You are very much a glass half empty person aren't you.
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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You are very much a glass half empty person aren't you.
That is not what I said though.
It's not about quality, it's about style and philosophy. De Zerbi has a group of players that can play to his philosophy comfortably.
I'd argue that Ten Hag has 3 players that are comfortable with his style in Antony, Martinez and Bruno. The squad is a mixed bag of players from different managers and that will take a year to fix, and then more years to reach the top level.
It's coming.
People saying that this is a poor quality year for the PL need to take a look at previous points tallies to make top 4. This is going to be one of the higher tallies, so it would be a great achievement to make top 4, particularly with our schedule.
That isn't that much. In fact it's so little that we're currently 1/6 to finish in the top four, an implied probability of 85.7%. If that's "struggling" then I hope we're soon struggling to challenge for more trophies.
Is Martinez declared as crap? Doesn't he have to play out from the back with the same goalie and RB. What a rubbish argument.
I agree, I just do not think that Brighton playing their style, would take a lot of our players. Some players are 100% they would take, but it would not be a full 11 or anything.
He is pretty much spot on. It has to be a cooperation between a lot of people working for the club. Someone like Tixi is just the focal point who makes the final decision about buying players after taking input from the head coach, the scouts, the analysts and probably a couple of external sources as well. I think we are still in the process of figuring out how this can work in our club, we brought a lot of new people in over the last two years but they still have to show they can really transform this team.
Totally agree, shame we’re looking iffy at just managing to do that though.
So why do we have those issues and Brighton don't?
Why aren't we signing those players instead of Antony for £90m and Casemiro for £60m? They exist obviously because they're at Brighton.
He’s clearly the right man for the job but is currently being hamstrung by these parasitic owners. We’re in need of a mass clear out and a serious injection of quality into the squad. Under the right ownership we will flourish, unfortunately it doesn’t seem like we’ll be able to do too much this summer due to FFP as a result of years of incompetence from Woodward and co.
A lot of players likely benefit from the lack of pressure playing for smallers clubs before they step up. Brighton got battered 3 - 1 by Forest a few weeks ago, they also only managed a draw with Leeds, lost to Spurs, lost to Fulham but that doesn't matter because they're at Brighton and 6/7th position is good for them. The microscope isn't on them after every single bad result like it is here.
We're one of the biggest names in football and unfortunately teams will try to fleece us more than they will Brighton. Whether we fall for that is another matter entirely but it is always going to be easier for clubs like that to offer a platform for talent.
Let us not forget that we miss our two CBs, Garnacho who is a useful impact player, and McTominay who is a fighter. We have also played an awful lot of games since Christmas and that ETH wanted another striker than Wout in January.
I've been saying it for months now, Barcelona was the last time we looked good and at that point the 'Quadruple' was on apparently. There's a lot of climb down on here at the moment, everything was great and now it's: "top 4 is a good season", "we've still massively improved", "he's still doing a brilliant job", I fully expect those voices to disappear if we don't get top 4 and they'll be back in the summer with "we'll challenge this year with those new signings, we were unlucky last year with injuries".
There's always an excuse with these people. They'd make excellent politicians if they aren't already.
You are right. Trouble is if some have a man crush on a different manager ETH cannot do anything right for them. Some also have a man crush on Ronaldo as well.
Nobody was actually serious about a quad ffs.
It's called being a football fan and supporting your team. Instead of wallowing around the place like a miserable slug.
Football is supposed to be enjoyed.
I'm very much the opposite actually, forever the optimist, but sometimes you have to be realistic to the situation you face. I keep seeing all kinds of nonsense on here from people who are acting like we're 10 points clear at the top of the league.
Let me know when it's enjoyable again will you? Because it's been shite for weeks now.
But improvements to where, at what cost, what's the going concern of those improvements. Aston Villa, Newcastle have had fabulous improvements but at what cost, where has that improvements taken them to, and is those improvements sustainable?
You can say their improvements have been more manager centric but our improvement has been just to pump money to the problem.
My main problem with ETH is how he set-ups 2 man midfield. This is our biggest problem. Mourinho for sometime, Ole and now ETH have tried it, and it has failed miserably. That's why tactically he is being found out in every away or pressed game we are involved in.
We can sign Kane, Osimhen but we won't achieve 90 points. This is because we lack the basic control of football games. You can't autopilot in a 38 games. You can't win a league on emotions, Arsenal have tried it it will fail. You don't see City winning games because of emotions, they win them through control and superior authority in the field that is 100% sustainable in 38 games.
You get why people say City games bore them, because 9/10 city have total control of games. Incidentally they have finished above us now 10 years in a row in the league. 10 years in a row. Pep was not there 10 years ago, so it shows its our previous managers who were tactically a level below shitty managers.
Even now, it's evident. We are still stuck on the 2018 game, ball over the top to Rashford, 2 man midfield, keeper who can't play from the back, very unproductive wingers, non existent/pensioners strikers.. the last genuine striker we signed is Lukaku a flop. The rest have been pensioners.
Last time we played 3 man midfield was Herrera, Matic, Pogba. We finished with 82 points, we have never achieved anything like that as shit as Mourinho was.
He needs to completely change our structure and stability in the Midfield first. That will cure alot of our problems. The pitch is so big, Casemiro has to slide tackle everytime, we can hold the ball more than 5 seconds in midfield without a turnover or misplaced pass or vertical pass, we cant receive the ball in half turn in the midfield, we can't progress the ball from defence to attacking third without a splitting line passes from defence, in short our midfield is very unbalanced.
We don't create genuine turnovers of chances from pressure. You saw the last few minutes against Brighton, they had like 5 genuine chances to score. We were under immense pressure. All out pressure to opponents is through transitions.
ETH has to find a way of controlling football games. Is simple. It seems through coaching it has become difficult. So we go to signing players who can control games. If by Oct we have zero control of games be rest assured we will not win a league title under him.
Achieving 29-30 wins in a 38 games season needs upmost control and consistency.
I enjoyed Sunday.
While he's a very good manager, it's not obvious that he's gonna have us play very good football constantly.
And if he won't do that often enough, he'll be let go. He has a difficult job on his hands no doubt.
For us to challenge City- probably the most consistently excellent team the PL ever saw, and for a moment leaving their cheating aside- we're gonna need better attacking players and better squad players in general.
But, a top coach should be expected to perform at the highest levels with a finite number of world-class players, some very good ones, and some average ones. This is the reality of the sport.
It's true that some of City's 2nd team players are superior to those of their rivals' first-teamers,
which makes for a terrible inequality.
But credit to them for buying smart (and not forgeting their paying off the books surely). While we have been crap at the market.
United is in no position to say anything about other teams' financial muscle.
I doubt Mahrez or Foden or Gundogan will play their best football at this current Man United team.
Which isn't meant to be a criticism of ETH in its rawest form.
I think it's fair to want to give him more time to stamp his football at United,
even if my faith in him has somewhat shrunk.
It's clear to me that ETH is a better coach than the last couple of ones we had,
but the chances of him turning us into a powerhouse once again are not that high.
A lot of circumstances will need to align for that to happen. I'm somewhat skeptical.
And if he won't do that often enough, he'll be let go. He has a difficult job on his hands no doubt.
For us to challenge City- probably the most consistently excellent team the PL ever saw, and for a moment leaving their cheating aside- we're gonna need better attacking players and better squad players in general.
But, a top coach should be expected to perform at the highest levels with a finite number of world-class players, some very good ones, and some average ones. This is the reality of the sport.
It's true that some of City's 2nd team players are superior to those of their rivals' first-teamers,
which makes for a terrible inequality.
But credit to them for buying smart (and not forgeting their paying off the books surely). While we have been crap at the market.
United is in no position to say anything about other teams' financial muscle.
I doubt Mahrez or Foden or Gundogan will play their best football at this current Man United team.
Which isn't meant to be a criticism of ETH in its rawest form.
I think it's fair to want to give him more time to stamp his football at United,
even if my faith in him has somewhat shrunk.
It's clear to me that ETH is a better coach than the last couple of ones we had,
but the chances of him turning us into a powerhouse once again are not that high.
A lot of circumstances will need to align for that to happen. I'm somewhat skeptical.
I'm fairly certain we'll get top 4 ultimately because Brighton and Liverpool will drop points, but I also think we'll probably scrape 7-9 points out of our last 5 games.
Ah come on, Brighton paying £5m or whatever for Caicedo and us turning him down because they wanted £20m for him, and then being interested in him at £65m a couple of years later just doesn't make any sense and a decent recruitment team would know that from the off. There's talent out there but we're always chasing the big name with old legs.
Me too! But we only play decent when we're at home, and unfortunately we have to play away sometimes.
Because if Brighton don't finish in the top 4/challenge for the league it isn't a huge disappointment, if they end up 5/6th it's a great season for them because the expectation is basically mid table.
Or if Brighton next season aren't challenging for the title after this season, do we adjust their expectations?
Do we even witness "disasters" anymore? Goalposts have been moving so fast for certain managers that I'm pretty sure that even if we were to bottle top4 there'd be enough people here calling this season a success and a big improvement. Crashing out from the EL against inferior opposition with a quarter of our wage bill was not taken as a disaster, 7-0 drumming we received from Liverpool was merely unlucky and a fluke, nothing to worry about, getting dominated by Brighton is considered acceptable and was expected by many. The post-SAF drought made many here (me included) very hungry for success and we're obviously biased, trying to see positives where there are not so many. For me, the biggest eye-opener is when I see how our new signings are rated at the Caf (with Antony getting 5-6-7/10, Eriksen considered good enough for top4 etc.) and how they are rated by anyone else. We've been doing terrible business for a long while and there's little to indicate we plan to stop with our policy "give the manager all the money and allow him to overpay for his favourites".
Because plucky little Brighton didn't spend £230m on players who've won Champions Leagues over the summer did they?
If we'd spent £45m on Championship players or players from Japan maybe we'd have lesser expectations also?
I don't know, ask yourself what you thought after Leicester won the league.
Exactly. Which is why Potter couldn't get a Chelsea team with demonstrably better players, man for man, to play any better than he had that Brighton team playing when he was in charge. This season's Chelsea is the edge case for badly coordinated squad development. Which is a helpful distraction from our own diabolically inefficient spending over the last several years. My only concern is that our terrible squad building might be continuing under Ten Haag because - as he himself admits - creating a successful team is down to more than just the manager. And we can't ignore the great people he had around and above him at Ajax.
Good post.
I've seen a million posts about ETH style and willingness to "control the game" but I've seen almost none of that in our play. I think this style of play is unfamiliar to him as he's used to 60-65% possession in the league (City, Arsenal and Brighton level). In that sense I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt as surely this football is not what he wants us to play but still he makes this work (if we get top 4 then surely this season will be considered a success).
I don't actually agree. We've spent a great deal of money last summer, so I'm not gonna cry over not spending any money in January. There are always limits.
The problem is not the last 12 months. It's the previous years of mis-management at all levels which left us with a squad that is just not going to be fit for purpose with a transfer window or two.
So Ten Hag is not really being hamstrung by anything except for a lack of patience by some people. It was always going to take time.
Now, if we have a very limited budget this summer because of the Glazers - then yes, that will be on them.
I'm happy with his first year. We've seen the progress on the pitch. The amount of matches was eventually too much for this squad so we're now on our last legs, with the momentum we had two months ago gone. But I see no reason to think we won't progress with more time and retooling. I'm a bit surprised by some of the negativity towards the manager. He's not been perfect, but nobody is, and he's still learning himself. That's fine.
Look at what Howe's done with Newcastle too.
I think it was @UTAretro who went into detail about the structure they've built. We are a very poorly run club, no matter our stature. Like @Pogue Mahone states above, look at how much Graham Potter struggled at Chelsea without the benefits of a solid and well defined structure and philosophy. Brighton, from what I remember, have been building for a few years now and they're reaping the rewards. We've gone through 4 managers in a year and a half, have a scattergun transfer approach and the worst owners you could possibly (not) wish for.
Did he not have the benefit of managing in the PL before? Also, he had 6 months on ETH, spent more, doesn't have a premium rate when buying players cause his club is not called Manchester United and is actually a very good manager.
Oh, and we're 3 points behind them and beat them when it mattered.
What happens if we don't make top 4? That has been the bar for managers under the Glazers. Wonder what the new owner will decide.
No but we should've given him more chances. VDS was same age
Van Der Sar was 34 when he joined us and was a much better player with an illustrious career.
I don't think this will happen, if you look at the extent of the implosion of our top4 competition it seems almost impossible that we'd bottle it, but if we really finish outside the top4 it would be a disaster though I doubt there would be many consequences. Talks about progress etc.
Oh yes. Garnacho is a very critical player who we've been missing in addition to our CBs. There is no player I'd rather have coming off our bench to run at tiring defenders. Could've made the difference yesterday.
I agree and would sign up on your evaluation. BUT even though all those things are correct, a) it could be mitigated with some organisational tweaks on a tactics basis and b) are the effects so astonishingly bad that they rectify making an obvious mistake ("fee for Antony"-wise). I would say no. Obviously Bruno isn't your standard hug the touchline right-winger but neither was Mata. You can get it to work for a season. And a starting position doesn't necessarily dictate where you have to stay all game.
KDB is going where the space is. And I'd say he is pretty effective in doing so. Think I read he is Citys most prolific crosser this season. Sure, again not your standard wide player but a player who can do a (pretty fecking good) job there.
A - I agree. We shouldn't have waited so long.
B - especially if a position is extremely important to you, you can't just sit around and hope for your A-option to happen. The club was very very passive in that regard. And they paid a painful price for it. For me, that is a series of mistakes. You can list a few reasons, sure, but that doesn't make it less of a mistake. I am not butt-hurt about it, I just hope we do not repeat it. And thats why I seriously hope that it has been named a mistake internally. No chance to correct mistakes if you close your eyes not accepting you have done any.
I agree. So many positions should have been worked on. I mean, I get it, can't do everything in one swoop so you have to make a priority list. I think though, that this years situation is pretty comparable - there are still many holes in the squad and yet here we are seeing fans asking for a 100 million striker which will eat up most of the budget. I think, that will again end up problematic.
I see your point. I am a bit doubtful again... But lets hope for the best. I am sure, ETH has an idea of how things should be organized and all parties communicate.
ETH walked into a shitshow, he brought in some players he's familiar with and trusts, yes they came at a big cost but he felt it was needed. Casemiro came in instead of De Jong and has proved in the main a great signing. Outside of that it's still a load of tripe from the previous regime.
We played some really good stuff prior to the World Cup break and I feel since then we've not quite got back to that consistency bar a few games here and there. We've had a lot of injuries, key injuries and suspensions. If we finish with a trophy and 3rd for 4th I think we have to deem it a successful season regardless of whether we limp over the line or not.
The mess was never going to be sorted in a season and I don't think it'll be sorted next season in full either, with or without new owners. For us to move on from the mediocrity and poor mentality of the previous regime I think we're a couple seasons away to be honest. That said when ETH was brought in most people were saying it's about seeing gradual improvement. Back in the CL and a trophy would be exactly that, but the ownership fiasco needs resolving quickly or I fear we'll be left reeling in what is going to be probably our most important summer window in years for both incomings and outgoings.
We played some really good stuff prior to the World Cup break and I feel since then we've not quite got back to that consistency bar a few games here and there. We've had a lot of injuries, key injuries and suspensions. If we finish with a trophy and 3rd for 4th I think we have to deem it a successful season regardless of whether we limp over the line or not.
The mess was never going to be sorted in a season and I don't think it'll be sorted next season in full either, with or without new owners. For us to move on from the mediocrity and poor mentality of the previous regime I think we're a couple seasons away to be honest. That said when ETH was brought in most people were saying it's about seeing gradual improvement. Back in the CL and a trophy would be exactly that, but the ownership fiasco needs resolving quickly or I fear we'll be left reeling in what is going to be probably our most important summer window in years for both incomings and outgoings.
I don't think the playing out from the back necessarily means possession play. I think he uses that as a basis for finding the space for midfielders to spring attacks from deep, especially against teams with a high line. When I watch the position of our players vs the position of City players, there is a stark difference. They always have 2 or 3 passes on, even in deeper areas, whereas we push our midfielders and attackers really high up the pitch and try to pick one of them out, which is where it falls apart a lot for us, in my opinion. I remember the same watching his Ajax team, quick passes between the lines and get from front to back as quickly as possible. Perhaps I'll have a read of what you posted as I had a limited sample size from games I watched, but I definitely don't see Guardiola-esque football on the horizon for us.
EDIT: I just looked up stats for both legs of Ajax vs Real Madrid and Ajax vs Tottenham in 2019. In three ties, they were outpossessed quite a bit, including the 4-1 win over Real. To win 4-1 with inferior possession tells you something, which is exactly what we are seeing now. They edged the possession 51-49% in one game vs Madrid.
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