Let’s hope he gets fully backed in the summer as this squad needs gutting.
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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Let’s hope he gets fully backed in the summer as this squad needs gutting.
That was a very confusing sub that he made yesterday. For one, we were only down by 1 and as much as 3 points would be great, they weren't needed. What we did need in that situation was at least a tie. So why take off your 2 best central defenders and replace them with our (arguably) 4th choice central defender? Especially considering Newcastle were constantly putting balls into our 6 yard box. The right move (as many would probably hate to hear it) would have been to bring on Maguire for Martinez, but keep Varane on the field. Especially considering he also took off McTominay. We ended up having a very small line up. Martial for Wout was a no brainer. It was like playing with 10 men before Martial came on, and the quality Martial brought to the hold up play was plain to see. I hope he can stay healthy now. The rest of the subs were just weird. If we tied we still would have been 3 points up. So don't panic and just make subtle changes. going to a 3-5-2 with Lindelof, Shaw and Dalot as the back 3 was suicide. Especially with a keeper who is afraid to leave his goal line. These are the subs I would have made:
Martial on for Wout
Maguire on for Martinez
Fred on for McTominay (would have actually started Fred over McT)
I thought Antony was having a decent game and wouldn't have taken him off. If we were still down a goal going into the 80th minute then I would have put on Sancho or Pillestri for Sabitzer and moved Rashford up front and dropped Bruno into the #8 and played a 4-4-2 for the rest of the match...
Martial on for Wout
Maguire on for Martinez
Fred on for McTominay (would have actually started Fred over McT)
I thought Antony was having a decent game and wouldn't have taken him off. If we were still down a goal going into the 80th minute then I would have put on Sancho or Pillestri for Sabitzer and moved Rashford up front and dropped Bruno into the #8 and played a 4-4-2 for the rest of the match...
This still isn't EtH's team yet, not by a long shot, and it might be worth remembering that, aside from the two emergency loan signings, five of the players starting against Newcastle (and quite a fair few on the bench) have been here for over 5 years in both Jose and Ole teams that have gone from seasons finishes of 6th, to 3rd, to 2nd, to 6th. They have a mixed history of semi-decent consistency followed by catastrophic falls. The squad still needs some surgery.
I really don't think we will miss out on champions league football next season but if that did happen i've seen enough encouraging signs that we have an excellent coach and i'd bet most fans would be willing to give him more time.
I really don't think we will miss out on champions league football next season but if that did happen i've seen enough encouraging signs that we have an excellent coach and i'd bet most fans would be willing to give him more time.
Judging from the comments here, safe to say that ETH's honeymoon period is over. His honeymoon lasted longer than Ole's.
Just pray that he is the real deal rather than another Ole. As many have said, he has been lucky this year Chelsea and Liverpool somehow can't get their shit together. Next year will be much more competitive with City, Arsenal, Newcastle, Spurs, Chelsea, Liverpool and Man Utd fighting for Top 4.
Next season we really need 2 ST and 2 MF as minimum. WW, Martial, McT, Sabizter, Fred are not players to challenge the Big 7 next year.
Just pray that he is the real deal rather than another Ole. As many have said, he has been lucky this year Chelsea and Liverpool somehow can't get their shit together. Next year will be much more competitive with City, Arsenal, Newcastle, Spurs, Chelsea, Liverpool and Man Utd fighting for Top 4.
Next season we really need 2 ST and 2 MF as minimum. WW, Martial, McT, Sabizter, Fred are not players to challenge the Big 7 next year.
I wrote off this season before it even started considering last season and the Ronaldo affair.
For me results don't matter as long as we can make progress. So far I'm absolutely happy with ETH. Surely he made some mistakes here and there, he's new to the league and human after all. But overall his performance has been top imo. The most important thing is he has fixed our culture, handled the dressing room really well and implemented a progressive modern football. It's been ages since SAF we would dominate and win against the smaller clubs with ease on a regular basis. And he won a cup too it's our first silveware like in 6,7 years.
I have no doubt he'd win the league next season if we can buy a top midfielder and a top #9 this summer.
we also hadn't made all our signings by then i imagine. After spending 250m it was top 4 or bust for me
We just have too many gaps in our first XI right now. We're missing our entire central midfield, and a striker. That's the spine of a team. We can't get the forwards involved because one is championship-level and no one can pass to the other 3.
Get Eriksen, Casemiro and Martial back and we're a totally different prospect.
Get Eriksen, Casemiro and Martial back and we're a totally different prospect.
Considering our squad is mostly average, just wish ETH would tinker with his formation. Like play mctom-fred-sabitzer as midfield and rash-bruno-antony as front three with Bruno as false 9.
Agree that he should go with a three in midfield. Even though that's the weakest section of players, it's way to open with a two.
Most certainly should yet I suppose you'll always get some on here and twitter that will chose to ignore it.
Not even now only, but it should 3 man midfield going forward with the players available.
At all times, we need 3 competent midfielders on the pitch, and Bruno is not a midfielder.
This will offer better control even if our passing will still be garbage.
You can futz with the line up all you want, but we have no one currently who can play the 6 position properly except Casemiro.
We were playing with a makeshift midfield. Couple that with a lack of effort and it could have been 5-0.
Your solution is to play Fred and McTominay in midfield? I think we have tried that a few times.
In hindsight McTominay should have played deeper instead of Bruno. That MIGHT have been better.
And let me ask you, do you think the team effort was good enough? Did you see enough passion and desire on the field?
It starts with that, and only then does a line up or formation make a difference.
The loss against Sheffield Wednesday was only 1 of 5 Newcastle have had this season - the other four being twice against Liverpool, once against City away and the last against us in the final. In the league, they've got a +18 GD on us. They have a wage bill that's one third of ours, spent 80m lesser than us, and even after that their top two signings, Isak and Gordon, have a combined 900 minutes, 6 goals and 0 assists between them - basically money with no returns so far. They did not beat Barca in the EL, sure, but they didn't lose 7-0 at Anfield, 6-3 at the Etihad or 4-0 at Brentford, either. There are ways to show EtH is making progress without trying to belittle Eddie Howe's achievements this season.
My post was not solely to downplay EtH's achievements, it also reflects on the quality of the squad itself and how we are extremely dependent on the likes of Casemiro and Rashford and drop points when they both are absent/have off games. While, I do believe EtH is the best we've had since SAF, I'm cautious about whether he's better than his counterparts at the top clubs we compete with for silverware without knowing if we'll upgrade the squad wisely. A comparison with Eddie Howe's Newcastle was made only to illustrate that we're still closer to Newcastle than we are to City, and that it's not as rosy as some are trying to paint it, and that we have very long way to go.
You can't look at the positives like Barca and ignore the negatives like how poor we've been of late and the hammerings we've received this season - that would be cherrypicking.
Agreed - we were exceptional in some games this season, Barca tie being one of them. But Eddie Howe didn't get thrashed by City and Liverpool, either.
I agree that simply relegating our Europa + FA Cup run (and all the games involved) to 'context' is perhaps misrepresentative. But the point wasn't to downplay EtH's progress, it's to highlight that even after that, we're closer to Newcastle's season than City's, and that we've got a long long way to go before we are convinced he's the man to compete for the top silverware - especially since our squad is heavily reliant on performances of two-three players at the moment.
Peps first season at City, where he took over in a MUCH weaker league, with a MUCH stronger squad:
- 3rd in the league
- Semi final fa cup
- Round 4 of league cup
- Round of 16 for Champions League
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There is difference between high pressing and pressing. High pressing is about winning possession of the ball near or inside the final/attacking third to score a goal on a fast attack. The definition of ''high'' is referring to winning it near the opposition penalty box. If a team was able to win the ball from opposition defender, you don't retain the possession, you expose it by trying to score a goal on a fast attack. A pressing without the word of ''high'' is just pressing to regain possession, it's different to high pressing. The tiki taka of Barcelona back then did less high pressing, there is a reason why some people argued before Xavi came that Barca must evolve from their tiki taka and fuse it to the modern day of high pressing.
After 27 matches 22/23 Season with WC winning defenders
W 15, D 5, L 7, GF 41, GA 37, GD 4, PTS 50
After 27 matches 21/22 Season under Ragnick with Maguire/Varane/Lindelof/Jones/Bailly, McFred
W 13, D 8, L6, GF44, GA34, GD10, PTS 47
Scored less, conceded more and just 3 pts ahead at the same stage.
W 15, D 5, L 7, GF 41, GA 37, GD 4, PTS 50
After 27 matches 21/22 Season under Ragnick with Maguire/Varane/Lindelof/Jones/Bailly, McFred
W 13, D 8, L6, GF44, GA34, GD10, PTS 47
Scored less, conceded more and just 3 pts ahead at the same stage.
It's pretty shocking if you put it this way. But to be fair he won us Carabao Cup and going into last stages of FA and Europe Cup. He is definitely doing much better than Ole and Rangnick. He is competing all out on all fronts. And it's only his first season.
He was also not being helped by our non existent scouting department and football structure. He was forced to mainly sign from Ajax, Dutch League and a Real Madrid legend.
Next year with proper investment (pray the bastards Glazers will be gone) he should be doing much better.
Next year we have Big 7 and not Big 4 anymore.
Hmm, Rangnick EPL record according to the Premier League's website, is played 24, won 10 games in the league and not 13 as you claim, drew seven, and lost seven, 33 scored and 33 against, so please if you are going to use stats to attack ETH at least get them right.
https://www.premierleague.com/managers/48399/Ralf-Rangnick/overview
Would you take the likes of Thuram/Dembele as a backup striker provided we got a Kane/Osimhen as starter.
Presume you are talking about 2 midfielders being made up of a backup for Casa and a number 8 to partner him.
Just praying that Erik doesn't get forced into second best players again due to the ownership farce still not sorted out.
Erik needs more than that to win league
It looks aweful but the data you listed lack of context.
This season in the cup competitions, as compared to last season, we played 5 more league cup games, 3 more FA cup games, 2 more European games (Barca). In total, it’s 10 more games. And those 10 more games result in us playing two games every week. We started to lose players to injuries and suspensions, ie, our squad depth was depleted. The drop in performance level started just before the winning of league cup. It’s really a squad depth issue so that we can’t handle such a dense game schedule.
3 | Chelsea FC | 27 | 14 | 9 | 4 | 52:23 | 29 | 51 |
4 | Arsenal FC | 27 | 15 | 3 | 9 | 42:34 | 8 | 48 |
5 | Tottenham Hotspur | 27 | 15 | 3 | 9 | 40:32 | 8 | 48 |
6 | Manchester United | 27 | 13 | 8 | 6 | 44:34 | 10 | 47 |
7 | West Ham United | 27 | 13 | 6 | 8 | 46:34 | 12 | 45 |
Context: After this we still had many tough opponents ahead: Man City, Tottenham, Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, Everton, Leicester. We know how it turned out. Already out of all other competitions. With the easy run of opponent before week game 28, we could have taken over Chelsea for third place last season at this point, but we didn't make the most of the fixture list.
Final table reads
3 | Chelsea FC | 38 | 21 | 11 | 6 | 76:33 | 43 | 74 |
4 | Tottenham Hotspur | 38 | 22 | 5 | 11 | 69:40 | 29 | 71 |
5 | Arsenal FC | 38 | 22 | 3 | 13 | 61:48 | 13 | 69 |
6 | Manchester United | 38 | 16 | 10 | 12 | 57:57 | 0 | 58 |
7 | West Ham United | 38 | 16 | 8 | 14 | 60:51 | 9 | 56 |
So 11 points in the next 11 games. -10 GD for this 11 game run after conceding extra 23 goals.
Back to ETH, I had maintained my view that we're not entirely on different level from previous regime several time in different threads. The "we're back" bridgade jumped the wagon. We're pretty much still in rebuild foundation phase. It's a good foundation to build on success/trophy. It's to be seen we can build on the initial smaller success and make other step next.
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I still think we will finish top 4 but not convincingly like we all thought in early March. I think we will limp to top 4. Our next 2 games are very important. Anything less than 6 points would be concerning.
Let us wait till end of the season before judging whether good or bad.
Let us wait till end of the season before judging whether good or bad.
People loosing belief now should watch again our games against Barca. They showed quite a lot of what we are heading to. Remember that even in Fergie era, we could rarely play them toe-to-toe, across their different era with Rivaldo, Ronaldino, and Messi.
That's what 10 years of disaster would do to anyone. We've had too many false dawns that we suffer from a reverse "Boy cry wolf" syndrome now.
It’s just losing Casemiro & Eriksen whilst arguably also not having a striker.
It’s just too much shit instead of quality.
It’s just too much shit instead of quality.
Can you actually afford to do so? I am sure you will come back now and again to tell us how ETH is the one to blame and to "I don't want to defend our player BUT"
I keep saying how every single manager will lose the PR war again our players, as they are experts on it and have the whole media behind them, and this guy is a prime example.
Let's just sack ETH, and rehire Ole so we can win some occasional big games, win no title or cup, and our media will tell us everything is fine and our players are actually great. Let's also give them 500k per week just in case.
Wont happen. Every year people say this, it’s never the case. Not all of those top teams will be firing on all cylinders. At least one or more won’t be at their best.
The disparity between our home form and away from is alarming. We have been terrible away from home so far this season even in the games we have won we haven't been great.
And at home in all honesty although our results are great our performances on the most part have been patchy. Winning moments and defending deep well.
Far from finished article, much work to do. Interesting though that in a previous regime all the problems we are seeing was blamed on the coaching.... Now of course it's the players.
And at home in all honesty although our results are great our performances on the most part have been patchy. Winning moments and defending deep well.
Far from finished article, much work to do. Interesting though that in a previous regime all the problems we are seeing was blamed on the coaching.... Now of course it's the players.
If we got back the Martial from three years ago, maybe, but the current version is totally shot. I'll be amazed if he manages 60 minutes in any game for the rest of the season.
Making progress is my number one also, however my absolute lowest level of that is at least top-4. Winning the cup was nice and a good achievement, but not a measure of progress considering the teams we faced.
Over the last years, we have finished 2nd in the league twice, played two EL finals and won one, plus won the League cup once. I want a step up from that result wise. I am more than willing to give him time, since I finally see a coach with a plan, and a plan I like, but I won’t call it success until we are established as top-4 and seriously fight for the PL title.
Two years ago we went to EL final and finished 2nd in the league, basically playing every match with the players who now sit on the bench. We have a squad good enough for a top position.
If we finished 3-4 it’s good although not a huge process but it’s ok to take small steps. It’s good that we can achieve well in cups, that experience is needed later when we want to fight for the CL. But as written above, I personally want a step up from the last years. Hopefully we will see that but I can’t say we have so far.
Just out of interest, how would you define the very clear patterns in Ten Hag’s setup at United? I agree that he doesn’t have the ideal squad for him, but from what he’s said he would like to keep players like De Gea, so I have less sympathy at that point.
Well yeah, probably because they had Rivaldo, Ronaldin(h)o, Messi. I don't think our "toe-to-toe" performance against a mediocre Barca is quite making your point.
I want to see performances that ETH's Ajax put up in that CL run to the semis. Against truly big names. And I'm happy to give him time.
I never expected a trophy by April and to still be in the semi and quarter final of two others along with top 4. Of course every season outside of the top 4 is a disappointment but we don’t always make it. Chelsea and liverpool are having freak seasons but if they weren’t what’s to say we’d be there? Next season if they sort out their issues, tottenham get a good manager and Newcastle spend big, you’ve then got city, arsenal, liverpool, Chelsea, tottenham, Newcastle and us all wanting a top 4 spot. Top 4 isn’t a given at all. Easily the toughest league in the world when you look at it.
so yes, this season so far, isn’t bad at all for his first go at it, with the squad he has.
I think he might have used a lot of the emotional goodwill tbh. We've been thumped so many times now, and his way of getting a reaction has always been the same (questioning their desire etc), that it must get tiring. The players have responded, but even they realise that everytime they're away from home against a top team they're thoroughly outclassed and that's not just due to desire and attitude.
The way some people are talking is like top 4 is gone. We're still in a position where we'd pretty much have to throw it away to not finish top 4 from here. 2 games in hand on Tottenham, have already played all of the top 3 + Liverpool twice. Yes, we're not playing well atm, but it was only about a month ago Newcastle couldn't buy a win, now people are talking like it's a given they finish top 4. It won't take much for us to get back on track and look in a much better position.
On the pitch it looks a bit like the players have accepted that they’re playing too many games to maintain a decent standard of football or that they can’t win without Casemiro.
It’s Erik’s job to get them to snap the feck out of that mode of thinking.
He needs to be mindful as well of maintaining his aura given how mentally weak this group is. He needs to be seen as the calm, measured tactician for them to believe. He doesn’t need to be infallible but persisting with Wout or doing mad shit like subbing both Varane and Martinez at once will quickly erode the faith in his leadership that our season so far has generated:
It’s Erik’s job to get them to snap the feck out of that mode of thinking.
He needs to be mindful as well of maintaining his aura given how mentally weak this group is. He needs to be seen as the calm, measured tactician for them to believe. He doesn’t need to be infallible but persisting with Wout or doing mad shit like subbing both Varane and Martinez at once will quickly erode the faith in his leadership that our season so far has generated:
Some of the comments in this thread man!
The team, on the whole over the season have been much better on the eye, with obvious patches where standards and performances have slipped (and some shocking results too admittedly). But on the main, it's been so so much better. You can see that ETH has a plan, even when it doesn't always work, and you can tell he's no nonsense and will have no issue shipping anyone out who he doesn't think fits his system or mentality.
A few years ago, Roy Keane said leopards don't change their spots when it comes to performances getting managers sacked, and it's clear there are still characters in the squad who fall into that camp. I expect a few departures and signings again in the summer, but as it's not football manager, mass clear-outs, and signing a whole new squad of players doesn't happen in one season, so as always, patience is important.
- Carabao Cup win - First silverware in six years
- FA Cup Semi Final still to play
- Europa League Quarter Final still to play
- 5th in the league, level on points with 3rd and 4th, with two games in hand over 4th
The team, on the whole over the season have been much better on the eye, with obvious patches where standards and performances have slipped (and some shocking results too admittedly). But on the main, it's been so so much better. You can see that ETH has a plan, even when it doesn't always work, and you can tell he's no nonsense and will have no issue shipping anyone out who he doesn't think fits his system or mentality.
A few years ago, Roy Keane said leopards don't change their spots when it comes to performances getting managers sacked, and it's clear there are still characters in the squad who fall into that camp. I expect a few departures and signings again in the summer, but as it's not football manager, mass clear-outs, and signing a whole new squad of players doesn't happen in one season, so as always, patience is important.
The ownership situation isn't the reason we didn't properly replace Ronaldo. We are dangerously close to breaking FFP rules.
Can you actually afford to do so? I am sure you will come back now and again to tell us how ETH is the one to blame and to "I don't want to defend our player BUT"
I keep saying how every single manager will lose the PR war again our players, as they are experts on it and have the whole media behind them, and this guy is a prime example.
Let's just sack ETH, and rehire Ole so we can win some occasional big games, win no title or cup, and our media will tell us everything is fine and our players are actually great. Let's also give them 500k per week just in case.
What an atrocious post, this is. I never said sack ETH. And I was never a fan of Ole as manager. I'm simply criticising him because I want him to do better for the sake of the team and I have specific criticisms of his tactics and team selection. Playing 4-2-3-1 with Weghorst upfront is clearly not leading to good results away from home and we've been bleeding points in the league for quite a while now.
It's also rather bizarre behaviour attributing everything good that happens to the manager and everything bad that happens to the players. Have a word with yourself, if you can.
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