Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

Status
Not open for further replies.
VP89 said:
Post is edited. By the way Melissa Reddy in the vid posted earlier also insinuates strongly he's had to deal with a feck ton that is probably not recognised in the right weight by casual fans, and that's why a lot at the club want him to succeed. He's not handling his defence well though.
Click to expand...

When you said I don't know the impact structural issues have on team building. You made it sound like you did but fair enough.

Ten Hag isn't handling it well, but then he isn't dealing with anything particularly well this season.

VP89 said:
Go back and look at where neutrals predicted the season - we were backed to be in top 4 by something like 8% of the predictions. You can also go back to the Overlap pre season stuff for fan sentiment, the standard skysports season predictors etc.

Not only did he walk top 4, with a very good tally (his first year had what, our 3rd highest point rank since SAF?), he also hit two finals and did manage to win a cup.

You ask what are we doing here - we are appearing to be in a rabbit hole debate because some posters (not you to be fair) hate the man so much that they don't want anyone to say Ten Hag isnt a bad manager, even if they agree he's not going to be around for us.
Click to expand...

Neutrals predicted United to have a bad season?

No surprise there really, it doesn't change the point though that finishing top 4 or at least getting 70+ points should be the minimum we should expect in a league campaign from a manager given as I said the talent and resources at their disposal. It takes a seriously dogshit season of underperfromance like the current one to not achieve one or both. And yes granted we've had a few of those in the last decade.
 
RedSky said:
Our League Form Up Until the League Cup Win:
Games​
W​
D​
L​
GF​
GA​
GD​
Pts​
Pts Per Game​
24​
15​
4​
5​
41​
28​
13​
49​
2.04​

Our League Form After the Cup Win:
Games​
W​
D​
L​
GF​
GA​
GD​
Pts​
Pts Per Game​
14​
8​
2​
4​
17​
15​
2​
26​
1.86​

All League Form Since the Cup Win:
Games​
W​
D​
L​
GF​
GA​
GD​
Pts​
Pts Per Game​
48​
24​
8​
16​
69​
66​
3​
80​
1.67​
​
You can see that it's been a downward spiral and our form since the Cup Win has really not been good. Yes in those 14 games we did manage to pick up a decent amount of points (Villa, City, Arsenal, Newcastle and Liverpool had higher Pts Per Game in the same range) but you can see the GD rot began at this point. It's simply continued and gotten worse this season. It's far more accurate to say that Ten Hag had a good first half of the season and the clubs good form ended with that Cup Win. Irrespective of reaching two finals, cup runs are not a good way to show a clubs progress and form.

I imagine we'll be in negative GD on the bottom table when the season is over.
Click to expand...

Basically we had a new manager bounce.
 
I know the injuries have been bad, but the people that use it as the main excuse do ignore the fact that the exact same issues occur whoever is playing, ever since that first game against Wolves. When Martinez and Shaw have played, we have also given away a ridiculous number of chances and we have also been unable to hold on to a lead.
 
I don't think last season is that impressive really, maybe if we'd kicked on this year, but it potentially being the peak of the Ten Hag era is pretty underwhelming really? We had a good patch of form, but a lot of it rested on it being a launching pad to a better second season for me anyway, which obviously hasn't arrived.

It gave hope and some promise, but a lot of that was based on good faith towards the manager and (some of) the squad, which has been mostly all lost now.
 
AndyMUFC said:
I know the injuries have been bad, but the people that use it as the main excuse do ignore the fact that the exact same issues occur whoever is playing, ever since that first game against Wolves. When Martinez and Shaw have played, we have also given away a ridiculous number of chances and we have also been unable to hold on to a lead.
Click to expand...

My old man was at the Wolves game and told me that it was going to be a long season based on that one game. Haha.

They really did cut through us like a hot knife through butter. Onana got away with the same punch he was penalised for yesterday.

 
Malone_Post said:
I’d love to know how these ‘structural issues’ impact ETH’s team selection, tactical set up & in game management. All of which have been absolutely horrific all season. And all of which were pointed out could be a flaw of his before he even took the job by our resident Eredivisie followers.

It’s just another buzzword with no real meaning for his fans to hide behind while they bury their heads deeper and deeper in the sand. They’re losing the plot almost as much as he is.
Click to expand...

I'd be genuinely interested if someone does have any insight into how it could affect (in a tangible sense) the way he sets his team up, game management and the tactical ineptitude on show this season etc. People hold it up as a reason why he's struggled and/or why he should be given more time. But I suspect it's had little or no impact game to game.
 
Rista said:
Remember when people used to say "give him until december to see what happens"? I'm seeing the same members saying they want to give him another season now and yet we've been as bad as ever this whole time. It will never change. If he somehow stays then next season it will be "new structure needs time to bed in".
Click to expand...

There has always been these weird little cults that form on this forum that unequivocally backed each manager post SAF.
 
AndyMUFC said:
I know the injuries have been bad, but the people that use it as the main excuse do ignore the fact that the exact same issues occur whoever is playing, ever since that first game against Wolves. When Martinez and Shaw have played, we have also given away a ridiculous number of chances and we have also been unable to hold on to a lead.
Click to expand...

It's been this way since we won the League Cup, last season in February. Wolves at the start of this season was more a continuation.
 
the perception of first season here is so inflated in so many people’s eyes too. crazy
 
He's one of the most plodding, uncharismatic managers I've ever heard talk. I'm not surprised a lot of the players don't seem to be listening to him.
 
Judas said:
I don't think last season is that impressive really, maybe if we'd kicked on this year, but it potentially being the peak of the Ten Hag era is pretty underwhelming really? We had a good patch of form, but a lot of it rested on it being a launching pad to a better second season for me anyway, which obviously hasn't arrived.

It gave hope and some promise, but a lot of that was based on good faith towards the manager and (some of) the squad, which has been mostly all lost now.
Click to expand...

Rashfords 3-4 months of world class form covered up a lot of the problems.
 
If they've already made the decision to move him on at the end of the season then aside from a financial issue, there's no reason to keep him until then. The club should be giving themselves the best possible chance of winning the FA Cup and qualifying for Europe, that means someone else managing for the 5 games left.
 
stevoc said:
I can't watch his interviews they're depressing. What did he say about Scott?
Click to expand...
I'm defending him a lot but at this rate I wouldn't be surprised if he said McT enables them to play dynamic sexy football and is a Scottish Zidane.
 
AndyMUFC said:
I know the injuries have been bad, but the people that use it as the main excuse do ignore the fact that the exact same issues occur whoever is playing, ever since that first game against Wolves. When Martinez and Shaw have played, we have also given away a ridiculous number of chances and we have also been unable to hold on to a lead.
Click to expand...

Yup. In fact, it was evident in the pre-season game against Lens at OT where they cut through us with ease. The fact this problem is still there and we're almost at the end of the season smacks of incompetency by ETH and his coaching staff.
 
Atheist said:
During the 18/19 season, we had a similar number of injuries and finished 6th. https://www.si.com/soccer/2019/06/1...uries-each-club-suffered-during-201819-season

We also sacked Mourinho halfway through the season. I’m sure no one started using injuries as an excuse to give him another season, and we were also more decisive in taking action there. No one debates we were wrong to sack him. Injuries simply cannot be used as excuses to reward managers with another season at the helm. What if we have a similar number of injuries next year? Are we going to make similar excuses again?
Click to expand...
It's crazy when you think about it. It wasn't really that long ago that we thought bad results were unacceptable. And now not only are we not sacking a manager for having a similar season to Mourinho's but we have fans calling for him to be given another year. Imagine if Mourihno not only survived that season but was given another. Simply on the basis that he previously finished 2nd and won the EL so he can't have been a bad manager.
 
DomesticTadpole said:
Basically the ball sticks to his foot and he is our KDB. Probably exagerating a bit.
Click to expand...
JPRouve said:
He is creative and keep can the ball.
Click to expand...
roonster09 said:
Scott can do whatever Modric can do and ping long pass like Kroos.
Click to expand...

:lol:

I thought you were all taking the piss as none of those claims are any less ludicrous than the next. Then curiosity got the better of me and he did say the second one.

I'm done with this season, I can't take any more of this shite.

:lol:
 
Atheist said:
During the 18/19 season, we had a similar number of injuries and finished 6th. https://www.si.com/soccer/2019/06/1...uries-each-club-suffered-during-201819-season

We also sacked Mourinho halfway through the season. I’m sure no one started using injuries as an excuse to give him another season, and we were also more decisive in taking action there. No one debates we were wrong to sack him. Injuries simply cannot be used as excuses to reward managers with another season at the helm. What if we have a similar number of injuries next year? Are we going to make similar excuses again?
Click to expand...
Can you imagine having to suffer another injury ridden season like this one again? Let‘s hope not.

Injuries are a mitigating factor but won‘t save a manager who is massively underperforming.
 
The large section of our good football last season was before the cup final. Pretty much whilst we were adjusting to his methods. Since his process kicked in we have been very poor and struggle to get a grip on games, conceding way too much possession and attempts away. He’s not as good as people make out - why should we be giving him more time?
 
Who's Kissing Cameras? said:
Any prominent examples? With a major club in the top 5 leagues?
Click to expand...

Guardiola would be an obvious example. He was into his last year in 2022 when he signed his last extension in November. He was even on a rolling one-year deal at Barcelona.

Moyes' contract is up for expiry at the end of the season, and Dyche, Iraola, and Pochettino will all be in their final year next season and none of them are getting a renewal before showing some form next seaaon.

Ancelotti was also in his final year at Madrid, with him even being close to taking the Brazil job, before signing an extension in December. All seems fine there. Flick was in the final year of his deal when he won a treble at Bayern. All good there too.

With time and effort, I could probably find a lot of other examples, but seeing as I'm not the person who randomly made something up, I don't believe that burden should fall on me.
 
soapythecat said:
The large section of our good football last season was before the cup final. Pretty much whilst we were adjusting to his methods. Since his process kicked in we have been very poor and struggle to get a grip on games, conceding way too much possession and attempts away. He’s not as good as people make out - why should we be giving him more time?
Click to expand...

The big section of good football last season was after getting Casemiro in alongside Eriksen as 2 holding mids and playing conservatively. Relying heavily on Rashford creating a lot of goals out of very little.

The good football (in the sense of us generally dominating poor teams and being defensively ok) stopped the second ETH started tinkering and trying the "best transition team in the world" bullshit. The more he leaves his mark, the worse we get in every department.
 
VP89 said:
It is horrible. No team has had the level of injuries concentrated in defence as we have.

Teams would rather have one more injury overall but spread out in different positions, than to have a lot of injuries that effectively entirely decimates the defence. Horrible is the only word to describe our injury situation.

Last season was more than solid. Wind back to all the predictions and the neutrals didn't have us in top 4. He ended up walking it with 8pts between him at 3rd and Liverpool in 5th. He also did it whilst getting to two Cup finals and winning one.

Im not saying that this season isn't horrible by his standards or any standard by the way. I'm saying he has had to deal with a feck ton that many of us don't know about and the injury and structural frailties are pretty massive weights on any coach. He's still been shite this season. But he was very good last season.

One bad season doesn't make a manager bad. He may not be the guy for us, and that's fine. But he's not a bad manager.
Click to expand...
All well and good but then i remember that it’s his decisions, his tactics and his coaching .
 
I did not watch the game yesterday but seems like another result that just confirms that he can't keep his job. We won't even reach 60 points mark so this'll be another 21/22 season repeating only 2 years after it happened.

If we beat City, it'll be a fluke so even that can't save him. And chances are we aren't beating them and will probably look worse than we did against them last year.
 
The same person who did an "exclusive" about Ten Hag feeling he has been hung out to dry by the United board, also deleted a story about Antony's son loving Sonic. Many are thinking the oddly specific Antony story means its coming from Antony or Ten Hag himself.
 
VP89 said:
It is horrible. No team has had the level of injuries concentrated in defence as we have.

Teams would rather have one more injury overall but spread out in different positions, than to have a lot of injuries that effectively entirely decimates the defence. Horrible is the only word to describe our injury situation.

Last season was more than solid. Wind back to all the predictions and the neutrals didn't have us in top 4. He ended up walking it with 8pts between him at 3rd and Liverpool in 5th. He also did it whilst getting to two Cup finals and winning one.

Im not saying that this season isn't horrible by his standards or any standard by the way. I'm saying he has had to deal with a feck ton that many of us don't know about and the injury and structural frailties are pretty massive weights on any coach. He's still been shite this season. But he was very good last season.

One bad season doesn't make a manager bad. He may not be the guy for us, and that's fine. But he's not a bad manager.
Click to expand...
Do you think last season was as good as this one has been bad?
 
TrebleChamp99 said:
Agree completely, its almost unheard of to get a Klopp or to have the set up that City have to get someone like pep in, SAF wasnt a once in a generation, he is once in a lifetime kids born today will not likely see a better manager than him so we are chasing an impossible dream if we think we will find another SAF. Never again, maybe in 200 years.

So I am of the opinion that managers should be given a max of 2 years to prove themselves but only if there are genuine signs that they need more time.

Not if they are 6 months in and we still cant anchor ourselves on a style, methodology or a tangible improvement we should simply cut ties and move on.

I actually think managers should only ever have 2 year contracts.
Click to expand...

Not sure I entirely agree about SAF being this "once in a lifetime" talent as I think it's more complicated than that.

SAF's first full season with United was 1987/88. We had five full seasons with SAF before we won the title and two of those seasons we finished 11th and 13th.....13th!! Fergie would not have kept his job in today's climate. That season we finished 13th we also ended up with a minus goal difference.

My point is that without backing SAF then we would never have had those glory years that turned into an era. My point does not offer solutions-it only creates more confusion as it might mean we need to find a manager to hang our hat on and stick with him. For the record, I am not sure ETH is that man.
 
BenitoSTARR said:
So why don’t we finally hold the player accountable and improve that aspect first. Otherwise we replace Ten Hag and it’s another clean slate for them. The personnel are not good enough.

When Ten Hag’s team have sat back deeper and relied on blocks everyone here is moaning about the shots conceded (irrespective of the fact they are low quality, rarely make it on target and aren’t the same as conceding big chances).

For what it’s worth @RedRocket08 I think you’re completely reasonable to believe all of what you have said.
Click to expand...

We definitely should. At least I hope INEOS and the new structure do this with the players, and ship some of these faces out in the Summer. They should also assess how much accountability ETH should take as well here, and assess whether he'll fix those issues with a proper squad, if he stays. Both these things would happen effectively/simultaneously if we had a football-first hierarchy set up before he got here.

I'm now indifferent to who comes in and coaches us until those structural changes take effect. I honestly don't think any new coach (Even if his name is Guardiola) is going to do that much better here, in fact I'm keen to see what the most ardent ETH-out fans think when the next guy eventually fails spectacularly as well (and they will until we sort out our players and structure).

With ETH, I'd excuse him for losing against the top 4-6 but we really shouldn't be taking as many losses/draws against these weaker teams - I'd be happy even if we ended 6th this season but without these silly defeats / draws. If I were INEOS, I'd try to understand why that's the case and how much of that is attributable to ETH as well? It's a tough call to make on him either way mate which is why I try to stay out of these polls - he's had a lot of really bad mitigating factors that he's dealt with well, but he hasn't helped himself by losing quite a few games that are winnable even with some of our poor-quality players.
 
Ronaldo's Love Child said:
Not sure I entirely agree about SAF being this "once in a lifetime" talent as I think it's more complicated than that.

SAF's first full season with United was 1987/88. We had five full seasons with SAF before we won the title and two of those seasons we finished 11th and 13th.....13th!! Fergie would not have kept his job in today's climate. That season we finished 13th we also ended up with a minus goal difference.

My point is that without backing SAF then we would never have had those glory years that turned into an era. My point does not offer solutions-it only creates more confusion as it might mean we need to find a manager to hang our hat on and stick with him. For the record, I am not sure ETH is that man.
Click to expand...

I'm in that same camp as well - We need to give a manager time (4-5 seasons) while holding players accountable, but unsure if ETH is 'the guy'. Whoever the guy is, I'm sure we'll all agree half of these players need to go at least by Summer '25.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.