Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[tomaldinho1]

You made out that one side is motivated by being right and the side you are on isn’t. While providing no real evidence as to why.

We were talking about how he left us without a midfield all season and you said it wasn’t all bad because we won a cup. We won a cup because he abandoned his suicidal tactics after over 50 games of evidence it didn’t work. I’m not sure it’s deserving of huge praise that it took him so long to realise.

My friend go into the ETH thread, take a look at the bulk of what's been going on there, it's just repeat posters saying the same thing over and over, they will criticize him for everything and praise him for nothing. Sane debate went out the window long ago. A telling thing is we now know for a fact Ineos run transfers and yet you still see people saying ETH is picking targets.

Re what I said, Yes or No question, was last season awful overall? I think it was about on par with most of our seasons post SAF, EL qualification and FA cup win. It's probably better, as sad as that is, than most in fact. Stylistically it was all over the shop but, if you are being fair, his main CM signing (whether or not you think Mount will work out, I personally do not think he's an 8) was injured all season and Mainoo only came back from injury around Nov, Amrabat was injured a lot, there were issues with basically every position for long periods of the season. If you don't think things will change, no problem.

That's not to say it was a good season but you can't criticise the Glazers, moan about not having a DoF etc. not the right footballing structure & then not be interested in giving a coach a chance in the new setup. Even more interesting/relevant, let's see a coach who we have already seen in the old structure, that for me will be really telling. If ETH can now pick things up and kick on, it's safe to say all our coaches were handicapped by the setup, if he doesn't, maybe the impact of the setup is a bit overblown.

Re tactics for the final, we've played that way before, it was more that a) Martinez/Varane were back as a pair and b) we were playing Pep's City who are perfect for that setup and sitting in to counter. I will also say, even since Ole's days, this team annoying tend to be able to raise their game when they have/want to which makes you wonder why they can't do it more consistently. Pep was also a bit of a moron with his setup, everyone knew we'd play like that + just made the whole second half Doku doing one on ones versus the best one on one defender in the league. It was a great tactical performance but we won't be playing like that against teams outside of City, Arsenal and Pool if they're any good post Klopp. Tactically in one off games I think ETH's actually been pretty decent, hence why his record in knock out comps is good. The souring of the CL run though wasn't really tactical, it was just Onana (and Case to a lesser extent as he didn't need to get himself sent off). I am hopeful this season will be a really exciting one.

 

[tomaldinho1]

you cant blame fans for not supporting him or to put it in a better way want him out. Last year was dross from all aspects, performance, results, injuries and everything, we fluked a final and won and saved the season. Those fans, like myself, are not that hopefull for this year. INEOS themselves took ages to confirm him (with rumours saying they couldnt agree a deal with tuchel and thats why he stayed). They also changed ALL of his staff which means ALOT! We support the club not an indivdual! If things are not going well, if we are playing dross you cant blindly suppost somone like that. No issues here most fans wanted him out before the FA CUP final, lets hope he changes his bloody tactics and the new staff will help him out in that.

That's cool. Let's see how this year goes, some people think he can do much better, some don't. We'll know if he's getting sacked within a few games I think, he's got no credit in the bank and we need to start well.

 

[Crimson King]

That's cool. Let's see how this year goes, some people think he can do much better, some don't. We'll know if he's getting sacked within a few games I think, he's got no credit in the bank and we need to start well.

I think if this is the attitude you're going in with then you're going to be disappointed.

It's after a major international summer, half our first XI haven't been on the tour and we've already picked up a couple of injuries to players expected to start. It's likely the team that starts against Fulham might be very different to the one that starts after the transfer window closes. They need to move players out before bringing any in, I wouldn't be surprised if we do deals very late in the window.

It might well be a sluggish start as teams look for fitness and form. There were plenty of seasons like that under SAF, except we normally ground out a few victories until things clicked.

I'm hoping we can do the same this season, but I'm going to hold off making a judgement until late September/early October if I can do.

 

[NLunited]

We still have a squad with gaping holes in it. Unless we bring in a dm, cb, lb at the minimum, we won‘t even be challenging for top four.

Amass and Collyer: too soon to rely on them for significant game minutes. We get those signings in and bring our talent slowly.

We will probably get those signings in, I can‘t take INEOS seriously if we don‘t.

 

[Dannn411]

We still have a squad with gaping holes in it. Unless we bring in a dm, cb, lb at the minimum, we won‘t even be challenging for top four.

Amass and Collyer: too soon to rely on them for significant game minutes. We get those signings in and bring our talent slowly.

We will probably get those signings in, I can‘t take INEOS seriously if we don‘t.

We will sign Mazraoui who can play both LB and RB. Dalot can also play both sides. Shaw will hopefully stay fit, Malacia will return eventually and then there's Amass. 5 deep at LB, 2 deep at RB. Unless we plan to ship Shaw/Malacia this summer, we're fine there.

I think we will also sign one more CB. Maybe De Ligt, maybe someone else. I can live with Yoro, Martinez, New CB, Evans, Maguire as a CB group.

The real critical department is midfield. If we do not massively upgrade that midfield before the end of the window, we will be in big trouble once again.

 

[acnumber9]

My friend go into the ETH thread, take a look at the bulk of what's been going on there, it's just repeat posters saying the same thing over and over, they will criticize him for everything and praise him for nothing. Sane debate went out the window long ago. A telling thing is we now know for a fact Ineos run transfers and yet you still see people saying ETH is picking targets.

Re what I said, Yes or No question, was last season awful overall? I think it was about on par with most of our seasons post SAF, EL qualification and FA cup win. It's probably better, as sad as that is, than most in fact. Stylistically it was all over the shop but, if you are being fair, his main CM signing (whether or not you think Mount will work out, I personally do not think he's an 8) was injured all season and Mainoo only came back from injury around Nov, Amrabat was injured a lot, there were issues with basically every position for long periods of the season. If you don't think things will change, no problem.

That's not to say it was a good season but you can't criticise the Glazers, moan about not having a DoF etc. not the right footballing structure & then not be interested in giving a coach a chance in the new setup. Even more interesting/relevant, let's see a coach who we have already seen in the old structure, that for me will be really telling. If ETH can now pick things up and kick on, it's safe to say all our coaches were handicapped by the setup, if he doesn't, maybe the impact of the setup is a bit overblown.

Re tactics for the final, we've played that way before, it was more that a) Martinez/Varane were back as a pair and b) we were playing Pep's City who are perfect for that setup and sitting in to counter. I will also say, even since Ole's days, this team annoying tend to be able to raise their game when they have/want to which makes you wonder why they can't do it more consistently. Pep was also a bit of a moron with his setup, everyone knew we'd play like that + just made the whole second half Doku doing one on ones versus the best one on one defender in the league. It was a great tactical performance but we won't be playing like that against teams outside of City, Arsenal and Pool if they're any good post Klopp. Tactically in one off games I think ETH's actually been pretty decent, hence why his record in knock out comps is good. The souring of the CL run though wasn't really tactical, it was just Onana (and Case to a lesser extent as he didn't need to get himself sent off). I am hopeful this season will be a really exciting one.

This is the ETH thread. I don’t see how either side are any different. Why is one side more invested in being right than the other. The only difference is the side of the fence you find yourself on.

Come on now, Ten Hag is clearly still heavily involved in picking targets.

 

[IRN-BRUno]

I doubt he avoided yesterday's press conference, there's only so much he can say during pre-season so it makes sense to switch things around and get a different view. He's next scheduled to speak 00:30 UK time on Thursday night/Friday morning ahead of the Liverpool game.

 

[Posh Red]

This is the ETH thread. I don’t see how either side are any different. Why is one side more invested in being right than the other. The only difference is the side of the fence you find yourself on.

Come on now, Ten Hag is clearly still heavily involved in picking targets.

You say this, but all of the latest reports, as well as what the manager has said publicly, suggest the opposite. I don’t really understand how you can use the word ‘clearly’ in this context

 

[acnumber9]

You say this, but all of the latest reports, as well as what the manager has said publicly, suggest the opposite. I don’t really understand how you can use the word ‘clearly’ in this context

It’s just a massive coincidence that we’re linked to several players that Ten Hag has managed previously then. Like there were no other right back options?

 

[Posh Red]

It’s just a massive coincidence that we’re linked to several players that Ten Hag has managed previously then. Like there were no other right back options.

So it’s a conspiracy being peddled by the manager, club officials, and the press then? If you say so.

 

[acnumber9]

So it’s a conspiracy being peddled by the manager, club officials, and the press then? If you say so.

If you want to believe he isn’t heavily influencing our transfer dealings you knock yourself out. Not sure where the press has said he isn’t heavily involved mind you.

 

[tomaldinho1]

I think if this is the attitude you're going in with then you're going to be disappointed.

It's after a major international summer, half our first XI haven't been on the tour and we've already picked up a couple of injuries to players expected to start. It's likely the team that starts against Fulham might be very different to the one that starts after the transfer window closes. They need to move players out before bringing any in, I wouldn't be surprised if we do deals very late in the window.

It might well be a sluggish start as teams look for fitness and form. There were plenty of seasons like that under SAF, except we normally ground out a few victories until things clicked.

I'm hoping we can do the same this season, but I'm going to hold off making a judgement until late September/early October if I can do.

I get that but personally I believe, especially looking at our start which is quite favourable (Fulham H, Brighton A, Pool H, Soton A, CPFC A) if we’re playing poorly and dropping a lot of points they will act.

 

[tomaldinho1]

This is the ETH thread. I don’t see how either side are any different. Why is one side more invested in being right than the other. The only difference is the side of the fence you find yourself on.

Come on now, Ten Hag is clearly still heavily involved in picking targets.

He literally came out and said that’s been taken from him and he’s happy about it.

 

[Tony247]

Injury crisis is too much coincidental. Need thorough investigation what the heck is going on.

 

[Overhaul FC]

So the only new player we have available is Zirkzee...

 

[JinnerJamie]

So the only new player we have available is Zirkzee...

and Mount

 

[Robbie Boy]

This is the ETH thread. I don’t see how either side are any different. Why is one side more invested in being right than the other. The only difference is the side of the fence you find yourself on.

Come on now, Ten Hag is clearly still heavily involved in picking targets.

I have no dog in this fight - I feel he's very lucky to still be here - but that poster is right: the overarching theme in here is constant negativity.

There's some absolute melts who are determined to discredit his cup wins, for example.

 

[Borys]

We need to have an option for when Bruno isn't available, needs a rest or has a dramatic drop in form. I know he's been indestructible recently but anyone can be injured, Mount should be our go to option here. We've overplayed Bruno as there weren't options, a fit Mount gives us one.

This is the last problem we have to solve at the moment surely?

My friend go into the ETH thread, take a look at the bulk of what's been going on there, it's just repeat posters saying the same thing over and over, they will criticize him for everything and praise him for nothing. Sane debate went out the window long ago. A telling thing is we now know for a fact Ineos run transfers and yet you still see people saying ETH is picking targets.

Re what I said, Yes or No question, was last season awful overall? I think it was about on par with most of our seasons post SAF, EL qualification and FA cup win. It's probably better, as sad as that is, than most in fact. Stylistically it was all over the shop but, if you are being fair, his main CM signing (whether or not you think Mount will work out, I personally do not think he's an 8) was injured all season and Mainoo only came back from injury around Nov, Amrabat was injured a lot, there were issues with basically every position for long periods of the season. If you don't think things will change, no problem.

That's not to say it was a good season but you can't criticise the Glazers, moan about not having a DoF etc. not the right footballing structure & then not be interested in giving a coach a chance in the new setup. Even more interesting/relevant, let's see a coach who we have already seen in the old structure, that for me will be really telling. If ETH can now pick things up and kick on, it's safe to say all our coaches were handicapped by the setup, if he doesn't, maybe the impact of the setup is a bit overblown.

Re tactics for the final, we've played that way before, it was more that a) Martinez/Varane were back as a pair and b) we were playing Pep's City who are perfect for that setup and sitting in to counter. I will also say, even since Ole's days, this team annoying tend to be able to raise their game when they have/want to which makes you wonder why they can't do it more consistently. Pep was also a bit of a moron with his setup, everyone knew we'd play like that + just made the whole second half Doku doing one on ones versus the best one on one defender in the league. It was a great tactical performance but we won't be playing like that against teams outside of City, Arsenal and Pool if they're any good post Klopp. Tactically in one off games I think ETH's actually been pretty decent, hence why his record in knock out comps is good. The souring of the CL run though wasn't really tactical, it was just Onana (and Case to a lesser extent as he didn't need to get himself sent off). I am hopeful this season will be a really exciting one.

I will praise him for what he's done good, I have no problem with that. But, what is that exactly? The players has won the final against City, not ETH- the team that played the same counter attacking football way before Ten Hag era. Give me examples of his decisions that actually made a positive impact on the team last season and I'll praise him.

 

[acnumber9]

He literally came out and said that’s been taken from him and he’s happy about it.

He said all transfer responsibility was taken from him? I’d love to see that quote. I won’t though, because it doesn’t exist.

 

[acnumber9]

I have no dog in this fight - I feel he's very lucky to still be here - but that poster is right: the overarching theme in here is constant negativity.

There's some absolute melts who are determined to discredit his cup wins, for example.

That may be the case. It doesn’t really prove those who want him to stay are any less concerned about being proved right.

 

[Posh Red]

I have no dog in this fight - I feel he's very lucky to still be here - but that poster is right: the overarching theme in here is constant negativity.

There's some absolute melts who are determined to discredit his cup wins, for example.

I’ve found I spend less and less time reading the forum, these days. It just feels like a constant stream of negativity for the sake of it.

 

[Cheimoon]

He said all transfer responsibility was taken from him? I’d love to see that quote. I won’t though, because it doesn’t exist.

No involvement would be too much, but much less than you're insisting here. See the second part of the interview quoted here:

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/eri...on-i-have-ever-experienced-as-a-coach.483743/

 

[Robbie Boy]

That may be the case. It doesn’t really prove those who want him to stay are any less concerned about being proved right.

I think it does tbh. There's been agendas from day one due to allegiances to previous managers etc. Some keep repeating that he's shite and should be sacked. Then when he is inevitably sacked, no doubt they'll bask in their "told you so" glory. The people "supporting" him seem more rational and just want him to do well. That's my take anyway, and I have zero allegiances to either "side".

 

[Robbie Boy]

I’ve found I spend less and less time reading the forum, these days. It just feels like a constant stream of negativity for the sake of it.

Yeah, it's all gone very hysterical since the Euros ended.

 

[acnumber9]

No involvement would be too much, but much less than you're insisting here. See the second part of the interview quoted here:

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/eri...on-i-have-ever-experienced-as-a-coach.483743/

“The fact that there are also Dutch people among them is actually a coincidence. Primarily these were players who were brought in from our organization. But of course I support it, let that be clear. And we still make the choice together.”

He said they make the choice together. That seems pretty heavily involved to me.

 

[acnumber9]

I think it does tbh. There's been agendas from day one due to allegiances to previous managers etc. Some keep repeating that he's shite and should be sacked. Then when he is inevitably sacked, no doubt they'll bask in their "told you so" glory. The people "supporting" him seem more rational and just want him to do well. That's my take anyway, and I have zero allegiances to either "side".

And there were a number of people insistent that he was the right man so they become as entrenched in that opinion as anybody else. There’s a lot of negativity, which will largely be a result of our worst league season in about 35 years. A lot of that will also be based on the self harm inflicted by his tactics. That isn’t about being proved right. That’s just the facts.

 

[tjb]

I think if this is the attitude you're going in with then you're going to be disappointed.

It's after a major international summer, half our first XI haven't been on the tour and we've already picked up a couple of injuries to players expected to start. It's likely the team that starts against Fulham might be very different to the one that starts after the transfer window closes. They need to move players out before bringing any in, I wouldn't be surprised if we do deals very late in the window.

It might well be a sluggish start as teams look for fitness and form. There were plenty of seasons like that under SAF, except we normally ground out a few victories until things clicked.

I'm hoping we can do the same this season, but I'm going to hold off making a judgement until late September/early October if I can do.

I'm sorry, but if we're serious as a club, we have to approach things that way. When we changed the backroom, we essentially blamed the people who were supporting him. However, as a club, we cannot afford to play as we did last season, especially at the start of the season. To begin the season, I believe the performance must be significantly improved, even if the results are not ideal. There must be some shift in approach. Ten Haag is in a position where he must prove to us that he is a competent manager. Some fans dislike that reality, but you can't play as poorly as we did for as long without having your talent called into question.

As a team seeking to return to the top, we cannot afford to spend time with a manager who is unable to perform or handle the pressures of working at a club of our magnitude. We coddled him for two seasons because United, as a club, overvalues the manager's role. However, he has lost that credit and must work toward gaining trust rather than having it at the start of the season. We can't talk about club standards and then accept terrible football.

 

[Cheimoon]

He said they make the choice together. That seems pretty heavily involved to me.

In the final stretch, yes, but it sounds like he's not much involved in the entire earlier process anymore.

 

[acnumber9]

In the final stretch, yes, but it sounds like he's not much involved in the entire earlier process anymore.

Just the actual decision making.

 

[Cheimoon]

Just the actual decision making.

You said this previously:

It’s just a massive coincidence that we’re linked to several players that Ten Hag has managed previously then. Like there were no other right back options?

If you want to believe he isn’t heavily influencing our transfer dealings you knock yourself out. Not sure where the press has said he isn’t heavily involved mind you.

That sounds like you think he's involved in picking targets. Or if not, what did you mean by it? Cause it sounds to me like you're scoping this out much larger than what Ten Hag said in the interview.

 

[OverratedOpinion]

I think it does tbh. There's been agendas from day one due to allegiances to previous managers etc. Some keep repeating that he's shite and should be sacked. Then when he is inevitably sacked, no doubt they'll bask in their "told you so" glory. The people "supporting" him seem more rational and just want him to do well. That's my take anyway, and I have zero allegiances to either "side".

The people who support him are bound to sound more calm because they have gotten what they wanted.

Everyone wants him to do well. I'd far rather be the person hearing "I told you so" whilst my club did really well.

 

[Robbie Boy]

And there were a number of people insistent that he was the right man so they become as entrenched in that opinion as anybody else. There’s a lot of negativity, which will largely be a result of our worst league season in about 35 years. A lot of that will also be based on the self harm inflicted by his tactics. That isn’t about being proved right. That’s just the facts.

I thought he was going to be brilliant. But, it's pretty obvious now that the best case scenario is that he can somehow get us playing cohesive football. I'm not sure there's a huge cohort that want to be proven right about him being the right man for the job. To me, it looks like there's a group who stand up against the constant negativity and that's really about it.

Of course there's plenty to be negative about. Last season was absolutely tragic. In normal circumstances - i.e. not in the middle of a takeover - I reckon he would have been sacked by Christmas, or thereabouts. I also think he's only still here by virtue of the fact that INEOS weren't overawed by any of the candidates that they interviewed. But, it's also a fact that he finished 3rd in his first season and has reached 3 Cup finals, winning two of them. So, there has been some good too.

It's like this; I thought early days that Ole was a complete and utter dud and loved nothing more than a moan about him. But, I decided to go with the flow and be objective. Then he went and done some decent work and I acknowledged that. So, it's probably better for everyone if people at least tried to be objective about him instead of just coming in and repeating the same negative shit on an hourly basis while downplaying any good that he's done. At the end of the day, he'll be our manager for at least another 5 or 6 months.

 

[Robbie Boy]

The people who support him are bound to sound more calm because they have gotten what they wanted.

Everyone wants him to do well. I'd far rather be the person hearing "I told you so" whilst my club did really well.

I'm not really following this trail of thought tbh. There's such things as nuance and balance when discussing him.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

This is the ETH thread. I don’t see how either side are any different. Why is one side more invested in being right than the other. The only difference is the side of the fence you find yourself on.

Come on now, Ten Hag is clearly still heavily involved in picking targets.

The side who want him to succeed should be more invested in being right. Because them being right is a quicker path to success for the club we all support than the alternative. That’s a bias I can fully understand (and relate to)

What is much less understandable is people who are absolutely determined to downplay anything even slightly positive and will not accept even the tiny possibility that he might turn things round. They come across as being more fixated on being proved right than the team starting to win things under the current manager.

 

[OverratedOpinion]

What is much less understandable is people who are absolutely determined to downplay anything even slightly positive and will not accept even the tiny possibility that he might turn things round. They come across as being more fixated on being proved right than the starting to win things.

I'd say there is a combination of a couple of things at play here.

Firstly it's the belief that it's fundamentally very unlikely that he will turn it around. It's not refusing to accept it, it's just thinking it probably won't happen based on everything we've seen. Secondly the frustration at the excuse making and reframing of what actually happened last season.

I don't buy this idea that people are just anti Ten Hag. He's just not a divisive enough personality for that. If he shocked everyone and got us playing I think the majority of us who are against him now would change our minds very quickly.

 

[Robbie Boy]

If he shocked everyone and got us playing I think the majority of us who are against him now would change our minds very quickly.

I very much doubt that judging by some posters attitude and reaction to beating City in the FA Cup Final. Being right on the internet is serious business after all.

 

[Doracle]

The side who want him to succeed should be more invested in being right. Because them being right is a quicker path to success for the club we all support than the alternative. That’s a bias I can fully understand (and relate to)

What is much less understandable is people who are absolutely determined to downplay anything even slightly positive and will not accept even the tiny possibility that he might turn things round. They come across as being more fixated on being proved right than the team starting to win things under the current manager.

I think we are still waiting to see something from ETH to get positive about. If we come out first match of the season and blow away Fulham playing great football or Erik makes some tactical masterstroke to turn the match around, then I’m sure there will be a lot more positivity.

As it is, we still have the severe mental scars of a season where we probably played well in no more than 5 matches, had metrics suggesting we were the 15th best team in the league and have lost 2 of our 3 friendly matches so far. Its fantasy to suggest that we should all just pretend everything is definitely going to be ok.

 

[OverratedOpinion]

I very much doubt that judging by some posters attitude and reaction to beating City in the FA Cup Final. Being right on the internet is serious business after all.

Turning us into a side who plays consistently well and that can compete with Man City for league titles was what he was hired to do.

Winning the FA Cup whilst brilliant was not the goal.

You're saying that people didn't all change their opinion after a season where he actually moved us further away from our target than we have been in 30 years? That's not very surprising.

The idea that you talk about nuance but then want to act like "Won FA Cup never question Ten Hag" is incredibly ironic

 

[Smores]

The side who want him to succeed should be more invested in being right. Because them being right is a quicker path to success for the club we all support than the alternative. That’s a bias I can fully understand (and relate to)

What is much less understandable is people who are absolutely determined to downplay anything even slightly positive and will not accept even the tiny possibility that he might turn things round. They come across as being more fixated on being proved right than the team starting to win things under the current manager.

Who doesn't want him to succeed though? Him being successful is the club being successful so it's ridiculous
to suggest there's anyone who doesn't want him to succeed.

I don't see much difference in negativity to be honest, just a different allocation of blame. Those aggressively supporting Ten Hag last season tend to be really critical of our players and squad. I don't understand the reasoning behind criticising players good, criticising manager bad. Blame is blame, low quality posts are low quality posts.

Ultimately when you've got split performance threads for individuals it's going to be the case that they all mostly become critical. Everyone's got their own favourite person(s) to blame.

 

[Crimson King]

I'm sorry, but if we're serious as a club, we have to approach things that way. When we changed the backroom, we essentially blamed the people who were supporting him. However, as a club, we cannot afford to play as we did last season, especially at the start of the season. To begin the season, I believe the performance must be significantly improved, even if the results are not ideal. There must be some shift in approach. Ten Haag is in a position where he must prove to us that he is a competent manager. Some fans dislike that reality, but you can't play as poorly as we did for as long without having your talent called into question.

As a team seeking to return to the top, we cannot afford to spend time with a manager who is unable to perform or handle the pressures of working at a club of our magnitude. We coddled him for two seasons because United, as a club, overvalues the manager's role. However, he has lost that credit and must work toward gaining trust rather than having it at the start of the season. We can't talk about club standards and then accept terrible football.

Eurgh, fecking fed up of hearing about standards all the time. What does it even mean at this point? It's like when Brexit junkies bang on about getting 'sovereignty' back. Meaningless.

The club is a mess. The Glazers have run it to the brink of collapse. It's going to take time to get things truly back in order and to a place of stability, from which you can build long term success.

We obviously need to play better next season, and I think that will be guaranteed if we avoid the kind of injury nightmare we had last season anyway. Beyond that, all I'm saying is that it might take a month or two before we actually see if that's happening this season, because of the unavoidable disruption to pre-season prep.

If we lose the opening 5 games 5-0 then obviously alarm bells will start ringing and they might be forced to take drastic action. There currently isn't a manager available though who makes me think "yes, that's the guy who can take us to the top again", so I'm going to hope that doesn't happen.