Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[Herschel Krustofsky]

What exactly are you looking for? I mean the posters who want EtH out have made their position very clear.

Talking about name calling or jumping on a post with an assumption about someone’s position, there are other odd behaviours.

Not whether you are in favour of keeping / sacking the manager or not.

The ones who do this and then fail to engage when asked might as well not be here

 

[Ole'sgunnarwin]

We’re 16th in the points table since February 18.

That’s 10 games, 10 points out of 30.

All this whilst being relatively lucky that opponents struggle to finish in matches against us.

This is astonishingly bad, I struggle to even find the words for it.

And this man has had the audacity to say things have been good this calendar year

 

[VP89]

Imagine United fans wanting the man who’s guided the team to 8th in the table with a -4 goal difference, overseen 18 defeats all season & finished bottom of the CL group to be sacked. Absolute madness. Stupid mob mentality.

Edit: Look who’s using hyperbole now

It's not just that they want him sacked. They want him to be the prime blame for every wrongdoing at the club.

If you read the posts I've been called out as a cultist for you'd see that. One guy didn't like that Mount could have been wanted at anyone else outside of Ten Hag

 

[Slevs]

Brainless tedious sludge at home. Never acceptable. The injuries are rough, it did really hit home yesterday once again how savaged our squad is, but we're so dull and lacking in ingenuity. We create so little, and look so bereft of ideas every single game. Our players honestly seem dim for the most part, there's so little intellect there. Makes me wonder if some of them are even capable of following tactical advice.

I think you've covered both sides of the argument here.

1- Injuries to key players mean we need to play lesser quality players or downright out of position players in other areas. This creates a gap in quality compared to the opposition team (if they are full strength). Casemiro is always going to lose out against a good striker when playing CB for 90 minutes.

2- However, playing a player out of position and playing lesser quality players due to injuries does not mean the team should have no idea how to pass/move with and without the ball. That's on the manager.
There's a massive difference between knowing what to do and failing to do it because of lack of quality, compared to not having any clue what to do during games and just going off vibes. The 2nd point is on the manager. 2 years he's been here and we still have no idea what to do with the ball except pass it to Garnacho/Rashford and inshallah.

 

[stevoc]

United need 4 points from the last 2 games to avoid worst ever points total, +4 goals to avoid worst goal difference. Most losses ever in a PL season. And somehow the current points total flatters United. Honestly could be 5-6 points worse easily. Yet people will still make excuses for this clown show.

Don't forget most goals conceded in a season since the 70's and most home defeats in a season in the clubs history.

 

[AndySmith1990]

Last week BBC had an article quoting something about us being the worst coached team in the league, and this week there's one posing the question whether we're one of the worst United teams ever. About time the media spotlight started focusing more on how bad the team, and more specifically Ten Hag, is

 

[stevoc]

I admire your resilience, and others like VP89. You all deserve medals

The whole thing is getting very childish, I’ve reached out to a few to ask if they can explain their position / assumption / assertion to me and guess what, no response.

It’s getting very tiring

Well makes sense people on here are very reluctant to discuss Ten Hag in any sort of detail.

 

[Marching On!]

The absolute neck on this guy to suggest the “improvement” yesterday was the result of players carrying out his instructions as oppose to any tactical tweak

 

[mythz]

New day not sacked. I have not read his quotes after the match. But I guess he blamed the injuries, excuses always.

Done with this manager.

Ten Hag out!

 

[sglowrider]

Yeah I would think he is a short term appointment,however if he can get us back into top 4 then makes us more attractive for their ideal fit manager in couple of seasons. Think an Alonso/Nagelsmann could definitely be attracted.
I also believe that if we have to go through a few more managers in order to find the right one then I am totally on board with that as well.

Or we just have a structure like an Abramovich era club structure -- or was that just a one off (judging on what Boehley has done since)?

Or is long term manager, ie like being at United for a decade or two is just a moon shot or pipedream nowadays?

I think those two systems will be incompatible and quite different --- an Abramovich Chelsea was designed to work with multiple head coaches. Whereas a long term manager would eventually want to stamp his influence up & down the organisation and may not want to stay if not given more authority, ala mid-United career Fergie. And then when they do retire, we will be back to square one.

 

[Lash]

I think you've covered both sides of the argument here.

1- Injuries to key players mean we need to play lesser quality players or downright out of position players in other areas. This creates a gap in quality compared to the opposition team (if they are full strength). Casemiro is always going to lose out against a good striker when playing CB for 90 minutes.

2- However, playing a player out of position and playing lesser quality players due to injuries does not mean the team should have no idea how to pass/move with and without the ball. That's on the manager.
There's a massive difference between knowing what to do and failing to do it because of lack of quality, compared to not having any clue what to do during games and just going off vibes. The 2nd point is on the manager. 2 years he's been here and we still have no idea what to do with the ball except pass it to Garnacho/Rashford and inshallah.

That bit is more on those players. They are pure head down players, all attacks either die with them or they get a shot away. There's no looking up with them and it's frustrated players like Bruno and Hojlund quite visibly all season.

 

[roonster09]

Don’t blame you for feeling uncomfortable with all the times you’ve struggled in these debates and had to go in circles trying to come up with even more ridiculous points. I think your ‘significantly more points’ and ‘slightly more goals’ will never be beaten as the best math gymnastics ever on this forum.

Don’t worry though, I have not even been reading your posts lately. Like I said after Palace game at this point it is pointless engaging in any debates. The delusion circle has become so small there’s virtually no debates anymore anyway.

Wonder if these guys will still use that argument.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

The fact some people still try to defend him is just insane to me.

Our worst season in decades and some still would give him next season.

Standards have never been lower.

 

[Sarni]

Wonder if these guys will still use that argument.

Yeah we are currently 4 behind our worst ever PL season. Will this season be massively worse than Ole/Rangnick year?

 

[Bobski]

The fact some people still try to defend him is just insane to me.

Our worst season in decades and some still would give him next season.

Standards have never been lower.

Other than giving young players a chance what on pitch positives to move forward with has this season delivered?

Almost nothing, there have maybe been 3 or 4 genuinely good team performances all season, no sign of any combinations developing, or sustainable patterns of play or a a structure that the players understand and can deliver on.

It has been an utter shambles, and the results still massively flatter the performances.

Hide behind injuries, but what can you point to from the last season and a half as a sign of coaching development?

 

[Revan]

Yeah we are currently 4 behind our worst ever PL season. Will this season be massively worse than Ole/Rangnick year?

It already is IMO.

To be fair, I think that season would have also been worse if we had kept Ole. And this would have been better if we had sacked EtH. I have never seen a club persist with a manager so long while it is completely clear that he is out of his depth.

 

[Fallon d'Floor]

We also could be 8 pts better off. If we didn’t concede late goals to Chelsea, late goal to Burnley, late goal to Liverpool, late goal to Fulham. Not to mention a few of them being penalties.

There's a longer list of games where the result could have gone the opponent's way. We've scored multiple 90+ minute goals this season. It works both ways.

Onana got away with taking out a Wolves defender on the opening night of the season. That could have been a 1-1 draw. Wolves deserved to win that game.

Fulham could have gotten a draw at Craven Cottage had it not been for a Leno howler in the 91st minute. We won that game 1-0.

Bournemouth could have beaten us if we weren't awarded a controversial penalty. They were the better team.

Our xPts for the season is 42.87! We're lucky to be on 54 points.

 

[Sarni]

It already is IMO.

To be fair, I think that season would have also been worse if we had kept Ole. And this would have been better if we had sacked EtH. I have never seen a club persist with a manager so long while it is completely clear that he is out of his depth.

It'd probably be on par with this season. Don't imagine it being any worse but probably would not be better either.

 

[roonster09]

Yeah we are currently 4 behind our worst ever PL season. Will this season be massively worse than Ole/Rangnick year?

I did a quick check, Ole has better ppg than EtH.

 

[Fallon d'Floor]

PL head to head record

Pep:
4 games
1 win
3 losses
-7 GD

Klopp:
4 games
1 win
2 draws
1 loss
-6 GD

Arteta:
4 games
1 win
3 losses
-2 GD

Emery:
4 games
3 wins
1 loss
+2 GD

Ange:
2 games
1 draw
1 loss
-2 GD

Howe:
3 games
1 draw
2 losses
-3 GD

Moyes:
4 games
2 wins
2 losses
+1 GD

Poch:
2 games
1 win
1 loss
0 GD

Iraola
2 games
1 draw
1 loss
-3 GD

De Zerbri:
2 games
2 losses
-3 GD

Frank:
4 games
2 wins
1 draw
1 loss
-2 GD

Conte:
1 game
1 win
+2 GD

Potter:
2 games
1 draw
1 loss
-1 GD

Updated after yesterday's loss.

His record vs the best coaches in the league is very poor. -24 GD. It's been that way across 2 seasons.

This is one of the biggest reasons why he has to go.

 

[Von Mistelroum]

It's pretty depressing ending the season this way (likely winless) and also having no real hope of change.

It seems very much like EtH will stay, we don't have structure in place still, so he'll probably get a big say in transfers again, and we'll be just as bad if not worse next season trying to fit more square pegs in round holes and watching Rashford, McTom, Antony and friends stink up the place while our rivals make progress.

I expect Chelsea to be miles ahead of us this time next year, for example.

 

[Telsim]

The situation in the club isn't better or worse than it was when the previous managers were here, yet none of them sunk this low. Well, maybe Solskjaer and Mourinho would have, but they got sacked before they could. And some of them had arguably worse squads.

He just isn't a particularly good manager. Certainly not enough for this level. C-list, alongside Gareth Southgate and Graham Potter. Could maybe sink even lower if he finishes the season like this. Two difficult games to avoid this. It is unfortunate, but it is what it is. He ends up a very rich man and the club finds the guy with the next best plan.

 

[Sarni]

I did a quick check, Ole has better ppg than EtH.

But only slightly better while ETH has massively better win rate I bet, and had significantly higher PPG last season than Ole's best season.

 

[RedRover]

Setting up the team for failure for no good reason. Really exacerbating the weaknesses of a number of our players by making them overextend and do things they can't do. Making Casemiro run in acres of space when at his time in career cycle the distances he should cover should be even shorter - there's a reason why you put runners around the older legs and have them read the play and sweep up, ala Real with Kroos. The list is endless.

Even if his grand plan was to switch to the system he has in his head, he had absolutely no need to do it this season and so abruptly, and with the incorrect personnel. Playing conventional football, we aren't half as bad as some seem to think. Even if Rashford was carrying us in terms of goals last season, we were harder to play against and more able to keep opponents out whilst foraging for goals ourselves. He literally took all of that away from the team in one fell swoop, then put ill-suited players in positions to run his own system prematurely, and that tanked us.

We mightn't have gotten 4th ultimately, but we would have made a very fair crack of it if he hadn't dicked around to such an extreme extent. He showed awful, awful foresight in moving his pieces too soon, also.

Well said. Management is about good decision making. He routinely makes poor decisions in terms of how we're set up and then doubles down, as if it's magically going to click. Conceding 20 plus shots a game week after week, even against relegation fodder tells you it's not working and you need to change something.

 

[Born2Lose]

Hate journos, but so funny from Custis reality slapping Ten Hag out of his happy bubble that United didn't take a hammering for Arsenal.

Big summer for INEOS, if they don't get rid of ten Hag I think fan sentiment might turn rather sour against them.

 

[glazed]

What's the point then? Let's just shut down the club in that case and never do anything.

We should probably increase the intelligence of the discourse. Sacking ETH will not fix many of the problems. There is a huge danger that the next manager will try and avoid the problems altogether by regressing back to tactically outdated football, as Carrick did when he was briefly in charge. And that is the worst possible outcome.

We'll probably lose something like 10-12 players this year, though not all from the squad of course.

If we don't bring in at least 5 we'll be lucky to get close to top 4 next year too, whoever is manager.

The quality of players we need may not be available if we are seen as a graveyard of talent. And FFP means we can't buy our way out of this anyway.

Nah, I think we're going to do fine under a guy like Tuchel. Ten Hag has had some shit luck with injuries and he didn't do himself any favors with his tactics / transfers. The transfers we're going to fix this summer. The tactics through better coaching. The injuries through (hopefully) better luck.

It wasn't bad luck or bad coaching. Or rather those are superficial manifestations of a deeper problem. He had good players but not the right technical players for his coaching objective, and on top they often weren't fit enough so he had to overuse and overtrain the ones he did have. The best coach in the world can't make old man Ronaldo high press, or get Maguire and Evans to safely push up, or have Casemiro covering acres of ground, or make McT a good passer. They don't have it in them.

 

[pocco]

Hate journos, but so funny from Custis bursting Ten Hag's happy bubble that United didn't take a hammering for Arsenal.

Big summer for INEOS, if they don't get rid of ten Hag I think fan sentiment might turn rather sour against them.

It would be the worst move they could make. You could already write a book on 'how not to run a football club' based on our last 10 years, but this would be a new chapter in 'how not to take over a football club and instantly lose their faith in you'.

I really wanted Ineos but I think I'm just cynical at this stage, as I feel like everything we do will just be a new disaster. It feels like no matter what we do these days, it's just going to go very wrong.

 

[stevoc]

The absolute neck on this guy to suggest the “improvement” yesterday was the result of players carrying out his instructions as oppose to any tactical tweak

He didn't claim that surely?

 

[manichester]

A young forward line that have no guidance and do not look as they are coached in any way, they have talent but are not shown how to get the best from it.

 

[stevoc]

PL head to head record

Pep:
4 games
1 win
3 losses
-7 GD

Klopp:
4 games
1 win
2 draws
1 loss
-6 GD

Arteta:
4 games
1 win
3 losses
-2 GD

Emery:
4 games
3 wins
1 loss
+2 GD

Ange:
2 games
1 draw
1 loss
-2 GD

Howe:
3 games
1 draw
2 losses
-3 GD

Moyes:
4 games
2 wins
2 losses
+1 GD

Poch:
2 games
1 win
1 loss
0 GD

Iraola
2 games
1 draw
1 loss
-3 GD

De Zerbri:
2 games
2 losses
-3 GD

Frank:
4 games
2 wins
1 draw
1 loss
-2 GD

Conte:
1 game
1 win
+2 GD

Potter:
2 games
1 draw
1 loss
-1 GD

Updated after yesterday's loss.

His record vs the best coaches in the league is very poor. -24 GD. It's been that way across 2 seasons.

This is one of the biggest reasons why he has to go.

That's worse than I imagined.

 

[Castia]

Look the results are one thing we know he’s got a lot of injuries but it’s the performances even with a full squad that aren’t good enough win or lose. The football on show is shocking and I don’t believe even with a full squad and 2-3 additions in the summer that ETH can show us an exciting brand of football

An unknown manager comes in at Palace with a midfield of Hughes and Wharton can instantly change the style of play, Brighton with players like Lallana and Welbeck play nice football whats ETH’s excuse?

 

[Godfather]

We should probably increase the intelligence of the discourse. Sacking ETH will not fix many of the problems.

Well it will fix the problem of having a manager that is not good enough. Which is a good start.

 

[Djemba-Djemba]

Across the 2 seasons we've beaten one decent side away from home in any competition under ETH and that was Villa this year, where we didn't really deserve the 3 points but whatever.

Other than Moyes, who only had one year , all the other failed ex Utd managers here at least recorded a couple of big away wins at our traditional rivals

LVG had away wins at Liverpool and City and Arsenal
Mourinho had away wins at Arsenal and City and Juventus
Ole had away wins at Arsenal in the cup and multiple away wins at Chelsea and City and PSG

ETH has feck all.

 

[IrishRedDevil]

Can't even look at him anymore.

 

[troylocker]

United need 4 points from the last 2 games to avoid worst ever points total, +4 goals to avoid worst goal difference. Most losses ever in a PL season. And somehow the current points total flatters United. Honestly could be 5-6 points worse easily. Yet people will still make excuses for this clown show.

According to understat.com we've actually outperformed our expected points in the PL this season by 11 points and should be sitting 15th with 43 points based on chances created and conceded.
We have also outperformed goals conceded by 15 goals this season and should be have conceded 71 goals in the league alone based on chances conceded. Onana and inefficient oppo strikers has given us many points this season.

Some stats and ETH:

Defenses in the PL this season:
#16 - Manchester United : 70,51 expected goals conceded.
#17 - Burnley : : 74,14 expected goals conceded.
#18 - West Ham : : 75,59 expected goals conceded.
#19 - Sheffield United : 82,51 expected goals conceded.
#20 - Luton : : 90,53 expected goals conceded.

Top 3:
#1 - Arsenal : 31,12 expected goals conceded.
#2 - City : 35,19 expected goals conceded.
#3 - Liverpool : 43,95 expected goals conceded.

Expected points in the PL this season:
#15 - Manchester United : 42,87 expected points.
#16 - West Ham : 41,12 expected points.
#17 - Wolves : 39,78 expected points.
#18 - Burnley : 32,72 expected points.
#19 - Luton : 30,22 expected points.
#20 - Sheffield United : 28,42 expected points.

Top 3:
#1 - Arsenal : 79,11 expected points.
#2 - City : 78,28 expected points.
#3 - Liverpool : 73,07 expected points.

Expected egoals scored in the PL this season:
#12 - Manchester United : 57,83 expected goals scored.

#1 - Liverpool : 87,23 expected goals scored.
#2 - City : 84,53 expected goals scored.
#3 - Arsenal : 81,18 expected goals scored.

None of the other post Fergie manager have been anywhere close to having numbers like this. Not even remotely close.

Comparing him to other post Fergie managers:

Our expected points per game since the metric was introduced in the 14/15 season:

LVG
14/15 - 1,66 xPts/90
15/16 - 1,49 xPts/90
Sacked
Total in his reign: 1,58 xPts/90

Mourinho
16/17 - 1,87 xPts/90
17/18 - 1,64 xPts/90
18/19 (GW1-17) - 1,41 xPts/90
Sacked
Total in his reign: 1,69 xPts/90

Ole
18/19 (GW18-38) - 1,81 xPts/90
19/20 - 1,87 xPts/90
20/21 - 1,73 xPts/90
21/22 (GW1-12) - 1,30 xPts/90
Sacked
Total in his reign: 1,74 xPts/90

Ragnick
21/22 (GW13-38) - 1,50 xPts/90

ETH
22/23 - 1,75 xPts/90
23/24 - 1,19 xPts/90 ......over 36 games.
Total in his reign: 1,48 xPts/90

Defensive numbers since the expected goals against were introduced:

LVG
14/15 - 1,05 xGA/90
15/16 - 1,04 xGA/90
Sacked
Total in his reign: 1,04 xGA/90

Mourinho
16/17 - 0,83 xGA/90
17/18 - 1,15 xGA/90
18/19 (GW1-17) - 1,56 xGA/90
Sacked
Total in his reign: 1,09 xGA/90

Ole
18/19 (GW18-38) - 1,23 xGA/90
19/20 - 1,00 xGA/90
20/21 - 1,10 xGA/90
21/22 (GW1-12) - 1,76 xGA/90
Sacked
Total in his reign: 1,16 xGA/90

Ragnick
21/22 (GW13-38) - 1,38 xGA/90

ETH
22/23 - 1,32 xGA/90
23/24 - 1,96 xGA/90 !!!!
Total in his reign: 1,63 xGA/90 !!!

Ole and ETH has exact equal expected goals scored per 90 stats while in charge (1,75 xG/90), the difference is that since ETH took over we have consistantly become worse at finishing (goals vs. expected goals). Since 14/15 season here's our stats for finishing:
14/15 - overperformance by 14%
15/16 - overperformance by 8%
16/17 - underperformance by 6%
17/18 - overperformance by 15%
18/19 - underperformance by 5%
19/20 - on par
20/21 - overperformance by 16%
21/22 - on par
Average 6% overperformance

Under ETH
22/23 - underperformance by 19%
23/24 - underperformance by 10%
Average 15% underperformance.

What are they doing on the training field?

Looking at the these numbers it's actually mindblowing that he still has a job here.

 

[horsechoker]

Can't even look at him anymore.

Heh

 

[RedC]

Other than giving young players a chance what on pitch positives to move forward with has this season delivered?

Almost nothing, there have maybe been 3 or 4 genuinely good team performances all season, no sign of any combinations developing, or sustainable patterns of play or a a structure that the players understand and can deliver on.

It has been an utter shambles, and the results still massively flatter the performances.

Hide behind injuries, but what can you point to from the last season and a half as a sign of coaching development?

The main thing it has delivered is the clear demonstration to the new owners that we absolutely have to gut a large part of the squad. If we'd papered over cracks and gotten 4th then we may have been stuck with most of them for another year. Hopefully what the media is saying about the majority of the squad being up for sale is true, regardless of the manager situation.

 

[stevoc]

We should probably increase the intelligence of the discourse. Sacking ETH will not fix many of the problems. There is a huge danger that the next manager will try and avoid the problems altogether by regressing back to tactically outdated football, as Carrick did when he was briefly in charge. And that is the worst possible outcome.



The quality of players we need may not be available if we are seen as a graveyard of talent. And FFP means we can't buy our way out of this anyway.



It wasn't bad luck or bad coaching. Or rather those are superficial manifestations of a deeper problem. He had good players but not the right technical players for his coaching objective, and on top they often weren't fit enough so he had to overuse and overtrain the ones he did have. The best coach in the world can't make old man Ronaldo high press, or get Maguire and Evans to safely push up, or have Casemiro covering acres of ground, or make McT a good passer. They don't have it in them.

Any top level coach could have those two push up higher. @JPRouve made a very good post on this yesterday. Other teams play high defensive lines with centre backs not gifted with blistering pace.

If Casemiro didn't suit the football he wanted to play then why did he sign him? And remember he recently confirmed that he did indeed want him to play alongside DeJong.

McTominay can't pass well but Erik describes him as a very creative player. And for months has routinely picked him ahead of Eriksen who arguably the best passer of the ball in the squad.

Maybe it's Erik who doesn't have it in him. He's made in my opinion lots if poor decisions. It's possible the job is too big for him and the pressure is affecting his judgement. As he's obviously a decent coach.

 

[stevoc]

The main thing it has delivered is the clear demonstration to the new owners that we absolutely have to gut a large part of the squad. If we'd papered over cracks and gotten 4th then we may have been stuck with most of them for another year. Hopefully what the media is saying about the majority of the squad being up for sale is true, regardless of the manager situation.

By the start of next season we'll likely only have about 5-6 senior players who finished the 21-22 season. How much more gutting can realistically be done?

 

[RedC]

By the start of next season we'll likely only have about 5-6 senior players who finished the 21-22 season. How much more gutting can realistically be done?

Getting rid of Varane, Casemiro, Rashford, AWB, Maguire, and Lindelof would be a start. I could see the majority of them going.