not) , but do you understand part of the infrastructure issues is the lack of support for managers in squad building/management.

Do you understand that regardless of any of the managers we have had, we’d of overpaid for players, given out stupid contracts, kept players nobody wanted, struggled to sell on players and would have squads short on positions?

Do you understand that regardless of manager they rely on the club to acquire their targets? Do you understand that most managers will not publicly question any signing the club makes, even if they didn’t want that player ? Do you understand if a team is lacking in a position and the club has no money, there are limited options for the manager to cho

That doesn’t imply any of our managers have been good enough and doesn’t mean ETH is faultless or that he automatically gets a pass this season.

It implies we have fundamental club dysfunction that’s poorly utilised our resources. That includes a throw sh*t against a wall transfer/manager strategy.

Can some of you give the “all we needed was the right manager” sh*t a rest for awhile. United and Chelsea are spending a fortune and are doing terrible , bad managers is not the consistent variable.

The biggest problem for me was that he brings a backup striker and then play him at 10 while shifting Bruno on the right.
Can we say the manager is responsible for this nonsensical set up ?

It was inexcusable.

 

[JPRouve]

Even setting the delusion that he will turn everything around aside, how do we give him a "fully fit squad" next season? All teams have injuries. What if his methods are partly responsible for those injuries?

Basically, according to you he needs half a new team, a fully fit squad that is giving 100% every game just to not have the worst season in club's modern history. And what happens then when we get injuries? Everything falls apart and we can't judge him again.

And you forgot to mention that new players often don't hit the ground running. If your plan is to only judge the manager after the replacement of 7+ players than you put yourself in a situation where one season is likely not going to be enough, you already have the excuse to give him 2 more seasons.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

These comparisons to Ancelotti miss the mark in the same way the prior comparisons to Fergie, Klopp, Pep, and Arteta also missed the mark. It seems like some posters can't (or won't) wrap their heads around the concept of existing goodwill / "credit in the bank".

A comparison between Ancelotti and Ten Hag isn't flattering to Ten Hag.

Real Madrid have been missing Courtois (starting GK) the whole season. They have missed Militao (starting CB) almost the entire season (he's played less than 100 minutes of football). They have missed Alaba since December. Ferland Mendy (the starting LB) also missed games at the beginning of the season. I recently looked at this and RM have had about 15 different back four combinations in the league campaign.

And yet with all these crucial defensive injuries, with all this inconsistency, RM are top of La Liga and have only conceded 20 goals, the best defensive record in the competition. They are unbeaten in the Champions league and have only lost 2 games in all competitions.

The common defense of Ten Hag here is that if you have crucial injuries you can't do anything but tumble down the table. But Ancelotti's RM are a clear example that this is not true.

 

[stevoc]

Even setting the delusion that he will turn everything around aside, how do we give him a "fully fit squad" next season? All teams have injuries. What if his methods are partly responsible for those injuries?

Basically, according to you he needs half a new team, a fully fit squad that is giving 100% every game just to not have the worst season in club's modern history. And what happens then when we get injuries? Everything falls apart and we can't judge him again.

It would only be fair and reasonable to then give him a 4th season, just to be super duper certain he isn't cut out for the job.

 

[JPRouve]

A comparison between Ancelotti and Ten Hag isn't flattering to Ten Hag.

Real Madrid have been missing Courtois (starting GK) the whole season. They have missed Militao (starting CB) almost the entire season (he's played less than 100 minutes of football). They have missed Alaba since December. Ferland Mendy (the starting LB) also missed games at the beginning of the season. I recently looked at this and RM have had about 15 different back four combinations in the league campaign.

And yet with all these crucial defensive injuries, with all this inconsistency, RM are top of La Liga and have only conceded 20 goals, the best defensive record in the competition. They are unbeaten in the Champions league and have only lost 2 games in all competitions.

The common defense of Ten Hag here is that if you have crucial injuries you can't do anything but tumble down the table. But Ancelotti's RM are a clear example that this is not true.

And Real Madrid have changed their setup to compensate for the fact that they do not have anything close to a regular striker. Ancelotti is the perfect example of adaptability and it's a staple of his career. In the past decade he has barely used his favored setup because it didn't fit his teams.

 

[stefan92]

And Real Madrid have changed their setup to compensate for the fact that they do not have anything close to a regular striker. Ancelotti is the perfect example of adaptability and it's a staple of his career. In the past decade he has barely used his favored setup because it didn't fit his teams.

Which opens up the question: Does he really have a favoured setup at all?

 

[JPRouve]

Which opens up the question: Does he really have a favoured setup at all?

It doesn't open that question because he actually tries to setup his 4321 first but is willing to move away from it if it's not optimal. Every manager has a favored setup but many are smart enough to understand that what they ideally prefer isn't necessarily the best practical answer.

 

[Sarni]

Even setting the delusion that he will turn everything around aside, how do we give him a "fully fit squad" next season? All teams have injuries. What if his methods are partly responsible for those injuries?

Basically, according to you he needs half a new team, a fully fit squad that is giving 100% every game just to not have the worst season in club's modern history. And what happens then when we get injuries? Everything falls apart and we can't judge him again.

If we have injuries, then we run it back with ETH getting another chance. Unless he gets 25-30 games in a row with fully fit entire squad you cannot know how good he's going to be.

We should do everything in our power to make it work for Erik.

 

[golden_blunder]

Are you telling me United managers chose Weghorst , Ighalo and to keep Martial even though United offered them far better alternatives?

I get you can only see this as a defence of ETH (it’s not) , but do you understand part of the infrastructure issues is the lack of support for managers in squad building/management.

Do you understand that regardless of any of the managers we have had, we’d of overpaid for players, given out stupid contracts, kept players nobody wanted, struggled to sell on players and would have squads short on positions?

Do you understand that regardless of manager they rely on the club to acquire their targets? Do you understand that most managers will not publicly question any signing the club makes, even if they didn’t want that player ? Do you understand if a team is lacking in a position and the club has no money, there are limited options for the manager to cho

That doesn’t imply any of our managers have been good enough and doesn’t mean ETH is faultless or that he automatically gets a pass this season.

It implies we have fundamental club dysfunction that’s poorly utilised our resources. That includes a throw sh*t against a wall transfer/manager strategy.

Can some of you give the “all we needed was the right manager” sh*t a rest for awhile. United and Chelsea are spending a fortune and are doing terrible , bad managers is not the consistent variable.

All of those things are true at the same time including managers not up to it

 

[golden_blunder]

Poll added
Would you be prepared to give ETH one more full season to prove himself?
* assuming new structure in place with no excuses for ETH
* it would be he his last season should he not earn a new contract

 

[miliebrowndivorceattorney]

The bottom line is football is a results business. If you play a certain brand of football and win people can look the other way, however if you play like shit and lose there’s no redeeming qualities.

ETH had a good run of results in january, february. At some point I think 7 wins, 2 draws and one loss out of 10 but that didn't stop the not serious people here. ETH got voted manager of the month november I think? That was on the back of a 9 loss out of 16 game run.

You keep talking about fallacies, and you're the one with the straw man fallacy.

Nobody is saying United park the bus.

I'm detailing Madrid's parking the bus, said poster claims we play like that all the time. That is not a strawman. I''m calling out his obvious bullshit.

Apart from United clearly playing crap football that everyone can see isn't working in attack, I would like to see the data of our attacking play this season. Maybe I'll look into it in a few hours, and repost this with data. I looked at it a while back and it wasn't pretty. I don't want to reuse those same statistics in this post.

For a side that doesn't value control, United will have more opportunities to win back the ball compared to other teams. But United are clearly not coached well enough to make best of those opportunities and United spend far too much energy to our side of the half.

Maybe you (and others) would like to read this very nice article putting only feathers up ETHs bum...okay not quite but it does break down a lot of current Manchester United play.


https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...r-united-chaos-so-has-gambled-on-embracing-it


"' It was in New Jersey back in July, on United’s pre-season tour, that Ten Hag gave perhaps his clearest definition yet of how he saw this United team evolving. “We looked into the history of Manchester United and looked also into the qualities of our players. What do we want to be? We want to be the best transition team in the world. We want to surprise. We want to play dynamic, we want to play with speed, we want to play aggressive, out of a very good team spirit, because that is United.”

"" On the face of it, eschewing the more patient possession-based football of some of their rivals made a good deal of sense. Without the technical quality in midfield to control games, or the time required to build and instil such a style, a quick and direct game of transitions was the best way of using Marcus Rashford, Bruno Fernandes and Jadon Sancho. It built on the strengths of the Ole Gunnar Solskjær era, which in its less abject moments played the most exciting football of the post-Ferguson decade. United’s summer transfer business – Rasmus Højlund as a stampeding presence up front, André Onana as a quick distributor, the industry and energy of Mason Mount – was geared towards this strategy. ""

"" So why has everything crumbled this season? Partly it is a product of the noise and turbulence around the club over recent months: the protracted takeover, the botched handling of the Mason Greenwood and Antony cases, Ten Hag’s row with Sancho, Rashford’s drop in form, the Harry Maguire transfer saga. A big club can weather these kinds of storms if it has a settled formula on the pitch. But here, too, the foundations upon which Ten Hag built last season’s modest progress have eroded. ""

"" Take United’s favoured back‑five setup last season: David de Gea, Diogo Dalot, Raphaël Varane, Lisandro Martínez, Luke Shaw. For various reasons, none has enjoyed a sustained run in the same position this season. Sergio Reguilón, signed as injury cover at left-back, is injured. Casemiro has struggled for fitness and sharpness. Christian Eriksen’s increasing lack of mobility has been badly exposed. And so the solid base that earned United more clean sheets than any other Premier League team last season has almost entirely evaporated. ""

"" Were Ten Hag able to summon replacements of a similar style, this would be less of a problem. Instead he has been forced to retreat to the Solskjær-era defence of Maguire, Victor Lindelöf and Aaron Wan‑Bissaka, defenders whose first instinct is to drop off rather than step up, and who thus leave United badly exposed in midfield. The hole at left-back – currently being filled by the right-footed Dalot – explains why United keep conceding chances from that area. ""

""

While most of United’s metrics have fallen off a cliff this season, there are several important areas in which they have either held firm or even improved.

High turnovers – defined as winning possession within 40 metres of the opposition goal – is one. United were sixth on this measure last season; this season they are top, with almost 11 turnovers per game. Passes per opposition defensive action – a measure of how fluently they are playing out from the back – are up 11%. Progressive passes are up 12%. United led the league for direct attacks last season and are third this time. The average speed of their attacks has increased."

"" For all the talk of Ten Hag being a more pragmatic coach than his Cruyff-Guardiola lineage might have you believe, all this actually represents something of a daring gamble. Ten Hag’s ideas may have been his own, but he has also learned from his predecessors. He has seen how the obsessive search for control derailed coaches such as Louis van Gaal and José Mourinho.

He has seen how Solskjær was ultimately undone by the inability of his teams to form a coordinated press. And most important, he has decided that at a club as big and wild as United, where the noise is deafening and every defeat is a crisis, true stability will always be an illusion. You can’t tame the chaos. So you may as well embrace it. ""

""

In the short term, this has turned United into an objectively bad football team, brittle and unable to control games, prone to giving away goals in quick succession. Seven times this season United have conceded three goals or more (they only did it six times in the whole of 2022-23). But in their better moments, you can also see glimpses of how it may ultimately work. Late in the game against Copenhagen, United won a high turnover and created a golden chance for Scott McTominay that would have put them 4-2 up with 10 minutes left.

And so Ten Hag’s big gamble is that once these fine margins start breaking his way, once the defensive injuries clear up, once Højlund hits his stride, once Mount gets up to speed, United will finally have a defined and authentic style of play. A crowd-pleasing, commercially fruitful game of permanent transitions, executed by quick direct players who thrive in broken field.

Of course, it could all blow up long before that. Luton visit Old Trafford on Saturday and pretty much every scoreline from 3-4 to 0-0 to 7-0 is conceivable. United are always perfectly capable of failing again. But perhaps they are, at least, in a position to fail better.""




This article is 5 months old. And the fun fact is, the next 7 weeks we did okay, and we did very bad. Then january and february we did okay, for now have entered a rather mixed but tend to be bad period. This article kind of always stayed with me, and is one of the reasons I''m still ETH in.

 

[golden_blunder]

Oh we’ve certainly failed better

 

[Lyng]

A what? I had accusations of WUMing whilst posting a positive perspective on the Bournemouth game. I even got a warning from a mod that though I took the mickey, wich only after some discussion was removed. Why is it so hard for people to see there are different views? Despite red, this still isn't MAO land? The personal attacks. Do I attack people for not supporting ETH?




Ah. But ETH is deemed bad because of A. "no control, low possesion stats" and plenty of shots against during a game.

Real Madrid, Godly real Madrid, had 33 shots against and only 37% possesion last night. They didn't get out of their box all game. The exact same tactics as Ten Hag played vs City march 3 just 6 weeks ago

Yet somehow now we need to hire Ancelotti.

Why is it okay for Madrid to show that kind of game and not Ten Hag? Can you explain that one for me?

The frustration is getting rather on person Erik ten Hag than on facts, it seems, bar a few exceptions.

Ten Hag is very much a tactics first kind of manager which is why, when his tactics are failing, there isnt much left to build from.
Ancelotti is very much a man manager first, much like Ferguson actually. Ancelotti will get the players to play with confidence against anyone. Mix that with Real Madrids philosophy of getting the best young players in the world and you have a very good recipe for beating teams that are all tactics.
It says alot that City had Haaland and Kev apparently being done and wanting to be subbed off...in a champions league quarter final. Meanwhile the Madrid players worked like mad for their manager. It wasnt pretty but very effective.
Hiring Ancelotti wouldnt do much good for us though since our players arent good enough.
We need a new manager AS WELL as a revamp of the squad.

 

[Alex99]

How have I tied myself in knots? I made a simple observation that a creative risk taker like Bruno may have helped the football LVG had us playing, and that he might have even taught Bruno to value possession and choose his risks better. I didn't say for certain, it was just a very straughtforward opinion. You came in and said he'd have hated him, even though others also disagreed and I gave you examples of bigger risk takers that he liked.

You've then took us all round the houses. You've even made me have to make a devil's advocate argument for LVG (even though I couldn't stand him, as i keep pointing out) as you were that unwilling to concede he doesn't like risk, then he doesn't like dribblers etc (the one thing he mentioned he liked when we signed Di Maria too. Couldn't write it!). At this stage I think you just crave the attention/ engagement from another human being. Every time I've crossed paths with you or seen your posts to others, it's always the same thing. Not to mention how you just ignore every question or source request when you claim anything, and instead take the argument off in another wild tangent with another strawman argument.

With all due respect, I have no idea who you are, and have no recollection of crossing paths with you before this discussion. I'm also not sure you know what a "strawman" is.

As for how you've tied yourself in knots:

• You argued that van Gaal had Netherlands playing the same way as he had United playing, just with success, except they weren't playing like that at all, and in their most successful performances were out-possessed (sometimes heavily) and were prolific in front of goal, almost the polar opposite of how he had United playing.
• You argued that a reasonably successful stint with a national team and a Bundesliga win (that was immediately followed by a sacking) five years prior to his appointment was somehow evidence of him being good enough to manage Manchester United, but then either refused to ackowledge or outright accepted that other, clearly not good enough managers that achieved club success five years ago and other clearly not good enough managers that have done well with national sides, were in fact, clearly not good enough to manage Manchester United.
• You have, on multiple occasions now, mentioned van Gaal not having a creative outlet, as if that is somehow some evidence that he'd have liked Bruno, ignoring that he bought and sold Di Maria, as well as shipping out Nani, Kagawa, Januzaj and Zaha, who were all potential "creative outlets", while retaining Rooney, Carrick and Mata. He also oversaw the departures of Evra, Rafael, Hernandez, Welbeck and van Persie, who very much fit the description of "risk takers" to some degree.
• You framed van Gaal's transfers and squad as being solely down to the club, especially where he missed out on first choice targets like a prohibitively expensive Neymar, but remain steadfast that Ten Hag has not been similarly let down by the club being unable to sign, among others, Min-Jae, de Jong, and Kane.
• You have, on multiple occasions now, banged on about me saying something about van Gaal and dribblers. This is the first and only time I mentioned "dribblers" or "dribbling":

Van Gaal classed doing things first-time as a "mistake". He'd make the players sit through boring video sessions where he'd do shit like call out successful dribbles as "mistakes" because there was an option to play a nice, safe, backwards pass.

I also followed it up with this acknowledgement:

Players autobiographies and interviews.

He wasn't totally against risk because his shit-on-a-stick style relied heavily on one of the forwards doing something brilliant for us to score.

Again, your commitment to this is bizarre when you could have just gone "hey lads, this Ten Hag fella is a bit naff, isn't he?" and had basically everyone agree.

So speaking of "strawman" arguments, it looks like we've found one. Particularly as "he didn't sign Neymar" and he likes "dribblers" are about the only examples of "risk" you can acknowledge van Gaal was amenable to, when Bruno, the player you are adamant he would have liked, is not remotely known for his dribbling prowess. Again, I acknowledged he might have found a place for Bruno, but it wouldn't have been in the midfield, and would have been on the wing, in a similar role to the one he gave Mata. I will also point out that just as some posters agreed with you that he might have found a use for Bruno, some also agreed with me in that he'd have hated him. I actually think both are true. He'd have hated him, but shoved him out wide as he'd have been one of very few sparks of genius we relied upon to create a goalscoring opportunity.

• Finally, you've tied yourself in knots because despite your claims of "playing devil's advocate" and "not being able to stand van Gaal", you have repeatedly argued for van Gaal being anything but a disappointment during his spell here, all to compound the point that Ten Hag has been equally (if not more) disappointing this season. A point that required absolutely no comparison to van Gaal to be made or agreed with.

I don't know what more you want in terms of "sources" when we know he fell out with Di Maria and Herrera over criticisms of their apparent "risk taking", Rafael has literally written in the Da Silva's autobiography about his criticisms and bollockings about "risk taking" and he sold or loaned out basically any player that fit the description of "risk taker", including one he'd signed himself the season before.

You're entitled to your view that van Gaal would have found a use for Bruno, but I think all of the evidence we saw from van Gaal and how he treated players of that sort of style is enough for me to also hold the view that van Gaal would either have tried to turn him into basically an entirely different player, or simply not have a space for him in the squad. Your vociferous arguing for the virtues of a clearly past-his-best Louis van Gaal have reached laughable levels.

 

[Chumpsbechumps]

And Ten Hag is on record as saying he demanded significant control over identifying targets and transfers as a condition for coming. He wanted and accepts that responsibility.

Now having said that, I'm not saying United's recruitment hasn't been a shit show for years. But the current captain steering that particular sinking ship is Erik.

Both statements by Jim and Erik can be and are true.



Which was the question I initially asked you to which you replied with your last condescending post (hence my rude response). Which included the following.



Let's address this specifically then. You appreciate Ten Hag was heavily involved in the Weghorst deal, we both seem to agree that the club wouldn't be shopping at the top end of the market in January. So when we signed Weghorst we can safely assume Ten Hag wanted him as a low cost loan option.

Do you agree?

You just aren’t getting it Stevo. It doesn’t mater how involved ETH was in the Weghorst deal, the issue was that this was what a United manager was left with to have as our MAIN striker. Whether he bought nobody and threw in a youth player , our managers have been stuck with awful alternative players.

If United were good at negotiating for players , we’d of had more money to back ETH that January. Maybe we’d of won Europa and done better in league. Maybe we wouldn’t have been stuck getting Amrabat/reguillon level back ups…..

We can throw Ighalo into the mix. That’s what United get its managers , sub standard options because we are a disaster at transfers.

Jesus, tired of this tripe.

Every transfer and loan signing had Ten Hag’s stamp of approval. He has veto power on every incoming and outgoing player, this has been EXTENSIVELY covered in the press.

Nobody is saying there is a world class infrastructure behind Ten Hag, we’re just saying he has *some* responsibility for the players brought in, and probably more than many setups (Chelsea) because he had, in many cases, personal relationships through directly coaching or having a family member represent them.

feck me, the lengths that some people go to defend this clown is beyond me…

My post wasn’t about ETH, it was about the ckub. This is what you and others are struggling to understand.

The biggest problem for me was that he brings a backup striker and then play him at 10 while shifting Bruno on the right.
Can we say the manager is responsible for this nonsensical set up ?

It was inexcusable.

Like Ferguson bringing in Alan smith and making him into a central midfielder or Rafa using Dirk Kuyt as a winger when he was brought in as a striker? Henry was a winger when arsenal
bought him. I’ve no issue with a manager using a 6 month loan signing whatever way they think they should.

All of those things are true at the same time including managers not up to it

Maybe that’s the case but how can you fairly judge a manager who is working in a dysfunctional setup? And we go round and round.

Is Pochetinno so sh*t that Chelsea spending over a billion and he can only barely get above mid table ? Is that how bad Poch is ? What about Tuchel , had a savage squad , transfer kitty of £300 mill, above anything anybody else spent to improve it and he’s sacked after a very poor start to the season.. What’s more likely , that Tuchel failed because he’s bad or because a new owner came in and changed how they run things that actually affected performances?

Clubs that spend poorly and don’t have a modern structure and a modern football plan undermine managers by default.

SJR said United have let all its managers down. That’s probably why ETH hasn’t been replaced since they came in. They are focusing on fixing the structure instead of throwing another manager at the problem.,

The manager can and may be a huge part of the problem aswell, no doubt , but if they are working in toxic conditions with incompetent people and no real overall club plan, we will never know what they might of been able to achieve had things been different.

If you think “god he’s defending ETH” then don’t bother replying to this, I’m sick of some of the hysterical “sack the manager” crowd who are incapable of discussing the manager and club issues with an level of impartiality.

 

[Jev]

You just aren’t getting it Stevo. It doesn’t mater how involved ETH was in the Weghorst deal, the issue was that this was what a United manager was left with to have as our MAIN striker. Whether he bought nobody and threw in a youth player , our managers have been stuck with awful alternative players.

Well, yeah, partly because he chose to start the season with Ronaldo who was already causing problems. Had he gotten rid of Ronaldo in the summer, we probably would have bought a proper replacement, as we did this summer. It was always going to be a stop-gap in January.

 

[Dannn411]

Poll added
Would you be prepared to give ETH one more full season to prove himself?
* assuming new structure in place with no excuses for ETH
* it would be he his last season should he not earn a new contract

Hell no. He's not doing well because he's a bad coach. Its not because of any structure.

 

[Chumpsbechumps]

Well, yeah, partly because he chose to start the season with Ronaldo who was already causing problems. Had he gotten rid of Ronaldo in the summer, we probably would have bought a proper replacement, as we did this summer. It was always going to be a stop-gap in January.

I don’t think any reasonable person would put what happened with Ronaldo anywhere near ETH. Was in some ways similar to the Pogba situation. Or Sanchez or Di Maria…. Or Cavani….

Weird that United keeps getting into these situations…

Even at that, there was so many things that needed to be addressed, it would make sense that a manager would try and at least make use of a player like Ronaldo. Greenwood situation and Martial injury record is again the club failing to make sure our managers have a squad that offers good alternatives.

 

[Robbie Boy]

The excuses are getting erm interesting...

 

[UnsungHero]

Answer to the new poll is a No from me.

I think he'll go elsewhere and be fine, but I don't feel like he's got the right personality or style to manage us. I also think from his perspective, he may not be comfortable operating under INEOS.

We have to accept that performances this season have been probably the worst in the entire football league system (relative to quality of player), it's been horrendous. And yes, while last season had some good points, there were also plenty of bad ones - the Liverpool abomination of a result, etc.

Bye Erik and all the best.

 

[IncyWincySpider]

I had to vote no. He hasn’t done enough to deserve another season, there are no signs that things will get better. The football is the worst I’ve ever seen and the results are humiliating.

 

[Jev]

I don’t think any reasonable person would put what happened with Ronaldo anywhere near ETH. Was in some ways similar to the Pogba situation. Or Sanchez or Di Maria…. Or Cavani….

Weird that United keeps getting into these situations…

Even at that, there was so many things that needed to be addressed, it would make sense that a manager would try and at least make use of a player like Ronaldo. Greenwood situation and Martial injury record is again the club failing to make sure our managers have a squad that offers good alternatives.

I’m not saying he was to blame for the Ronaldo situation, just that it’s natural that we could only get a suboptimal stop-gap replacement in January with such short notice.

 

[Tom Van Persie]

Answer to the new poll is a No from me.

I think he'll go elsewhere and be fine, but I don't feel like he's got the right personality or style to manage us. I also think from his perspective, he may not be comfortable operating under INEOS.

We have to accept that performances this season have been probably the worst in the entire football league system (relative to quality of player), it's been horrendous. And yes, while last season had some good points, there were also plenty of bad ones - the Liverpool abomination of a result, etc.

Bye Erik and all the best.

Agreed. It feels like the right time and the best for both parties to part ways. ten Hag won't be stuck for a job in the summer.

 

[Chumpsbechumps]

I’m not saying he was to blame for the Ronaldo situation, just that it’s natural that we could only get a suboptimal stop-gap replacement in January with such short notice.

In isolation you maybe right but why do United keep having to make these kind of signings ?

Amrabat, Reguillon, Evans , Weghorst , Erikson , Sabitzer and Debravka. 7 patchwork signings in less then 2 seasons.

Ronaldo , Anthony , Greenwood and Rashford high profile dramas.

United’s away jersey should have the words “why always me” ….

 

[horsechoker]

My head says no

However I won't throw my toys out of the pram if he stays. There really aren't many other managers out there who make me want to toss Hag out the window.

 

[Jev]

In isolation you maybe right but why do United keep having to make these kind of signings ?

Amrabat, Reguillon, Evans , Weghorst , Erikson , Sabitzer and Debravka. 7 patchwork signings in less then 2 seasons.

Ronaldo , Anthony , Greenwood and Rashford high profile dramas.

United’s away jersey should have the words “why always me” ….

Part of the reason is that we have spent so much (sadly without improving the squad much, if at all) that we have little wriggle room left in terms of FFP and PSR. That’s a shared responsibility between ETH and the transfer powers that be. As for the feuds and dramas, the finger is partly pointing at ETH as it seems some of it is a result of direct conflicts between him and his players, enough so that it’s starting to resemble a pattern.