Well what do you think of our style of play and performances since the 2023 League Cup final?
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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Well what do you think of our style of play and performances since the 2023 League Cup final?
I can see the style of play, I think. I believe I can see what he's trying to do. When people say "what's the identity!?" I tend to think they didn't really look at what Ten Hag's career has actually been before he joined us, in a tactical sense. He's always been focused on transitions, he just happened to merge his ideas with Ajax to good effect. He's the least Dutch Dutchman of them all.
For me, he's trying to get us to play pretty much like Liverpool in Klopp's first ~3 seasons, but with creativity coming from the two 8/10s rather than the fullbacks, possibly because that's what's in the squad. He wants us to defend and attack ambitiously.
And I would say he's been far too ambitious this season. In fact I would say that in that final, we were too ambitious, and we'd have been handily beaten if Casemiro hadn't played out of his skin that day. Now, with nobody suited to it, he's not just doubling down on his ideal, he's bottoming out on it. He needs aggressive defenders who can move the ball up the park and cover space for this to work. They're all out. He needs a superhuman DM to handle defensive and attacking transitions on his own. He doesn't have one. He needs a clinical finisher to put away chances even after running half the length of the pitch to get on the end of them. He's off the boil.
Ten Hag needed a little too much before it all fell apart this season. That's the reason I think he'll probably end up gone. It's a shame because he could have been a success here, I feel, but either he came too early or Ratcliffe came too late.
I never said that though did I?
He got advised and made a decision based on that. Still his decision though and his responsibility.
Genuinely no idea what you're talking about now mate. Where did I imply he was lying?
Yeah turns out being the manager of one of the world's biggest football clubs is really difficult.
Who knew?
It's not an advice. It's an estimation of someone recovery which can easily be altered in the future. I don't know if it's the barrier language and I hope that it is but ETH's statement has always been strange to me because it gives the impression that the concept of relapses doesn't exist.
And to answer your question in principle, you don't consider that someone is fit until they actually are.
Seems pretty easy according to the Caf
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Perhaps. But I would argue the one area of the pitch where we’ve had some consistency in personnel we’ve seen improvement.
That feels like it’s a positive.
Is it a reduction in standards or a recognition of the wider context that we are from head to toe far from being a sporting giant. Currently we’re just a commercial one in the footballing world now.
I do know a fan in real life who is Ten Hag out. He’s 13 and wants us to sign Mbappe in the summer
.Nephews aside, my friends and few work colleagues who are United fans (and sister/brother in law) are either ambivalent or wanting to give him a bit more time.
Maybe it’s just my bubble but I’m yet to meet someone passionately against him.
It’s your tone Steve. If you had said “Thanks for sharing” then it would look like you’re accepting this information.Genuinely no idea what you're talking about now mate. Where did I imply he was lying?
How you worded it makes it seem like you’re doubting the legitimacy.
Yes still his decision he took the decision he was advised would be best. Good managers delegate that way. Especially if they aren’t trained medical professionals.
The Malacia thing is totally on the medical department not paying close enough attention to players. This article paints a grim picture, and one which seems to be no more than a repetition of past failings. I've already made a long post about this somewhere so I won't bang on about it more, but I think that's clearly not on Ten Hag.
He's always extremely closed on injury issues, rarely giving timeframes, often referring to illness or injury interchangeably, and basically giving as little away as possible on those. If he says he thought he'd have them, he was convinced he would, to my eye anyway.
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I think if we’re using a relapse after being advised of them returning to full fitness as a stick to beat a manager with we may aswell give up our managerial search and instead hire fortune tellers.
It absolutely is advice. He was being advised by his medical teams. What else would we call it?
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/advice
Will be interesting to see if there is any news tomorrow with us being officially out of UCL contention now.
If they were waiting for that then...
If they were waiting for that then...
I used to want that. Now I just want us to get in a winner, who manifests tangible results quickly. The window of opportunity had gone and I don't think we'll be seeing anything like that again... Times have changed unfortunately
It won't matter.
You know that because?
Perhaps what I said didn't bring out the intended meaning: I think, like the current top 3 sides in the PL, it would be beneficial to pick a manager we're confident will give us steady progress and to stick with them for an extended period of 4-5 years. Ferguson himself didn't earn it till about 4-5 years in tbf, perhaps the owners at the time saw a certain level of progress. This doesn't mean giving a free pass to a manager nor sticking with him even if he takes us to a relegation battle, ideally our leadership on the football side should set targets (which change over time based on the state of the squad, and may change even during the season) for our managers to achieve. If they don't achieve those targets we should do a bit of an audit and figure out if they're specific coaching issues the manager can/cannot fix, if they're player centric issues, or if they're other issues (football execs, medical department etc.). If there are coaching issues or man management issues that can be rectified and the current one is not doing it - then we go out and get a new manager. On the spending side as well, that shouldn't be dumped on the manager - A manager should be able to approve a spending decision, but the ultimate decision should sit with a DoF / recruitment team.
Applying this to ETH: The sort of mitigating circumstances he's had to work with are a relatively unbalanced/mediocre/ageing squad when he started, off-field player issues which made it hard to fill certain positions, injuries, and lack of a clear footballing structure which resulted in a scattergun transfer approach (in which the manager had to be more involved in). For me all of these things have contributed to our poor form this season, and Ten Hag himself hasn't been able to rectify how easily oppos we should beat (e.g. bottom 10 in the PL) cut through our team - Ideally, Berrarda, Wilcox, Ashworth etc. should all get together and assess how much Ten Hag has contributed to the problem, and how much those other factors have contributed, and then make the decision as to whether they keep him or not.
I'm not saying all this to make a case for keeping ETH, I do think his tactics have left us open through the centre all season and that needs to change, he's definitely at fault for some things we haven't done right on the pitch - but getting another coach (interim or next season) and putting them through the same process as Ten Hag will lead to that manager's capitulation as well, and we'll just keep coming back to square one here.
I (obviously) don't know it, but I strongly suspect based on what we did in January that were so close the PSR line that we can't afford to sack Ten Hag, even on reduced terms. That's without the cup final he got us in on the horizon.
July 1st though, happy hanging day, I guess.
So when ETH tells you that the medical staff initially estimated both should be back in January, you spin it into the medical staff advised to cancel/shorten Regulon's loan?
Am I understanding correctly?
Edit: You can ignore this, we already had that conversation.
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Last two seasons has been mirrored with Liverpool.
Last Season
Man United finished 3rd in the Premier League and won the League cup that exceeded expectations for a lot of supporters
Liverpool a real injury hit season didn't reach the Champions league or win a trophy
This Season
Man United a real injury hit season didn't reach the Champions league and probably won't win a trophy with City to play in the FA Cup final
Liverpool will finish 3rd in the Premier League and won the league cup and according to the likes of Jamie Carragher they have "over performed" this season
Last Season
Man United finished 3rd in the Premier League and won the League cup that exceeded expectations for a lot of supporters
Liverpool a real injury hit season didn't reach the Champions league or win a trophy
This Season
Man United a real injury hit season didn't reach the Champions league and probably won't win a trophy with City to play in the FA Cup final
Liverpool will finish 3rd in the Premier League and won the league cup and according to the likes of Jamie Carragher they have "over performed" this season
Ron Atkinson had won two FA Cups, club was finishing in top 4-5 consistently but the club sacked him after a really poor start to the season. If the idea was to back a manager even when things are going badly they would have just stick with him and never even appointed SAF.
Time is not going to help a manager who isn’t good enough, there is nothing to suggest ETH or any of the other successors to SAF deserved any more than they got.
Liverpool have had a lot of injuries this year, mate. The difference is they strengthened better than we did.
Perhaps. But I would argue the one area of the pitch where we’ve had some consistency in personnel we’ve seen improvement.
That feels like it’s a positive.
Is it a reduction in standards or a recognition of the wider context that we are from head to toe far from being a sporting giant. Currently we’re just a commercial one in the footballing world now.
I do know a fan in real life who is Ten Hag out. He’s 13 and wants us to sign Mbappe in the summer
Nephews aside, my friends and few work colleagues who are United fans (and sister/brother in law) are either ambivalent or wanting to give him a bit more time.
Maybe it’s just my bubble but I’m yet to meet someone passionately against him.
It’s your tone Steve. If you had said “Thanks for sharing” then it would look like you’re accepting this information.
How you worded it makes it seem like you’re doubting the legitimacy.
Yes still his decision he took the decision he was advised would be best. Good managers delegate that way. Especially if they aren’t trained medical professionals.
Well if you misinterpreted it fair enough.
I said it makes sense Ten Hag was the one thst made that public. And he's doing it to shift blame from himself.
That post wouldn't really make sense if I was also implying he was lying, which I of course wasn't.
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Real tough choice for the new senior management to make.
It seems as if the choice now is between him and Tuchel.
It seems as if the choice now is between him and Tuchel.
Nah.
That's bollocks and you know it. Their players have outperformed ours, they are higher in the table and didn't waste money.
That’s not solely because of the summer signings though.
I appreciate bolded mate. I can see where you're coming from better. And I dont disagree fir the most part. Ultimately Klopp and Pep have been in the same job for 8 years because they've shown constant progress and been successful to varying degrees.
But I'd put good money on either of them probably getting the boot if they'd delivered our current season in their 2nd year before either had won a league or champions league title.
Based on the replies you've made to both me and the poster in question, it's quiye difficult to see how you might be arguing in good faith. The content of this post makes that even more slim a possibility.
You argued that he let Reguilon go and been proven wrong, so the goalposts shift. You implied that he shouldn't have listened to what the medical team was saying and backtracked. Now it's that he must take the flak for every failure at the club. It's okay to have that opinion, I suppose, but then again I'm also friends with somebody who thinks that How I met your Mother is a better show than Breaking Bad, so I might be slightly too tolerant a litmus test.
Had he not made that public, you'd blame him. It is public, so you blame him. I'm very glad not to have you as a superior in any capacity. There seems to be no right that can't be turned wrong by your assessment.
I'm taking Hojlund, Onana and Mount over Szoboszlai, Mac Allister, Gravenberch and Endo. Especially long-term.
Agreed. Time is not going to help a bad/wrong manager but how do we decide if they are wrong if we use SAF's early years as a yardstick? I'll repeat it again. We finished 11th and 13th with Fergie in two of those seasons.
Perhaps it is BECAUSE of Fergie that we no longer give managers enough time.
Everyone in here will tell you they’re all shit mate. All money was wasted etc.
Jumping in today to say again he’s gone.
had it reaffirmed to me tonight.
Again always comes through third hand info but basically decision made , gone.
had it reaffirmed to me tonight.
Again always comes through third hand info but basically decision made , gone.
Not at the level or last season for sustained period of time. United injuries so bad that have regularly started matches with patched up defences and any decent set of results more often or not first comes from having a settled back four.
WHAT!
We are mathematically out of Top 4 now and Germany and Italy look like going to get the 5th place team in the CL.
Are we waiting for Top 5 is gone before we make decision?
Are we waiting for Top 5 is gone before we make decision?
We have basically had very few issues with availability of our forwards throughout entire season yet have only started creating any chances in the last few games - and make no mistakes we are still not good enough in that department anyway. You can’t be horrible at something for 3-4 months, then barely acceptable (if even that) for 2 months and preach some big improvement.
No worries! On Pep and Klopp, I don't think we're comparing apples to apples imo - Klopp with a good structure around him (the lack of which is why he rejected us) got 4th, 4th, 2nd in his first 3 full seasons (He'd managed a half season before that too), a champs league runners up medal in his 2nd season and won in his 3rd full season. Pep of course had a superb structure set up for him at City, and they consistently were up there in the PL before he came. I'd say Arsenal probably mimics our situation more, with the sort of players they had / dressing room issues?
Artetta managed 8th, 5th, 2nd in his first 3 full seasons (1 FA cup, early cup exits in the other seasons) for arguably the 3rd biggest club in England, so he's the best case out there for giving a manager (That many considered unproven) a bit of time at a top club. ETH had a horrendous second season where he's made his own mistakes, but given the problems he's dealt with, I am still undecided on what we should do with him - Lots of positives and negatives with him. If the club decide to keep him (Especially given there are just no real good options out there), I hope ETH can work through his shortcomings the way Artetta did, and hope he'll get a fair bit of help from the new football operations hires.
It’s nearly 4 decades ago now though, a decision in a different time made by different people. I don’t think the patience shown to SAF has any relevance today or should be used as a yardstick.
Hopefully at some point we appoint the right manager and there are people at the club who are qualified to assess they deserve more time or not.There is no right or wrong answer and you could easily give a manager 4-5 years and it not make the slightest bit of difference or make things considerably worse.
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The Ferguson argument is so ridiculous it’s hard to even have a serious conversation about it, as it basically suggest that even someone doing an absolutely horrific job deserves to keep it because if given enough time literally anyone can become great. It not only makes virtually every single person in the world impossible to fire but also undermines the genius of Fergie which was so unique.
Erik ten Hag is not Alex Ferguson, no amount of time will change it.
Just a shock that's all. I hadn't yet given up hope
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