Exactly. This alone debunks the argument.
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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Additionally the tactical issues were on show when he did have his first choice back line against Wolves at home and Newport County away.
They cut through us.
Congrats on naming players where all but one were surrounded by quality players around them. The only one that wasn't was on the end on massive thumpings himself (Webster). Dier mainly played in a back 5 and was dropped like a sack of potatoes the minute a manager with a back 4 preference came in.
But Dier also became first choice in Münchens back four again.
I named players that are not physically quick but had no problem holding a high line under instruction from their head coach. Or is it just our centre backs that can’t listen.
Edit: By the way Varane and Martinez played together this season. The same issues occurred. Completely negates this whole “personnel” argument. It’s weak.
Well that’s what we all want. I want ETH to be a great manager for us. The trouble is I’ve just sat through an entire season of diabolical managerial decisions.
You named players who were good on the ball and surrounded by quality in a possession orientated set up rather than a transitional direct one - bar Matip, who was not slow so it's weird you threw him in.
These players also had consistency in partnerships and in left back throughout the season.
Tell me how many games Varane and Martinez played together with a left back this season.
Yes, maybe Bundasliga level opponents are his level.
You just listed on the ball traits for an off the ball discussion?
Being good on the ball and surrounded by quality possession based players does not = being effective off the ball in rest defence squeezing up the pitch in unison. You don’t need to be Micky Van de Ven for it to work. It’s just nonsense.
Martinez and Varane played alongside Luke Shaw in the games vs Wolves and Newport County.
Both games showed that his first choice back line and his front 6 were following Erik Ten Hag’s instructions to the letter. Leaving those huge gaps in midfield that we saw throughout the whole season, regardless of personnel.
Yes, Laurie Whitwell is a tier 1, reputable journalist. But that part of the club briefing in The Athletic article smelt like making up excuses for the dismal tactical set up seen all season, by throwing professional players under the bus.
Evans and Maguire have followed instructions their whole career but all of a sudden they have no ears and brains? How did they make it out of their academies!
Anyway, we will not agree on this. I’m very interested to see if Branthwaite or Yoro or De Ligt will suddenly lose the ability to follow instructions for a whole league season.
You've given listed a list that was 2/3rds Pep players surrounded by generational or borderline world class talent in the B squad let alone the first XI as some sort of "gothcya" moment.
And no, I didn't. When I talk about slow defenders, I don't mean purely acceleration. I mean whether they are slow on the turn, and also slow/ponderous on the ball. Maguire for example is slow in almost every facet. Evans is at least quicker in the way he passes out from the back, he's not caught in two minds nearly as much as say, Maguire. But Evans is on his last legs and extremely slow in general running let alone acceleration.
I never once said you need to be Micky Van De Ven. You just need to be comfortable playing high up the pitch, which Wan Bissaka and a combination of Evans/Maguire were not. If Shaw was there with Dalot on the other side, its feasible that one of Maguire or Evans would have been able to operate higher knowing they have some security behind them. If it was both as a midfield partnership - maybe not.
So hardly any games. Thanks. If I'm not mistaken it was revealed that Martinez was still carrying an injury at that point, too.
They didn't throw anyone under the bus - its a weird accusation on the players. I don't blame seasoned slower players for retreating into old habits. It's very very tough to shake seasoned players in the twilight or end of their careers to get into new methods. The other player who was consistently retreating (and I saw this many times live) was Wan Bissaka. Again, I think he's just not very good tactically nor positionally, and its a gaping flaw in his game rather than a professionalism issue.
You're painting a picture like they revolted. They very clearly didn't (barring Sancho/Ronaldo of course).
Lets agree to disagree.
Fair play mate. I completely disagree with it in my opinion and the fact that we saw the same defensive set up with Evans and Maguire vs Martinez and Varane highlights my point.
This is what Ten Hag and his coaching staff were training the team to do during the week regardless of what centre back or full back combination played.
Sure. And Arsenal.
Yeah slow players are capable of good games in a 4. It's sort of taking away from the initial, more general point I've made.
It's your call to disagree with it. Seemed fairly obvious to be otherwise for me and a few others. And now the Athletic have been briefed what we thought.
But let's draw a line and forget about it.
I did read it and this does remind me of LvG with the younger players seeming to thrive and absorb instructions (probably because they don't have massive egos yet) and they are seen as the manager's players. It does seem as though there's a core of players that are EtH's such as Martinez, Hojlund, Mainoo, Garnacho, Onana, Antony, Dalot (signed under Jose but easily at his best under the current manager) and others which are kind of a mishmash of different ideas from previous managers.
The Sancho stuff is just ridiculous. What a terrible signing.
Ten Hag would probably do well with a smaller club like Brighton.
Apparently ETH will be on Dutch tv as a pundit for the England tonight.
Just sell most of the senior players and replace with young eager players who wants to impress, we will do just fine. Sancho, Antony, Rashford, Maguire, Lindeloft, McTominay, Casemiro, Eriksen, Shaw and AWB can leave. We will slowly plug the holes and eventually we will have the youngest team in EPL.
Brighton is too technical for him, he'd be sacked in a few months. He'd fit better at Stoke City. Play hard, with heart, run around a lot, we go again, etc.
Wherever has the most naive fans would be where he'd do best.
Who briefed the Athletic?
It's not an argument mate, it's just a fact that I don't know how any player would adapt to playing a different way with the right coaching. I don't think Maguire would be good in that role for what it's worth.
Ignore? No mate I'm just basing my opinion on what I've seen over the course of an entire season of football as opposed to what someone said in an article.
It might seem more plausible but if it was then it raises more quesitons than answers. It means Ten Hag either.
A. Instructed the players to play a high line, they didn't follow instructions (for whatever reason) regardless of which of the 6 centrebacks we have in the squad who played. And Ten Hag didn't say/do anything about this.
or
B. He accepted they wouldn't or couldn't play a high defensive line, was OK with them playing deep but decided to plough on with pushing the rest of the team higher up the pitch exposing the back line in virtually every game.
I don't know which scenario I like less to be honest. And I don't mean this as just a criticism solely of Ten Hag, A and B reflects poorly on everyone at the club to varying degrees, upper management, manager and players. Either scenario it highlights of much of a mess the club is in.
The Athletic corroborate their sources very well - and if you read the article they reference direct sources to coaching staff and also cite an actual in-game example as an illustration - against Liverpool in the FA Cup after a corner where Ten Hag shouted at Lindelof-Varane to stay at the half way line and they immediately retreated. He showed visible anger at that time too.
If your insinuation is that the brief to Athletic came from Ten Hag's side, it just cements mine and a few other's point that he instructed the players to be stationed higher and they failed to do it.
You can only adapt so much for a role you're not suited for. If you cant play in a high line you can't play in a high line. It's fine, defenders are just suited to certain styles.
As am I - except this article supports my view on the situation and has direct briefs from the coaching staff. So we're in a position where me and some others have said he's not trying to have a seas gap between defence and midfield by design of his own tactics, and others are claiming he has and he's a fraud. Then we get an Athletic brief (not the Daily Star, but the best football source you can probably get) that supports the former argument, and we have posters saying "nah I like my view better". Fair enough, I guess.
It's this, but Licha was injured throughout the year, Lindelof needing surgery being in and out, Maguire with 2-3 extended periods out, Evans needing to play 4x more than we would have liked - and he had to chop and change CB combinations 30 odd times. This makes it very difficult to get the continuity in to help cement the system he wanted. If you read the Athletic article, the likes of Varane and Casemiro also didn't support his views of pressing and working in a system. A system I might remind, was instructed by the higher ups at the time to implement on the team. Couple those 2 with the bad eggs of Sancho and Ronaldo - it makes it generally and uphill task to get your instructions followed across the board.
It's not this.
Is Ajax a less technical club than Brighton?
I genuinely feel some posters are so intent on criticism, they often don't think before they post.
Without Overmars, ETH will fail at Ajax too, they will probably sack him if he finishes 8th with Ajax.
So he can coach technical football?
Let's sign players who actually stay fit and have a better synergy with the modern proactive pressing transitional side that we're trying to build then
What does that even mean? He absolutely dominated the Dutch league with Ajax but according to you all of his trophies should be attributed to Overmars?
He had a significantly better team than everyone else
And he still won the league every year.
These lunatics don't care about facts. They just want to fling feces.
Also compared to the team he knocked out in the CL?
The year they reached the Semi's they played FC Bayern, SL Benfica, and AEK Athens in the group stage then Real Madrid, Juventus, and Spurs in the knockout rounds.
Ten Hag is on Dutch television right now and just confirmed everything that has been written in the papers.
ETH says on Dutch TV INEOS flew to Ibiza that they reviewed other coaches as well and told him he was the best candidate afterwards and started negotiations for a new contract with him there.
What is this?
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