Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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Are we being unfair on ETH to expect better football this season (with the injuries) than the crap we dished out?

I think the standards were horrendous even for an injury stricken team.

But maybe I’m in the minority.

He didn't adjust tactically nearly as much as he should and could have. Kept ploughing on with failing systems, lineups week after week. As much as I think our season was doomed with all the issues, he created some by not adapting nearly as much as surely he could have.

See what's been learnt when we start next season I guess.
 
You must not have paid much attention to Bayern, that was the barest side they've had in a long time and they were full of key injuries.

Chelsea also had more missed days due to injuries than us by some margin and only 2 less specific injuries than us

But why aren’t you holding tuchel to the same unreasonable standard you’re holding ten hag?
 
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Sigh.
A cup is so much easier to win than a league. We can beat anyone on our day, but as you have seen our day hasn’t been every league match day.
We’ve crumbled so many times this past season, it’s either mentality or we’re just shite. I never said ten hag was the sole reason we won, but equally he isn’t the sole reason for our loses either.
Of course, single games wins are much easier to achieve than having full good seasons, which is why the goal is to become a good football team that can play sustainable winning football and gradually improve to become one of the best in Europe. We haven’t achieved that or really got any closer in the last two years.
 
The data put us at 6th or so last season. People laughed at me when I said we didn't do enough to deserve 3rd and thought we could challenge for the title this year. Likewise this year the data has us bottom half (14th or so), not 8th, so the position is still us overperforming the stats. It's hard to say how much was because of injuries.

At the very least I hope whoever is making the decision has the wisdom to balance player feedback, the eye test, the injuries, the stats to come to a conclusion.

what data is putting us 6th last season and 14th this season?
 
Sigh.
A cup is so much easier to win than a league. We can beat anyone on our day, but as you have seen our day hasn’t been every league match day.
We’ve crumbled so many times this past season, it’s either mentality or we’re just shite. I never said ten hag was the sole reason we won, but equally he isn’t the sole reason for our loses either.

You're simplifying it too much. Consistency across 38 games in a season is a known hard problem but even in one off cup games how many do we win? We lost against Bayern in a must-win game while looking totally clueless against a Bayern side in second gear at best. I'm sure there are a lot of other examples.

If we play the same FA cup final game against City 10 times how many will we win?

Ten Hag's not some cup game genius nor is our squad comprised of slackers who just turn up for the finals. We lack quality in both coaching and in personnel.
 
The data put us at 6th or so last season...Likewise this year the data has us bottom half (14th or so), not 8th, so the position is still us overperforming the stats.

All this highlights to me is how the current trend of over reliance on stats is flawed. As bad as we were at times this season. No amount of statistical evidence can tell me that we were more deserving of 14th place.

As the saying goes: "Statistics are used much like a drunk uses a lamp post: for support, not illumination"
 
All this highlights to me is how the current trend of over reliance on stats is flawed. As bad as we were at times this season. No amount of statistical evidence can tell me that we were more deserving of 14th place.

As the saying goes: "Statistics are used much like a drunk uses a lamp post: for support, not illumination"

Nope, the opposite actually. I think you're forgetting how bad we were at times this season. We've all got a lot going on in our lives and football is only a part. If you asked me if we deserved to draw against Burnley on Sep 23rd I would have no clue. And yet the stats say Burnley created at least as many chances as we did.

https://fbref.com/en/matches/8e26793d/Burnley-Manchester-United-September-23-2023-Premier-League
 
But why aren’t you holding tuchel to the same unreasonable standard you’re holding ten hag?
Tuchel has been criticized for this season. Though disappointing they still had a better year than us - 3rd in the league (which they weren’t winning against that Leverkusen team even if they had a good season by their standards, rather than an underwhelming one they had), got to a CL semifinal which they narrowly lost to Madrid. They should have done better in the league though and should not have lost 8 games.
 
Tuchel has been criticized for this season. Though disappointing they still had a better year than us - 3rd in the league (which they weren’t winning against that Leverkusen team even if they had a good season by their standards, rather than an underwhelming one they had), got to a CL semifinal which they narrowly lost to Madrid. They should have done better in the league though and should not have lost 8 games.

2.12 PPG (72) vs 2.09 PPG last season (71) vs 2.26 (77) the season before. It's hardly a crazy decline. I'd back Tuchel to improve them next year if he stuck around.
 
Just noticed. We are over 50% for him to stay. Have reached the promised land. Time for INEOS to show their cards.
 
Just noticed. We are over 50% for him to stay. Have reached the promised land. Time for INEOS to show their cards.

Yep if he's going to stick around now's the time to announce it. I still think it's a mistake but whatever, he'll get us top six next season and maybe the EL so it's fine.
 
If he was going to be sacked it would have been already done imo.

This delay is making me believe that they haven't made their minds up or are keeping him.

Yeah Saturday has rocked their decision making, however they simply have to take the fan emotion out of it because there is a lot of that
 
All this highlights to me is how the current trend of over reliance on stats is flawed. As bad as we were at times this season. No amount of statistical evidence can tell me that we were more deserving of 14th place.

As the saying goes: "Statistics are used much like a drunk uses a lamp post: for support, not illumination"
No it isn't. Because first, it's not like we saw good performances, then looked at the stats and thought "wow my eyes were deceiving me." We actually did think we were crap, and were lucky a lot of the time. To make sure, we then look at the stats of goal differential and see that we have been crap. Then you look at shots conceded and it's the same. Then you look at xG and we're crap. Then look at xPts and see that it's closer to 15th.

Now, being 15th in that stat doesn't mean we deserve 15th. There is variance. So there is a middle ground between the stats and the results. So being 11th-13th would be a fair reflection. It would still mean overperforming the stats, but it would be a fair reflection of the stats. But 15th that says we could easily be 11th or 12th? That's terrible. If the stats said we were 10th, but ended up in 8th, well that's just standard variance. That would mean we didn't overperform (result wise) and our performances were a deserved 8th place.

But I feel like some of us haven't learned our lesson from 2017-18. The results said United 2nd, and Liverpool 4th. The stats said United were lucky to be 2nd, and Liverpool unlucky to be 4th. The next season, United end up sacking Mourinho because the results started to reflect the performances. And our eyes were right. De Gea was amazing that season, giving us a league position that our outfield players didn't deserve. Now the goalkeeper is part of the team, but if the goalkeeper is having to mask the underlying problem of the outfield players' performances, well eventually if they don't perform at that same level of amazingness, you're going to have a huge slide in results.

The stats say that we could get even worse next season. Now Ten Hag could change something and those stats would become meaningless. There are those kind of jumps. My problem is that the chasm between the defense and midfield that was there from the Wolves match, to May (apart from the last few matches) shows that he really wants that. That recklessness can't possibly get United to the top. Our attack isn't benefiting from said recklessness like Nagelsmann's sides, and even if it did, the amount of chances we give up will never be enough to challenge for the title. So it feels like just delaying the inevitable.
 
Nope, the opposite actually. I think you're forgetting how bad we were at times this season. We've all got a lot going on in our lives and football is only a part. If you asked me if we deserved to draw against Burnley on Sep 23rd I would have no clue. And yet the stats say Burnley created at least as many chances as we did.

https://fbref.com/en/matches/8e26793d/Burnley-Manchester-United-September-23-2023-Premier-League

I'm clearly not forgetting 'how bad we were at times this season' when I literally stated in my post 'despite how bad we were at times this season'. I wonder whether some of you lot just watch vidiprinters and websites for stats on the game rather than using your own judgement. We just won a final as an underdog in a game in which they had most possession and in which all the stats suggested we would be on the end of a thumping. But we weren't. We won and deservedly so despite that. Because regardless of possession stats. We were the better team. Heck one of our greatest achievements in recent memory is in 99 when a game we were losing, and looking uninspired in was turned on its head by 2 late goals. Cue the Bayern tears and the Tears of joy from United fans.

Our club is built on those moments. We've been moments FC all season. Stats don't show that. You haven't known what we're going to get from one week to the next. Decent goals and performance one minute, largely crap the next. But with about 8 weeks to go I and most fans had us still scraping into the top 5 and catching a largely underwhelming spurs side. We failed miserably in the end. But we were much closer to that outcome than finishing 14th no matter what stats you read to largely substantiate your already held view.

Anyone who thinks we deserved to finish 14th this season should stop football and become a statistician. That's clearly where your enjoyment lies.
 
I don’t think 3rd last season was reflective of where the club is at. That was an overachievement and out of step with the season before. That isn’t to excuse this season but if he can come in and over achieve in his first season, I can excuse this season and hope for better next season. If it isn’t forthcoming then the consequences are inevitable and justified.

How much of an overachievement was it in a season in which Liverpool, Spurs and Chelsea were simply not good?
 
You must not have paid much attention to Bayern, that was the barest side they've had in a long time and they were full of key injuries.

Chelsea also had more missed days due to injuries than us by some margin and only 2 less specific injuries than us
That didn’t count injuries carrying over from last season which we had Malacia out for the entire season putting us ahead of Chelsea by some margin.
 
I don’t think it’s just the euphoria of winning the cup. It’s also the performance. If we won on penalties after a dogged 0-0 I don’t think momentum swings this much in his favor. So many pundits have asked “where has this United been?”. Although, to be fair, many have also pointed out that the game plan was tailored and not a blueprint.
We've won because of players upping their game, a blunder from a defender, moment of brilliance from Bruno and very good defending for 60'. We played a proper Ole-ball, I'd be shocked if this is something that would convince INEOS that Eric is the guy for the future.
I am pretty sure the "steering comitee" of any serious club will not change direction just after one good game. Especially that we had a total of 3 good games this season.

The fact the players were motivated for this game also doesn't make it any better for the manager. 95% of games in a season are not cup finals.
 
It's pointing to a sack the longer it takes to announce the decision. Surely you wouldn't need a whole week to declare that the manager is continuing with his tenure. It is also more likely they've already done their review during the season rather than wait to only have a few days after the season ends to do it.
 
It is bizarre that some people are saying stuff like “people must have forgotten last season when voting”

No. Not at all. They have just arrived at a different conclusion.
 
Winning a trophy is bigger than just the final. It’s also extra euphoric because it was vs City, and nobody really gave us a hope, especially with Hojlund on the bench and no Casemiro.
I think it’s key that Licha and Rafa were both playing too. Shows exactly what a stable base will do for the team. We’ve missed them both this season.

To be fair Varane was fit for most of the season.
 
2.12 PPG (72) vs 2.09 PPG last season (71) vs 2.26 (77) the season before. It's hardly a crazy decline. I'd back Tuchel to improve them next year if he stuck around.
They also dropped some extra points towards end of season, once it became clear they would not be winning the league. Would have probably finished close to 78-80 had there been a proper race.
 
To be fair Varane was fit for most of the season.
He was available for at least 25 out of 38 league games. Martinez we’ve missed but I am not comfortable at all if he’s the difference between being 3rd - 4th and 8th, knowing we are his injury away from turning into a rubbish team with no plan B. He might get injured again.
 
I dont know how well connected Kaveh is with Ineos people, but listening to his pieces about the review and ETH and Southgate, it's pretty obvious he thinks Southgate would be their lead candidate if this wasn't a summer with an international tournament.

Ineos use fan sentiment as an excuse to keep Ten Hag until Southgate is freed up. It makes a horrible amount of sense from their perspective.

He also says ETH expects a decision communicated to him by Friday.

:lol:

This is nightmare fuel mate.

One more season of ETH to wait out for Southgate to come in. I can hardly think of a worse scenario besides paying the FA compensation to bring Southgate in this summer :lol:

A large part of me still can't bring myself to believe that this Southgate stuff is anything but internet talk to drive engagement. I refuse to believe that any serious football men look at what Southgate has done and thinks that he has what it takes to be a top level club manager.
 
:lol:

This is nightmare fuel mate.

One more season of ETH to wait out for Southgate to come in. I can hardly think of a worse scenario besides paying the FA compensation to bring Southgate in this summer :lol:

A large part of me still can't bring myself to believe that this Southgate stuff is anything but internet talk to drive engagement. I refuse to believe that any serious football men look at what Southgate has done and thinks that he has what it takes to be a top level club manager.

Letting ETH have another year while we wait on Southgate to become available is stuff from the nightmares. Gives me shivers.
 
Tuchel and Poch who weren’t even close to facing the injury crisis and off the field distractions ten Hag faced this year. Some of our supporters are seriously deluded.

How many injuries did Chelsea have this season?
 
I'm clearly not forgetting 'how bad we were at times this season' when I literally stated in my post 'despite how bad we were at times this season'. I wonder whether some of you lot just watch vidiprinters and websites for stats on the game rather than using your own judgement. We just won a final as an underdog in a game in which they had most possession and in which all the stats suggested we would be on the end of a thumping. But we weren't. We won and deservedly so despite that. Because regardless of possession stats. We were the better team. Heck one of our greatest achievements in recent memory is in 99 when a game we were losing, and looking uninspired in was turned on its head by 2 late goals. Cue the Bayern tears and the Tears of joy from United fans.

Our club is built on those moments. We've been moments FC all season. Stats don't show that. You haven't known what we're going to get from one week to the next. Decent goals and performance one minute, largely crap the next. But with about 8 weeks to go I and most fans had us still scraping into the top 5 and catching a largely underwhelming spurs side. We failed miserably in the end. But we were much closer to that outcome than finishing 14th no matter what stats you read to largely substantiate your already held view.

Anyone who thinks we deserved to finish 14th this season should stop football and become a statistician. That's clearly where your enjoyment lies.

I don't pay attention to stats much but watching games (especially the second half of season) my eyes told me we were lucky. When you give away so many shots to bottom half of the league teams, you would have expected more of them to have gone in. Its a numbers game.

And if your eyes are telling you that even bottom half teams are dominating you, logic dictates that you are on the same level or worse....so in that sense we are very lucky to not be lower.
 
He was available for at least 25 out of 38 league games. Martinez we’ve missed but I am not comfortable at all if he’s the difference between being 3rd - 4th and 8th, knowing we are his injury away from turning into a rubbish team with no plan B. He might get injured again.

I rate him highly but I don't think he's that much of a difference maker. We'd have did better I've no doubt. But not sure we'd have did 4 places better.

But yeah if our system was that reliant on one player then its not great.
 
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He was available for at least 25 out of 38 league games. Martinez we’ve missed but I am not comfortable at all if he’s the difference between being 3rd - 4th and 8th, knowing we are his injury away from turning into a rubbish team with no plan B. He might get injured again.

Well in fairness only Martinez, Evans and Malacia are Ten Hag defensive signings. The other bunch of injury prone misfits are Woodie era. Evans and Malacia were always signed as backups/competition and have also been injured plenty. I guess it depends whether we want a system manager who needs the right squad, or an adaptable master tactician and man manager like Ancelotti.

System manager is the way football has been going for a long time unfortunately and there aren't many budding Ancelottis about. I agree though that for me managers need to adapt to their circumstances, it annoys me to watch the likes of Farke and Kompany (or Arteta) play the same way with their deadwood as if they'd 11 world class players out on the pitch, it's not management, it's just coaching.
 
Tuchel and Poch who weren’t even close to facing the injury crisis and off the field distractions ten Hag faced this year. Some of our supporters are seriously deluded.
EtH had to play Casemiro as CB, Tuchel had to play Goretzka as CB. That's a quite similar injury situation. Yes, this is a bit oversimplified but it's a fact that Bayern suffered from having a small squad and was often forced to play not fully fit players. That's roughly similar to United's crisis.

And there were a lot of off the field issues at Bayern as well, although more on board level and not so much inside the team. But the turmoil they had massively impacted their ability to build a squad and then they just put pressure on Tuchel to make their bullshit work.
 
How many injuries did Chelsea have this season?
They had injuries but how many of them were actually to their key players? Their squad is massive, and some of the players on the periphery have been injured but it’s been in absolutely no way comparable. Look at the analysis from Benito.
 
I'm clearly not forgetting 'how bad we were at times this season' when I literally stated in my post 'despite how bad we were at times this season'. I wonder whether some of you lot just watch vidiprinters and websites for stats on the game rather than using your own judgement. We just won a final as an underdog in a game in which they had most possession and in which all the stats suggested we would be on the end of a thumping. But we weren't. We won and deservedly so despite that. Because regardless of possession stats. We were the better team. Heck one of our greatest achievements in recent memory is in 99 when a game we were losing, and looking uninspired in was turned on its head by 2 late goals. Cue the Bayern tears and the Tears of joy from United fans.
Those are finals. In a one off game, anything can happen. People are against Ten Hag because they want to eventually win the league or CL. Those require a longer period of big moments (CL) or a long period of sustained excellence (PL).

You can't conflate the two arguments.

Our club is built on those moments. We've been moments FC all season. Stats don't show that. You haven't known what we're going to get from one week to the next. Decent goals and performance one minute, largely crap the next. But with about 8 weeks to go I and most fans had us still scraping into the top 5 and catching a largely underwhelming spurs side. We failed miserably in the end. But we were much closer to that outcome than finishing 14th no matter what stats you read to largely substantiate your already held view.

Anyone who thinks we deserved to finish 14th this season should stop football and become a statistician. That's clearly where your enjoyment lies.

Being closer to that outcome of Top 5, is based on results. If you overperformed your stats by a huge amount (8th instead of 15th), then of course you would be closer to top 5 because you're basing that perspective on results which are overperformance. That then does not mean that if you were to play another 20 matches, United would get top 5.

On January 3rd, the results were

4. Arsenal 40 pts, xPts 39.24 (2nd)
8. United 31 pts, xPts 23.78 (14th)
15. Palace 21 pts, xPts 24.80 (12th)

United were closer in results to Arsenal than Palace despite the stats saying otherwise.

At end of the season, even though United were closer in results to Arsenal, they became much closer to Palace with more games played.
2. Arsenal 89 pts
8. United 60
10. Palace 49
 
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