Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
- Thread starter sewey89
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Disagree. You're the one that seems to be twisting yourself in knots trying to quantify and then vilify this segment "who've made up their minds".
I don't think yours is a very rational assessment of what's been going on. Sure, there's a very small and very vocal minority that probably won't change their mind. On any forum or fanbase there are such extremes, on both sides of the spectrum. But I think you're underplaying the fact that there's also a significant segment who simply don't think he is the right man for the job based on the evidence of the totality of our football and our performances last season, whose concerns have not been fully allayed by a couple of successful cup runs. For many of us, we're hoping for the best, whilst being justifiably concerned that we'll see more of the same confusing tactics and disappointing performances. That doesn't mean we're hysterical or determined to moan about him at every opportunity. It doesn't mean we don't want to be proved wrong. But it also doesn't mean we're going to issue him with blanket trust simply because we won a cup. So many aspects of last season were bad enough for him to have to earn that trust back.
Yeah I was talking about the mentalists who constantly spew negativity. That's it.
One of the best
Well going off what we can guess from news, as no one actually knows. He came in as a very in demand coach and we acquiesced to more than usual in terms of transfers. What exactly that was, we don’t know.
Since then a new owner (football wise) has come in with a history of having a recruitment team in charge of transfers, not the head coach. Then we have hired a large number of recruitment personnel and hired/fired scouts. Then we have had ETH say some (again we have no idea what that means) power has been taken away from him. Not sure what you need?
The only thing making people think he’s still got any involvement is we’re linked to some ex players kind of ignoring the fact we’ve already signed some folks. De Ligt on the cheap is a no brainer but it seems evident the first choice was Braithwate/Yoro. Mazraoui is a very good full back who can play both sides, I’d rather we go for someone younger myself but if he’s available for £15m odd as rumoured, that’s excellent. Ineos will be overseeing and deciding on everything recruitment wise, I’m sure ETH can give his thoughts and might even have a veto still but I highly doubt he’s involved in any capacity in identifying players.
Engagement bait merchants!
And the fact the man himself said he is involved in the decision making.
Don't want to be dramatic, but 2 more injuries, and he is back on thin ice and flirting with a sacking. Season hasn't even started, and we have one of the likely starting CB's out for 2 months, ageing DM, plus half the team won't be ready for the starting games due to going deep in their respective national team competitions.
It so easy for the media to create a toxic narrative around United when things are not going well, and once it starts...
It so easy for the media to create a toxic narrative around United when things are not going well, and once it starts...
A big problem last year was not just injury but also the style of football. If he reverts to pragmatism when it's needed, he can rebuild some stability.
Both his assistants gone. I'm finding it... unusual that they both go and get replaced but he stays.
Yeah no worries
It is the same old story. We cant get rid of the deadwood on big contracts. Im sure he would have wanted McT, Maguire, AWB and Casemiro gone, but it's near impossible.
Excellent performance so far. Nice to see.
If he had a say in bringing in the 2 new Dutch coaches then he deserves credit. I’ve a feeling RVN will be our biggest signing this summer. He’ll be the one that transforms our attack and style of play.
Ineos have obviously set up the staff so he can have a good shot of success, but has a plan in case a change is needed
Yeah certainly looks that way
Far cheaper to replace the coaches. Cost will be one of the main reasons he's still here.
Wasn't that also the case last season that the coaching staff was replaced?
Here in Australia (AFL) it often happens with the senior coach remaining in post but his assistants or other management figures being replaced. Damien Hardwick is the most famous example.
After looking at the starting lineup this night I felt sorry for Ten Hag. One or more injuries and people will be calling to sack him in December. Don’t think he will change the way he wants to play because if injuries.
The media don't need to create a toxic narrative, United fans do it for them. All they have to do is read what United fans are saying online, create a doom loop of negativity, and then ask chatbot to create a new article based on that hysteria every week. Farm the clicks for months without lifting a finger
That would be surprising though, since the PSV fans' main criticism of his season there, was that PSV had no recognizable style of play and there was little to no progress on that front in the course of the season.
He may have learned from that and be a much better coach now, of course, but between Ten Hag, Hake, and Van Nistelrooij, I wouldn't first be looking at the latter as the cause of such change.
He seemingly wants to recreate this, with some different players.
He’s in for a tough start to season with Yoro and Hojlund out. Most likely won’t be until they are back and we have a full squad that we can expect things to start taking proper shape.
We are going to start the season again with Maguire at CB and then people will complain that the defensive line is too deep. Its a bit silly that after 3 summers with ETH we are in this position
What's to feel sorry about? He is probably the luckiest man in the country.
Give it Ruud til the end of the season..
That preseason game against Betis was the most interesting one we've had under ETH since he started. It showed the framework of what he actually wants to achieve and actually identified exactly why we had problems last season.
The most notable weakness we had last season was our shape off the ball. It was way too easy to get through us. We weren't good at pressing high in a 433 set up, as the movements required to trigger a press were too fluid to be effective in such a fast paced league. For us, this meant that too much space was provided to the opposition when the press was bypassed. This preseason, we've adopted a 442 set up out of possession, where the front 2 are the main pressers, with an emphasis on keeping our defensive shape without the ball. This allows us to quickly transition to a midblock with ease. The gap to this is that we won't be a team that consistently presses. We'll have periods of sustained pressing within a game, but not the constant full press that Liverpool or City use.
The second change that has been apparent is that we are far less fluid in deeper positions than we attempted to be last season. Looking closer to our first season than the last. Our movements are a lot simpler, both in and out of possession.
Whilst in possession, the use of switches and direct balls held in key areas is the focus of our tactic. The idea, is to find an area with space or win a duel, in order to buy the time for midfielders to push up the pitch and have overloads in the final third. The wingers being the main points of attack, whilst quick combinations to get a free channel of space is the secondary route to attack. I don't think our defensive shape from last season could handle the push up the pitch from our midfielders, leading to easy counters against us. I think this season, the 442 gives us that safety net.
In addition, attacking wise, our underperforming wingers were a massive letdown last season. Antony's preseason just highlights how much we were struggling in these areas due to poor individual play. Amad stepping up and a year of growth from Garnacho really gives us another dimension. In addition, for the tactic to be effective, its quite clear getting balls into the flanks is important. That switch of play is key, and last season, there were many points in which we didn't have a single midfielder or defender who could do this. This is why Martinez and Shaw were such big misses. Casemiro was struggling so much out of possession, that he didn't have energy and wasn't in the game enough to do this in possession. Eriksen's legs were spent and Mainoo was just entering the first team.
We were able to control last nights game the way we did, because Eriksen and Casemiro were able to keep up with the tempo that Betis were playing at, which wouldn't be the case in the league. This allowed them to have the energy to make the type of passes they wanted and needed to make to keep us on the front foot. Mainoo has that ability, but this is why ensuring we have another player with skill and energy in midfield to play with him is important (who is not a no.10). Martinez, Shaw, Mainoo and Yoro can switch play effectively. Maguire also can, but he needs time and space to do it, which isn't always a given. Amad is a secret weapon here, as he is a create wide playmaker, so regular comes inside to support the midfield. What's also apparent is that Lindelof, AWB, Johnny Evans, Mctominay and Varane can't do this. All of whom were massive parts of our season last year. Which can explain our difficulties on the ball in certain periods. One other caveat to this is Onana. He's very aggressive on the ball, but I'm not sure how beneficial his play is to our overall game. He's a bit too direct, aggressive and loose with his passing, which can put pressure on our ability to get the ball out of our defensive third.
The most notable weakness we had last season was our shape off the ball. It was way too easy to get through us. We weren't good at pressing high in a 433 set up, as the movements required to trigger a press were too fluid to be effective in such a fast paced league. For us, this meant that too much space was provided to the opposition when the press was bypassed. This preseason, we've adopted a 442 set up out of possession, where the front 2 are the main pressers, with an emphasis on keeping our defensive shape without the ball. This allows us to quickly transition to a midblock with ease. The gap to this is that we won't be a team that consistently presses. We'll have periods of sustained pressing within a game, but not the constant full press that Liverpool or City use.
The second change that has been apparent is that we are far less fluid in deeper positions than we attempted to be last season. Looking closer to our first season than the last. Our movements are a lot simpler, both in and out of possession.
Whilst in possession, the use of switches and direct balls held in key areas is the focus of our tactic. The idea, is to find an area with space or win a duel, in order to buy the time for midfielders to push up the pitch and have overloads in the final third. The wingers being the main points of attack, whilst quick combinations to get a free channel of space is the secondary route to attack. I don't think our defensive shape from last season could handle the push up the pitch from our midfielders, leading to easy counters against us. I think this season, the 442 gives us that safety net.
In addition, attacking wise, our underperforming wingers were a massive letdown last season. Antony's preseason just highlights how much we were struggling in these areas due to poor individual play. Amad stepping up and a year of growth from Garnacho really gives us another dimension. In addition, for the tactic to be effective, its quite clear getting balls into the flanks is important. That switch of play is key, and last season, there were many points in which we didn't have a single midfielder or defender who could do this. This is why Martinez and Shaw were such big misses. Casemiro was struggling so much out of possession, that he didn't have energy and wasn't in the game enough to do this in possession. Eriksen's legs were spent and Mainoo was just entering the first team.
We were able to control last nights game the way we did, because Eriksen and Casemiro were able to keep up with the tempo that Betis were playing at, which wouldn't be the case in the league. This allowed them to have the energy to make the type of passes they wanted and needed to make to keep us on the front foot. Mainoo has that ability, but this is why ensuring we have another player with skill and energy in midfield to play with him is important (who is not a no.10). Martinez, Shaw, Mainoo and Yoro can switch play effectively. Maguire also can, but he needs time and space to do it, which isn't always a given. Amad is a secret weapon here, as he is a create wide playmaker, so regular comes inside to support the midfield. What's also apparent is that Lindelof, AWB, Johnny Evans, Mctominay and Varane can't do this. All of whom were massive parts of our season last year. Which can explain our difficulties on the ball in certain periods. One other caveat to this is Onana. He's very aggressive on the ball, but I'm not sure how beneficial his play is to our overall game. He's a bit too direct, aggressive and loose with his passing, which can put pressure on our ability to get the ball out of our defensive third.
Watched the first half of the Betis game and there was some decent stuff, a more compact defensive shape, promising signs.
I have decided to stop being negative about Ten Hag, want to go into the season optimistic.
I have decided to stop being negative about Ten Hag, want to go into the season optimistic.
He seemingly wants to recreate this, with some different players.
I definitely think he is trying to create a blend of that team and his last Ajax team before he left. Our build up play and the lone cdm with high 8s is similar to that Ajax, but our attack resembles closer his last Ajax team (the one with Antony in it).
In terms of that team in the picture, there are a couple issues our squad has in replicating that. De Jong was able to be left all by himself in the build up because of his close control and technique under pressure. Casemiro can't do that as he is very slow and clunky. Mainoo could potentially do that, if we got Ugarte he seems like he might be able to do that as well as he seems comfortable under pressure. Their front three though were press demons and would interchange quite often, if you watch a match someone like Neres especially was a beast at pressing in that team. Us on the other hand have to carry Rashford if he plays on the left. I do think though a Garnacho, Amad, Zirkzee/Rasmus front three could have good pressing intensity. Then if you back it up with Bruno/Mainoo/Ugarte which is also a good pressing three. Add a dominant ball playing CB next to Martinez and I think this team takes a big step up.
Just need to get the likes of Ugarte and another CB in and pray everyone stays fit...
That's great to hear! So, actually you can play decent football and be more compact even playing with Maguire, Casemiro, Eriksen, McTominay and Sancho all starting?
Now imagine how ETH is going to cook with the likes of Martinez, Mainoo, Bruno, Zirksee and Garnacho. We're in for a great season.
Another trophy for ETH with the Snapdragon Cup won. Good start for the new season!
His comments in the recent Q&Q about injuries being unavoidable and players need to push themselves to the edge are concerning.
Edit: link below (look in comments section) for those interested as there's other bits and pieces in there.
https://www.reddit.com/r/reddevils/s/KHETJ9j1R2
Edit: link below (look in comments section) for those interested as there's other bits and pieces in there.
https://www.reddit.com/r/reddevils/s/KHETJ9j1R2
It will help filtering out players who are not at the level of fitness necessary to play for him. He’s a harsh disciplinarian and will always require his players to push themselves to the limits, if they cannot do it there will be other who can.
Great breakdown of an attacking principle the team used throughout the Betis game -
Ten Hag was a rizzla paper away from getting the boot. Let's face it, he only didn't because there was no "better option". Whatever that is supposed to mean.
We could now be bringing in another two of his ex Ajax 2019 team in De ligt and Noussair Mazraoui.
Has there ever been another manager that has brought in more of his ex players than Ten Hag?
We could now be bringing in another two of his ex Ajax 2019 team in De ligt and Noussair Mazraoui.
Has there ever been another manager that has brought in more of his ex players than Ten Hag?
Until they are all injured and the team sinks to 8th in the league.
Same principles, same old results.
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