Are you the same DN from years ago?
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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Onana - The only question marks around him should be about his shot-stopping, but you know what, I wouldn't even say there are question marks about it. He's average at that, and will likely never even be close to world class. However, at everything else he's good-to-great IMO. Commanding the box and his defenders, coming out for crosses, passing, press-resistance. Especially at the latter two, you'll struggle to find anyone better than him across world football, let alone someone who would be attainable for us. If we want to become a team that cedes possession, concedes chances every game, doesn't want to control their matches, and heavily rely on the shot-stopping capabilities of their keeper, then by all means we can ditch Onana and bring in someone who's inferior at everything to him but is a great shot-stopper. However, if we want to play the modern way like most top teams do these days, then the strengths of Onana I listed above have much more importance than how good he is at saving the ball. In fact, those things he brings to the table are absolutely essential if we want to play out from the back and be able to play out of high presses. Just watch back his performance at Anfield in December as a great example of how valuable he is. It's also why City employ Ederson despite him not being one of the best shot-stoppers around, and the same goes for Arsenal with Raya and Ramsdale. If we implement a controlling, possession-based style with the help of Onana in goal, we will also concede much fewer chances, which will obviously reduce the importance of his shot-stopping abilities.
Mazraoui & de Ligt - I haven't declared them successes, in fact I think both signings involve a fair amount of risk, but at the same time, I believe that for the fees quoted, both of them are worth the gamble. What I meant by them being "quality players" is based on what they showed at Ajax, Juventus, and Bayern Munich over the past 6 seasons. Them not considered good enough by Bayern is also just simply not true, sorry.
Antony - I think he is objectively the worst signing in our history, simply because we paid £81m for a player whose real market value is around £25m. However, I don't think the blame can lie solely with ten Hag on this, as the club was working with a relatively small transfer budget of around £120m in the summer of 2022, up until the opening two defeats in the Premier League vs Brighton and Brentford, which led to the Glazers getting involved in our transfer dealings, and assigning more funds to be spent on incomings out of panic, which led to the arrivals of Casemiro and Antony for big money. This info all comes from the Athletic, so I think we can treat them as facts. If the manager, Murtough, Arnold, scouting department, etc. so everyone involved in our recruitment knew that we could, and will spend close to £250m in the end that summer instead of the original ~£120m budget, it would've likely been a totally different summer with different incomings. So don't get me wrong, ten Hag could've stopped the signing, but everyone was desperate, and in the end I think most of the fault lies with the Glazers. They initially wanted to cheap out, then got involved out of panic after two bad results, and decided to pay more than three times the real market value for Antony, and sign a 30 year old midfielder for 60 million in Casemiro.
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While I agree with you, the expectation was lower and the spend was lower back then. United are still spending more than any other club right now and doing it badly.
A lot of the current negativity is based around some very valid complaints that are yet to be addressed, and the frustration reaches fever pitch when the reply is along the lines of “the manager needs an entire new squad before he can be judged”.
Personally, I feel that even if we do go and sign Ugarte and De Ligt, we’re still looking at a repeat of last season. Too much is still the same, but I remain hopeful something clicks in the first 5 games.
With the money spent and looking to spend this Summer along with his time here at United. Bare minimum expectation is Top 4 with a decent style of play. I don't expect us to challenge for the title this season, but Manchester United should not be content with being a Cup Club. We should be pushing for titles and this is his 3rd year here at United after spending a staggering amount of money and having the entire backing of the club behind him. We need to see a big jump in quality in the League.
My expectation is based on reality however and from what i've seen under Ten Hag that's a pipe dream. I'd love him to prove me wrong, I want to be positive about the club and excited to watch us play every week. I really miss that feeling.
I'm still optimistic that we'll challenge for fourth place but my confidence that we'll get there is not high. We're still in pre-season but what we've seen so far is a repeat of last season.
Thanks for the reply, my question however was a bit more specific in the scenarios.
1) What is the bare minimum you would expect based on the signings so far for Ten Hag and/or a competent manager i.e. we didn't sign anyone else before the window closed? e.g. you would expect Ten Hag to get top 4 if we signed no more players and if it was a new manager then top 6.
2) What would be the bare minimum if we signed De Ligt, Ugarte and Mazaroui for Ten Hag or a competent manager? e.g. as above would that change to challenge for a title for Ten hag and if it was a new manager then top 4.
Serious question, what’s the optimism based on? Not watching us for 3 months?
I don’t mean literally every single player. Just a consistent XI with most of first choice players available. Both Yoro and Hojlund are crucial because they don’t have adequate replacements.
I have been mostly serious in this thread, with minor exceptions, since we committed to EtH. I have to admit I do not like that decision and think it was the wrong one but since we are going with him for the foreseeable future, I am going to support him because I support the club.
People massively overrate how hard it is to get top 4. It's not very hard at all. Every season we've missed out, it's been because we've massively fecked up and thrown it away. Like literal disasters that should've had the managers sacked in October.
70 points get you top 4 more often than not. If you got 70 points and you missed out, you've been unlucky. That has never happened in the seasons that we've missed out on top 4. We've never had a team bad enough that should be getting less than 65 points - the seasons we have is because the managers have massively shat the bed.
Winning the title is hard, getting top 4 is pretty easy - you have such a massive margin for error.
70 points get you top 4 more often than not. If you got 70 points and you missed out, you've been unlucky. That has never happened in the seasons that we've missed out on top 4. We've never had a team bad enough that should be getting less than 65 points - the seasons we have is because the managers have massively shat the bed.
Winning the title is hard, getting top 4 is pretty easy - you have such a massive margin for error.
We are going to sign more players so point 1 is redundant.
Already answered 2, top 4 bare minimum with a much improved style of play and more consistency. Cup runs are irrelevant, we have more ambition as a club than a simple cup.
A new Manager should be given the same time and patience that Ten Hag has been awarded, so again irrelevant.
Onana - in his first season, he was a net negative. Was the biggest reason we got turfed out of the Champions League with our worst ever group stage performance. Yes, good with the ball at his feet, but I actually think his medium to long range distribution is quite average. We have seen him hit long passes out of play or over the heads of our players time and again. It doesn't help him that his back 4 and midfield are not comfortable in playing out of the back, but that is a Ten Hag mistake - he should have first signed players who could play out of the back, then the goalkeeper. Especially if the keeper would concede a bunch of goals in the meantime, because, as you say, he is an "average" shot stopper. And i don't think he commands the box. We have seen him give away penalties with badly timed punches.
As i say, he is a net negative to the side and there were other keepers that were available that would have been better - Diogo Costa is the first that comes to mind.
Antony - Ten Hag has to wear that one. He vouched for a player at the price of £81m. Yes, he is not incharge of the transfer value, but he must understand that £81m is double, if not triple what Antony was worth. Plus, you make out like that had a day to find someone - we lost to Brentford two and a half weeks before the transfer deadline day. There will have been scouting reports on numerous right sided players - there was on Antony done prior to Ten Hags appointment.
I think he disregarded that because he felt it was safer to go with someone he knew. The problem is, Ten Hag didn't understand the gap in quality between the Dutch League and the Premier League at that point. Antony may have been able to skip past Eredivisie left backs, but cant do it against Premier league opponents.
Cool. So if we get in De Ligt, Ugarte and Mazaroui then he is expected to get top 4 as a minimum regardless of cup runs and if we don't further improve the squad in those positions then top 6 is acceptable as a bare minimum. With the caveats that we should show more style and consistency relative to the squad. I'm fine with that expectation.
For the record I think with a fit squad or a squad deep enough to deal with injuries that I'd expect Ten Hag to make top 4. If we do bring in those 3 signings then I'd feel comfortable that the squad can achieve top 4 under him comfortably. The only issue I see is whether we get Ugarte/extra midfielder which might dampen my expectations.
This is about where I am at. A competent manager with the current squad should be competing for top 4 and getting 70 or so points, at least. If we do that, play good football generally, and don’t make top 4 then that’s unfortunate.
The potential signings move the dial a bit further so that missing out on top 4 in any circumstances would be disappointing more than unfortunate.
That's a great and very fair question. It's based on what I believe, not what I know. This is what I believe:
Onana will improve from his horror form from last season. He was actually much better in the second half of the season than his horrifying form of the first half.
Martinez will not be out for the season. This is admittedly a hope, a belief, but this is what I hope and actually believe.
Shaw will only miss half the season, not the whole season.
Dalot will continue to improve, and that we will not see AWB in PL play, at least not after August 31.
We will address the CDM hole and will have at worst Casemiro as a squad man.
Mainoo will continue to grow as a massive force for us in midfield, hopefully for most of the 38 PL games.
Bruno will be Bruno, no better but no worse.
Rashford will return to a form level somewhere between last season and the season before that.
Hojlund will grow from boy to man.
Amad will be a significant upgrade on Antony, who shits his pants every chance possible.
Garnacho will continue to improve.
To be fair, a reasonable reply is that my hopes and beliefs are unrealistic. Perhaps, but this what I hope and believe.
We still have questions to answer, such as who will partner with Martinez on the back line. I believe it will be De Ligt, but we shall see about that. If it's Maguire, we have a problem. If Shaw goes down for 6-8 months we have a problem at LB. If we don't bring in a CDM Casemiro is a major worry.
A lot could wrong, but a lot could go right.
When people say “optimistic to this season” I find it hard to know what is being overly optimistic or pessimistic.
I mean “top 4” just doesn’t excite me. I get why people have 4th or higher as a target and at end of season it obviously matters but at beginning of season it feels so wengeresque. Money has taken over priority of actually winning trophies , again I get it’s just part of things now, but it seems wrong.
Would I swap 4th spot last season for our fa cup win? No, not a chance, the satisfaction of that final win was one of the best moments since Ferguson won the league. And yet, even now, the main sentiment will be that top 4 is even more important then having great cup runs, just so we can quality for the CL next season and get more money.
I think the sports been totally warped. If you aren’t in the pot for league, Fans have been groomed to focus on CL above all else. What has having loads of money done for United and Chelsea the last few years ?
I get we need to be in CL for multiple reasons , but this is now a journey back to the top. I have this argument with friends who make points about top 4 benefits as if I don’t understand them. I do. I just think that it’s a bit too much of an obsession to the point of unhealthy “top 4 cup” targets.
If we went on a great FA cup run , beating all the top teams and city in the final again in as satisfying manner (where we hadn’t a chance in most eyes), I’d take that every year over “yay, 4th, we are in CL next year”.
This season I’d rather really push and win the Europa , then focus on 4th. There really shouldn’t be any reason why we can’t gun for both, but the thought of getting 4th, right now, does absolutely nothing for me.
Not directed at me but I'll also chip in:
- Ten Hag has shown when he has most of his players available he can get us into the top 4 and win cups. That's with a squad that in the previous 2 seasons clearly haven't been up to it. If we do get in De Ligt, Mazraoui and a CM, along with a normalised injury rate I think the squad is much better equipped to play his style of football in multiple competitions. We still have deficiencies in some areas but for the first time we would have bench options that suit the style.
- Ten Hag has shown he can beat top teams when it counts, albeit when he has his better players available. I also think the 1st Arsenal match last season, even though a loss, was probably the most aggressive/front foot we've played against a top team in ages (after multiple seasons of sit back and counter attack) and the FA cup final even though City dominated possesion again we looked pretty good so to me its clear when he has the right type of players the football improves.
- The likes of Mainoo, Garnacho, Amad, Yoro all excite me and add to that Zirkzee, De Ligt, Mazraoui who I think compliment Ten Hags style, it excites me for the season.
I feel fairly comfortable and confident in at least getting top 4 and seeing better football (provided we do get in De Ligt, Mazraoui and a challenger for Casemiro's position). If we get those players in and manage to keep players fit/have a more normal injury rate I think we might be a problem for teams this season and that excites me.
A great FA Cup cup run is hard to predict. We may draw a top club in January or we may draw lesser clubs all the way through.
The PL is the real test of a club’s strength. As for why top four is a goal, it’s only a goal now since we have no shot this season at challenging for the PL trophy. The work INEOS has to do will take years to come to fruition. Top four is an interim goal and once we get that we can hopefully challenge for the PL the following season.
Well besides the money you can try to win the Champions League. Chelsea, Liverpool, and Spurs all played CL finals after qualifying in the previous season in 3rd/4th without mounting a title challenge, with Chelsea and Liverpool both winning it.
No more excuses this season for ETH, in regards to style of play. He’s now got the the right coaches around him. Slots gone straight into Liverpool and will probably have a clear playing style from the start.
Y
Yea winning the Europa League should be our top target this season, that way we get both UCL next season and a Trophy to boost.
I've never had an issue with our style of play under Ten Hag and when it clicks, you can see how we want to play our football.
My only fear is the feel-good factor dying out after 6,7 games of bad results as we're starting the season with injuries in key positions again. Imagine the pressure Erik would be under if that happened.
My only fear is the feel-good factor dying out after 6,7 games of bad results as we're starting the season with injuries in key positions again. Imagine the pressure Erik would be under if that happened.
How do we want to play our football? This is a genuine question, as I'm not sure.
I think Slot will be a massive dissapointment, tbh.
Ye I do too as in result wise but I still think he’ll have a clear identity.
We have seen the quick transitions from time to time. Like the 2nd goal against Man City in the final, and that lovely attack against Arsenal. We’re just not consistent in it.
Maybe he will. But it's a lot easier to create an identity with a group of players that have played a specific style for a number of years together, than the rag-tag mismatch of shite that ETH inherited.
In saying that, what's dissapointed me most about ETH is that he hasn't been able to recreate his style of football from his Ajax days. One of the most exciting things about his appointment was the thoughts of us playing modern, progressive football. Unfortunately, things haven't worked out that way.
If we start some back 4 including Maguire, Lindelof, Evans and AWB more than 10 times this season, it'll be a bad one. If we don't, I think it will be decent.
Our attack simply will be better this year, with more options. Whether that's Rashford coming back, Amad being integrated or Garnacho and Hojland developping, it will improve.
Second biggest worry is Casemiro, but the club are clearly trying to get rid and get in some legs, and even if they fail, having Mount's energy and the youngsters having had one more year should make us a bit better.
I also feel like we're just due some luck. Between injuries, ridiculous refereeing decisions and certain bounces it just felt like everything conspired last season to go against us. Surely that'll get some balancing.
Our attack simply will be better this year, with more options. Whether that's Rashford coming back, Amad being integrated or Garnacho and Hojland developping, it will improve.
Second biggest worry is Casemiro, but the club are clearly trying to get rid and get in some legs, and even if they fail, having Mount's energy and the youngsters having had one more year should make us a bit better.
I also feel like we're just due some luck. Between injuries, ridiculous refereeing decisions and certain bounces it just felt like everything conspired last season to go against us. Surely that'll get some balancing.
If you ignore that we scored so few, these are some of the best goals we scored as a team in a single season and give you an idea about how we want to play our football.
As Erik Ten Hag mentioned, transitional football is the style he wants to play. We just don't have the players for it which is also partly his fault, but I disagree that we don't have a style of play. You see a couple of slick transitions every game but most of those moves are wasted before or on the final pass.
Thanks. Yes, I tend to feel a lack of pace in defence is the biggest thing holding us back. It seems like we want to squeeze high up the pitch, but our centre backs have been terrified of doing this and allowing people running behind. This means the defence drops deeper than it should, which then leads to the big gap in the middle between attack and defence, which is why we get overrun in that area.
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To be fair.. Slot will have it easier as he inherited a proper non toxid squad with few changes, existing hierarchy who performed well last season.. It will be mostly tuning for him on a system which is already in place..
Ten Hag had an entirely different context when he started..
Not saying Slot will have it easy, defintely not, there are different difficulties in succeeding a longterm successful manager, but in regards to style of play Slot has much to build upon..
The club is deliberately hanging him out to dry, he should do a Jose Mourinho and demand the club sign the quality needed in defense.
Ten hag is in his third season. At any other proper big club, if he had no blueprint for playing or even winning, he will be sent packing. He is paid to coach players to actually string passes together yet they look lost at times. If the team struggles early, he should be sacked. Simple as that
Im comparing Slot now to Ten Hag when he started..
Looking at the squad and how ETH managed the team last season it’s hard to see him lasting until Christmas.
One of the reasons I think he should have gone is this is not a quick fix and you can’t really start from scratch in your third season. Lose the first game of the season or even scrape a result and play really poorly like Wolves last season and he’s instantly under huge pressure.
One of the reasons I think he should have gone is this is not a quick fix and you can’t really start from scratch in your third season. Lose the first game of the season or even scrape a result and play really poorly like Wolves last season and he’s instantly under huge pressure.
Obviously won't admit it in public but he will so frustrated not to have De Ligt & Mazraoui sorted, also very little movement in weeks on DM. I fear we are starting with the season with no more signings.
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Didn't sound convincing when talking about the lack of transfer activity. Not sure who he'd blame more privately - the overpaid deadwood, his bosses, or his own poor transfers..
It's hard to know what to expect from this season without at least two defenders and a midfielder coming in. You know the style of play he wants to implement, the fast transitions, high pressing etc. but the squad still doesn't look good enough to implement it.
Amad and Mount hopefully being available and staying consistently fit will help, Rashford can't be as awful as last season, and the attack options look decent. It's just the defensive midfield and defensive options that look very concerning.
Amad and Mount hopefully being available and staying consistently fit will help, Rashford can't be as awful as last season, and the attack options look decent. It's just the defensive midfield and defensive options that look very concerning.
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