We really need to win this game
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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In a way it is perfect because it will take pressure off of him. Having difficult start to season means he will likely not be judged adversely for picking up few points because there will be understanding that it’s largely driven by fixture difficult. Eg if we are sitting on 6-7 points from these 6 games he won’t be at risk. Having easy start would be more tricky and would have come at a greater pressure.
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How many shots will we concede in those first 6 games?
Overs/Unders on 100?
It's what he has played for the vast majority of his coaching career and a huge reason we hired him in the first place.
Exactly. It's fine having Casemiro when you have Modric and Kroos next to him to keep possession.
Depends. Are we going to address the midfield and defence? Will shaw be back fit, martinez? If so, it might not be as bad as previous.
He needs a win and a convincing performance in that opening game especially being the literal opening game of the league this coming season with all the TV cameras there.
Anything like that opening game with Wolves last year performance wise and the pressure will be cranked up.
Anything like that opening game with Wolves last year performance wise and the pressure will be cranked up.
Understandable too I suppose as that’s partly what some people see a forum for. There’s just a lot of negativity, unnecessarily I feel, at times. Then it breeds.
Agreed. He even said he had to play a more direct style with us.
On balance I'd have been fine with sacking or keeping ETH. But I think what has tilted me (and probably INEOS) to be satisfied with ETH staying on is his ability to bed in and improve young players. A constant complaint post-Fergie is how most of our players seem to deteriorate even if they've had a breakout year.
It's certainly a huge financial incentive for INEOS.
It's certainly a huge financial incentive for INEOS.
True
Next season I can see Gore and Collyear (maybe even Lacey,) being gradually introduced
The kamikaze ball seemed to have the backing of Murtough - he's gone now. I don't think Wilcox and co. are going to tolerate more of the same.
Whatever you think of Ten Hag, he's still a good coach and capable of drilling a team to play different styles. The problem isn't ability or know how it's stubbornness. He needs to show he can be flexible if he wants to keep his job.
As said before, I give them a pass because Berrada and Ashworth (who are massive appointments btw) are not in the building yet. However let's not pretend that this was handled elegantly because it wasn't. Let's hope that INEOS make a recovery on this because else we're in trouble.
I didn’t say nor imply this. In fact, one of the things I said to you was that Ten Hag is very much in the same tier of managers we were reportedly in discussions to replace him with. I don't get why you choose to argue against non-existent positions. If you just want to have a convo with yourself you can just post without quoting other people.
But for clarification, yes, both the Bundesliga and French league are higher in my estimation than the Eredivisie
I evidently do as you concocted "you want instant glory" out of thin air. When, again, there's a lot of space between "instant glory" and "worst prem campaign ever". But yes, I do think underperforming managers, like anyone else, should be sacked - not that this is in anyway relevant to our conversation, which was about you being dismissive regarding Tuchel's CL and trying to prop up Ten Hag with "two trophies"
Once you stop moving goals posts and pivoting, you'll see that my logic is - if one of the pillars of your criticisms for Tuchel is "the only noteworthy thing to his name is the CL he won with Chelsea... something any manager can do since it's a cup competition." You can't then turn around and say "2 trophies" for Ten Hag, as if we're not aware of what those trophies were. It's comical. Even more so when you compound it by holding Ten Hag in great esteem for his CV (presumably titles with Ajax) and then turn around and are dismissive of Tuchel's titles with PSG.
You randomly started talking about sackings, etc, when that's a moot conversation. Ten Hag is seemingly here to stay.
By the time Klopp left Dortmund he was already one of the best managers in the world and much more accomplished than Ten Hag
You can ascribe whatever meaning you want to it. It is factual. It was our worst prem campaign ever and Ten Hag presided over it.
Well let’s hope now they have decided to keep him and extend his contract, it means they are going to really get what needs to be done to make us competitive again.
if the squad isn’t much different the football won’t be either. One point that might help massively of course is better luck with injuries. Just having Martinez and shaw fit will make a big difference in itself. Getting rid of the bad apples in the squad will show a statement of mentality/attitude that is required.
There is so much to be done, it isn’t all happening in one summer. He needs time as do ineos. They either have to be in it together for the tough slog or not at all.
Neither of them gets a pass. ETH had a good first season mostly because Rashford had an amazing one. And that would be fine if ETH could keep Rashford performing, but since Rashford was absolutelly terrible and in total had 1 good season in 3, that doesn't seem like a good bet for us.
And yet we have seen zero elements of possession based football last season. In fact, totally opposite, vertical, very direct football. What is more relevant? Eric's last two years in England or whatever image we have of his teams from the past?
Based on what? The only difference between him and Ole is ETH has a "reputation" of being a good coach based on the "stories" we have from Ajax, but you can't really say that based on his United days.
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People who criticize Ineo for taking two weeks to do a review clarify the situation with the manager and also the situation with Ashworth and Berrada not being in place already are clearly looking at it from a short term point of view.
Regardless of if the manager decision was announced even before the FA cup final and all, we aren't winning the league in 24/25 and probably not in 25/26 either.
If we're building to peak in say 26/27 season, is taking two weeks to review and evaluate who is the right person considering ETH performance, talking to players, talking to other managers, considering the medical department etc to much time to take.
Is waiting a bit for Ashworth and Berrada, not paying a crazy fee for Ashworth when we'll eventually get him.
I'll rather the slow, measured and calculated approach than going crazy trying to speed everything up. I hope it's the same calculated approach when it comes to signing players and not the sort of approach were we hurriedly signed Ole or play exorbitant fees on players like Casemiro, Antony, Maguire etc.
City waited 3 years to get Pep, Arsenal & Liverpool took a while to put together the teams that could compete in the manner they have with City. Direction is more important than speed.
Regardless of if the manager decision was announced even before the FA cup final and all, we aren't winning the league in 24/25 and probably not in 25/26 either.
If we're building to peak in say 26/27 season, is taking two weeks to review and evaluate who is the right person considering ETH performance, talking to players, talking to other managers, considering the medical department etc to much time to take.
Is waiting a bit for Ashworth and Berrada, not paying a crazy fee for Ashworth when we'll eventually get him.
I'll rather the slow, measured and calculated approach than going crazy trying to speed everything up. I hope it's the same calculated approach when it comes to signing players and not the sort of approach were we hurriedly signed Ole or play exorbitant fees on players like Casemiro, Antony, Maguire etc.
City waited 3 years to get Pep, Arsenal & Liverpool took a while to put together the teams that could compete in the manner they have with City. Direction is more important than speed.
Let him cook
I personally thought we largely played good football in his 1st season, Ronaldo tantrums and Rashford goals aside. The media clearly thought so too, and it's a big reason why many were anticipating his 2nd season - yet were left perplexed with his tactics and management as early as pre-season.
As early as second half of his first season actually, Sabitzer was the first "second #10" he used and that's clearly what he was trying to implement for second part of 22/23 and entire 23/24 campaign.
The fact we played good football only in "first quarter" of his regime is a huge worry as it indicates it had little to do with his coaching, rather getting the right players together. All his ideas from last season prove he's a terrible, inflexible and stubborn coach.
"It's literrally just a group of posters slagging of our manager...". Everything happens for a reason. Under ten Hag the club reached it's worst PL place, including several embarrassing results, degraded key players like Rashford, etc. What to like about him? Nothing. Seriously, this is Manchester United not Brentford.
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It's less pathetic than banning a word to control the discourse.
For me the more relevant thing is the club he's at now and how it has played prior to him . His concern , is how to get from that to his ideal.
The logical way ( to me ) is to look at the players on board and assess how the team score goals . We are clearly a transition side, every oppo coach highlights this .
Do we have to completely disregard that , is it even wise to do so ? or is there a way to shorten the transitions? Instead of winning it on the edge of our box and releasing Rashford ( our favoured modus operandi ) is it possible to want to stop the oppo / win the ball higher and be closer to goal ? It's still a transition ? Klopps best Liverpool , did exactly that . Were they a possession side? Not strictly , but they played in the opponents half more than their own because they won the ball higher consistently .
Vertical / direct does not mean the intention is not to have more possession . Ten hags ajax were vertical , best klopp is vertical .
The evolution of deep transition to higher transition doesn't have to include some weird period of time ( lvg ) where we knock it around the middle aimlessly .. so we can say , aah look possession . That doesn't have to be any part of it .
We can become a more dominant side by focusing on making the area the oppo can play smaller .
So you want to replace ETH with managers you consider in the same tier... in order to start a rebuild all over again? Make it make sense. As far as league standings go, the French and German leagues might be richer, but they are not more competitive, so your argument is bonkers. Winning a title with Ajax is much, much harder (even though they are generally speaking the club with most resources in the division) than winning a title with PSG or Bayern in their respective leagues. Come on, at least you have to admit that if not anything else.
Is he underperforming? 2 trophies in 2 seasons in 3 finals in a club that hasn't won a trophy in 8 years prior to that. Top 3rd finish in the first season, granted disappointing second season but with a heck of a lot problems that were out of ETH's hand. Furthermore I'm not dismissive of Tuchel's CL, I just argue that that is his only real accomplishment in football and putting our faith blindly in a manager that has a record of generally not winning trophies and leaving his clubs in ablaze in 2 seasons at best is just not a good idea. As I said, do you really want a Mourinho 2.0 with not even half of his accomplishments? Might as well just go for Conte if that's the case, he's way more accomplished than Tuchel, and ETH as well.
What goalposts am I moving exactly? You seem to just indulge in non-arguments constantly, afraid of admitting you're wrong. I'm gonna say this for the 99th time. The FA Cup and the league cup isn't the be all end all for our club, but it's a good start for a club that hasn't won shit in almost a decade prior. And I'm not judging ETH on the 2 cups, I'm judging him on his resume as a whole and the spectacular work he has done in 3 clubs prior to taking over United - Bayern II, Utrecht and Ajax. You say I'm dismissive of Tuchel's titles at PSG. Hell yeah I am. Has PSG stopped winning titles prior or after Tuchel? Nope. Has Ajax stopped winning titles prior or after ETH? Yes.
No, he wasn't. In fact people were even claiming he wouldn't hack it in the PL. His stock was absolutely not that high after his last season with Dortmund.
You're the type of guy that watched Barcelona dominate Chelsea for 180 minutes and claims that Chelsea were the better team because they managed to nick a lucky goal with a scoreline of 1-0. No, stats don't paint the full picture, they never have and it's incredibly short-sighted to just rely on them. Again, our treble team won the league with 79 points. We've achieved much higher points since then but the only team I'd argue that could possibly be better is our 2007/2008 team
That's because the crop of managers nowadays isn't really all that decent. I mean just look at the names that have been reported for the United job. He's still upper tier manager, don't get me wrong, but he isn't the type I want managing United and least of all the type I would sack ETH for. If we are to sack ETH, we should be looking for young, progressive managers who can be employed preferably longer than 3 years and who don't leave every job kicking and screaming. Hell, McKenna as a manager is far more preferable to me and excites me more, but I think it's too early and I want to see a little more before taking such a huge gamble.
Yeah, as I said the behaviour of ‘Ten Hag out’ posters has been much more ‘cultish’. Every shred of info is dissected and turned on its head to blame the manager. I don’t want to name names.
A ‘cultits’ would not show a shred of nuance or acknowledgement of the other side’s opinion. Show me one poster supporting Ten Hag who has done that?
It was a shiit season, and Erik could have been sacked without anyone really complaining about it.
Alternatively, after the review and the info coming out, there is a strong case that Ten Hag deserves to keep going.
Let’s remember support for Ten Hag among the fan base is about 80%.
I think it’s best to try and ban this stuff, it really doesn’t help with discussions. Imagine there was a counter pejorative nickname:
Simpletonists: fans who are so enraged against ETH, they can’t actually accept, discuss or acknowledge any reasons why a United fan might want to see ETH get another season.
They are particularly over confident in their opinions to the point that anybody who doesn’t share exactly how they see things is accused of:
- being a c*****t
- accepting mediocrity
- being part of the problem the club has suffered
- being stupid or blind or a rival fan
- not understanding stats - XG, shots against us, midfield dissapears
- thinking one game is the basis of why people aren’t gunning for him being sacked
I’m sure there’s more in that but does that look reasonable to you? If I keep responding with “those simpletonists really don’t understand the nuances of football and the extended variables required to Create a winning culture at the club”, would that make the forum more progressive ?
When people say “the c******t” , it makes me think of the people queing up for Sarah Palin rallies getting mocked by comedians as they give the stupidest responses to serious questions. I can’t take a poster serious when they use the word c******t anymore then I’d expect somebody to take me serious by constantly responding to them by calling them a simpletonist.
There is actually no objectively wrong position to have on the manager. This is the biggest thing that annoys me when you see posters acting like there is only one way to interpret his tenure.
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We can do many things, but let's not pretend like any of those elements of control are incorporated in our style/setup to defend Ten Hag. Again, the fact someone tells me he used to play different football at Ajax means very little to me.
Quality control
How can you tell a simpletonist from a c.ultist?
A simpletonist isn't busy pre-preparing a list of excuses in June for why the manager is allowed to fail again next season.
A simpletonist isn't busy pre-preparing a list of excuses in June for why the manager is allowed to fail again next season.
It's quite clear that he wants the team to play a certain way rather than maximize short term results. The fact that our players are not suite to his vision mean that we inevitably have to take our share of beatings in the meantime, but as Berrada, Ashworth and Wilcox will do whatever they can to bring him the players he needs to fulfil his vision at a higher level, performances will improve. I don't think he's the type of coach that will easily deviate from the path once taken, we are likely going to see same approach and tactics next year but hopefully with the players that can execute it better (hopefully picked by ETH or at least with his clear approval).
It is not all or nothing. We have players for fast transitions, so always pressing high with a high back line would not benefit us.
Instead, we should adapt continuously to get the best opportunities to create chances. If opponent pushes up high, we will utilize the space in behind.
We do have to be more compact and solve the midfield gap issue. For that we need a couple new players and move on a few who are unwilling/unable to step up.
I do think Ten Hag wants us to eventually be dominant in all phases of play, but this doesn‘t mean you hog the ball just for the sake of it. That should only happen to kill a game.
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Degraded Rashford? ...mmm . Interesting take. Any Idea how he managed to do that?
If i recall he joined Chelsea mid way, similar to Di Matteo who won a UCL and FA cup, so is he a better manager than TUchel?
Tuchel is good at rescuing a season, he is rubbish at building a team. In seasons where he has a full season, its only PSG where he has won the league, everywhere else he's been crap.
He is probably the first manager in 20 years not to win anything at Bayern this season. Coincidence the more money, the longer he gets the worse he gets?
I mean he cant even last more than 2 years anywhere before getting sacked.
It's not discourse when people are making generalisations and throwing labels around though.
You can disagree with each other without this type of nonsense. It adds nothing to the conversation and lowers the level of the discourse. I tend to avoid player performance and manager threads because there's a tendency for hot takes from the most entrenched on either side and genuine discussion can be difficult to find.
C’mon, you’re better than this…
I pop into this thread once in a while and it never ceases to be more inane than the last time.
Yeah I thought it was clear last season that he's learning on the job. Hopefully he's learnt well otherwise we'll be in limbo come November.
When EtH started at United it was very close to how United played (successfully) under Ole: Not exactly a low block, but a compact team in the middle of the pitch that was able to launch counter attacks or similar attacks from possession. By moving to a much higher press EtH reduced the space in behind of the oppositions defence - which is the space Rashford thrives when he can run into it. The changing tactics resulted in reducing the area of the pitch Rashford excels in, it's no wonder that Rashford's performances dropped.
This is a bit oversimplified and I don't think it's the only reason, but I do think that this tactical shift actively went against Rashford's strengths. If you like you can call that "degrading" him, from someone the tactics is optimized for to someone who just has to play a role in a system that isn't his best.
You can say that after 5, maybe 10, maybe even 20 games of poor performances/results. But at some point where you see poor performances (forget results) week in week out for a full season, you have to call it what it is - just bad ideas or bad implementation.
It's fine to use this excuse of "not having the players to fulfil his vision", but we are at a point that you need to be absolutely sure that his vision is the right one, otherwise we'll be wasting money for players that work in a system that is not effective in the first place. I have ZERO trust in Ten Hag vision after last season. The fact the review took so long also indicates that INEOS are not so convinced either, so it's very unlikely that ETH will get any saying in transfers. But if that is the case, why continuing with such a stubborn and inflexible manager?
Another question is who actually benefited from that switch in our team? Can we agree on a single player that looks better in this new system?
I think we reached that point when we opted to keep him and give him a new contract. This is why contrary to most on here I do not believe that he will be at any risk of getting fired next season even if results are poor. The club has opted to back him and should go full length to ensure he has all the tools and resources to get us where he wants us to be, and given how much has to be done before we reach that point I do not believe this can be expected to be completed in 1-2 years.
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