I get the high line issue due to slow defenders. But not the dominating football. The players under ETH don't move into space to receive a pass it isn't drummed into them. It's wishful thinking, but we'll see I guess.
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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Bang on.
The failure to move on players that managers didn’t want has been a joke.
Mourinho knew that Martial, Pogba and Shaw weren’t good enough or had a bad attitude. Yet he got overruled on football matters by Joel Glazer and Woodward!
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The article confirms what a lot suspected. I’d said the way we were defending felt like what was convenient for the players rather than our long term strategy because you could see we wanted this higher press but there wasn’t the confidence in the back line so they dropped to box defending which is what they could feel comfortable doing.
I think profiles of players needs to drastically changed particularly at CB and DM for this to work and it would appear that United know this too based on that article.
Damning to see what has happened this season but encouraging that in spite of this we’ve still managed to come away with a trophy and hopefully a plan for the season that improves us.
I think profiles of players needs to drastically changed particularly at CB and DM for this to work and it would appear that United know this too based on that article.
Damning to see what has happened this season but encouraging that in spite of this we’ve still managed to come away with a trophy and hopefully a plan for the season that improves us.
ETH is clearly to blame for most of it as we seen in the FA cup final that he can organise a team to be compact but the players shouldn’t get a free pass. They’re equally as bad as they might not be able to listen to instructions or follow them. We see ETH all the time shouting on the touchline to players that either aren’t pressing or in the wrong positions. Also players can easily up their game when theirs a trophy up for grabs. They don’t have the mentality to play well for 30+games a season.
Agree with a lot of this.
Also, there's something genuinely crazy about starting with Rice and ending with Mount. How does that make any sense at all? It's like there's a generic box 'midfielder' that they try and tick, without any consideration of the type of midfield player required.
There's a difference between reviewing internally and and going to talk to possible candidates.
INEOS had months to have informal chats with managers but only seemed to start doing it in a very rush way once Chelsea sacked Pochettino and there was a possibility any manager we might want would already go there.
There didn't seem to be anything too organized there.
Is it really that unfathomable that they had doubts over ETH, thought about replacing him and that this is way they explored other options?
It's a reason that can partly (not fully) explain our bad season.
It's definitely not a good enough reason for us not having a clear style of play two years into his tenure.
100%
The issues with space in midfield where there last season post the League Cup final, that with Martinez, Varane and a much better version of Casemiro.
The same thing happening for 50 games in a row no matter the combination of players used isn't exactly a strong defense for Ten Hag.
The same thing happening for 50 games in a row no matter the combination of players used isn't exactly a strong defense for Ten Hag.
There you go again, no mention of the manager, just the players. I’ll add also any manager that’s not able to do it can go try his luck elsewhere.
It’s amazing how after watching a full season of what we saw people are excusing EtH for the mess we saw on the pitch.
The issue isn’t that we had a bad league campaign, the issue is that it was historically bad. Fans aren’t that unreasonable that we wouldn’t expect to perform worse with the injuries we had and loss of form for others. However there is no excuse for being as bad as we were last year.
Right from preseason and the first game against Wolves, the tone was set for how the season would look. That is absolutely a coaching problem. Blaming the players is one of the most dishonest things I’ve seen on here.
If we play poorly next season no doubt the same posters will have their excuses lined up and ready to point fingers all over.
Does anyone seriously believe that if we had De Zerbi, Postecoglou or Glasner as our coach last season that they wouldn’t have made the team play in their style.
Similarly fs we had Dyche or Marco Silva we wouldn’t be a more structured side off the ball.
I’ve never heard of a coach completely fail to implement their style of play two years in a job because of a squad
I’m not even saying that these managers would be great or wouldn’t have poor results too but I don’t believe for a second with continuous coaching they wouldn’t represent the styles of these managers. Sarri had Chelsea playing his way and that was a team built for Conte’s style. It wasn’t a good watch but it was a Sarri team. De Zerbi plays a high line and out from the back with fecking Dunk so I don’t want to hear anything about players not suiting styles.
It is a complete failure on EtH’s part to not be able to coach players to get what he wants.
Similarly fs we had Dyche or Marco Silva we wouldn’t be a more structured side off the ball.
I’ve never heard of a coach completely fail to implement their style of play two years in a job because of a squad
I’m not even saying that these managers would be great or wouldn’t have poor results too but I don’t believe for a second with continuous coaching they wouldn’t represent the styles of these managers. Sarri had Chelsea playing his way and that was a team built for Conte’s style. It wasn’t a good watch but it was a Sarri team. De Zerbi plays a high line and out from the back with fecking Dunk so I don’t want to hear anything about players not suiting styles.
It is a complete failure on EtH’s part to not be able to coach players to get what he wants.
Ten Hag fits in stylistically, and is showing the right attitude. So no, give him the players that will do what he asks.
Have you seen Germany press yesterday?
You are obviously biased pro Ten Hag and won't listen to any other logic, maybe because you are Dutch.
Sure I am, but I’m not blind to the problems last season. Neither are 80% of the fans and the MU leadership, and they still support Ten Hag.
I could say you are obviously anti-Ten Hag.
Watching the game yesterday, I’m seeing Germany press with an intensity that we have rarely seen at MU last season.
We know Ten Hag wants to press and was instructed to do so as part of a MU playing strategy.
So, do you blame Ten Hag for the half-hearted pressing we have seen some of our forwards do? If one or two don’t commit, it has a ripple effect through the whole team.
What are you saying? I'm sure, a majority of the modern day managers want to press, but it's about whether they can implement it or not. I'd love for him to be able to implement it properly, but so far, ETH hasn't with any bit of consistency. So a good part of the blame has to be on him (and yes the other good part of the blame could be on the players, but its still the manager's job to get them playing your way; and if you can't with the players, drop them or adapt until you have the players that can)
Worse, he's American with a recent obsession with his culture.
Is there any talk of him inheriting new backroom staff? He clearly needs help getting his ideas across. It would be a smart move from the club.
I’m sure there’s a highly rated coach out in the market.
I’m sure there’s a highly rated coach out in the market.
That’s one of the issues: competition for places. We could not drop Rashford most of the time, he had to fill in for Hojlund and Antony for example. Amad was injured as well and Forson not good enough yet.
Besides that, you need every player to buy in, and that has been an issue too. Front to back the team has to be a unit.
We could bring in Nagelsmann and face the same issues. We need to replace those unable or unwilling to play the system.
Whose responsibility is it to make that happen?
Glazers and Woodward obviously.
Considering how much Dutch football culture has contributed to the modern game I’d say he has the right idea. Why is him being American “worse”? I’ve lived in both countries and tbh both football cultures needed to be dragged out of the stone age by foreign influences.
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A manager who is backed.
This is a bit of a circular argument, since you're using the presence of players unable or unwilling to buy in as prima facie evidence that the manager isn't being "backed"
The manager’s and he’ll be sacked next season if he continues to be unable to do that, but the way the club has been ran ties into why it’s such a challenge for him and managers that preceded him to create that culture. Now if INEOS are who they say they are and we’ll finally be ran like a proper football club, that excuse will be gone.
Most players are behind him. It so
happens the ones that aren’t, are not performing well on the pitch.
I mean, the structure should be using psych profiling to make sure new signings buy in. Antony would be a prime example if it weren't for those pesky women deriding his career and making him lose form.
He’s using the term vaguely but the “backing” or lack there of in this case that has made the implementation difficult is the reluctance to get rid of players until they walk on a free. Incoming transfer wise he’s been backed enough imo but the two go hand in hand. It took Arsenal three seasons to put together a squad that is almost solely made up of players Arteta has bought or promoted and they’ve had some me misses in the transfer market too.
We all keep focusing on the high line for the CBs. Most say we don’t have the players to play a high line, but that’s not really true. Varane, Maguire, Licha can all play a high line. It’s spacing and organization. A lot of our breakdowns came with balls into space out to the wings, forcing Varane and Maguire/Evans/Lindelof to cover those areas.
The problem was the secondary tactics Ten Hag installed in addition to the supposed high line. He had Dalot pinching in and at times making runs for balls over the top. He had 1 fecking DM with Mainoo and Bruno pushing forward. The high press was so poorly organized, coordinated and triggered, we constantly watched Bruno and others get getting angry when there was no teammate support.
The article in the NYTimes pointed to the fact that Ten Hag’s coaching / tactics were confusing, too detailed and dry/boring video sessions.
For me, of course, there were other organizational problems, big ones even, but there is no reporting that indicates there was anyone meddling with tactics from above, everything on the field started and ended with Ten Hag. Until the 4-0 Palace debacle, then reportedly Wilcox stepped in and demanded Ten Hag get more compact.
This is a very subjective post.
Does Ten Hag not have some responsibility for results?
Does he not have any responsibility to get buy in from his subordinates and the players?
I mean, Casemiro and Varane were reportedly disillusioned with the tactics and training. They’ve only won multiple CLs, leagues, the World Cup. You would think that when you have such rich player experience, a good manager would seek input or at least listen to input from those players.
To me, this is a failure in man management, squad harmony. Are the players responsible for this? Sure. But so is Ten Hag.
To be fair the entire narrative arround the nonsensical system we employted for 98% of last season makes no sense to me. And the stories coming out trying to explain it only pose more questions really.
Yes really, I can't predict unknowns mate. I have no idea what Harry Maguire or any other player could be capable of in the right circumstances and with the right coaching. If you are 100% he can't play in a high defensive line fair enough. I'm not so sure personally, I can vaguely remember Solskjaer trying him and Linfelof in a higher line away to Chelsea a few years ago. Think we won but I can't remember if they were any good.
I'd like to believe that Ten Hag was instructing the players to play a high defensive line and they didn't for whatever reason. But I just can't buy it, especially as we went into the season with 4 centrebacks that apparently aren't suited to playing in a high defensive line.
Does it explain the 8 point difference between 4th and 8th place? I’m assuming you would have been happy with a CL spot.
So the one we have???
For now. Any manager at MU is under constant pressure.
It's not a narrative. No sane manager thinks its a good idea to have an intention to play with a low block and have the midfield press high. Charrager tried painting this narrative, even though Ten Hag was insistent this is not the design. The Athletic have also briefed that this was not the design, and slower squad players fell back into old habits.
This argument is very flawed. As I said, we dont need to see games of say, Firminho as a target man striker to know it wouldn't suit his game. Maguire has 2-3 gaping holes in his game that makes him ill suited to a high line *unless* he has speedier players to cover him.
It's 1) more plausible this was always the case and 2) has been briefed by the Athletic. If you still want to ignore that then that's fine I guess.
Really glad we haven't sacked Erik as I think under the circumstances he's come out of it really good and with his head held high. We need stability and we need to get momentum going, two key ingredients for me. Let's get behind him next season and make him feel wanted.
I would have been happier than that with 8th. But it's the same with Mourinho and Solskjaer: A good league position is not enough to mask a style of play that's not sustainable and is going to lead us to better places.
United is (or should be) aiming for more than 4th, or the FA Cup or the League Cup. Those are great to pick up along the way, but that shouldn't take the focus away from the way itself.
I was massively for Ten Hag but am now against Ten Hag that's the difference between us.
I was super excited when we went for him even created one of the first threads saying we should go for him when he was still at Ajax.
I have now changed my mind and think he isn't good enough.
That's the difference between us, you are just permanently pro Ten Hag no matter what because you are Dutch.
Yes, a better and more inspiring manager would get the players buying in to what he wants them to do.
And you would know, right?
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