Honestly, I dont think he can finish lower than 5th and expect to keep his job. Regardless of how the season pans out, he has to get top 4 minimum
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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Honestly, I dont think he can finish lower than 5th and expect to keep his job. Regardless of how the season pans out, he has to get top 4 minimum
Good post adressing an important issue, but aren't you generalizing fans who are of the opinion that keeping ETH is/was the wrong decision here?
I guess I'm one of those you've put in the simpletonist bracket, as I have a shared my opinion on ETH in here and have spewed out pages up and pages down of stats, underlying numbers and arguments in here to support that opinion.
Discussions on internet forums tend to be extremely polarized and trying to undermine people with a different opinion by namecalling or generalization is one of the things you see a lot of, and that I'm not a fan of. I do however think sharing opinions and trying to back up your arguments with stats or comparisons to others is a fair way to share your opinion. I admit I can get frustrated when people reply with a "one line" answer (often just repeating their original stand) to a post filled with stats or arguments making it obvious that they haven't even read through or tried to have good look at what has been presented in the post. That's on me of course.
I'd love to see someone make a balanced and good case for why keeping ETH was the right decision and why we should expect him take us to the next level next season. I'd also love to change my current expectations for next season to something more positve, because right now I've already written next season off and I don't expect ETH to be here come March next season.
Namecalling and attacking the poster in stead of the post is also wrong 100% of the time.
With or without ETH, the next 2 years are rebuild and restructuring that means the priority isn’t “squeeze into top 4”, it’s “get to the point we are properly challanging for the league/CL in 3 years.
Id be thinking that in 3 years time we should be able to properly benchmark ourselves against our rivals. The last 11 years , it’s been absolutely clear that the club has been so backwards and incompetent well beyond managers, which made comparisons with city/pool redundant.
I agree with the doubters of ETH that last year was mostly a mess and chaotic. But I feel INEOs decision to retain him has multiple considerations applied, including that they believe there was some logic in ETH decisions but more importantly a roadmap for United , with ETH, that makes sense for the longer term progression.
Maybe keeping him is a mistake, maybe he will not succeed or things will get worse. I guess I don’t see the big risk because I’m also assuming that the club now actually has a longer term plan that should leave us with more balanced squads and replacement managers who shouldn’t require massive rebuilds.
Intuitively it’s tempting to agree with you here, cause it sounds sound (couldn’t resist). Thinking about it more closesly, I’m not so sure, though: Both eye test and numbers show that we started off like under Ole, but became much better at high press/high recapture during the first half of the season, and - importantly - that this happened before Rashford really got rolling. His most effective period, from november to february, coincided with when we were best at reducing the space behind the opposition’s defence. Before that he struggled and we struggled more generally, and after that our press faltered at times, we were played low more often, which made sense given injuries/fatigue on key players, but you, or me at least, would also expect those game situations to favorize Rashford’s game. But he dried up a bit around that time too. This season, high press haven’t function from almost get go, and Rashford neither.
Why this is, I’m not certain, there may be other and councidental factors, but the correlations are pretty clear, and undermine the intuitive expectation heavily, IMO.
Its quite clear why they have kept him. I am not sure how much more balanced you require this?
1. Manchester United structure is not in place - Berrada and Ashworth are not in place, which means they cannot plan long term until those 2 are settled in the club, so making a rash managerial decision could cost 10m to sack Ten Hag, 2/3m to hire new manager, 10m to sack said new manager.
2. Limited choice - It has been clear that they looked at various mangers, from Tuchl to Marco Silva and were not impressed by any. Why hire a manager when you are not impressed by them?
3. Trophies - Clubs / managers are judged on trophies and league position. He has 2 trophies in 2 seasons, record speaks for itself.
4. Squad - The way we want to operate now is to have a good squad irrespective of the manager, so reglardless who comes in, with this squad they will struggle anyway, so why not spend the money on getting the squad right rather than a manager that can give us short term lift and no trophies?
There hasn’t been an extension signed yet. I can’t see this being easy either as according to reports Ineos want the manager to be more a head coach than a manager, with less influence over signings.
So basically it looks like they have kept the best of a bad bunch and not really impressed just keeping him, otherwise why look at other managers if they were so sure about him?
I don't think Ineos should compromise on what they want. Perhaps he could be a great head coach but if he's not willing to be flexible then we should just agree he leaves at the end of his contract and we get in a replacement for 2025/26.
With 6 point after 6 games, he should be under pressure!
They weren't sure of him, it is actually quite obvious.
INEOS took over the club and decided that they will review the structure, they did that. Generally, they want their own man in charge, you can look back at clubs that have been taken over for evidence.
Obviously, when a manager underperforms, his position will be looked at, this is regardless of who the owner is, finished 8th would have made them nervous about going forward with him.
You cannot discount a cup, I know many on here are all of a sudden "we are manutd we should finish top 4 without a trophy" He has shown he can win at United.
Fan sentiment - there was clear backing that the fans were behind him, not the Caf but match going fans, who kept singing his name in final games and the final. The Athletic done a poll which had 75% to have him staying.
They also understood under the previous structure, its difficult for managers to operate in, the evidence is there for last 11 years. '
So why not see how he fares with better structure around him, he has shown he can win cups and get top 4 in the first season.
What sort of new mental gymnastics is this?
Which I think is just complete BS, else why go for Dan Ashworth when he himself has said the manager has to be involved.
That's fair.
Cups, yes. I'm impressed with the FA cup win for sure.
But in the league, he's only shown he can get top 4 if Liverpool, Chelsea and Spurs all have shit seasons and Rashford is on fire.
Hmm does is such an odd thing people say. When was the last time Spurs won anything? that they are in this? Did Chelsea finish top 4 this season? Did Spurs?
I mean we can say Arsenal only competed because they had no injuries, otherwise they wouldn't have competed. There are so many different variables to this.
How about Ten Hag been here for 2 years and him having no ST. When he came he had Cavani, Ronaldo, Martial. Then was given Weghorst and a 21 year old Hojlund?
I don’t want to bracket anybody anything but we all do it to fair.. I hate people labelling me something because I have one viewpoint on one topic. Particularly happens in emotional discussions, I find in general people are really bad at open dialogue when they take a “if you don’t agree with my interpretation of this thing you are (insert some derogatory or insulting word)”. What is really frustrating is when you try to elaborate on a view and people ignore it so they can keep you stuck in the bracelet that suits them.
As I said, there is no right/wrong viewpoint to have regarding whether the club should keep/sack ETH. With that, there is no argument that can say why it was right/wrong to keep him.
What you have to ask and what any objective observer would do, is what are the reasons why it might of made sense to keep him. This is where people struggle. Instead of doing this, they revert to “only reason is cause they don’t know what they are doing or don’t see what I see” sort of sentiments. I can come up with plenty of reasons why he should be sacked or kept, I don’t think the answer is perfectly obvious given where the club is at the moment.
The only objective stance on this is to be unsure on his position. That doesn’t mean you can’t be unsure of even leaning that it’s a huge risk.
Many people have made balanced posts on why it might make sense to retain him. I’ve made posts, quite extensive , but like you say, you get one word snarky responses or they pick one element and focus on that ignoring all else.
It looks like it comes down to the fact that since ETH has been at the club; it’s been a mess. He joined a mess, has had to work with uncertainty over his position since the club was up for sale, had ridiculous amount of player issues/dramas in a really short period of time and the injuries on top of it.
I feel a lot of people have been taking a “yeh but..” approach that is really sidestepping the probable reason why he’d been kept. It is very difficult to quantify how much all the injuries/drama/dysfunction has been playing with the management of the team. Perhaps it doesn’t explain what we got last season, perhaps it’s some, perhaps it’s a lot of the problem. We don’t know, but many presume “it’s not an excuse” and they quote one thing from another club with none of the combined issues our club has had for a decade, as if that proves a point.
Going back to your stats discussion. I wasn’t saying stats don’t matter, I was saying they don’t categorically prove “that manager is not good enough” in isolation. If we looked at the stats of most league winning teams outside of city, the season after they win the league, I’d say they paint a very interesting picture. A lot of league winners struggle the next season.
New United managers have been getting a decent bounce, one good season and it all falls apart, we don’t win leagues but I feel there’s multiple layers of issues that can include players realising the squad isn’t good enough to react peak levels and/or club not being able to build on momentum which can demoralise the squad (like when Dalot/fred were bought after we finished 2nd).
Why is that relevant? Because it’s not necessarily a reflection that a manager is not good enough, it’s a reflection that for numerous reasons, the squad has struggled to maintain standards. The manager can be part of that, but we’ve seen seasons where league winners have fallen apart. Leicester, Chelsea, even Liverpool.
Oddly enough, after Liverpools league win the next One where they only got 11 more points then our paltry 57 this season. The season before ETH took over , pool played as many games as United in ETH first season and they looked bad the season after.
That’s what some of us think about United who played similar amount of games as pool the next season in ETH first season , but also had a World Cup squeezed in between. A lot of EPL teams have been having injury issues , but a lot of them didn’t also play as many games as United, having multiple player dramas while the clib was for sale leaving everybody at the club clueless to the direction it was going.
How do you think senior ambitious players felt with so much ambiguity over the club and manager ? Most felt new owners will want their own man, so ETH position has been on the block since 6 months into his reign at the club.
Does all this make our weird formation/form/performances ok or understandable ? No, it doesn’t , but it adds more context to “we concede loads of shots and play awful football” that really assumes United has had a period like every other club and the only real issue is a manager who hasn’t been able to get us playing decent football. He’s had so much sh*te to be handling or navigating, it’s not easy to say for certain that none of that has impacted his ability to do what he is capable of doing. Regardless of anything else, trying to create a positive/winning squad culture could not of been easy.
So it looks like INEOs reviewed a lot , including the awful football and felt that the mitigating circumstances were extremely relevant. Coupled with that, they felt that where the club is right now, that replacing ETH is unfeasible or just not required for numerous reasons that could include the alternative options.
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Dont know how many times I'll have to hammer this point home - Ineos wanted to replace ETH with Tuchel and Tuchel didn't like what they were selling. This is the obvious conclusion to what's been reported and the only reason ETH is still in work.
This is your problem . You don't know that .
It could be this.
Ineos considered Tuchel and didn't like what he was selling .
Your assumptions are your own .
I could play your game . Here's an example .
As new owners , Ineos conducted an interview process to find the best manager for the job . The current manager and several others were up for consideration .
After the interview process was complete , it was concluded that the best candidate was already in place .
Takeovers in business can often involve this process .
Young Kobbie praising big Ezza in the press conference today:
Manchester United midfielder Kobbie Mainoo on club manager Erik Ten Hag: "Happy to be building with him, got two trophies hopefully there's more to come. Peace of mind to know what manager we have when we return.
"I'm so grateful for him, he put so much trust in me to play in the team. I can't thank him enough."
Manchester United midfielder Kobbie Mainoo on club manager Erik Ten Hag: "Happy to be building with him, got two trophies hopefully there's more to come. Peace of mind to know what manager we have when we return.
"I'm so grateful for him, he put so much trust in me to play in the team. I can't thank him enough."
His work with Mainoo and Garnacho was obviously a huge plus point in his favor in keeping his job- i'd add Dalot to that list as well even though he's been here for a long time.
I mean you can keep hammering but if I keep saying I slept with Margot Robbie, doesn't mean it is true.
if you can show me any sort of proof or evidence that suggests Tuchel didn't like what they were selling, they didn't like what he had to offer.
It boils down to whether you believe Ineos pr or Tuchel pr.
Let's get on with it. ETH is the best manager available for us right now. I think a lot of us supports him to be the guy to clear out the dead woods
Very little proof available I think...
https://x.com/FabrizioRomano/status/1799822667803169091
This came as a surprise after Tuchel previously stating that he would love to manage again in the PL. Only reasonable explanation for him pulling out would be that he didn't think it was the right offer for him.
Last year we got 5 points in our first 5 comparable fixtures (excluding Southampton as they weren’t in the league and I think they are better than relegated teams - we drew against them the last time we played them at OT in PL), so 6 points would not be tragic. Bottom line is we play Liverpool and Spurs, as well as travel to Brighton and Palace in our first 6 games, on top of tricky games against Fulham and Southampton. People should not be expecting miracles.
As to why Rashford started underperforming (again):
has probably little to do with tactics. He missed chances that he put away the year before. Someone could do a stat analysis to either corroborate or disprove that.
Rashford got a new PR agency in September 2023. The same as that of Sancho and Varane.
Ten Hag fell out with both Sancho and Varane at the beginning of the season, and Rashford had disciplinary issues a few times.
As with Sancho, the problem is probably between the ears.
What do you do when you are out of form? Sulk, or work hard? Rashford does one of those two things only.
It is best if he looks for a new challenge.
It's not. Certain words kill the discussion and they are messed with to encourage less dismissive mudslinging. Insulting people who disagree with you because they disagree with you is ridiculous.
Get a grip. Nobody's feelings are hurt. It's just not conducive to debate.
Than you must be living in lala land then.
When you have people like Ragnick come out and say that the players openly disobey his instructions and refuse to press and then he advocates for an open heart surgery. When people like Ole say that he walked in an already established player power structure of players putting in the minimal effort in order to earn a wage who shrank at the possibility of becoming a captain, hence him giving it to an outsider(i.e. Maguire). Or when Ronaldo has said on multiple times that a lot of his team mates lack ambition and called them out on it. Or when ETH is saying in multiple post match conferences that players aren't following his instructions. All of these people are crazy conspiracy theorists, since there is no such thing as a rotten culture at Man United according to you.
And thanks to Woodward's/Arnold's economics where players get contract extensions no matter how poorly the perform, that also clearly doesn't affect dressing room morale. Or the fact that we overpay on wages even for average players, that also doesn't set a bad precedent amongst our players. Tis just the manager's fault.
And out of curiosity, since a lot of people tell me that we need to have similar standards to Real Madrid. How long do you think they would put up with his antics? Disinterested body language, strolling around the pitch? How long would Pep put up with the likes of Rashford? Or Klopp? That guy in his high pressing system would eat him alive. Or do you think Sir Alex would be ok with the way Rashford plays? You know, the guy that booted out Beckham for losing his focus.
Or are you one of those people who think the manager hAs tOO MoTivaTe the players for them to put in the minimum effort required to be a top athlete that represents Manchester United.
It’s ancient history now so no new thread is necessary. But it would interesting to know, which is impossible because here we are, whether ten Hag would still have his job if the Coventry goal were allowed to stand by virtue of a shoelace not being an element that’s deemed offside. Probably not.
Fine margins.
I hope they put in a termination clause that allows us to get rid of him for a smaller payment if we don't make EL, CL etc. Or just a flat termination clause of 10m or whatever. We don't want to be stuck paying off his entire contract if we give him a 3y extension.
Quality control
What if the discussion is so stupid to begin with? You don't see mudslinging in any other threads. It's only a certain few who need this special protection. It's like qanon forcing people to accept their opinions and properly 'debate' them.
If you put the sequence of events before anyone without a dog in the fight they would come to the same conclusion I did, that it's far more likely Tuchel and Ineos failed to agree on things like recruitment, control and responsibilities. RdZ didnt get anywhere in negotiations with Ineos, and they are two similarly strong characters who dont take shit from owners.
Put simply, if Tuchel agreed with how Ineos want to go about things, he'd be our manager now. Remains to be seen how hard ETH will fight to keep his power, might end up the same way as those Tuchel negotiations.
Mate, I just said there were a lot of problems that Ten Hag can’t be blamed for…. Seems pretty nuanced to me.
If you really look at the history of the Ten Hag discussion on this thread, most of the Caf, including myself, were optimistic that Ten Hag could deliver the goods this season. However, as we fell out of the CL, last in our group, conceding 15 goals, and didn’t look much better in the league, there was a rising group that were uncomfortable with his tactics.
The Ten Hag inners were quick to defend with many excuses, some valid. But even the vociferous ones like yourself were pretty silent after bad results. After the Palace 4-0 drubbing, almost all conceded that whatever Ten Hag was trying to do wasn’t working.
If the reports are true, that was when Wilcox stepped in and told the coaching staff that we needed to revert to a more conservative approach for the last few matches. And, lo and behold, we got some results.
I’ve read all of the reporting / post mortem and to me, it really didn’t change my opinion on Ten Hag. The reports of players ignoring his instructions were pretty isolated and, perhaps with the exception of Ronaldo, not really verifiable. The bad cop, bad cop approach to players like Casemiro and Varane was, if you ask me, a bit ignorant on Ten Hag’s part. To me, he came off as a poor communicator and tactician wanting to wield power with an iron fist. It’s hard to execute tactics if you don’t understand them…
You can read the reports through an ‘in” or “out” prism and not change your opinion on Ten Hag. Clearly, there was smoke because we started discussions with several managers before deciding to stick with Ten Hag.
The great thing about this is that we’ll find out eventually if Ten Hag can get us back to competing, no, wait, winning major titles like the CL and the league.
Yep, that just shows how far our club has fallen over the last few years.
There was a time when managers would jump at the chance to manage this club but now even out of work managers like Tuchel and De Zerbi wont take the job.
Ten Hag lost his right to have an influenced on signings when he pushed for Antony, if he wants the glory, let him say he had the final say to the press, but the reality needs to be that it's not his call.
I haven't seen much of Tuchel PR to say he turned United down. Considering he wanted to manage in the PL, it makes little sense.
Anyway, regardless of who you believe, imo if they were impressed by Tuchel, they would have sat down further and convince him.
Lets say he didn't like what United had to offer? It is one of the only PL big clubs that will take him now, I cant see City, Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool taking him, so he would have known its slim pickings for a top club. Makes no sense.
It's the discussion that is being protected. Not posters.
You're comparing the idea that ETH is acceptable as a United manager to QAnon, and complaining that arguing against this is stupid. Really?
Actually, United did already switch to being a high-press side last season. Or anyway, for a good part of the season, the press-related stats were very good (among the league's top if I remember correctly), and much improved compared to the previous season.
I thought football was supposed to be a fun interest. Wouldn't you rather want to look forward to hopefully a good transfer period and some positive change come the next season?
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