Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[pogbasformerbarber]

Not dumb at all. Newcastle has massively surpassed expectations. Both are doing fairly good jobs but still have a lot of work to do. I think that's the point the OP was trying to make.

Newcastle had a 161MM net pound spend this summer, without any European games this season. They are certainly not a small club.

So we have (arguably) overachieved in the league and in all three tourneys we have been in so far. They have overachieved in the league and one tourney (where they lost to us ultimately)...they were bounced by Sheffield freakin Wednesday in the other. How is there even room for a comparison here?

It disregards the level of performance we have sustained comparatively by equaling the achievement. This is classic recency bias based on a run of poor results and just losing to them...

 

[MackRobinson]

Newcastle had a 161MM net pound spend this summer, without any European games this season. They are certainly not a small club.

So we have (arguably) overachieved in the league and in all three tourneys we have been in so far. They have overachieved in the league and one tourney (where they lost to us ultimately)...they were bounced by Sheffield freakin Wednesday in the other. How is there even room for a comparison here?

It disregards the level of performance we have sustained comparatively by equaling the achievement. This is classic recency bias based on a run of poor results and just losing to them...

How many people had Newcastle realistically fighting for CL spots or even making the CC final even with their spending? Not sure why you are fixated on their FA Cup exit when there is clear evidence they have overachieved in other aspects.

 

[crossy1686]

I take this in jest but if it isn't I take it you didnt watch the world cup then ? Taki taka overload with no result whatsoever.

I prefer to focus on what he did at Barcelona, which was improve a Pep side and win a treble, rather than what he did with a not so great Spanish side.

 

[redcafe_reader]

I know eventually our players will down tool, some pr plant will start seeding that not our players but ETH is the problem (I don't want to defend the player BUT!), then some fan will turn on him. Next step will be some "questions" from our "legend" in the media, and more fan will turn.

But honestly, it happen sooner than I thought. Maybe due to the incoming takeover? Like some player think that without ETH's influence and judgment, they can easily get the 500k per week from the Qatar?

To the Poc or Nagelsmann or Enrique's thread?

 

[pogbasformerbarber]

How many people had Newcastle realistically fighting for CL spots or even making the CC final even with their spending? Not sure why you are fixated on their FA Cup exit when there is clear evidence they have overachieved in other aspects.

I agree they've overachieved, but I don't think the managers are on nearly the same level IHMO. That's just my point. The original post seemed to ding ETH on the level of praise he's receiving, which I believe is commensurate to Howe...

 

[always_hoping]

every time, literally. Path of least effort I suppose

Great that you can laugh at yourself.

 

[lsd]

Top 4 is looking tricky now. I think he has done a good job despite some total brain farts he has sorted out a lot of our long standing problems yet not quite fixed some others.

I do wonder though if he fails to get top four and we do get new owners will he get more time?

 

[PoTMS]

He's done well but bottling top 4 will be a massive red flag alongside the batterings we've taken this season. I don't think it'll happen but the only way that'll be in any way acceptable is if we win the Europa League and the FA Cup.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

He's done well but bottling top 4 will be a massive red flag alongside the batterings we've taken this season. I don't think it'll happen but the only way that'll be in any way acceptable is if we win the Europa League and the FA Cup.

Bottling top 4 would be a disaster.

We need to start picking up some wins and fast.

 

[Rhyme Animal]

Top 4 is looking tricky now. I think he has done a good job despite some total brain farts he has sorted out a lot of our long standing problems yet not quite fixed some others.

I do wonder though if he fails to get top four and we do get new owners will he get more time?

If Utd fail to get Top 4 after being in the position they were, it’ll be because of ETH’s stupid decisions post January and he should be questioned. A more ruthless / ambitious owner might even pull the plug if he loses Top 4 and wins no other trophies this season.

If he persists with the Wout Carthorse ‘experiment’ / favouritism any further than he already has, he should be SERIOUSLY questioned imo.

I think Utd having such surreally bad management over the past 3 years has given him a lot of leeway, but his recent showings have been absolutely woeful, make no mistake.

If I were a new owner I’d want an absolutely TOP coach at Utd, as Utd should have, and ETH is perhaps not quite at that level.

How / If he turns this around will be crucial, because anything other than a Top 4 finish, from where Utd were is a massive failure.

As such, Brentford is basically a must win game for him.

 

[bosnian_red]

Top 4 is looking tricky now. I think he has done a good job despite some total brain farts he has sorted out a lot of our long standing problems yet not quite fixed some others.

I do wonder though if he fails to get top four and we do get new owners will he get more time?

Top 4 doesn't look tricky at all. We can literally lose every single away game and win the home games and we'd still qualify. We are level on points with Spurs despite 2 games in hand, and the easiest fixture list of the competitors remaining.

 

[bucky]

For all the praise he's received, all that separates EtH from Eddie Howe, purely results wise, is a performance in a league cup final.

Context tells us EtH has achieved more, but we should also be careful before thinking he's the one. There's a lot of work to be done yet.

Absolute nonsense. Eddie Howe would not have done what ten Hag did to Barcelona.

 

[Berbasbullet]

For all the praise he's received, all that separates EtH from Eddie Howe, purely results wise, is a performance in a league cup final.

Context tells us EtH has achieved more, but we should also be careful before thinking he's the one. There's a lot of work to be done yet.

Plus an FA cup and Europa run?

 

[bosnian_red]

We’ve definitely progressed results wise, but not sure if the style of play is that much better than some of the football we played under Ole. Ten Hag deserves criticism for the last few matches, it’s not enough to just be better than Ole or Ralf.

Style of play has taken a down swing with the build up of fixtures for sure. But also - its a mix and match squad, we have injuries and suspensions to key players where the system doesn't have adequate backups, other players who are there because we have nobody else, and so on. It's hard to criticize style of play when we had plenty of games where it very good, very clear patterns.. and then recently seeing it decline with no eriksen (our only reliable passer in midfield), no casemiro (our only DM), weghorst being our only striker as Martial is perma crocked...

We play de Gea every week and likely will next season too, yet a ball playing goalkeeper is vital for Ten Hags system. As is a press resistant deep midfielder. And we likely won't have either next season. It's about incremental improvements while ten hag tries to get the results despite not having his own squad that fits him.

 

[Garethw]

The most worrying thing for me is he doesn’t seem to be able to motivate the team at the moment.

A top manager gets players running through walls for him.

I’m extremely worried at the moment. We desperately need a decisive win against Brentford to get back on the right track.

 

[bosnian_red]

For all the praise he's received, all that separates EtH from Eddie Howe, purely results wise, is a performance in a league cup final.

Context tells us EtH has achieved more, but we should also be careful before thinking he's the one. There's a lot of work to be done yet.

And being in the fa cup semi final. And being in the Europa League quarter finals. Very different being level on 3rd when you are succeeding in every cup competition vs someone who has done nothing but focus on the league essentially.

Howe has done a great job, but purely results wise, United is having an excellent season. Because cups obviously matter and cups obviously have an impact on league games.

 

[BuzzKillington]

Bottling top 4 would be a disaster.

We need to start picking up some wins and fast.

Personally if you offered me the choice I’d take 5th alongside the FA Cup and a Europa league trophies. Last time I checked they weren’t giving out trophies for finishing third and 10+ points off first place. It’d be mildly disappointing, given the context of the season, rather than a disaster.

 

[lsd]

He's done well but bottling top 4 will be a massive red flag alongside the batterings we've taken this season. I don't think it'll happen but the only way that'll be in any way acceptable is if we win the Europa League and the FA Cup.

Well if we win the Europa he would be safe even missing the top four.

Ultimately it's the amount of games on a squad that isn't good enough to rotate enough or suffer a couple of injuries that is hurting us right now.

If Jose was managing us we probably would have either binned the cups or else the league and concentrated on one.

Eric is going for it all and with that squad it's going to be tight

 

[A-man]

it’s his first season. He has exceeded expectations for a first season, aslong as we get top 4. He is the second manager in the PL era to win a trophy in his first season. He needs a couple more transfer windows and time to truely see his style of play. He’s doing great so far.

Exceeded expectations? What did you expect? For me, every season outside top 4 is huge disappointment. Huge.

 

[Chairman Steve]

I wouldn’t be downheartened if we finish 5th with just a League Cup.

Don’t forget we are seriously handicapped by having to sack Ronaldo and due to the ownership situation, not being able to afford an adequate replacement, meaning we’ve had to sign a striker on loan from a Championship team(!). We have another striker who’s been out for over 30 games this season so far and we have another striker who’s on suspension for allegedly being a scumbag.

Plus a potential new ownership with plenty of cash to spend and the Glazers finally gone is akin to winning the league in my opinion.

 

[George The Best]

The team is absolutely knackered and we have a paper thin squad. If we get just one injury or suspension we are in trouble. We desperately need to add some quality in key positions, but we also need to add depth to the squad. Having WW as our main ‘striker’ for half the season is just a joke. We also need to have better backups in midfield for Casemiro and Eriksen. A new striker and CM would improve us considerably, but that’s as much as we may be able to do in the summer, unfortunately

 

[bosnian_red]

The most worrying thing for me is he doesn’t seem to be able to motivate the team at the moment.

A top manager gets players running through walls for him.

I’m extremely worried at the moment. We desperately need a decisive win against Brentford to get back on the right track.

Not able to motivate the team? We have more comebacks than anyone this season. He literally has the best win percentage of any Manchester United manager, ever. That's just straight up nonsense to say he isn't able to motivate them.

 

[MadMike]

Fred in there instead of Bruno is mental, Bruno is somewhat press resistant, Fred isn‘t. We had plenty of defensive work rate in midfield with McT, Bruno, Sabitzer and Weghorst.

I think he lined us up correctly. Martial needs time to get up to speed and Weghorst offers more defensively.

We lost the ball too much and were second to almost every challenge. Damn right it was the player‘s performance that sank us.

We have lost every game away against the top 9 teams. But it’s always the players and only the players. Ok, no point discussing then

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

Last few games is worrying. Particular how we give away so many chances in the hard away games.

 

[CM]

For all the praise he's received, all that separates EtH from Eddie Howe, purely results wise, is a performance in a league cup final.

Context tells us EtH has achieved more, but we should also be careful before thinking he's the one. There's a lot of work to be done yet.

Given we've played 13 more games than Newcastle this season and had impressive runs in all of the cups, I don't think this is true at all.

Everything I saw of the Newcastle game made it look like ten Hag got it massively wrong but that isn't a representation of the season as a whole. If we finish below Newcastle in the league and finish the season badly in the cups, your argument might hold some weight, but it's reasonable to expect we'll play much better when our best player is available for selection again.

 

[giggs-beckham]

Great that you can laugh at yourself.

No its the response of 'tagine checks out huh uh' after literally every time someone disagrees with something I might post.
We're not all going to agree with each other eh on here? So yeah no I was laughing at you. Obviously.

 

[sullydnl]

Exceeded expectations? What did you expect? For me, every season outside top 4 is huge disappointment. Huge.

Poll from before the season started:

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/where-will-we-finish-this-season.471974/

61.6% predicting we'd finish outside the top four, 80.1% predicting we wouldn't finish better than fourth. And that poll was somewhat optimistic compared to the bookmakers odds, which had us finishing 6th rather than 5th.

Those were the expectations before the season started, so a top four finish and a cup win would certainly be exceeding them. If you expected more than that you were in a relatively small minority.

And that was before a ball was kicked. After the opening games expectations plummeted from there.

 

[Garethw]

Not able to motivate the team? We have more comebacks than anyone this season. He literally has the best win percentage of any Manchester United manager, ever. That's just straight up nonsense to say he isn't able to motivate them.

I said at the moment. The players haven’t looked bothered since the League Cup win. At the moment they lack motivation and a desire to bust a gut to get the job done.

Something is massively up at the moment. Our performances are absolutely dreadful.

 

[Garethw]

Last few games is worrying. Particular how we give away so many chances in the hard away games.

There just doesn’t seem to be any fight in the team at all. It’s massively worrying.

 

[NZT-One]

And being in the fa cup semi final. And being in the Europa League quarter finals. Very different being level on 3rd when you are succeeding in every cup competition vs someone who has done nothing but focus on the league essentially.

Howe has done a great job, but purely results wise, United is having an excellent season. Because cups obviously matter and cups obviously have an impact on league games.

That might be true but you listing our cup achievements this season is also a mere results-based view. The results have been very good under ETH, no question about it. Even with the little dip in recent weeks. Style of play is an issue. Long ball United is more or less back in full flow for at least a couple of month. Yes, we are more organized, yes, we have a better builtup. But chance creation is weak, nobody can deny it. I wouldn't even use that as a stick to beat ETH. He has to use the time he has on all the things on his radar. We certainly look more like a semi-recent football team with players who see and play football with each other every day than what we looked like under Rangnick, Ole and Mou.

Still, I think, some of the early praise was a little unjust. Let him do stuff before he gets praised for it. He is the manager, if he decides to play the same players over and over it is on him when they look burned out. And the replacements look shite when they usually get little chance to play themselves in any kind of form. And if the manager decides that he doesn't want to change the little "style of play" we were able to achieve until now EVEN WHEN two of the main cogs for this system aren't available, that is also on him.

As far as I read, ETH has a certain reputation of a bit of stubbornness. And he wasn't particularly good in rotating the squad. What we see now is confirming those things. He isn't the finished article, even Pep adjusted to the PL - I hope ETH does as well. I think, if we can stop the overly ethusiastic celebration for the most mundane things, there wouldn't be conflicts when we witness little flaws. He is allowed to have them. The trajectory of the team and the club is upwards. This partly due to him but he needs to stay on top of things. And he should question himself if sometimes he wants to be the smartest guy in the room by ignoring issues that re-occuring like Brunos inability to play in midfield without one Casemiro or two players behind him (just an example, another would be Dalot in my point of view, I'm sure there are more).

 

[Sarni]

Exceeded expectations? What did you expect? For me, every season outside top 4 is huge disappointment. Huge.

That’s baffling indeed and it’s not the first time I see it. Did we honestly expect to spend £250m and not make top 4 in a season where both Chelsea and Liverpool are non-factors? What were the expectations, avoid relegation or win 5 games?

 

[A-man]

Poll from before the season started:

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/where-will-we-finish-this-season.471974/

61.6% predicting we'd finish outside the top four, 80.1% predicting we wouldn't finish better than fourth. And that poll was somewhat optimistic compared to the bookmakers odds, which had us finishing 6th rather than 5th.

Those were the expectations before the season started, so a top four finish and a cup win would certainly be exceeding them. If you expected more than that you were in a relatively small minority.

And that was before a ball was kicked. After the opening games expectations plummeted from there.

That’s what you get from polls every year and I wouldn’t really let those polls define what is success or failure.
Outside top 4 is a huge disappointment. Can’t believe people having other opinions in that regards tbh.

 

[Sarni]

Poll from before the season started:

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/where-will-we-finish-this-season.471974/

61.6% predicting we'd finish outside the top four, 80.1% predicting we wouldn't finish better than fourth. And that poll was somewhat optimistic compared to the bookmakers odds, which had us finishing 6th rather than 5th.

Those were the expectations before the season started, so a top four finish and a cup win would certainly be exceeding them. If you expected more than that you were in a relatively small minority.

And that was before a ball was kicked. After the opening games expectations plummeted from there.

Yeah but that didn’t factor in massive meltdown at Chelsea and Liverpool who are both on track to finish substantially below their expected points. Basically two teams that were expected to finish comfortably over 70 points will now finish well below 70 and in Chelsea’s case below 60. This context is very much needed, we would probably not make top 4 if they both were at the level everyone expected them to be at.

Newcastle have overperformed but will probably still finish well below what you’d expect from Chelsea/Liverpool in a normal season.

 

[CM]

That’s baffling indeed and it’s not the first time I see it. Did we honestly expect to spend £250m and not make top 4 in a season where both Chelsea and Liverpool are non-factors? What were the expectations, avoid relegation or win 5 games?

I wouldn't say he's necessarily exceeded expectations in terms of league performance but most of that £250m was spent as a salvage job after the horrific start to the season and most fans would've bitten your hand off for a top 4 finish after those first two games. Expectations obviously change as the season has gone on, it would definitely be a failure to miss out on top 4 now having held a commanding position in 3rd for such a long time, but 4th place would be forgivable provided we continue to do well in the cups.

 

[A-man]

That’s baffling indeed and it’s not the first time I see it. Did we honestly expect to spend £250m and not make top 4 in a season where both Chelsea and Liverpool are non-factors? What were the expectations, avoid relegation or win 5 games?

Yes the standards for success have certainly dropped this season.

 

[bosnian_red]

I said at the moment. The players haven’t looked bothered since the League Cup win. At the moment they lack motivation and a desire to bust a gut to get the job done.

Something is massively up at the moment. Our performances are absolutely dreadful.

A cup win hangover, it's pretty normal. Mix that with fatigue, player absences, competing across multiple competitions... yeah it's fine. We had a little drop in form, that just happens over a season and we've had a really good run since the World Cup but a dip was due. Nothing is "up". It's a long season, everyone goes through dips. We had an extended period without one. We've won 7 of our last 10, drawing 1 and losing 2. The 10 before that, we won 6, drew 3 and lost 1. We won all 6 before that run which brings us to the world cup.

The only thing is the last few games, the off games have been in the league. Probably better they happen in the league when we have a massive gap to 5th. And guess what. Win our games in hand and we still have a 6 point gap to Spurs (Brighton could technically reduce that to 4). A cushion either way.

 

[bosnian_red]

Exceeded expectations? What did you expect? For me, every season outside top 4 is huge disappointment. Huge.

There are things that matter outside of the league. So far we are meeting expectations in the league, achieving targets, whatever you want to say. We are on pace for 3rd, we are favourites for 3rd, and every other top 4 competitor would rather be in our position in the top 4 fight, as our fixture list remaining is by far the easiest.

In the cups, Ten Hag has won 1 trophy, in the semi final for the FA Cup, and in the quarter finals for the Europa League. First season in the club after needing to shake up a lot of the club, probably finishing 3rd and winning 1, maybe 2 or even 3 trophies? Yes, that is literally exceeding expectations.

 

[NZT-One]

I wouldn't say he's necessarily exceeded expectations in terms of league performance but most of that £250m was spent as a salvage job after the horrific start to the season and most fans would've bitten your hand off for a top 4 finish after those first two games. Expectations obviously change as the season has gone on, it would definitely be a failure to miss out on top 4 now having held a commanding position in 3rd for such a long time, but 4th place would be forgivable provided we continue to do well in the cups.

Fully agree with you and the posters on that.

Pre-season expectations are good and well but expectations obviously are based on certain assumption and, in case those assumption turn out wrong (i.e. the assumption that Liverpool will play slightly closer to their 2021/2022 season), expectation should be adapted. Reminds me of the outburst when people said that it wasn't disappointing when Ole's United didn't make a serious push for the title in the season where we ended 2nd and a few posters said, that nobody should expect this... it is a bit bonkers. If the teams you expect to be better or as good as you fail, then of course your chances get better

edit: Plus: as if those posters wouldn't adjust their expectations downwards in case of injuries or whatnot the other way around.

 

[Crimson King]

I said at the moment. The players haven’t looked bothered since the League Cup win. At the moment they lack motivation and a desire to bust a gut to get the job done.

Something is massively up at the moment. Our performances are absolutely dreadful.

Yeah you've just pointed out what's up - a large portion of the squad don't have anywhere near the same drive and desire to win that the manager does. They beat Barcelona, won a trophy, and then after seeing any outside chance of winning the league finally evaporate with that drubbing at Liverpool, half of them called it a day.

They're not winners. Only a few of them deserve to be here. Do you think SAF would have signed someone like Sancho? Not a chance! Would have taken one look at him and seen that despite all the ability, there just isn't any fight in there.

EtH can see it too. It's not surprising that after the Newcastle game a few journos have started reporting that he wants to have a massive clear out, which includes Sancho. He's just as sick of the half hearted performances some of them put in as we are as fans.

Personally, I still blame Woodward. Had no talent for his role, no vision, no grasp of how to build the footballing side for the long term. It's left us with the complete mess of a squad, most of whom are massively overpaid compared to higher performing players at rival clubs.

 

[sullydnl]

Yeah but that didn’t factor in massive meltdown at Chelsea and Liverpool who are both on track to finish substantially below their expected points. Basically two teams that were expected to finish comfortably over 70 points will now finish well below 70 and in Chelsea’s case below 60. This context is very much needed, we would probably not make top 4 if they both were at the level everyone expected them to be at.

Newcastle have overperformed but will probably still finish well below what you’d expect from Chelsea/Liverpool in a normal season.

True.

But against that (and aside from the Newcastle overperformance you mention) it also wasn't the expectation that we'd be trying to clinch top four while still simultaneously competing in every other competition come April. Or that ETH would have to deal with Ronaldo spectacularly torching his United career mid-season, prompting us to turn to Burnley flop Wout Weghorst to replace him. And while it would be silly to say people didn't expect Martial to be injured, if they'd known he'd be out for this much of the season it would have also dampened expectations. Context abounds.

Edit: you can probably add Arsenal performing better than expected too. I would guess that quite a few of the people who thought we'd finish top four imagined they'd be one of the teams edged out.