Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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Rashford's goals were worth 16 points last season.

75 - 16 = 59 points. We'll probably finish on 54-57 points.

ETH had a par first season because of Oleball tactics and the chief moments player in that system showing up big time.
 
RedRocket08 said:
I'm in that same camp as well - We need to give a manager time (4-5 seasons) while holding players accountable, but unsure if ETH is 'the guy'. Whoever the guy is, I'm sure we'll all agree half of these players need to go at least by Summer '25.
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You can't argue that players must be held accountable, whilst also arguing a manager should be given half a decade no questions asked, because at that point the manager isn't being held accountable. That would be foolish in an organisation of any size.

The right manager will naturally get 5 years and more because they earn it. No managers since Ferguson have earned it and they have rightly been sacked. Unfortunately the same can't be said about many of our players, who get rewarded regardless of performance. That obviously needs to change, but that doesn't mean we blame everything on the players and ignore poor management.
 
Jev said:
Alright. Because that sometimes sounds like the argument made when talking about one good and one bad season, as if they add up. It’s more of a +1 and a -3.
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The argument being made is one bad season in a management career of 6-7 years isn't the be all and end all in judging pedigree.
 
VP89 said:
The argument being made is one bad season in a management career of 6-7 years isn't the be all and end all in judging pedigree.
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Considering that you seem to consider last season a great season by all standards and Ten Hag working wonders, to what degree were the players responsible for any of that? And if so, to what degree are they responsible for this seasons under performance also? If there’s a surprise that the manager performed so well in a league he knew little about then surely the players did most of the work for him?

Also, there’s a point being glossed over in last years ‘brilliant season’. We didn’t win away to any top 9 club in the entire season, including some absolute hammerings. This season that extended to most clubs in the PL. It’s almost like someone got worked out and doesn’t know how to change their approach…
 
Lee565 said:
I'm not buying the defensive injuries as an excuse for the state of our season, he messed up our left back issues in the transfer window this season and it has only been in the last few games where we have to play casimero there but at the same time has completely exposed our defence all season with his tactics allowing the opposition to easily walk through our midfield, something that may not have been as easy if we had fred's energy and legs in there.
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Fred was sold at the right time; it is an example of how we should handle transfers. Sell them before they deteriorate because of age.

Ten Hag was told he would have two left backs available in January by the medical staff. It is silly to blame this on him.

We can‘t play any strategy with this squad except sitting in a low block and countering. 10Hag is trying to build a team that can press high, build out the back and attack with speed.

What are your ideas of making better use of the squad? Instead of just complaining.

I think next season we should strengthen the squad with players who can defend higher up the pitch, are brave and good on the ball.
 
crossy1686 said:
Considering that you seem to consider last season a great season by all standards and Ten Hag working wonders, to what degree were the players responsible for any of that? And if so, to what degree are they responsible for this seasons under performance also? If there’s a surprise that the manager performed so well in a league he knew little about then surely the players did most of the work for him?

Also, there’s a point being glossed over in last years ‘brilliant season’. We didn’t win away to any top 9 club in the entire season, including some absolute hammerings. This season that extended to most clubs in the PL. It’s almost like someone got worked out and doesn’t know how to change their approach…
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The players were a big part of the steps forward for last season. But some key players, namely casemiro and Eriksen had injuries or downward trends in form in that same campaign. They also happen to be the players whos legs are naturally going.

Then you have players like Lindelof who hasn't really been able to string together games post surgery, or martial, licha and Shaw who essentially haven't really played this campaign.

I dont think players have let Ten Hag down this season, barring one (Rashford). This season is a mix of concentrated injuries, managerial failings for tactics and structural uncertainty causing a host of issues behind the scenes.
 
VP89 said:
The argument being made is one bad season in a management career of 6-7 years isn't the be all and end all in judging pedigree.
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Why would we judge his suitability as a United manager on what he did under totally different circumstances at other clubs?
 
Been ETH in. But if there was either a “not bothered” or “sack if there’s a better alternative”. Then I’d change.

Main issue is, not saying ETH is not an issue, but we really need to get rid of players like Rashford etc. Otherwise the next manager will have the same dilemma.

Edit: just seen it’s a sack now or wait until after cup final vote.

He got us to the final, very little chance of CL. Let him finish the season regardless.
 
RedRocket08 said:
I'm in that same camp as well - We need to give a manager time (4-5 seasons) while holding players accountable, but unsure if ETH is 'the guy'. Whoever the guy is, I'm sure we'll all agree half of these players need to go at least by Summer '25.
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Why?

After 1-2 seasons you'll know if the guy isn't working out. You can't say we're giving a guy 5 years regardless of results and performance.

What happens if you're hovering above the relegation zone in year 3, after spending £400-500m?
 
Are fans from other clubs voting again who want to keep Ten Hag? The yes has gone up to 39% already, I don’t believe that among United fans.
 
NLunited said:
Fred was sold at the right time; it is an example of how we should handle transfers. Sell them before they deteriorate because of age.

Ten Hag was told he would have two left backs available in January by the medical staff. It is silly to blame this on him.

We can‘t play any strategy with this squad except sitting in a low block and countering. 10Hag is trying to build a team that can press high, build out the back and attack with speed.

What are your ideas of making better use of the squad? Instead of just complaining.

I think next season we should strengthen the squad with players who can defend higher up the pitch, are brave and good on the ball.
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Where did this info come from?
 
VP89 said:
The argument being made is one bad season in a management career of 6-7 years isn't the be all and end all in judging pedigree.
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On the other hand, how many of them were genuinely good seasons? That's a serious question by the way, as I'm not sure how each of his Ajax seasons would actually be rated.

A fairly quick look into it::

17/18 - Joined Ajax halfway through the season, they improved a little but not enough to win the Eredivisie. Neutral season.
18/19 - Won the Eredivisie and got to the semi's of the CL. Great season.
19/20 - Didn't get out of their CL group and got knocked out of the Europa early. Was only on top of the Eredivisie on goal difference at the time the season was cancelled due to Covid. I'd say that was a bad season considering Ajax's advantages in the league.
20/21 - Dominated the Eredivisie, but got knocked out of the Europa at the quarters. Good season.
21/22 - Won the Eredivisie by two points, started the CL well by winning all their group games but then got knocked out by Benfica in the next round. Good season if we're being kind.
22/23 - Joined Man Utd and finished third in the league but was on the end of a few embarrassing scorelines and didn't win an away match against any remotely decent team. Won the League Cup, got to the final of the FA Cup, lost in the quarters of the Europa. Good season, certainly not 'very good'.
23/24 - Atrocious season, will very likely go down as Utd's worst in PL history.

So while he's been mostly good, it's not like he's been clear-cut great or even good up until now.

If there are any Ajax fans reading this, I would be interested to know if they'd rate those seasons similarly to how I have.
 
Jev said:
Why would we judge his suitability as a United manager on what he did under totally different circumstances at other clubs?
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You've entered the debate half way and haven't seen my original point.
 
MadDogg said:
On the other hand, how many of them were genuinely good seasons? That's a serious question by the way, as I'm not sure how each of his Ajax seasons would actually be rated.

A fairly quick look into it::

17/18 - Joined Ajax halfway through the season, they improved a little but not enough to win the Eredivisie. Neutral season.
18/19 - Won the Eredivisie and got to the semi's of the CL. Great season.
19/20 - Didn't get out of their CL group and got knocked out of the Europa early. Was only on top of the Eredivisie on goal difference at the time the season was cancelled due to Covid. I'd say that was a bad season considering Ajax's advantages in the league.
20/21 - Dominated the Eredivisie, but got knocked out of the Europa at the quarters. Good season.
21/22 - Won the Eredivisie by two points, started the CL well by winning all their group games but then got knocked out by Benfica in the next round. Good season if we're being kind.
22/23 - Joined Man Utd and finished third in the league but was on the end of a few embarrassing scorelines and didn't win an away match against any remotely decent team. Won the League Cup, got to the final of the FA Cup, lost in the quarters of the Europa. Good season, certainly not 'very good'.
23/24 - Atrocious season, will very likely go down as Utd's worst in PL history.

So while he's been mostly good, it's not like he's been clear-cut great or even good up until now.

If there are any Ajax fans reading this, I would be interested to know if they'd rate those seasons similarly to how I have.
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That last season at Ajax? Didn't he lose the cup final against PSV?
 
Leftback99 said:
69 goals in 48 games (1.4 pg) is horrendous.
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And we’re averaging 2.3 goals per game since January… an upward trend.
Atheist said:
During the 18/19 season, we had a similar number of injuries and finished 6th. https://www.si.com/soccer/2019/06/1...uries-each-club-suffered-during-201819-season

We also sacked Mourinho halfway through the season. I’m sure no one started using injuries as an excuse to give him another season, and we were also more decisive in taking action there. No one debates we were wrong to sack him. Injuries simply cannot be used as excuses to reward managers with another season at the helm. What if we have a similar number of injuries next year? Are we going to make similar excuses again?
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https://x.com/Jayling77/status/1784535496732844048

This one is worse.
 
stevoc said:
Where did this info come from?
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Pretty sure it was an Athletic article or something similar.

Ten Hag was given news by our medical team that both Shaw and Malacia would be available for United in January, so with three left backs on the books, he sent Reguilon back.

Then one of our long term medical staff was fired not long after this was meant to have happened.
 
DSG said:
Ten Hag has the dubious distinction of being the odds on favorite to leave/be sacked the soonest out of all PL managers.

6-1

https://bookies.com/uk/news/next-pr...cked-pochettino-under-fire-after-arsenal-loss

I wonder if it’s going to be when we are officially out of the CL places / top 4?
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Encouraging, but I have my doubts....especially given how ETH seems to have an uncanny ability deliver an unexpected result when people least expect it (thinking of wins against last year's top 4 and the Liverpool FA Cup this year). Therefore if we get a result against Arsenal, he will at a minimum get to remain until the end of this season.
 
BenitoSTARR said:
And we’re averaging 2.3 goals per game since January… an upward trend.
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There is also a downward trend in goals conceded since January, which helps explain why United's ppg in the league has only marginally improved since then (1.55 to 1.64).
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
There is also a downward trend in goals conceded since January, which helps explain why United's ppg in the league has only marginally improved since then (1.55 to 1.64).
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We’re having to sacrifice some defensive stability to make the long term attacking gain (given we’ve had less injuries in the front line).

It’s also a result of the continued injuries in the back line.

For example we now have:
Shaw
Martinez
Malacia
Evans
Lindelof
Varane
Kwambala

All out injured at the same time now.
 
Raoul said:
Encouraging, but I have my doubts....especially given how ETH seems to have an uncanny ability deliver an unexpected result when people least expect it (thinking of wins against last year's top 4 and the Liverpool FA Cup this year). Therefore if we get a result against Arsenal, he will at a minimum get to remain until the end of this season.
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So, we’ve been mathematically eliminated from top 4, yes? We have 54 pts, AstonVilla 67. 4 matches remaining, unless we are expecting to get a 5th CL spot.

‘I suppose if we let him go now, we pay more — but not much more in compensation, £1.2m for the rest of this season (5 matches) and 6.75m for next season. If we win the FA cup final, we earn 2m, if we lose, 1m.

‘The financial hit on where we finish in the league is pretty eye-popping. So by not finishing in the top 4 and making the CL spots, we lose out on roughly 65m-80m in CL revenue. Plus, by finishing 6th or 7th in the league, we’ll make 10m-25m less than the top 4.

On the low end of the range, that’s 75m in revenue lost and at the high end 105m.

Thus, our projected net spend this summer is 100m whereas last summer was 200m.

I don’t think the Ten Hag in crew really understand how damaging it is to finish out of the CL spots and further down the table.
 
Stinkypete said:
Pretty sure it was an Athletic article or something similar.

Ten Hag was given news by our medical team that both Shaw and Malacia would be available for United in January, so with three left backs on the books, he sent Reguilon back.

Then one of our long term medical staff was fired not long after this was meant to have happened.
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Even if true seems like a risk to bank on a guy who's just had two operations and Shaw who's had a shit time with injuries this season.
 
stevoc said:
Ah from Ten Hag himself it makes sense now. It wouldn't have been his fault of course.
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Also what are you expecting here? Are you expecting the medical team to take the press conference and say “yeah we said that”.

Like why can you not just accept his word on this?
 
CL quali isn't officially off the cards until the next round of European ties happen. Then any German team winning I think confirms they get the extra spot.
 
didz said:
Guardiola would be an obvious example. He was into his last year in 2022 when he signed his last extension in November. He was even on a rolling one-year deal at Barcelona.

Moyes' contract is up for expiry at the end of the season, and Dyche, Iraola, and Pochettino will all be in their final year next season and none of them are getting a renewal before showing some form next seaaon.

Ancelotti was also in his final year at Madrid, with him even being close to taking the Brazil job, before signing an extension in December. All seems fine there. Flick was in the final year of his deal when he won a treble at Bayern. All good there too.

With time and effort, I could probably find a lot of other examples, but seeing as I'm not the person who randomly made something up, I don't believe that burden should fall on me.
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Fair enough mate, I’ll admit I’m wrong there.
 
hobbers said:
CL quali isn't officially off the cards until the next round of European ties happen. Then any German team winning I think confirms they get the extra spot.
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Honestly, I think that if that mattered, we'd probably have signed a forward on loan in January. It seems as though we're too close to the PSR limit for a payout, even a reduced one.

Besides, it's better for INEOS if their first decisive move to affect the playing squad comes after this season is done. They don't want to start making a decision that could make things even worse. And yes, they can get worse, or that associate themselves with the stink of the season gone. If you want a date for the calendar, July 1st is the one to look for by my best guess.

Who's Kissing Cameras? said:
Fair enough mate, I’ll admit I’m wrong there.
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Fair play mate, I was expecting you to call me some names or something.
 
NLunited said:
Can you imagine having to suffer another injury ridden season like this one again? Let‘s hope not.

Injuries are a mitigating factor but won‘t save a manager who is massively underperforming.
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Im pretty concerned if Ten Hag doesn’t change his tactics, we might end up with a similar situation if we end up giving him another year.
BenitoSTARR said:
And we’re averaging 2.3 goals per game since January… an upward trend.

https://x.com/Jayling77/status/1784535496732844048

This one is worse.
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And? We’re likely to end on far fewer points and GD, and most number of defeats in a PL season. The manager deserves to be sacked without questions just like Mourinho. I’m surprised there’s even a debate. We have evidently reduced the standards we aspire to from managers if we’re willing to tolerate the failures we’ve seen this season.
 
BenitoSTARR said:
We’re having to sacrifice some defensive stability to make the long term attacking gain (given we’ve had less injuries in the front line).

It’s also a result of the continued injuries in the back line.

For example we now have:
Shaw
Martinez
Malacia
Evans
Lindelof
Varane
Kwambala

All out injured at the same time now.
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What I still find funny is I haven’t spoken to a United fan, face to face, that’s actually desperate for ETH to be let go. Most seem to think another season wouldn’t be the worse given where the club is at. I’m still at that point , wouldn’t complain if he was let go but understand there’s other reasons why we’d keep him.
 
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