Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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You can't possibly be serious.
Of course I am.

Eriksen you can somewhat give a pass to because he was free, but he's not good. He's okay when he's got time on the ball, but is a complete liability when teams actually come at us.

Casemiro is the third most expensive midfielder in the league behind De Bryune and Enzo Fernandez (4th overall with Pogba in there) and has trouble passing the ball. Not only that, but he's a complete lightweight under pressure. A terrible signing when you consider we could've bought multiple midfielders who would've complimented ten Hag's system for less than what he cost.
 
We need to be much more ruthless with our academy players. We seem to getting better at it when we sold James Garner last year for a decent sum and he’s basically an invisible man at Everton now. Not every United prospect is going to be a world beater no matter how much you play them and how much blind faith you put into them. Even now Tuanzebe is technically a United player and he’ll turn 26 this year.

90% of them will turn out to be likely plying their trade in the lower leagues or fall out of football altogether by the time they’re 25. Our academy has done well if they can mould a Premier League mainstay player.
 
The system has changed quite significantly the past few years and ever since Murtough appointed EtH. @Adnan has done terrific posts about the football data science parts, overhaul of the scouting streams, etc. Still a little ways to go, but there's been clear changes and not just with EtH.
And yet, if the last two transfer windows are anything to go by, we still have a structure where the manager is effectively our chief scout and DOF. I'll believe these supposed 'changes' when I see them.
 
Of course I am.

Eriksen you can somewhat give a pass to because he was free, but he's not good. He's okay when he's got time on the ball, but is a complete liability when teams actually come at us.

Casemiro is the third most expensive midfielder in the league behind De Bryune and Enzo Fernandez (4th overall with Pogba in there) and has trouble passing the ball. Not only that, but he's a complete lightweight under pressure. A terrible signing when you consider we could've bought multiple midfielders who would've complimented ten Hag's system for less than what he cost.

I assumed you are either joking or clueless. Appreciate making that clear.
 
I am not yet fully convinced with Ten Haag though I hear the media and fans praising him -
Here are my arguments
1-it is too early to praise him much now.. we have to wait at least till end of season
2- Finishing top 4 is not a progress as Ole, Mourinho and Van gall did too
3- Spending 80 plus mil on Anthony ..you question his judgement
4 Spending close to 50 mil on Martinez is still bit high although you can argue his performance is okay
4- His results this season shows the club is still fragile. the losses to Liverpool , City..Brentford..and Sevilla ..etc
6 -Now he has amost full season I personally think we should full evaluate him by how many he players he is going to get rid of and how many players he can bring (with the help of recruitment department.)
7/ Some of players are overused esp Bruno and also martinez..varane..they might run out of steam at the end of season
8/ I personally think Eriksson is no 10 and should be used as backup for Bruno and bring a number 8...it has many advantages
On his defense
**Sometimes we don't know how much power or influence he has ( though we assume he has ).. there are board of directors and owners after all..
**It is his first season in the premier league
**the team plays better as a team than before
 
I am not yet fully convinced with Ten Haag though I hear the media and fans praising him -
Here are my arguments
1-it is too early to praise him much now.. we have to wait at least till end of season
2- Finishing top 4 is not a progress as Ole, Mourinho and Van gall did too
3- Spending 80 plus mil on Anthony ..you question his judgement
4 Spending close to 50 mil on Martinez is still bit high although you can argue his performance is okay
4- His results this season shows the club is still fragile. the losses to Liverpool , City..Brentford..and Sevilla ..etc
6 -Now he has amost full season I personally think we should full evaluate him by how many he players he is going to get rid of and how many players he can bring (with the help of recruitment department.)
7/ Some of players are overused esp Bruno and also martinez..varane..they might run out of steam at the end of season
8/ I personally think Eriksson is no 10 and should be used as backup for Bruno and bring a number 8...it has many advantages
On his defense
**Sometimes we don't know how much power or influence he has ( though we assume he has ).. there are board of directors and owners after all..
**It is his first season in the premier league
**the team plays better as a team than before
:lol:

Yep Martinez has just been 'okay' for us. JFC.
 
This is realistic even though I think Fred, Henderson, AWB and McTominay will generate 20-30m each. Telles and Tuanzebe will leave on a free.

I would sell Fred but we will probably get more money for McTominay.

Sancho is not possible to sell unfortunately.

Yeah just my thinking with Fred is that he only has a year left on his contract. He'll be 31 year next year too, but really it's the contract situation that makes me think we will struggle to get what his 'true value' would actually be, because he should definitely be able to find a home somewhere in the PL. I agree McTominay would fetch more simply by being younger, homegrown and with a longer contract.
 
Is ETH the best manager in the world ? No
Could he be ? Possibly
Has he like every other manager now realised just how shite and toxic our club is because six entitled morons inherited the greatest club in the world, left it to be run and controlled by a banker who was completely clueless and managed the club to ruin by going after popular players in the press who don’t fit the managers style to turn Man United into Mercenaries United.

This is why we need to give him a little respect and time he has a win rate 69% 36 from 52 games, however he has lost 9 games and he’s lost them too easily so he needs to learn how to stay in big games and not be so open. The club needs to move out at least 9-10 players this summer as they clearly can’t either be coached to be champions or have the mentality to play for united. The bigger question is will Murtourgh and Arnold be in position to help him from June to August or will other People come in and radically change the script, quite possibly.

Right now Time is up for the Following;

D De Gea (offer £100k per week, make him number 2, if he’s not happy sell)
D Henderson ( Just Sell however if De Gea goes we might have to keep)
H Maguire (Gone)
V Lindelof ( Maybe we keep but he’s Swedens captain and Inter Milan are interested we should do a swap with Bastoni plus cash )
E Bailey (Sell)
B Williams (Sell)
A Teles (Sell)
Fred (Sell)
Sabitzer ( See how he performs then decide)
Weghorst (No Thank you )
A Elanga (Sell)
J Sancho (Has to end of season to prove himself)
A Martial (Pay him off 1 year £12m and let him go on a free)


Back the Manager but keep him under control eg no overpaying, no Weghorst loans because he’s Dutch. We should be looking for 5/6 players - Mike Maignan(GK), K Min Jae(CB), Caciedo or D Rice(DM/CM), AM(M Kudas/J Maddison), R Hojlund(CF), E Ferguson( Striker)

We need two strikers no point buying Kane or osimhen for £120-140m when we can get both of E Ferguson and R Hojlund for £100m
 
And yet, if the last two transfer windows are anything to go by, we still have a structure where the manager is effectively our chief scout and DOF. I'll believe these supposed 'changes' when I see them.
The last two transfer windows have shown we have a new team in place that has replaced the outgoing team. The likes of Woodward, Judge, Bout, Lawlor, Solskjaer and Phelan are gone and have been replaced with the extra addition of a data science lead. And you have to give them at least a season because the club has never had a DoF structure before. It's important to understand how a structure functions under a DoF model and not allow yourself to fall victim to the paranoia of the Woodward era.

And there isn't anything wrong with ten Hag suggesting transfer targets, as far as those transfers targets are being assessed by the heads of recruitment. It has been reported about ten Hag asking the heads of scouting to watch the likes of Kudus and Timber and run the rule over them. That is very different to what was happening before where players were being signed by scouts who were working independently for the managers.

A lot of damage was done under the Woodward era and some of the contracts handed out by Woodward/Judge are going to be a challenge to remove from the wage bill. It was widely reported last season about the Glazers only making £120m available to spend on transfers and that only changed in the last few weeks after the defeats to Brighton and Brentford. And in that scenario it's very difficult to get a reasonable deal due to the owners leaving it late, which strengthens the hand of the selling club so late in the window.





 
No, it's not about us having different expectations. It's about me being realistic about where we are now as a club versus where we should be.

With the resources United have we should be challenging for the title every year. But we have been mismanaged at the top level for over a decade, had owners bleeding the club for nearly 2 decades.

So the point is having realistic expectations for Erik taking over an absolute shitshow. You may think k just because the club name is Manchester United we have a divine right to challenge. I've explained to you why that is not the case. Doesn't mean I'm happy or not disappointed about it. But I blame the right people, not Erik.
It has nothing to do with the name Manchester United. Only spoiled fans who have never experienced bad times think like that. It has all about us having different expectations. I believe ETH and our team have the capacity for reaching the top and Inset my expectations accordingly. Reaching top 4 is really bare minimum for my expectations. Over the last seasons I have set my expectations higher than our performance at least three times over the last ten years. But still, I don’t think top 4 is amazing, it’s bare minimum. If you expect less from ETH and the team it’s fine with me, just we have different expectations.
 
The last two transfer windows have shown we have a new team in place that has replaced the outgoing team. The likes of Woodward, Judge, Bout, Lawlor, Solskjaer and Phelan are gone and have been replaced with the extra addition of a data science lead. And you have to give them at least a season because the club has never had a DoF structure before. It's important to understand how a structure functions under a DoF model and not allow yourself to fall victim to the paranoia of the Woodward era.

And there isn't anything wrong with ten Hag suggesting transfer targets, as far as those transfers targets are being assessed by the heads of recruitment. It has been reported about ten Hag asking the heads of scouting to watch the likes of Kudus and Timber and run the rule over them. That is very different to what was happening before where players were being signed by scouts who were working independently for the managers.

A lot of damage was done under the Woodward era and some of the contracts handed out by Woodward/Judge are going to be a challenge to remove from the wage bill. It was widely reported last season about the Glazers only making £120m available to spend on transfers and that only changed in the last few weeks after the defeats to Brighton and Brentford. And in that scenario it's very difficult to get a reasonable deal due to the owners leaving it late, which strengthens the hand of the selling club so late in the window.







Thank you mate, thank you. Seriously.
 
And what was Rangnick supposed to do when he wasn't allowed to buy or replace players? Ten Hag is doing a very good job, don't get me wrong, but the whole squad is still the same shit apart from Rashford. His backbone are his new players and we've seen what happens when we have no Casemiro, Martinez or Eriksen in the team.
I remember there were times when we were starting to look like a coached pressing side under him but couldn't finish our chances so just free apart quickly. Wasn't as shit as people made out under the circumstances,not saying he was better than ETH by the way. Just felt he got unfair criticism
 
That team last night was so far away from the team he would put out if we had no injuries or suspensions. And the individual mistakes were horrendous. So he has my full sympathy for that.

However he should have set us up differently and compromised on some of his ideas. He set some of the players up to fail. Expecting Maguire to play out from the back like Licha will just end in tears.

Best we can hope is that some of these jokers have played their way out of the club this summer.

Yet another squad overhaul is needed.
4 of the front 6 were his signings and Martial would be 1st choice if 0 injuries anyway.
 
I am not yet fully convinced with Ten Haag though I hear the media and fans praising him -
Here are my arguments
1-it is too early to praise him much now.. we have to wait at least till end of season
2- Finishing top 4 is not a progress as Ole, Mourinho and Van gall did too
3- Spending 80 plus mil on Anthony ..you question his judgement
4 Spending close to 50 mil on Martinez is still bit high although you can argue his performance is okay
4- His results this season shows the club is still fragile. the losses to Liverpool , City..Brentford..and Sevilla ..etc
6 -Now he has amost full season I personally think we should full evaluate him by how many he players he is going to get rid of and how many players he can bring (with the help of recruitment department.)
7/ Some of players are overused esp Bruno and also martinez..varane..they might run out of steam at the end of season
8/ I personally think Eriksson is no 10 and should be used as backup for Bruno and bring a number 8...it has many advantages
On his defense
**Sometimes we don't know how much power or influence he has ( though we assume he has ).. there are board of directors and owners after all..
**It is his first season in the premier league
**the team plays better as a team than before

Just a whole lot of crap. The only thing that I agree with you is Antony. Yes, there were heavy defeats but I think it is down to the players rather than ETH. We have a mentally strong coach but unfortunately, we have mentally weak players. No managers dare to drop Maguire and he came in a drop him almost immediately. He gave Sancho a break hoping he comes back stronger but unfortunately, it didn't happen. Without ETH, I am quite sure we would finish 6-8. Ole and Jose, you could see the team started well and ended struggling before they left. Players lost faith with them, I don't see that happening with ETH.
 
Whereas I really respect the way that Brighton is run, and it’s a perfect fit for their stadium, their revenues, their support level, we shouldn’t be run that way. We are a destination club like Real Madrid, Barca, Bayern, Juventus etc. Real pays top dollar for youngsters and veterans alike and they never stop winning. Brighton will never win a PL or CL.

Now, if you are saying that our management is shit, our scouting is shit, our coaching was shit, then you are absolutely correct. But for that to change, we need an ownership change. However, we should always be in for the best talent, both on the pitch, coaching, scouting and in management suite. I think that is more a Real / Bayern / Juventus club building style, not Brighton.

Oh I agree. My following post was somewhere along the lines of me not thinking that Brightons approach is the perfect one. I was alluding to us having an actual structure like them, not really copying the one they have.
 
This has not really been discussed from what I've seen, but if he's ruthless then he'll sign a new starting CB to pair with Martinez. Varane if a crock and history has shown us that a settled CB pairing is crucial. I just don't think Varane has a full season in him.
 
Just a whole lot of crap. The only thing that I agree with you is Antony. Yes, there were heavy defeats but I think it is down to the players rather than ETH. We have a mentally strong coach but unfortunately, we have mentally weak players. No managers dare to drop Maguire and he came in a drop him almost immediately. He gave Sancho a break hoping he comes back stronger but unfortunately, it didn't happen. Without ETH, I am quite sure we would finish 6-8. Ole and Jose, you could see the team started well and ended struggling before they left. Players lost faith with them, I don't see that happening with ETH.

I'd argue that with ETH we'd finish 6-8 in previous seasons, playing the way we have. We've been fortunate in the drop off in a few of the other top teams and also winning games where we've not played well at all. Ok we won a cup, but look at the run of fixtures in that competition, mostly at home too.

In terms of results Vs performances, I believe we've been quite fortunate this season and it's not sustainable. If we don't improve massively then there's a real chance we'll find ourselves back where we were
 
Is ETH the best manager in the world ? No
Could he be ? Possibly
Has he like every other manager now realised just how shite and toxic our club is because six entitled morons inherited the greatest club in the world, left it to be run and controlled by a banker who was completely clueless and managed the club to ruin by going after popular players in the press who don’t fit the managers style to turn Man United into Mercenaries United.

This is why we need to give him a little respect and time he has a win rate 69% 36 from 52 games, however he has lost 9 games and he’s lost them too easily so he needs to learn how to stay in big games and not be so open. The club needs to move out at least 9-10 players this summer as they clearly can’t either be coached to be champions or have the mentality to play for united. The bigger question is will Murtourgh and Arnold be in position to help him from June to August or will other People come in and radically change the script, quite possibly.

Right now Time is up for the Following;

D De Gea (offer £100k per week, make him number 2, if he’s not happy sell)
D Henderson ( Just Sell however if De Gea goes we might have to keep)
H Maguire (Gone)
V Lindelof ( Maybe we keep but he’s Swedens captain and Inter Milan are interested we should do a swap with Bastoni plus cash )
E Bailey (Sell)
B Williams (Sell)
A Teles (Sell)
Fred (Sell)
Sabitzer ( See how he performs then decide)
Weghorst (No Thank you )
A Elanga (Sell)
J Sancho (Has to end of season to prove himself)
A Martial (Pay him off 1 year £12m and let him go on a free)


Back the Manager but keep him under control eg no overpaying, no Weghorst loans because he’s Dutch. We should be looking for 5/6 players - Mike Maignan(GK), K Min Jae(CB), Caciedo or D Rice(DM/CM), AM(M Kudas/J Maddison), R Hojlund(CF), E Ferguson( Striker)

We need two strikers no point buying Kane or osimhen for £120-140m when we can get both of E Ferguson and R Hojlund for £100m

Totally agree. The only problem is how much fund does he get. I hope he get all his target in early so that they can have full pre-season. We Will definitely start well when that happen. Keeping the core players with 2-3 tweaks is likely to improve our game. Caceido, K Min Jea and 1 good striker into XI would be great.
 
I am not yet fully convinced with Ten Haag though I hear the media and fans praising him -
Here are my arguments
1-it is too early to praise him much now.. we have to wait at least till end of season
2- Finishing top 4 is not a progress as Ole, Mourinho and Van gall did too
3- Spending 80 plus mil on Anthony ..you question his judgement
4 Spending close to 50 mil on Martinez is still bit high although you can argue his performance is okay
4- His results this season shows the club is still fragile. the losses to Liverpool , City..Brentford..and Sevilla ..etc
6 -Now he has amost full season I personally think we should full evaluate him by how many he players he is going to get rid of and how many players he can bring (with the help of recruitment department.)
7/ Some of players are overused esp Bruno and also martinez..varane..they might run out of steam at the end of season
8/ I personally think Eriksson is no 10 and should be used as backup for Bruno and bring a number 8...it has many advantages
On his defense
**Sometimes we don't know how much power or influence he has ( though we assume he has ).. there are board of directors and owners after all..
**It is his first season in the premier league
**the team plays better as a team than before
3&4 - not his fault that the board is inept, he doesnt decide player's pricetag. Anthony was cheaper than the asking price but they thought they could low ball, ended up overpaying anyway.
6 - Again. Not up to him to get rid these players. He can make suggestions, whenever they get sold & replaced or not up to club. This is another highlight how United is poorly run club.
7 - Our backup is incredibly bad compare to first team. Everytime Bruno, Martinez, casemiro dont play, United get overrun by literally anyone. Did he ask for Maguire, Fred, McTomminey? No. Another highlight how shitty club is run.
 
I'd argue that with ETH we'd finish 6-8 in previous seasons, playing the way we have. We've been fortunate in the drop off in a few of the other top teams and also winning games where we've not played well at all. Ok we won a cup, but look at the run of fixtures in that competition, mostly at home too.

In terms of results Vs performances, I believe we've been quite fortunate this season and it's not sustainable. If we don't improve massively then there's a real chance we'll find ourselves back where we were

We are on course for 76 points. That would be top 4 any season.
 
The last two transfer windows have shown we have a new team in place that has replaced the outgoing team. The likes of Woodward, Judge, Bout, Lawlor, Solskjaer and Phelan are gone and have been replaced with the extra addition of a data science lead. And you have to give them at least a season because the club has never had a DoF structure before. It's important to understand how a structure functions under a DoF model and not allow yourself to fall victim to the paranoia of the Woodward era.

And there isn't anything wrong with ten Hag suggesting transfer targets, as far as those transfers targets are being assessed by the heads of recruitment. It has been reported about ten Hag asking the heads of scouting to watch the likes of Kudus and Timber and run the rule over them. That is very different to what was happening before where players were being signed by scouts who were working independently for the managers.

A lot of damage was done under the Woodward era and some of the contracts handed out by Woodward/Judge are going to be a challenge to remove from the wage bill. It was widely reported last season about the Glazers only making £120m available to spend on transfers and that only changed in the last few weeks after the defeats to Brighton and Brentford. And in that scenario it's very difficult to get a reasonable deal due to the owners leaving it late, which strengthens the hand of the selling club so late in the window.






Okay fair enough, we've put a new team in place to support the manager. Based on what we've seen from them so far, I'm not convinced. How do you explain: spending all summer chasing Frenkie de Jong, signing Weghorst in January, and offering de Gea a new 200k/week contract? Hopefully these are just growing pains and they get their shit together this summer, otherwise they will hang ETH out to dry and the never-ending cycle is just going to continue.
 
this time last year I'd have jumped at the chance to be in this position now

there are a lot of issues with this squad that will take more than one window and one season to solve

the collective mental strength is still pretty weak as we've seen a number of times this season, and that shit takes a long time to fix

Erik has been brilliant for the most part but shown weaknesses in some areas.. I'd back him to improve on his weaknesses, as that is the sort of person he is

onwards and upwards and he has my full support
 
I really hope that the new guy from Adidas(who's a united fan) that Murtough appointed for the role that Matt Judge did for us in the transfer window all this years won't be a complete incompetent and could pull off some signings and sales(If he's in charge of it too)
 
Okay fair enough, we've put a new team in place to support the manager. Based on what we've seen from them so far, I'm not convinced. How do you explain: spending all summer chasing Frenkie de Jong, signing Weghorst in January, and offering de Gea a new 200k/week contract? Hopefully these are just growing pains and they get their shit together this summer, otherwise they will hang ETH out to dry and the never-ending cycle is just going to continue.
I think before I answer your questions, I have to make clear about what I expect from the people leading on the structural side of the football club. And that is that they first and foremost have a strategy on how they want to develop a playing style that befits a club of United's stature. And I've seen ample evidence thus far from the way they went about appointing coaches in the youth teams (McKenna/Cochrane) to appointing Erik ten Hag at first team level with the use of data/analytics and a clear criteria in mind with the aim of developing a proactive attacking play style, which will hopefully trickle down to the younger age groups. Good coaches don't last long at youth level, so the likes of McKenna and Cochrane are now coaching at first team level. And our Women's team, which was said to be created from scratch by John Murtough in 2018, is in a genuine title race with a few games to go. Which is remarkable considering the likes of City, Arsenal and Chelsea have a bigger transfer budget.

And according to reports, a data scientist (Alex Kleyn) will join at the start of next season whose background is one where he helps under age teams at youth level align their play style with the first team, which can potentially help both the first team head coach and the prospective young hopefuls who are looking to make the step up to the first team.

Why i'm telling you this is because without having a strong foundation already at the club where the development of players and performance at all levels is prioritised by the heads of the various football departments, a club cannot effectively operate in the transfer market. So like I say, it's important to understand the whole structure because that structure was incomplete until the arrival of John Murtough, who has a history of working within football and was first promoted in the late 90s by Walter Smith at Everton, where he made Murtough the head of performance at first team level. This is a football guy known to be a big believer in developing teams with data analytics.

Unfortunately there wasn't much money to spend in January according to reports. And if the Glazers had made funds available in January, then i'm sure the likes of Jose Mayorga could've recommended some players. But if there's no money available to spend, then Weghorst becomes a genuine stop gap option. Liverpool did the same under Klopp, where they had to bring in a stop gap in the form of Steven Caulker who was a CB, but Klopp utilised him as a emergency striker in his short loan stint which came to an end due to Caulker's drunk and disorderly offences.

And as far as De Gea is concerned, I haven't seen any reports about him potentially being offered 200k a week, but rather the reports state that he's either being offered a reduced contract with bonuses dependant on how many games he starts (sounds like a back up keeper contract). Or he's been told he won't be offered anything more than what has supposedly already been offered, or he will be offloaded at the end of the season according to the United reporter for the Daily Mirror.

Whatever the issue with de Jong was, it doesn't really matter imo. What matters is that every player that was signed, is a fit for the way ten Hag wants to develop the team. And we're about 3 players short in the first phase of the build up to be a very dominant team. And what happens next with the ownership will decide our chances going into next season. We need players who are comfortable with the ball under pressure starting with the keeper, RB and with another midfielder who is comfortable with the ball under the press. Players who have the touch and technique and then express themselves and play with courage is what is missing in the build up phase and hence we come a cropper against teams who are adept at closing off the space high up the pitch.
 
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Of course I am.

Eriksen you can somewhat give a pass to because he was free, but he's not good. He's okay when he's got time on the ball, but is a complete liability when teams actually come at us.

Casemiro is the third most expensive midfielder in the league behind De Bryune and Enzo Fernandez (4th overall with Pogba in there) and has trouble passing the ball. Not only that, but he's a complete lightweight under pressure. A terrible signing when you consider we could've bought multiple midfielders who would've complimented ten Hag's system for less than what he cost.
Jesus so much guff typed out in one post, I didn't think that was possible, bravo.
 
He's still on course to do better than I expected at the start of the season. We've had these kind of performances and results for years now under several managers to the point where it's obviously become a mental thing for the players. You can't expect him to be a miracle worker and solve those issues in less than a season.

Wanting a clear-out is a good sign but then again that seems to be said before every summer window so we'll wait and see. It's obviously not as easy as it sounds but he needs to be ruthless or it'll eventually cost him his job. I'd say the 3 key departures to signal that would be De Gea, Maguire and Martial. He's consistently praised them and spoke of their quality this season which is fair enough because he's needed them but it should be clear to him that we won't progress until they're replaced.
 
Needs to be braver. Drop Maguire and play Shaw at the back. It’s worked before. Drop DDG and give one of the other keepers a go. Can’t be any worse.
 
Noticed a few on here hoping DDG leaves. Isn’t he on the cusp of signing a new contract?
We’ve been negotiating a new deal supposedly but he’s not happy with what we’ve offered. If he doesn’t take that I don’t think the club will up it — think it’s in his court
 
We’ve been negotiating a new deal supposedly but he’s not happy with what we’ve offered. If he doesn’t take that I don’t think the club will up it — think it’s in his court
Do you mean the 1 year extension thing or like a whole now deal?
If its a new deal then we're in trouble in my opinion if he's our 1st team gk for the next 2-3 years.
 
So what its a miracle to get 58 points in 30 games?

I agree that Ten Hag has done a very good job but its no way a miracle. That is what I am disputing with posters who think it is a miracle job.

I'm not saying it's a miracle, but it's not like Artetas team suddenly went from 8th to fighting for the league.

He had three years to cultivate his style of play and get in the players he wanted, even if they are about to choke away the league.
 
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