Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[pocco]

No, unfortunately I do. I also remember your posts during the Jose era. Somehow you didn't quite get behind the manager back then did you?

He didn't get it then, but he gets it now

I'm a match going, ST holder of over 20 years. Have been going to games most of my life. And I'll say that I agree with your sentiment, and practically every other match going supporter i spoke to was ETH out before the final.

One thing I've realised over the years is that you just don't try to judge sentiment
/feeling of our fans when it comes to managers. There's never, from what I can remember, been a time where the supporters have turned on a manager in the ground. They'll actually rather be the metaphorical brass band playing on the titanic, chanting their name, whilst they fail miserably at their job. We're a weird bunch, and will accept mediocrity and just seem to rely on the Glazers, Woodward, Arnold, Ineos to have the nuts to do what we won't, and call it a day. Just the way it is at Old Trafford.

 

[hobbers]

You have over 1,000 posts in this thread. 1,000 posts complaining about a manager who might be managing your football team next year and has won trophies, played youth, acted in a dignified way and tried his hardest.

No I'm pretty sure at least the first 200 or so were very supportive.

 

[Amarsdd]

What's interesting here is that the Glazers pandered to the lowest common denominator of fans (code for the thick ones) whenever they wanted a manager gone while ignoring the more intelligent critique that the club was being starved of investment and football leadership while it was in effect being asset stripped by rentier capitalists. They knew that as long as the fans were given their ritual sacrifices they would keep paying irrespective of results, and that's what they cared about. The product became the drama, not the football.

Now we have INEOS, who claim they're going to do the opposite, and the LCD fans are screaming for Ten Hag's head too. What will INEOS do? They will do the same as the Glazers did and sack him, because Ten Hag isn't a hill worth dying on.

Isn't exactly the opposite of what you're claiming seem to be happening now? Fans, after the FA final win, completely changed their mind along with making a big fuss about keeping ETH on. So now it seems INEOS might be changing the decision they had made before the final?

 

[Yagami]

Do you think when United play a game like Palace away , they should come off the pitch and say “Thank you to our loyal matchgoing fans who chant and support us no matter what and also to like the fan who is up in Belarus right now who also massively helps us out on a game like this”

Why is everyone assuming I’m a regular matchgoer. I managed to get to about ten games this year and that is it. I don’t have the money or the time to support the club home and away. Those that do obviously should be listened to and not belittled.

I'm not even just talking about this season. I've been going to games since my dad started taking me in the 90s, and I'm not saying I go to loads of games myself by any means for what it's worth. Like you, I go when I can. Even when we were good, I heard so many nasty things directed to Nani for example, and this wasn't long after he was in world class form.

All I'm saying is that, in the two groups you like to separate (match going and not), both groups aren't that much different. I get listening to local fans more in terms of let's say what do with Old Trafford (I have family who live pretty much next to it) but I think we should all have an equal voice in regards to the managers performance for example. I think the fans who get up at all hours in the morning and that fly to Manchester just to watch one game are as big a United fan as you or I.

Some of the most kneejerk and idiotic takes about the club I've ever heard has been at matches.

From the way this lad is talking you would think that the Stretford End is made up only of football scholars who blindly support the club then go and do community work around Trafford centre when the game lets out.

I've also heard a lot of negative comments at the stadium about Ten Hag in literally the last 2 months. Maybe those weren't "real fans" and the criteria for being one is actually "agree with what wumminator thinks".

On the whole, I think our match going fans are great (especially away), so I'm not trying to insult them, but, like you, and as a match going fan at times myself, I don't like to put this section of the fan base on a pedestal to look down on others because there have been so many games where they've made the much criticised match day threads on here reasonable!

 

[Stobzilla]

He will probably stay.

INEOS will give him a modest summer (CB, CM, ST) the former two will be players for the future. There will be a few sales (Greenwood, Casemiro, maybe a CB) and some releases. But nowhere near the full scale blow up people are expecting.

He will be given enough to do marginally better and will be told to do significantly better, if he fails quickly into the season and loses a few, then he's spent half a billion and it's not looking good, INEOS have an easy, justifiable sacking and they look like they have exercised all the patience he could possibly have been afforded.

If he succeeds, INEOS look like genius' for sticking with him.

If they play it right then this doesn't have to be a big issue for INEOS, we'll see how they do.

 

[Wumminator]

I'm not even just talking about this season. I've been going to games since my dad started taking me in the 90s, and I'm not saying I go to loads of games myself by any means for what it's worth. Like you, I go when I can. Even when we were good, I heard so many nasty things directed to Nani for example, and this wasn't long after he was in world class form.

All I'm saying is that, in the two groups you like to separate (match going and not), both groups aren't that much different. I get listening to local fans more in terms of let's say what do with Old Trafford (I have family who live pretty much next to it) but I think we should all have an equal voice in regards to the managers performance for example. I think the fans who get up at all hours in the morning and that fly to Manchester just to watch one game are as big a United fan as you or I.


On the whole, I think our match going fans are great (especially away), so I'm not trying to insult them, but, like you, and as a match going fan at times myself, I don't like to put this section of the fan base on a pedestal to look down on others because there have been so many games where they've made the much criticised match day threads on here reasonable!

Really good post! I mostly agree with you!

 

[Yagami]

Really good post! I mostly agree with you!

I just want us to all get along regardless of what happens!

 

[Plant0x84]

We all support the club for Christ sake, otherwise we wouldn't be taking such an active interest in this very thread. You guys just believe that a manager that's taken us the 8th with a negative goal difference should continue and other people believe that that's unacceptable.

‘Accepting mediocrity’ implies that those who back the manager are happy with the way this season has gone, and NOBODY is happy with 8th and a negative goal difference but some can see there are extenuating circumstances that explain (not excuse) why this season has been the way it has. And not just injuries either, although that has been extreme. Others are hit headed and reactionary and think changing the manager for an 8th time in 11 years will be the silver bullet to solve all our woes and it’s stupid. It hasn’t worked the other 7 times, but there is a refusal to accept that the club might have bigger problems. It’s naive in the extreme.
For what it’s worth, I really believe ‘insults’ like top red are childish and pathetic and only serve to demonstrate how childish and petty this fanbase can be.

 

[TsuWave]

Let's not overlook the fact that Ten Hag inherited a dysfunctional dressing room full of egos and lacking in discipline. He has to deal with many off-field challenges involving Ronaldo, Sancho, Rashford and Anthony

As do managers at the top end of the game.

as well as ownership saga which are far from typical for a new manager responsibility.

Ten Hag himself said he was relatively insulated from said ownership saga, but spoke bullishly about it:

Ten Hag says he has not spoken to the Glazer family about the situation, although BBC Sport understands nothing substantive is likely to happen until the festive period is over.

"There will be more investment possible which is good," said Ten Hag.

The Dutchman says when he was informed of the plan by chief executive Richard Arnold, he was reassured by what it meant.

"We spoke about the culture we want, we spoke about objectives, goals and the culture and he confirmed it won't change," he said.

"It will be even better because more money will become available for this project."

[source]

I agree that United's Premier League and Champions League results have been disappointing this season for different reasons. However, considering his achievements, including a third-place finish, three finals, and two trophies, one could argue that Ten Hag has exceeded expectations during his two seasons at United.

I wholeheartedly disagree with the notion that Ten Hag has exceeded expectations.

United has invested close to half a billion during his tenure, and though most don't expect a title challenge, top four challenge and cup challenges were expected. That accounts for the third place finish in the first season - which is then followed by our worst ever prem finish this season. I don't put much stock in the league cup, but I do think the FA cup is a good trophy. With some embarrassing showings in both Europa and CL.

 

[mythz]

People run with emotions from one match.

The whole season been absolutely shocking.

Why waste more time. Sack him

 

[Melville Red]

Nah, The Guardian is alright when it comes to politics. Did brilliantly in exposing Dominic Cummings and Johnson, especially during Partygate.

The football section is fairly terrible. BTL is ABU bliss whereas its casual prodding into all things United rarely hits the mark, save, of course, if you're a shit-stirring ABU.



Ageism.

The Guardian is a right lefty rag which actually supported J Corbyn I wouldn’t give that article or any article appearing in that so called news paper one minute of my time . It’s on par with those cess pit rags The Daily Mirror and The Observer..

 

[Atheist]

We finished “only 8 points” from a position close to top 4 and we should be happy with that? As if 8 points is a small margin - that’s atleast 3 games to overcome.

 

[Berbasbullet]

The Guardian is a right lefty rag which actually supported J Corbyn I wouldn’t give that article or any article appearing in that so called news paper one minute of my time . It’s on par with those cess pit rags The Daily Mirror and The Observor.

What newspaper would you suggest we trust?

 

[Raven]

‘Accepting mediocrity’ implies that those who back the manager are happy with the way this season has gone, and NOBODY is happy with 8th and a negative goal difference but some can see there are extenuating circumstances that explain (not excuse) why this season has been the way it has. And not just injuries either, although that has been extreme. Others are hit headed and reactionary and think changing the manager for an 8th time in 11 years will be the silver bullet to solve all our woes and it’s stupid. It hasn’t worked the other 7 times, but there is a refusal to accept that the club might have bigger problems. It’s naive in the extreme.
For what it’s worth, I really believe ‘insults’ like top red are childish and pathetic and only serve to demonstrate how childish and petty this fanbase can be.

No, accepting mediocrity means accepting mediocrity, which is being kind to ETH supporters. ETH has been utter shit this season, nothing mediocre about it. The biggest reason we had such a shit season is because he was so fecking stubborn with his suicidal midfield set up. He could have played more than a 1 man midfield all season but instead he persisted with suicide ball until the last 4 games where we actually looked like a football team.

When you're dealing with people ranking other's commitment to the club based on their geographic location in some kind of weird sporting caste system, you can't be surprised when other's sarcastically call him a top red.

 

[Irwin99]

Much like in your initial post where you asserted people want title challenges - which is not reflective of what’s happening in this thread - I don’t think anyone’s ignoring third place finish and the cup wins.

Realistically, the league cup is a minor trophy that hardly anyone cares about. I don’t dismiss it wholesale but I don’t think inflating its importance is conducive of anything productive. Third place and with the monetary and time investment you’d expect progression in our football, yet we have some of the worst metrics in the league in a substantial amount of markers - unfortunately, they can’t all be explained away with “injuries”. The FA cup is a good trophy but came in one of our worst, if not the worst prem showing we’ve ever had, as well as embarrassing CL run. Cup competitions are also hardly reflective of where you are as a team - United is not the first nor will it be the last poor team to win one.

Judging most recent season, I think it would be fair to say we’ve regressed. Massively. And judging as overall balance - it’s been underwhelming and performances poor, and not because people are expecting nor demanding title challenges right now.

Someone actually did say in this thread 'he was supposed to be challenging for the title' this season which I think is very unrealistic at best. If everyone is fit and available our squad quality is probably 4th place, which we finished 8 points behind. So yes, that was an utter failure and you can't discount the bad performances, I don't disagree. I actually do think though that people are ignoring his third place finish prior to that- not that that is some fantastic achievement or anything in itself- but when people have been labeling him as the worst manager in the post SAF era in this thread, with a points total only Jose has bettered in this era, some of the stuff thrown at him seems a bit silly.

I agree that while domestic cup wins aren't enough by themselves, they are certainly something, and after 5 years of nothing on the trophy front with just two finals in that time before EtH arrived I'm willing to put two trophies (and three finals) in two years as a plus for him. Winning trophies does matter.

As for the regression part, Liverpool went from 92 points in 21-22 to 67 points in the following season, back to 82 points this season. It does happen. I think Fergie went from second place to 11th the following year in the 80s. Bad seasons happen, it's whether you think there are circumstances which justify that drop and believe they will change or you think this is a downward spiral. As I said in another comment, he's on very thin ice if he does stay but I'm willing to look at some of the things he has done right, the trophies and the progression of some of the young players and give him a final chance.

 

[TrebleChamp99]

Hang on a second what do you lot think happens when we're two months I tot he new season and he's serving up the same shite , he's signed some proper duds for 80m each from eredivisie and we are languishing in mid table?

It's far more risky to keep him there's nothing to suggest he'll do better in the window or the league next season.

 

[saivet]

Let’s not pretend that we won’t have finished 8th if we had a fully fit squad all season. ETH has already shown what he can do with a half decent team. He beat city with his first choice CB pairing who wasn’t even fully fit by the way. What if he starts next season of well? Will people still want him gone?

Chelsea and Newcastle also had to deal with pretty bad injuries this season too. It's over simplistic to say with a fully fit squad we'd be higher.

If he stays, those like me who want him out will have to just back him, even if the faith isn't there. I'd happily be proven wrong. What it will mean is patience will likely be thin with those fans.

 

[Plant0x84]

Because the only alternative to mediocrity is winning the CL Had we finished again in top 4 everyone would have been happy. Hell even 5 place with an actual style taking shape, that is not suicidal, would have been acceptable. But not 8th place and NEGATIVE goal difference. I have to correct myself , for a club of our stature and resource it's not even mediocre, it's downright poor.

We’re Man United, the biggest and best team in the world. Apart from we haven’t been that since 2013. We perennially struggle to be a top 4 team. Why do you think Jose was so keen to big up 2nd place when he was here? The club is a mess. Until the last 2 years under Erik we have suffered embarrassing results to smaller teams in the domestic cups. We aren’t a CL quality team, and have been regularly bested in the EL. Spanish teams seem our Achilles heel. Fallen giant, sleeping giant call it what you like, but holding a manager to a championship winning season when we aren’t that team anymore is just silly. Fans need to accept we are way behind and are building toward future success. That’s isn’t a linear trajectory, we will suffer in the mean time. Simply changing managers every 2 years isn’t the answer.

 

[Ayush_reddevil]

We finished “only 8 points” from a position close to top 4 and we should be happy with that? As if 8 points is a small margin - that’s atleast 3 games to overcome.

What people also ignore is that if you look at the underlying numbers then we are actually closer to 14th than we are to 4th so we are lucky to be even within 8 points

 

[Remember the geese]

Hang on a second what do you lot think happens when we're two months I tot he new season and he's serving up the same shite , he's signed some proper duds for 80m each from eredivisie and we are languishing in mid table?

It's far more risky to keep him there's nothing to suggest he'll do better in the window or the league next season.

He isn't responsible for this coming window. There won't be any £80m duds from the eredivisie.

 

[Rolaholic]

Has there ever been a more reactionary and 'prisoner of the moment' kind of fanbase as ours?

 

[Plant0x84]

What people also ignore is that if you look at the underlying numbers then we are actually closer to 14th than we are to 8th so we are lucky to be even within 8 points

What the feck does that even mean? We are closer to 8th because we finished the season, erm…. 8th. We aren’t lucky to be within 8points, it’s literally what our on field efforts have resulted in this season.

 

[saivet]

Has there ever been a more reactionary and 'prisoner of the moment' kind of fanbase as ours?

I think you'll find most fan bases are reactionary, we just have a huge fan base and we don't pay attention to other clubs as closely.

I'd point to Chelsea fans moaning about Poch since the start and as things got a bit better towards the end, a lot of them are upset he was sacked.

 

[Raven]

The Guardian is a right lefty rag which actually supported J Corbyn I wouldn’t give that article or any article appearing in that so called news paper one minute of my time . It’s on par with those cess pit rags The Daily Mirror and The Observer..

Did not expect any Corbyn bashing in here, fair play I guess.

 

[Ayush_reddevil]

We’re Man United, the biggest and best team in the world. Apart from we haven’t been that since 2013. We perennially struggle to be a top 4 team. Why do you think Jose was so keen to big up 2nd place when he was here? The club is a mess. Until the last 2 years under Erik we have suffered embarrassing results to smaller teams in the domestic cups. We aren’t a CL quality team, and have been regularly bested in the EL. Spanish teams seem our Achilles heel. Fallen giant, sleeping giant call it what you like, but holding a manager to a championship winning season when we aren’t that team anymore is just silly. Fans need to accept we are way behind and are building toward future success. That’s isn’t a linear trajectory, we will suffer in the mean time. Simply changing managers every 2 years isn’t the answer.

Yet even with our struggles of the last 10 years ETH managed to break all records of being shit finishing 8th with a negative GD and bottom of the CL group with 4 points in his second season in charge. If that isn’t alarming for Manchester United well then there is no coming back

 

[SirScholes]

Ten Hag guided Manchester United to two trophies in two seasons.

And yet the worst United team I’ve seen in my 38 years

 

[honirelandboy]

2 trophies, 2 seasons. Ten hag deserves one more year with proper backroom staff now in place to support him and his style of football and employ proper transfer policies with players of the right age and to stop the savage wages of average players.. It would be utterly crazy to sack him. Yes some of our performances have been crazy bad but he did get 3rd his first season and a cup. People looking for him to be sacked are not Man United supporters in my opinion and Ten Hag deserves one more season. If you want Ten Hag to be sacked in my opinion your a glory hunting Man Utd fan who will criticize any manager in charge and think a new manager will bring instant success and this would not be the case! Ten Hag deserves one more season! Poch and Tuchel failed to win the french league and German league in thier 1st season where it was dominated for years by the teams they were manging. Tells you all really? Who else is there De Zebri? Sorry not good enough and unproven.

 

[hobbers]

If he succeeds, INEOS look like genius' for sticking with him.

If they play it right then this doesn't have to be a big issue for INEOS, we'll see how they do.

When he fails next season Ineos will look like cretins. Cretins who can't stand by their own analytically-driven decisions and are slaves to the whims of fans whose opinions flip one game to the next.

And if that happens any faith in their stewardship will be completely eroded going forward.

 

[Plant0x84]

Yet even with our struggles of the last 10 years ETH managed to break all records of being shit finishing 8th with a negative GD and bottom of the CL group with 4 points in his second season in charge. If that isn’t alarming for Manchester United well then there is no coming back

You have to consider the context of the season. The off field stuff, the player fall outs, the injuries, the tactics, opponent strengths etc. It’s grossly unfair to simply pin it all on the manager. It should all be considered and rationalised in context. Funnily enough that’s exactly what INEOS are doing right now.

 

[Ayush_reddevil]

What the feck does that even mean? We are closer to 8th because we finished the season, erm…. 8th. We aren’t lucky to be within 8points, it’s literally what our on field efforts have resulted in this season.

Sorry it was a typo, by all underlying stats we are closer to 14th in our performances than we are to 4th. So the 8 points difference probably flatters us

 

[TsuWave]

Has there ever been a more reactionary and 'prisoner of the moment' kind of fanbase as ours?

I think fans in general are reactionary, United fanbase especially so due to the weird relationship with the managerial position at this club, but the people leading the club shouldn't be doing so with tweets/twitter polls and "Dear Slim," stan type letters in mind.

I'm hoping the suggestions that INEOS is/has taken note of fan sentiment are wide off the mark or at the very least isn't a decisive factor in their course of action otherwise this institution might truly be finished

 

[mythz]

2 trophies, 2 seasons. Ten hag deserves one more year with proper backroom staff now in place to support him and his style of football and employ proper transfer policies with players of the right age and to stop the savage wages of average players.. It would be utterly crazy to sack him.

8 place negative gd . Deserves the sack , zero excuses

 

[The Firestarter]

We’re Man United, the biggest and best team in the world. Apart from we haven’t been that since 2013. We perennially struggle to be a top 4 team. Why do you think Jose was so keen to big up 2nd place when he was here? The club is a mess. Until the last 2 years under Erik we have suffered embarrassing results to smaller teams in the domestic cups. We aren’t a CL quality team, and have been regularly bested in the EL. Spanish teams seem our Achilles heel. Fallen giant, sleeping giant call it what you like, but holding a manager to a championship winning season when we aren’t that team anymore is just silly. Fans need to accept we are way behind and are building toward future success. That’s isn’t a linear trajectory, we will suffer in the mean time. Simply changing managers every 2 years isn’t the answer.

Are you actually reading , who is talking about winning championships? How about not finishing dead last in the easiest CL group? Too much to ask from "cup specialist " Erik?

 

[VivaJesperBlomqvist]

He didn't get it then, but he gets it now

I'm a match going, ST holder of over 20 years. Have been going to games most of my life. And I'll say that I agree with your sentiment, and practically every other match going supporter i spoke to was ETH out before the final.

One thing I've realised over the years is that you just don't try to judge sentiment
/feeling of our fans when it comes to managers. There's never, from what I can remember, been a time where the supporters have turned on a manager in the ground. They'll actually rather be the metaphorical brass band playing on the titanic, chanting their name, whilst they fail miserably at their job. We're a weird bunch, and will accept mediocrity and just seem to rely on the Glazers, Woodward, Arnold, Ineos to have the nuts to do what we won't, and call it a day. Just the way it is at Old Trafford.

Some people here actually think they know better than those who go to matches regularly though.

Genuine question as a former ST holder myself who was effectively priced out: why do people use this as some measure of authority? Do you know how much moronic shit I would hear in the Stratford End? One bloke who sat behind me used to say that Rooney was a “scouse shithead” and our “worst striker in years”. This was around 2009. Another one said that Fergie was past it and we needed Martin O’Neil when Jose was on top at Chelsea.

A lot of match going fans are on a different planet. I couldn’t care less what they think IF we are using that as some appeal to authority.

 

[Raven]

2 trophies, 2 seasons. Ten hag deserves one more year with proper backroom staff now in place to support him and his style of football and employ proper transfer policies with players of the right age and to stop the savage wages of average players.. It would be utterly crazy to sack him. Yes some of our performances have been crazy bad but he did get 3rd his first season and a cup. People looking for him to be sacked are not Man United supporters in my opinion and Ten Hag deserves one more season. If you want Ten Hag to be sacked in my opinion your a glory hunting Man Utd fan who will criticize any manager in charge and think a new manager will bring instant success and this would not be the case! Ten Hag deserves one more season! Poch and Tuchel failed to win the french league and German league in thier 1st season where it was dominated for years by the teams they were manging. Tells you all really? Who else is there De Zebri? Sorry not good enough and unproven.

Seriously, can we stop this "not real fans" bollocks? It makes you look like an idiot.

 

[Plant0x84]

Are you actually reading , who is talking about winning championships? How about not finishing dead last in the easiest CL group? Too much to ask from "cup specialist " Erik?

Should we take this conversation to the Onana thread? Because that is far more on him than on the manager. We were 2-0 up against Galatasaray and Copenhagen, playing well and the game plan was working and only GK blunders allowed our opponents back into the game.

 

[red.knight]

Is "doing enough" really the standard of this football club, coming off one of our worst league campaigns in history. Also another year no matter what?

What is the standard of our club? We've struggled to maintain our standards since Fergie retired:

• We've finished outside the top four six times since Fergie retired.
• We haven't seriously challenged for the league title since Fergie retired.
• We've only won five trophies since Fergie retired, with two of those secured by Ten Hag in just two seasons.
• We are the third highest spenders in the last 10 years, with the worst net spend.
• We've witnessed players downing tools to force managerial changes.

I can go on and on. It's undeniable that we have fallen spectacularly from our grace since Fergie retired. Let's not kid ourselves. Restoring United to its former glory days will require both time and investment.

What if we have a disastrous first month of two, do you cling onto him even then?

I prefer not to speculate on whether Ten Hag will start next season poorly or not, but I will assess him based on the team's results, player development and overall progress.

 

[Dominos]

We finished “only 8 points” from a position close to top 4 and we should be happy with that? As if 8 points is a small margin - that’s atleast 3 games to overcome.

That's missing key context also. We were 15th in xPTS.

It's a minor miracle we even finished in the top half of the table given our performance levels.

 

[Plant0x84]

What is the standard of our club? We've struggled to maintain our standards since Fergie retired:

• We've finished outside the top four six times since Fergie retired.
• We haven't seriously challenged for the league title since Fergie retired.
• We've only won five trophies since Fergie retired, with two of those secured by Ten Hag in just two seasons.
• We are the third highest spenders in the last 10 years, with the worst net spend.
• We've witnessed players downing tools to force managerial changes.

I can go on and on. It's undeniable that we have fallen spectacularly from our grace since Fergie retired. Let's not kid ourselves. Restoring United to its former glory days will require both time and investment.

I prefer not to speculate on whether Ten Hag will start next season poorly or not, but I will assess him based on the team's results, player development and overall progress.

Great post. Well done.

 

[honirelandboy]

Seriously, can we stop this "not real fans" bollocks? It makes you look like an idiot.

No it doesn't whatsoever. I will repeat glory hunting fans, Only reason they probably started supporting United in the first place because they were winning everything! Two trophies two seasons when we have only won five trophies since Fergie retired and finished outside champions league spots six times and you want Ten Hag sacked, give me a break. Again I will repeat with the not real fans because that is what you are!