Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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He’s done OK. I don’t think he has worked any miracles to be honest. I do see some progress, but I’m also concerned with the heavy defeats that at this point feel very common too.

Ultimately, I think it’s best to just look at Ten Hag like any other manager rather than a miracle worker or “the one” or whatever. I also don’t think he’s beyond criticism just because it’s his first season.
 
The only real whinge I have about Erik is he plays his way no matter whose in the team. He should know Maguire/Lindelof can't play as Martinez/Varane do so shouldn't have them try to. Even with the main guys in we're too predictable playing it out, have been sussed out for a while and it can be quite hairy at times. Just adapt to whose playing and wait until you've got a lot more of your own players in before sticking to plan A most of the time. I look forward to how we'll do when it's fully Erik's team out there.
 
Telsim said:
Isn't contract amortisation done for the inital fee and just for accounting purposes and FFP? But the money is being paid nonetheless? And I think we'd be able to sell Maguire for some fee, but not Martial or Sancho. No one would pay the wages we do, and they've got no reason to leave for less.

Releasing them early would mean reaching a settlement, which almost certainly includes paying most if not all of their remaining wage for the duration of the contract. They have no reason to accept otherwise, even if they are sent to the U-21s for the reminder of the contract. Sancho is contracted until 2026, which means the club would have to pay him more than £60M to release. Obviously not possible. For Martial it would be, like £15M or something.

I think we are just stuck with them. But we could shift most of the rest... if we can replace them.
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Following the logic here:
Wages are included in amortisation.

Yeah they probably won't want to take a pay cut, unless they really want first team football, but we can pay the player off without paying the whole contract out, for example with Sanchez, I think we let him leave for free and paid him the difference in his new wages to get him off the book.
 
HookedOnAPhelan said:
It’s a sink-or-swim approach. Either prove you can play this type of football or you’re (hopefully) out. Arteta, Klopp and Pep all did this when they took over. We may take some short-term hits for it, but I think we’ll reap the rewards in the long-term.
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It might be true, but he got the exact same critics in Ajax. Way to rigid about it. And it also depends on the owners, are they willing to pay up for such changes? They just invested in Sancho for about 80m plus over 300k pw... I fear the worst
 
Big Ben Foster said:
To your point, whose brilliant idea was it to pay Sancho 300k/week or Williams 80k/week, for instance? Even the most amateur negotiator would've realized there was no competition for their signatures and all the bargaining power was on our side of the table.
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We have the worst team of negotiators when it comes to transfer fees and wages.
I believe that the Sancho deal was completed by Matt Judge who was terrible at his job.
During the last decade or so, they've kept giving jobs to "the boys" and not to the best people qualified for the roles.
If we get Middle Eastern owners I guarantee that they will not suffer fools lightly. They'll demand that we get the best people in key roles and all these issues should disappear.
 
That team last night was so far away from the team he would put out if we had no injuries or suspensions. And the individual mistakes were horrendous. So he has my full sympathy for that.

However he should have set us up differently and compromised on some of his ideas. He set some of the players up to fail. Expecting Maguire to play out from the back like Licha will just end in tears.

Best we can hope is that some of these jokers have played their way out of the club this summer.

Yet another squad overhaul is needed.
 
Andersonson said:
It might be true, but he got the exact same critics in Ajax. Way to rigid about it. And it also depends on the owners, are they willing to pay up for such changes? They just invested in Sancho for about 80m plus over 300k pw... I fear the worst
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Maybe. But I trust him for now, and I expect him to make the proper changes in the summer.

Sancho is on £250k by the way according to The Athletic.
 
Judas said:
I still think as long as we finish top 4 we’ve had a better season than I expected.
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Rusholme Ruffian said:
United fans: "boo, that's not the United Way" after Mourinho secures an away draw at Anfield to keep us top of the league.

Also United fans: "wah, we've lost too many away games by big margins - the manager should learn to shut up shop and avoid a pounding" after a depleted United side lose away to Sevilla during a season in which our new manager has the highest win rate of any of our previous managers in his first 50 games.

In the spirit of criticising posts rather than posters some of the posts in this thread are right old cnuts.
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I don’t think that’s what really happened do you?

Or let’s put it this way, do you prefer getting hammered 7-0 at Anfield or would you prefer a 0-0 stink the place out draw?
 
If we hadn’t been hammered by teams often this season we’d just put these freak results down to injuries, suspensions, tough away games, players not being up to it.

But when you’re routinely outplayed by a team that fancies it more than you do and they could have won by any score line imaginable it’s much harder to hide, and people will rightly question your ability.
 
crossy1686 said:
Without CL football he is, with CL football and add-ons it’s £350k
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The Athletic reported he'd get £250k + bonuses, which makes sense given Rashford was on £200k + bonuses and Martial was on £250k + bonuses when he signed. Both considerably older.

But maybe I'm wrong, do you have a more reliable source?
 
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crossy1686 said:
Yep, which is why it’s within everyone’s interests that he’s moved on before it happens.
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Same old problem with this club.

Why would Sancho move on from United if no club is willing to match his wages. Plus, who would pay money anyway near the fee we paid after two below par seasons.

Sancho won't want to go. Arnold won't let him go. We're stuck with him.
 
Sviken said:
And what was Rangnick supposed to do when he wasn't allowed to buy or replace players? Ten Hag is doing a very good job, don't get me wrong, but the whole squad is still the same shit apart from Rashford. His backbone are his new players and we've seen what happens when we have no Casemiro, Martinez or Eriksen in the team.
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The job he was actually being paid for. Managing the team to an at least an acceptable standard. He failed miserably. I could’ve criticised the players for a lot less money,
 
HookedOnAPhelan said:
The Athletic reported he'd get £250k + bonuses, which makes sense given Rashford was on £200k + bonuses and Martial was on £250k + bonuses when he signed. Both considerably older.

But maybe I'm wrong, do you have a more reliable source?
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I think the whole squad is on a 20%-25% reduction if they don’t get in the CL? That’s always been the norm, which pissed players like Ronaldo off who feel like he did his part to get the team to qualify.
 
crossy1686 said:
I think the whole squad is on a 20%-25% reduction if they don’t get in the CL? That’s always been the norm, which pissed players like Ronaldo off who feel like he did his part to get the team to qualify.
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They are (most of them anyway, there might be exceptions, like players who signed the summer after we had failed to qualify, and thus had no part in it, like Casemiro), but Sancho signed when we had qualified for the CL the season before. I'm not sure if the CL qualification counts as a bonus here. I think it's reasonable to assume he got basic wage of £250k + (other) bonuses, and that he'd get a 25% reduction on that basic wage if we didn't qualify for the CL (which we didn't in his first season).

The £350k number just seems inflated compared to our other players. But it was on Woody's watch so who knows.
 
HookedOnAPhelan said:
They are (most of them anyway, maybe there are exceptions), but Sancho signed when we had qualified for the CL the season before.
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Yeah so he would have been on £350k at first and now it’s £250k right?

Did a quick google and most outlets are saying £350k and they seem to be quoting this source:https://www.capology.com/player/jadon-sancho-36610/

Not sure how reliable they are but people seem to trust them
 
Di Maria's angel said:
Not sure if you saw the post from one of the Brighton supporters on here but it was very insightful on how they've been built from bottom to top. They have a structure that we can only dream of. Our scattergun approach, in regards to signing players, before this season has been awful but I do like most of the players we've recruited recently so hopefully that bodes well for the future.
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Whereas I really respect the way that Brighton is run, and it’s a perfect fit for their stadium, their revenues, their support level, we shouldn’t be run that way. We are a destination club like Real Madrid, Barca, Bayern, Juventus etc. Real pays top dollar for youngsters and veterans alike and they never stop winning. Brighton will never win a PL or CL.

Now, if you are saying that our management is shit, our scouting is shit, our coaching was shit, then you are absolutely correct. But for that to change, we need an ownership change. However, we should always be in for the best talent, both on the pitch, coaching, scouting and in management suite. I think that is more a Real / Bayern / Juventus club building style, not Brighton.
 
crossy1686 said:
Yeah so he would have been on £350k at first and now it’s £250k right?

Did a quick google and most outlets are saying £350k and they seem to be quoting this source:https://www.capology.com/player/jadon-sancho-36610/

Not sure how reliable they are but people seem to trust them
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No, The Athletic reported he'd get £250k + bonuses when we signed him.

Look, I don't know. None of us do. It just doesn't make sense for us to give him such a monster wage compared to our other players at the time. I think it's far more likely he was at best given wages that put him on a similar level to people like Martial and Rashford - both of whom are considerably older. That's why I'm calling bullshit on the £350k number, even if that clown Woodward was in charge at the time.
 
Big Ben Foster said:
Agree 100%. It would be a measure to try to get us out of a situation we should've never found ourselves in.

To your point, whose brilliant idea was it to pay Sancho 300k/week or Williams 80k/week, for instance? Even the most amateur negotiator would've realized there was no competition for their signatures and all the bargaining power was on our side of the table.
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The cretin Woodward thought that "we could do things in the market no one else can" means callously throwing money away at any player he or the manager wants. And that any player or club you can't convince by words, you can convince by cash. There were also seemingly other considerations, like Pogba's embarassing social media agenda. And there's also this weird sentimentality that pervades the club. Academy players that should have been sold years ago are kept on because they suddenly might become world class, despite that pretty much never being the case. We wait until they have proven beyond any doubt they are not at all good and either let them go for free or sell them for peanuts.

Senior players should be cut loose when their contracts are running out, unless they are both an integral part and continue to perform. For example, I would never have paid De Gea that amount of money. Or Martial. You set a sort of wage cap, obviously varies from player to player, and deal around that with some flexibility. If the player isn't happy, then too bad, sell and replace. But you don't go out of your way to fully satisfy them. Look at City or Real Madrid. They have no qualms about cutting players loose. No club gets everything right, but we have the ability to get most things wrong.

I just think that ever since SAF retired, the club has danced to the demands of others, instead of them dancing to the demands of the club. The man's overwhelming presence had caused him to monopolize the killer instinct and ruthlessness in the club. So that when he left, those that were left were completely clueless.
 
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Ish said:
People just need to relax and take a breathe. There was a massive amount of distraction and to fix when he just got into the job. Everyone would have gladly taken top 4 and a cup at the start of the season and it they’re saying otherwise….I wouldn’t believe them.

We’ve also struggled with injuries and literally have zero reliable CF’s due to mismanagement from the (previous) Board. It’s a good season to build on, IMO (assuming we see out and achieve top 4 and we could even win another cup!). Inconsistent performances were always going to happen - it happened to Klopp & Pep as well, especially as you’re trying to fit square pegs into round holes.

If we’re able to address another few key positions during the summer (CF, CM, GK, RB) and move on (a lot of!) players not fit for purpose, and if we’re still then going through the same issues mid to end next season, then I’d start worrying and questioning the manager.
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Oh come on! £250m afterwards and he hits exactly the same brickwall as Ole at exactly the same time of the season. When the going gets hard and it hurts a little a lot of this team/squad go missing. And he has been using almost exactly the same tactics to win matches, quick forward play on the break.
ETH is OK but he is no better than the last two managers. The problem lies and has been there for some time, with the purchases and lack of sales. Sancho is poor, Anthony would have been OK at half the price etc etc. We can all see the problems, its not rocket science. But now with the constraints on transfers its going to take two or three mediocre seasons to get out of this mess financially. And only then if every purchase is spot on, which is difficult.
A 'pot' and a top four finish will be a minor miracle with this lot, and whatever anyone tries to argue , only possible because of Liverpool and Chelsea having such dreadful seasons.
 
HookedOnAPhelan said:
No, The Athletic reported he'd get £250k + bonuses when we signed him.

Look, I don't know. None of us do. It just doesn't make sense for us to give him such a monster wage compared to our other players at the time. I think it's far more likely he was at best given wages that put him on a similar level to people like Martial and Rashford - both of whom are considerably older. That's why I'm calling bullshit on the £350k number, even if that clown Woodward was in charge at the time.
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Yeah you’re probably right but it will be interesting to see what Rashford wage will be when he signs a new contract and if there’s parity with Sancho mentioned.

The only reason I believe it is because we chased him for so long.
 
humdinger said:
That team last night was so far away from the team he would put out if we had no injuries or suspensions. And the individual mistakes were horrendous. So he has my full sympathy for that.

However he should have set us up differently and compromised on some of his ideas. He set some of the players up to fail. Expecting Maguire to play out from the back like Licha will just end in tears.

Best we can hope is that some of these jokers have played their way out of the club this summer.

Yet another squad overhaul is needed.
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It's not another squad overhaul, it's just that it was never going to take more than one season. Realistically need another summer window with a high success rate to realistically compete. For a team in transition, a trophy and top 4 isn't too shabby.
 
SouthMancRed said:
The only real whinge I have about Erik is he plays his way no matter whose in the team. He should know Maguire/Lindelof can't play as Martinez/Varane do so shouldn't have them try to. Even with the main guys in we're too predictable playing it out, have been sussed out for a while and it can be quite hairy at times. Just adapt to whose playing and wait until you've got a lot more of your own players in before sticking to plan A most of the time. I look forward to how we'll do when it's fully Erik's team out there.
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Absolutely, I said as much in the post match thread.

ETH failed to address what he knew Sevilla were going to do. They were going to press high with extremely high energy during goal kicks. They were going commit 5 to the press and drop 5 to avoid getting done on the counter, leaving huge spaces in the middle of the pitch. We did play out of the back in the first half of the first leg and Bruno created multiple chances with good balls in behind. We didn’t have Bruno for the 2nd leg and we’re also missing Lisandro and Varane. Asking Sabitzer, Maguire and Lindelof to do things they aren’t very good at is a recipe for disaster. He should have played Eriksen in the Bruno spot and brought in Fred to sit next to Casemiro. Shaw should have started at left CB with Lindelof at RCB and Maguire on the bench.

Furthermore, he knew Sevilla was going to overload the wings and instead of using Fred, who is good at pressure and ball winning, he opted for Eriksen. Obviously, hindsight is 20/20, but he’d used Eriksen further forward and knew he could play those Bruno type balls into space.

No one is perfect. But I think ETH should take the criticism, as in this case, he truly deserves it.
 
DSG said:
Whereas I really respect the way that Brighton is run, and it’s a perfect fit for their stadium, their revenues, their support level, we shouldn’t be run that way. We are a destination club like Real Madrid, Barca, Bayern, Juventus etc. Real pays top dollar for youngsters and veterans alike and they never stop winning. Brighton will never win a PL or CL.

Now, if you are saying that our management is shit, our scouting is shit, our coaching was shit, then you are absolutely correct. But for that to change, we need an ownership change. However, we should always be in for the best talent, both on the pitch, coaching, scouting and in management suite. I think that is more a Real / Bayern / Juventus club building style, not Brighton.
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Yep, totall agreed. Brighton does it their way because it fits their club. Why should United look down the table on how to operate? They just need to operate at a higher and improved way, which has changed for the better especially after the appointment of EtH by Murtough and the exit of Woodward.

It's very competitive at the top and it's easier to manage your way to the edge of a European place, which Brighton haven't done so (yet), so why use them as an example?
 
dubplate warrior said:
It's not another squad overhaul, it's just that it was never going to take more than one season. Realistically need another summer window with a high success rate to realistically compete. For a team in transition, a trophy and top 4 isn't too shabby.
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Let’s actually book a place in the top 4 before we get all warm and fuzzy. Given that Martinez is out until the end of the season and Varane likely a few more matches, ETH has his work cut out for him. Martial injured again, Sancho pure crap, Garnacho still not available… He’s going to need to get results from a really thin squad.
 
edcunited1878 said:
Yep, totall agreed. Brighton does it their way because it fits their club. Why should United look down the table on how to operate? They just need to operate at a higher and improved way, which has changed for the better especially after the appointment of EtH by Murtough and the exit of Woodward.

It's very competitive at the top and it's easier to manage your way to the edge of a European place, which Brighton haven't done so (yet), so why use them as an example?
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You don't use them as an example. You use them as resource. What you do as a big club is pilfer the best parts of smaller clubs and integrate them into yourself, be they players, personnel, or even operational ideas (though those usually get brought in by the personnel), thus constantly keeping yourself at the top. This is something that we have completely and utterly failed to do.
 
Telsim said:
You don't use them as an example. You use them as resource. What you do as a big club is pilfer the best parts of smaller clubs and integrate them into yourself, be they players, personnel, or even operational ideas (though those usually get brought in by the personnel), thus constantly keeping yourself at the top. This is something that we have completely and utterly failed to do.
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Yes, but it's not turnkey just because they are successful. For example, they have have the time and patience to build and build. United really don't and are building for CL and titles. United still haven't finished outside the top 6 in the PL era, I believe that's true or there abouts. And agent fees, salaries, etc are much more aggressive at the top rather than coming from Brighton, who wouldn't even entertain most players like that.

For most years under Woodward, United were not operated in an innovative and forward-thinking away. That has started to change under Murtough, but I don't think United are still near the top.

Chelsea poached Potter and a few more backroom staff at Brighton...look how that ended up when you used them as a resource and don't allow for the proper time, which isn't just 1 or 2 seasons let alone 5 months. So the structure and how it promotes and filters knowledge, best practices, and freedom to do what you're tasked to do at a high level is just as important, with the knowledge of time and patience.

Moyes was theoretically a safe choice...until he failed to allow himself to adapt to the club and the demands and the noise. He was supposed to be the centerpiece of it all, while allowing a title winning back room staff and structure work around him. But he was absolutely clueless in how it works at the highest level of the game. He sacked off the backroom staff of a title winning team under SAF and Woodward, who entered after Gill at the same time SAF and Gill departed, allowed it to happen.
 
Telsim said:
The cretin Woodward thought that "we could do things in the market no one else can" means callously throwing money away at any player he or the manager wants. And that any player or club you can't convince by words, you can convince by cash. There were also seemingly other considerations, like Pogba's embarassing social media agenda. And there's also this weird sentimentality that pervades the club. Academy players that should have been sold years ago are kept on because they suddenly might become world class, despite that pretty much never being the case. We wait until they have proven beyond any doubt they are not at all good and either let them go for free or sell them for peanuts.

Senior players should be cut loose when their contracts are running out, unless they are both an integral part and continue to perform. For example, I would never have paid De Gea that amount of money. Or Martial. You set a sort of wage cap, obviously varies from player to player, and deal around that with some flexibility. If the player isn't happy, then too bad, sell and replace. But you don't go out of your way to fully satisfy them. Look at City or Real Madrid. They have no qualms about cutting players loose. No club gets everything right, but we have the ability to get most things wrong.

I just think that ever since SAF retired, the club has danced to the demands of others, instead of them dancing to the demands of the club. The man's overwhelming presence had caused him to monopolize the killer instinct and ruthlessness in the club. So that when he left, those that were left were completely clueless.
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Good post. The hoarding of players has been just as damaging as the bad purchases. How was it that when Lingard had gone to West Ham, done well, and the club was getting good offers, the club saw that as a reason to keep him on. Woodward also used to brief the media about the policy of renewing contracts because it “held their value”.
 
edcunited1878 said:
Yes, but it's not turnkey just because they are successful. For example, they have have the time and patience to build and build. United really don't and are building for CL and titles. United still haven't finished outside the top 6 in the PL era, I believe that's true or there abouts. And agent fees, salaries, etc are much more aggressive at the top rather than coming from Brighton, who wouldn't even entertain most players like that.

For most years under Woodward, United were not operated in an innovative and forward-thinking away. That has started to change under Murtough, but I don't think United are still near the top.

Chelsea poached Potter and a few more backroom staff at Brighton...look how that ended up when you used them as a resource and don't allow for the proper time, which isn't just 1 or 2 seasons let alone 5 months. So the structure and how it promotes and filters knowledge, best practices, and freedom to do what you're tasked to do at a high level is just as important, with the knowledge of time and patience.

Moyes was theoretically a safe choice...until he failed to allow himself to adapt to the club and the demands and the noise. He was supposed to be the centerpiece of it all, while allowing a title winning back room staff and structure work around him. But he was absolutely clueless in how it works at the highest level of the game. He sacked off the backroom staff of a title winning team under SAF and Woodward, who entered after Gill at the same time SAF and Gill departed, allowed it to happen.
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You missed my point. You don't just go and uproot the smaller teams structure and put it in yours whenever. That's probably never going to go well. Instead, it should be an ongoing process. And you obviously take to improve, not just for the sake of taking. This is something we haven't done. Woodward should never have been in charge in the first place, and he should never have been in charge for so long. Not modernizing the stagnated structure over time after years and years of failure is unacceptable. The fact we waited so long to go for a DoF system is unacceptable. It should never have happened in the first place, but there was also no transition plan after SAF retired. Talent instead went to City, Liverpool, and other teams across Europe. We are just a club trailing years behind. Remains to be seen if that changes. And fish does rot from the head...
 
ForeverRed1 said:
maguire
Sancho
Awb
Bailey
Jones
Mctom
Fred
Martial
Elanga
Donny
Lindelof
B Williams

how much you reckon for them then?
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Salaries make it prohibitive... for example, there's a good chance we'll end up releasing someone like Brandon Williams on a free transfer. Players have to agree to a move and most of them won't if they'll be losing money out of the deal. I'd say realistically:

Free: B Williams / Jones
~ £5 million: Bailly / Elanga
~ £10-15 million: DVDB / Maguire / Fred / Lindelof / Martial
~ £15-20 million: McTominay / AWB
No takers: Sancho

Absolute maximum? About £100 million. I don't see us selling or being able to sell all those players, maybe not even half of them will leave this summer.
 
Gazza said:
Salaries make it prohibitive... for example, there's a good chance we'll end up releasing someone like Brandon Williams on a free transfer. Players have to agree to a move and most of them won't if they'll be losing money out of the deal. I'd say realistically:

Free: B Williams / Jones
~ £5 million: Bailly / Elanga
~ £10-15 million: DVDB / Maguire / Fred / Lindelof / Martial
~ £15-20 million: McTominay / AWB
No takers: Sancho

Absolute maximum? About £100 million. I don't see us selling or being able to sell all those players, maybe not even half of them will leave this summer.
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This is realistic even though I think Fred, Henderson, AWB and McTominay will generate 20-30m each. Telles and Tuanzebe will leave on a free.

I would sell Fred but we will probably get more money for McTominay.

Sancho is not possible to sell unfortunately.
 
Telsim said:
You missed my point. You don't just go and uproot the smaller teams structure and put it in yours whenever. That's probably never going to go well. Instead, it should be an ongoing process. And you obviously take to improve, not just for the sake of taking. This is something we haven't done. Woodward should never have been in charge in the first place, and he should never have been in charge for so long. Not modernizing the stagnated structure over time after years and years of failure is unacceptable. The fact we waited so long to go for a DoF system is unacceptable. It should never have happened in the first place, but there was also no transition plan after SAF retired. Talent instead went to City, Liverpool, and other teams across Europe. We are just a club trailing years behind. Remains to be seen if that changes. And fish does rot from the head...
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The system has changed quite significantly the past few years and ever since Murtough appointed EtH. @Adnan has done terrific posts about the football data science parts, overhaul of the scouting streams, etc. Still a little ways to go, but there's been clear changes and not just with EtH.
 
edcunited1878 said:
The system has changed quite significantly the past few years and ever since Murtough appointed EtH. @Adnan has done terrific posts about the football data science parts, overhaul of the scouting streams, etc. Still a little ways to go, but there's been clear changes and not just with EtH.
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As I said, all of that remains to be seen. But I'm sure you will understand if I don't exactly place much fate in Woodward's right hand man and another Glazer plant. So far it's been a mixed bag, but doesn't take much to be better than Woodward. In my opinion there is only one true solution - no Glazers.
 
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