Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[Eddy_JukeZ]

I find it extremely bizarre that there are people in here who seemingly believe we've made no improvement from last season...

We have, but the people parroting the stance that Ten Hag has done miracles isn't true either.

He's done a good job, but there's a lot of room for improvement. And we're not ending the season well at all.

 

[evil_geko]

I find it extremely bizarre that there are people in here who seemingly believe we've made no improvement from last season...

Aye, I can't believe I keep reading from some people saying "they can't see difference/improvements". Mind boggles.

 

[Nickelodeon]

Have we scored any last minute winners this season?

 

[sullydnl]

Comparing us to his Ajax side, ETH has compromised on the way we attack, the way we press, the height of our defensive line, the way we use our fullbacks, the way we use our goalkeeper and by extension the way we play out from the back. All to work around the weaknesses of a side not particularly suited to his preferred approach, which was widely discussed as being the case on here before he signed.

I'm fine with people criticising ETH for his flaws, but seeing people argue that he's overly dogmatic after a season of such blatant compromise is bizarre. There's only so much you can expect a coach to change, if this is too principled then Christ knows what you thought we were getting.

 

[Solius]

Have we scored any last minute winners this season?

Garnacho away to Fulham.

 

[Mmm-Qatarian]

We have, but the people parroting the stance that Ten Hag has done miracles isn't true either.

He's done a good job, but there's a lot of room for improvement. And we're not ending the season well at all.

I agree. I'm still ultimately very happy with him, though. He's exceeded my expectations at the start of the season, and I am definitely seeing signs of a coherent playing style emerging even if performances aren't as consistent as they need to be.

 

[acid_fuji]

Aye, I can't believe I keep reading from some people saying "they can't see difference/improvements". Mind boggles.

I think it’s because we see now and then glimpses of the old habits they have

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Comparing us to his Ajax side, ETH has compromised on the way we attack, the way we press, the height of our defensive line, the way we use our fullbacks, the way we use our goalkeeper and by extension the way we play out from the back. All to work around the wekanesses of a side not particularly suited to his preferred approach, which was widely discussed as being the case on here before he signed.

I'm fine with people criticising ETH for his flaws, but seeing people argue that he's overly dogmatic after a season of such blatant compromise is bizarre.

Pretty much.

I'm arguing that he should stick to his guns/ideals more. He should be ruthless with De Gea and not want him to stay.

 

[Judas]

Or we could just stop playing football that doesn’t work for half the current available first team and focus on winning games until we can replace them with players that can play the way we want to play?

To be honest aren’t we already doing that? Hence all the people on here crying that Oleball is back? I think he’s trying to make the best of what he can get from what he’s got right now, and obviously doesn’t trust a large number of the squad.

Did I want us to be more fluid and playing better at this point in the season, of course, but with how it’s gone injury and number of games wise, I’m not shocked, but it’s grim viewing.

 

[Kag]

Do Brighton have better players than us?

No, which is why they’re below us and we knocked them out of the FA Cup. But they’re good enough to beat us and have better balance throughout the team.

We have a fourth placed squad. Because of that then results like last night happen.

 

[pocco]

Brighton is a fully well oiled machine. Those players in Brighton's system will play so much better compared to playing in another team.
The point is, Brighton didn't need to spend 200 million pounds to be competitive. We needed to.

Why couldn't we become a 'well oiled machine'? I reckon if you put some of our underperforming players in their team, they'd look considerably better. If we got more out of our team than the sum of the parts, as these other clubs do, then we'd be very good. Because we do have a lot to work with already, we just don't get enough out of certain players that have proven they can do it previously.

 

[sullydnl]

Pretty much.

I'm arguing that he should stick to his guns/ideals more. He should be ruthless with De Gea and not want him to stay.

Whether he should have stuck to his guns more this season I'm not sure, but I certainly hope we carry fewer compromises next season with more players suited to his approach added in critical positions.

I certainly don't want more pragmatism from him.

 

[UpWithRivers]

I am not sure you're any serious here.

Man City plan was different back then than what they had after the following summer, and the nowadays Man City.

Koralov kicking long, conceding possession after Leicester won an aerial duel, just for City defense easiy done by Leicester quick interchange. How often you see City kick long like that nowadays?

Why did City sit back in their box defending a throw in that is closer to half way line than to their box? Do they still do this now? I certainly don't recall.

If you think we never try to play out of the back with short pass when Varane and Lisandro Martinez were still in the team then nothing I can say. Whatever that float your boat.

You are focusing on 1 game. I am looking at it over a season. Yes Peps team has dramatically changed. But you could still see elements of Pep early on. Agree or not? Or did Pep play like Sam Allardyce until he had all his own players in place?

Do we play out from the back with Varane and Martinez? Sure but even Southampton plays out from the back sometimes. What's your point? I didnt say that we don't ever do it. I said we are fking useless at it. Again you are looking at instances and I'm looking at it as a whole. As a whole our play out from the back is no better than anyone else in the Prem even with Martinez and Varane. And thats the problem.

 

[NoLogo]

If we do, we've learned absolutely nothing.

In all honesty, he should have minimal say in recruitment. His record is already dodgy as it is regarding recruitment.

Exactly. This has been my stance for a while that recruitment shouldn't be down only to the manager. I think we need to learn from teams like Brighton in that regard. Build a team that can identify and recruit players that fit your desire play style well and make certain there is a balance in the team. Get head coaches who you think can work well with these sorts of players because his style of football aligns with the players that you recruited. Of course, the recruitment team should be in a regular exchange with the head coach and his team to identify the right players and get inputs from different perspectives.

 

[pocco]

I don't think anyone expecting a title challenge was rational at the time but you'd expect a comfortable top 4 finish and for the team to get better throughout the year.

I'm not comfortable with people saying we should be fighting for the league but I feel equally perplexed at people trying to claim a top 4 finish will be miraculous work. If you didn't expect us to finish top 4 having spent almost quarter of a billion, with three key top 4 contenders falling apart early in the season, then it's probably never to be expected of us ever again.

If you were told at that time that Arsenal would compete, I think people would be questioning why we weren't also. It just seems to become accepted too easily on here that 'we need more time' or 'we still don't have ETH's team' etc. Yes we do need to improve certain areas to truly compete, but I think we should be looking better than we have.

 

[TMDaines]

Pretty much.

I'm arguing that he should stick to his guns/ideals more. He should be ruthless with De Gea and not want him to stay.

I would agree with this. Nearly a full season in and I'm not sure I see what the vision is. Obviously top four and silverware would have made for a successful season when he signed, but I expected to see more of an improvement and a clear blueprint in how the team plays. I lack optimism headed into next season as I'm not sure I see the foundations on which to build. Signing a goalscorer does nothing to address how generally disorganised we look out-of-possession away from home.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Whether he should have stuck to his guns more this season I'm not sure, but I certainly hope we carry fewer compromises next season with more players suited to his approach added in critical positions.

I certainly don't want more pragmatism from him.

You can argue both ways for this season, but I truly hope he barely compromises next season.

At some point, we'll need to actually try to keep the ball well vs the top teams and not just attack in transitions.

 

[pocco]

Aye, I can't believe I keep reading from some people saying "they can't see difference/improvements". Mind boggles.

I think we can see some improvement in areas. But when you consider we were supposed to have this great manager and he's spent £230m over last season's team, then I don't think it looks anything like the improvement I expected.

 

[Crimson King]

Aye, I can't believe I keep reading from some people saying "they can't see difference/improvements". Mind boggles.

They've simply blanked out how piss poor we were last season. Morale could not have been lower at the end under Ralf.

Considering most pundits expected us to finish 5th or 6th, we've done well. We over stretched, were hamstrung by not being able to spend in January, and repeatedly tripped up by a congested schedule due to a mid season WC. Teams that people keep comparing us to, like Newcastle, Aston Villa and Brighton, didn't have to deal with the constant churn of games.

Sometimes I wish we had finished even lower last season so we hadn't played in the Europa League. I think we'd be a lot closer to 1st and 2nd if that had been the case. Not really challenge, but certainly more comfortably top 4. Although, those nights against Barca were a joy, and showed what this team can do when in full flow.

Obviously things could improve, and some results have been really hard to swallow, but people forget that even Ferguson came in and took time to mould the squad into something that could challenge for a trophy, let alone the league.

 

[pocco]

You can argue both ways for this season, but I truly hope he barely compromises next season.

At some point, we'll need to actually try to keep the ball well vs the top teams and not just attack in transitions.

I'm not convinced at all that he wants a possession team. His Ajax team were a transition team also from what I saw.

Going back throughout the season I have said that I don't think he sets up like he wants possession, rather quick transitions, long balls over and numbers in the final third. I think we'd all recognise by now if he wanted a Pep style of play, or anything that resembles that.

 

[sullydnl]

Exactly. This has been my stance for a while that recruitment shouldn't be down only to the manager. I think we need to learn from teams like Brighton in that regard. Build a team that can identify and recruit players that fit your desire play style well and make certain there is a balance in the team. Get head coaches who you think can work well with these sorts of players because his style of football aligns with the players that you recruited. Of course, the recruitment team should be in a regular exchange with the head coach and his team to identify the right players and get inputs from different perspectives.

I'm not even sure the manager thinks it should be solely down to the manager.

 

[Woziak]

ETH has definitely improved certain players like Luke Shaw, AWB, Marcus Rashford, D Dalot, V Lindelof , Garnaucho, Pellistri however he has failed miserably with others , he’s overplayed certain players and that’s why we’ve had key injuries at the wrong time.

The manager obviously needs backing in the Transfer window but he also needs his wings clipped with certain targets so the club does not pay over the odds for Dutch league players like Antony we should have bought three players from that league for his cost or at least him and Gatkpo.

Goals win you games and we simply don’t have enough in the team right now, nowhere near enough, he’s failed miserably with J Sancho who clearly thinks he should be starting every game in front of Antony but Jadon’s form been average at best.

The front players do not pass enough to each other, they are too greedy and we see a huge disconnect with the midfield and the strikers as we don’t convert the opportunities, then we allow the opposition back in to the game and the strikers stop tracking back and we get overrun, all traits from last season creeping back in, we don’t win the first or the second ball and simply invite huge pressure late on in games. Any united fan watching last night must have been screaming at the TV because we could just see a the same traits creeping back in.

ETH has lost 8 away games, 7 in the PL, that’s certainly not top 4 form with 49 goals scored from 33 PL games, again not top 4 form, he now has to get a result out of the team because if they lose to West Ham I think he could be in real trouble, everything this season is based on CL and where as SJR might give him a chance next season, Qatar will not, they are not dropping £5-5.5bn on a club to play Europa Football and can he live with real pressure, I like our manager but I never got carried away like some fans did because he still managed a team in a CL semi final that lost a 2 goal league to Spurs and bottled it and that was his team with all of his Dutch favourite players; De Light, FDJ, FVB he had them all.

They say that a team is a mirror image of their coach, well I’m seeing a lot of that bottling mentality creeping into united right now, Spurs 2-0 up we draw 2-2 , Villa we hang on for a nervous 1-0 win, Brighton we get played off the park in the second half after a gutsy first half performance, four points from 9, if we bottle the next three games and get 4 points from 9, then we really are in trouble and serious questions needs to be asked about the coach and spending €100m on Antony who cost the club one and half times what Haaland cost City.

Antony has contributed very little in the PL, apart from showing kids how to cut in from right and have an air shot collection that hardly ever hit the target, he should be used as a sub for the rest of the season and we need to start the following team against West Ham ; D De Gea, Dalot, Maguire, Lindelof, Shaw, Casemeiro, Eriksen , Bruno, Sancho, Rashford, Garnaucho.

Maguire is awful yes but we need to win and pick an out and out attacking team moving Shaw to CB nullifies our best work down the left with Rashford and Shaw, Sancho is better than Antony right now, slower yes but better at dictating the play with other ball players in the team.

Garnaucho scares teams and will give us a real goal threat again, play this team and we might concede 1 but we will score 2 or 3.

 

[crossy1686]

What do you mean?

We don't try to keep the ball vs the top teams. We press here and there, but we're not adamant in playing out from the back.

Ten Hag gave up on that a long while ago. We beat City at OT with sub 30% possession. We had sub 40% vs Arsenal in both games.

Sometimes, we just need to drop deep and hoof it for the counter, instead we constantly get more plan A, but worse because the other team is pinning us back in our own half.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Sometimes, we just need to drop deep and hoof it for the counter, instead we constantly get more plan A, but worse because the other team is pinning us back in our own half.

We do hoof it a lot lately. We literally sat back vs Newcastle in the cup final. We don't really press that high. The numbers reflect it too.

 

[crossy1686]

To be honest aren’t we already doing that? Hence all the people on here crying that Oleball is back? I think he’s trying to make the best of what he can get from what he’s got right now, and obviously doesn’t trust a large number of the squad.

Did I want us to be more fluid and playing better at this point in the season, of course, but with how it’s gone injury and number of games wise, I’m not shocked, but it’s grim viewing.

Maybe we are? But we're playing shit Ole ball. We just need 9 points and then we can focus on the final so do whatever it takes to make that happen. I don't care if we counter every team between now and June. It's the "win at all costs" time of the season. Results first from here on out until the season is over.

 

[saivet]

We have, but the people parroting the stance that Ten Hag has done miracles isn't true either.

He's done a good job, but there's a lot of room for improvement. And we're not ending the season well at all.

Agreed. Top 4 and a trophy (or two) is a good season results wise. I think the performances have been the disappointing thing for me as I generally don't think we played all that good football for most of the season. It's not to say we have been lucky or not deserved wins but I think we haven't had too many impressive performances.

 

[Hammondo]

We have, but the people parroting the stance that Ten Hag has done miracles isn't true either.

He's done a good job, but there's a lot of room for improvement. And we're not ending the season well at all.

I think what stands out is how much of an effect the Brighton manager has had in less time and with less money. It's very possible that they had the right type of players already compared to us though.

 

[crossy1686]

We do hoof it a lot lately. We literally sat back vs Newcastle in the cup final. We don't really press that high. The numbers reflect it too.

And we won, that's all I'm asking for. 9 points and a good cup final, then they can go back to working on shapes, triangles, inverted fullbacks and breaking the lines.

We did it under Fergie for many years. We used to grind out results like a machine at this point in the season and we didn't play good football.

 

[pocco]

@pocco just wanted to say you posted some excellent points in this page.

Thanks. I'm just giving it my honest opinion. Over the last couple of years I've grown so numb watching us play that I have no loyalty to these players or any manager after we have been let down so many times.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

I'm not convinced at all that he wants a possession team. His Ajax team were a transition team also from what I saw.

Going back throughout the season I have said that I don't think he sets up like he wants possession, rather quick transitions, long balls over and numbers in the final third. I think we'd all recognise by now if he wanted a Pep style of play, or anything that resembles that.

His Ajax team weren't a sole transition team. They played out from the back a lot. Ten Hag follows Cruyff's principles, but with tweaks of his own.

They were good in transition too, but they employed a vertical positional play. It's similar to what City employ, but Ten Hag uses more verticality in his style.

https://www.coachesvoice.com/cv/erik-ten-hag-ajax-champions-league/ - It's a decent write-up of his coaching ideals.

 

[ti vu]

You are focusing on 1 game. I am looking at it over a season. Yes Peps team has dramatically changed. But you could still see elements of Pep early on. Agree or not? Or did Pep play like Sam Allardyce until he had all his own players in place?

Do we play out from the back with Varane and Martinez? Sure but even Southampton plays out from the back sometimes. What's your point? I didnt say that we don't ever do it. I said we are fking useless at it. Again you are looking at instances and I'm looking at it as a whole. As a whole our play out from the back is no better than anyone else in the Prem even with Martinez and Varane. And thats the problem.

Pep's first season was full of these dramatic unwanted tweak. This one game was not similar to many of the games in that season. If you can't see the different element of then to compare of now in that example, how can I trust your opinion about unspecified element? If it were a sucess, why did Pep change drastically after he got the ideal players in?

Do we play like Sam Alladyche? How much is sometimes for Southampton playing out of the back? As a whole we're no better than anyone else? You're sure? Or you're being hysterical here? It's easy to point out a few teams that is more useless than us at what you just said here. Pick your poison.

 

[Hammondo]

Why couldn't we become a 'well oiled machine'? I reckon if you put some of our underperforming players in their team, they'd look considerably better. If we got more out of our team than the sum of the parts, as these other clubs do, then we'd be very good. Because we do have a lot to work with already, we just don't get enough out of certain players that have proven they can do it previously.

I think we overrate some of our players. It's a notably weak PL season and we are 4th. I don't believe many of our players are suited to the Brighton style.

 

[Sarni]

If you were told at that time that Arsenal would compete, I think people would be questioning why we weren't also. It just seems to become accepted too easily on here that 'we need more time' or 'we still don't have ETH's team' etc. Yes we do need to improve certain areas to truly compete, but I think we should be looking better than we have.

I don't disagree. The most concerning thing about this season is that we have genuinely got worse as the season progressed. We started off terribly, then were OK but not great for a few weeks, then very good for 2-3 months and we are now back to where we were early in the season. We are also playing quite terrible football lacking structure. Some attribute our style and results to ETH trying to play incredible amazing football, unwilling to compromise, but I don't really buy this. I think we've tried to play conservatively lately away from home, just struggled.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

I think we overrate some of our players. It's a notably weak PL season and we are 4th. I don't believe many of our players are suited to the Brighton style.

I mean a lot of the players here get pelters from our fans.

I don't think we overrate them that much. It is a pretty weak PL season though.

 

[crossy1686]

I find it extremely bizarre that there are people in here who seemingly believe we've made no improvement from last season...

Although I disagree with them and I think we're a better team this year and some players have improved, it's hard to comeback against that criticism.

We haven't played well since Barcelona.
We're struggling to make top 4 (not done yet but need 9 points from the last 5 games)
We've £230m in the summer to be in exactly the same position we were in last couple of years
We might end the season with just a League cup to show for it

This season could end in disaster by all rights. I think Liverpool and Brighton dropping points will ultimately save us though.

 

[Vault Dweller]

That's my point though. Brighton don't have a philosophy of Potter players or De Zerbi players. They have a philosophy of Brighton players and they fit both Potter and De Zerbi because they have similar ideals albeit De Zerbi with an extension of those ideals that work better. A lot of Ole regime players weren't bought for a specific style really, so if you want to go a Ten Hag style or make that into the new United style for the future to have transition, yeah, you'll need to buy more.

Totally agree. Mind when Pep arrived at City and they got rid of a ton of players, because they either weren't good enough or because they didn't suit what he wanted.

We can't do that, due to money and so on, but the point still stands. We didn't have the players to play how ETH wanted, we got some in and he has already compromised on style of play because he is having to do the best he can with what he has. If we wanted to be ruthless this summer, then about 7 or 8 players should be leaving and then 5/6 who suit what the manager wants should come in. Some players have improved under him, but not everyone can do that and so until we have had at least another season under ETH with better recruitment and sales, we won't be close to who he really wants us to be playing.

I have a far greater issue with players being a goal threat. Most can't hit a barn door and it's a massive issue, and now we are in the business end of the season and some players aren't stepping up to the mark and coping with the pressure of providing the goals we need.

 

[Sarni]

I think we overrate some of our players. It's a notably weak PL season and we are 4th. I don't believe many of our players are suited to the Brighton style.

Yeah we don't have players at the level of Pascal Gross and Danny Welbeck.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

The underlying metrics have us as the 6th best performing team.

We used to be 4th, but I'm guessing our recent performances have caused a slip in the metrics.

We need better players, but we need to play better too.

 

[Ronaldo's Love Child]

I think we need another season to properly assess if there has been any improvement under ETH.

Will the determined pursuit of Antony and the fee we paid seem to be brilliant foresight OR questionable bias towards players who did it for him in the bubble at Ajax?

I have said it before but I do not see us winning anything if we rely on Martial and/or Rashford as our main attackers. Rashford has had an amazing streak of form but has tailed off now and I seriously worry he will repeat this next year. Martial isn't working and hasn't worked for some time now.

Sancho isn't working and the jury is still out on Antony. I won't say anything about Weghorst but our entire front line is dysfunctional and has been for some seasons.

Ronaldo was an opportunistic purchase which ended up p****g off the only decent striker we have had in recent years i.e. Cavani in his 1st season with us.

Winning a cup through a lucky cup draw isn't enough to satisfy my need to see visible signs of improvement. In a season where Chelsea and Spurs have imploded and even Liverpool were out for the count we now find ourselves in a battle for 4th.

If we lose our game in hand then Liverpool are only 3 pts behind us with a vastly superior goal difference.

 

[sullydnl]

I think we overrate some of our players. It's a notably weak PL season and we are 4th. I don't believe many of our players are suited to the Brighton style.

Brighton's players are unquestionably worse than ours.

The difference is that they fit a coherent style of play. Because they've been recruited with actual strategy and purpose, with managers also recruited who suit that approach too. Potter and De Zerbi are different, but there's enough overlap in what qualities they want from a team for most of the same players to function in both.

Whereas our squad hasn't been built that way. We've swapped through wildly different managers with little strategy in recruitment, so it's hardly surprising that it's a struggle to get the random selection of players that leaves you with playing like a well oiled machine or greater than the sum of their parts.