Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[Bobcat]

It's like clockwork on here: It looks like the new man's tenure is coming to an end. That can only mean one thing: It's time to overrate the previous man's job and get all misty eyed and sentimental about the shite job they also done. Some of you will never learn.

Think its more about giving some fresh perspective and context, although nostalgia can be a hell of a drug. People who suggest we bring back Ole are either taking the piss or have lost the plot.

Looks like Tuchel will be unemployed at the end of the season and i've read we have been in cotact with him

 

[Desert Eagle]

Yeah League, World Cup, CL, EL, Euro, Copa America winners and finalists are a fragile bunch that won't be able to compete at the top level.

Past achievements count for feck all. Name their trophies in a united shirt.

 

[golden_blunder]

It's been obvious for ages he's out of his depth. The team shape and way we play is absolutely awful and it's clearly tactical for some bizarre reason only known to ETH.

It's his own team now so any excuses about blaming the players are no longer valid. As others have said, the only players remaining are Shaw, Rashford, Martial and Lindelof. Do we really think these 4 are the difference between us being good and the levels we see now?

Get rid of ETH and give a new manager the target of a proper clear out / rebuild.

It never happens but we should be ultra aggressive in the next window with a new manager.

Out (As a minimum)

Martial
Rashford
Antony
Lindelof
Casemiro
Eriksen
Williams
Evans
Amrabat
DVB
Pellistri
Hannibal
Sancho
One of Shaw and Malacia

In (As a Minimum).

CF
Midfielders - 2 x CM
Winger (One Minimum)
CB
LB with good fitness record

So 14 out and only 5 in? Who’s going to make up your team never mind your squad?

 

[stevoc]

It's not just our fans and I don't really blame them too much for that because medias(sport talk shows) tend to sell that idea. Personally I think people should keep in mind how Real Madrid performed with different managers, the same set of players who are almost exclusively known for being hard working professionals with strong mental abilities were lost without the correct manager, they were also lost without the correct setup, people should remember what happened when some of their managers tried a 4231 with Modric and Kroos alone in midfield everyone could overrun them, the simple addition of an objectively lesser player in Casemiro and a different use of space made that midfield nearly unbreakable.
Later when they lose their strength on the wing, they tried to force it all of Lopetegui, Scolari and Zidane at first and it didn't really work because they didn't have the tools for it, it wasn't a case of the players not trying hard enough or being toxic but when Zidane changed things up and used a narrower organization that was often some sort of 442 than they became nearly impossible to beat once again because the manager focused on the strength and weaknesses of his own players.

Yep good points, some think players operate in a vacuum. There can be many reasons a player is underperforming. Being asked to operate in a nonsensical system can't help. With the amount of players we have playing poorly this season it can't be a coincidence and it doesn't necessarily mean they aren't trying.

 

[Shinjch]

Yeah League, World Cup, CL, EL, Euro, Copa America winners and finalists are a fragile bunch that won't be able to compete at the top level.

Are you of the view that this group of players is made of the right stuff to go and compete for top honours? I don't think we can start the rebuild properly until so many are shown the door. Whoever is best at managing massive player turnover should probably be in with a good shout of getting the manager's job next.

 

[JPRouve]

I forgot to add that a fairly large proportion of our players have had more experience of elite Football than our manager.

 

[troylocker]

Completely agree with Keano, these players are weak-minded athletes

Remind us who the leader and coach for those players is? Who is responsible for implementing a culture and identity into a group of players? Who's job is it to inspire and get the most out of the players we have at disposal? .....or as a bare minimum make sure we execute a tactic where we're not exposed to counters every fecking time we're in possession while protecting a lead in a cup game or any other game we've played the last 12 months? ETH is the answer to all those questions btw.

 

[Ubik]

Yeah League, World Cup, CL, EL, Euro, Copa America winners and finalists are a fragile bunch that won't be able to compete at the top level.

Sorry but including Europa League finalists so we can add Lindelof, Wan-Bissaka and McTominay is stretching your point beyond breaking.

 

[stevoc]

They are being serious and you hear people like Neville say similar. The reason they, and Neville, can't back it up is because it is a compulsion of theirs to defend the manager and say whatever they can think of in defence of the manager without any actual depth of critical thinking.

I think a combination of us having a legendary manager at the helm for so long, coupled with said manager imploring us to "back the manager" and be patient, has led to this innate compulsion to blindly back managers amongst some of the fanbase. If any of these same fans had a builder working on their house doing as bad a job as Ten Hag was doing, there is not a chance they'd give the builder additional time to continue destroying their house. These same fans are nowhere near as lenient in their opinions on opposition managers or players.

Yeah it's a strange phenomenal and no doubt bullshitters like Neville feed into it.

We definitely have fans who seem to support the manager over the players in all situations and even over the fortunes of the club at times. It's bizarre to be honest.

 

[Shinjch]

Sorry but including Europa League finalists so we can add Lindelof, Wan-Bissaka and McTominay is stretching your point beyond breaking.

Not only that, but those players royally failed in that cup final when the heat was on.

 

[golden_blunder]

I agree with your general idea, I shared the same opinion. I'm just adding that yesterday, the players deserve to be heavily blamed for their response or lack of response.

Oh yesterday the players have to take blame. They were 3-0 up and let it slip, by pure luck they didn’t lose 4-3 to a team that’s 8th in the championship. That we have a goalkeeper time wasting and a player who’s end of game reaction is to go and wind up the fans rather than shake hands with the Coventry players.. it says a lot for their mentality.

2 players who have both played under ETH previously.

I hope Sir Jim spoke to them afterwards and gave them a bollocking about standards at United and cards have already been marketed for some

 

[JPRouve]

Are you of the view that this group of players is made of the right stuff to go and compete for top honours? I don't think we can start the rebuild properly until so many are shown the door. Whoever is best at managing massive player turnover should probably be in with a good shout of getting the manager's job next.

Mentally yes, because they the backbone of the team, the leaders of the team have literally done it. Now I also think that the manager has been bad and has showcased the worse attitude out of everyone and I also believe that we lack certain technical profiles that are important when you ambition to be an elite team.

I think that this team is going nowhere with the current version of ETH and I don't trust him to humble himself and go back to what has made him a promising signing. As for the profiles that we need it is a game manager in midfield whether it is a CM or an AM and we need at least one player that is willing and able to beat his man 1v1 because that's the easiest way to create imbalance in your opposition too many of current starters aren't ball carriers.

So my point is not that we are an elite team, it's that we are potentially a level below that but the manager's ineptitude makes us look like an incompetent bunch when he in fact we have players that have largely performed in elite teams or close to it. I'm just asking for competency on the field, I'm not asking this current squad to batter the likes of City.

 

[red woppit]

So you‘d run Mainoo into the ground at 3-0 up? It‘s logical replacing him with Eriksen at that point.

The failure is not understanding what to do in games. Why couldn‘t we play in a tight low block for 20 minutes?!?

My hamster has better tactics than that; he uses what he has available to him (shelter, food bowl, hamster wheel) and always manages to escape (he must want to kill himself, we have cats).

I don't think it's 'logical' to replace Mainoo with Ericsen, completely different skill sets. What I would have done was to limit Mainoo's minutes in the league matches, so he was fresh for the fa cup games. We have nothing to go for in the league, our only chance of silverware is the cup, so would have saved him for those games.
I would have replaced Rashford with Ericsen, played him on the right of a midfield three, with Mainoo behind just in front of the back four, McTominay central, and Bruno on the left. We had no reason to go for more goals, so all those players had to do is hold their position, and just clip passes over the top for Garnacho and Højlund to run on to.

 

[croadyman]

ETH's Ajax throwing away a 3 goal aggregate lead on the CL semis conceding a 90+6' goal against Tottenham fecking Hotspur of all teams makes so much sense now.

Yeah I thought that might have been a one off freak result but nope it was a big red flag we missed

 

[JPRouve]

Sorry but including Europa League finalists so we can add Lindelof, Wan-Bissaka and McTominay is stretching your point beyond breaking.

It wasn't what I had in mind, you added those players on your own. I actually had none of them in mind. I was thinking about Varane, Casemiro, Bruno, Eriksen, Onana, Martinez, Rashford, Evans, Shaw and Mount. The overall mentality of a team generally comes from a smaller group of players and the staff.

And in that lot I only have massive question marks over Rashford's head.

 

[red woppit]

Oh yesterday the players have to take blame. They were 3-0 up and let it slip, by pure luck they didn’t lose 4-3 to a team that’s 8th in the championship. That we have a goalkeeper time wasting and a player who’s end of game reaction is to go and wind up the fans rather than shake hands with the Coventry players.. it says a lot for their mentality.

2 players who have both played under ETH previously.

I hope Sir Jim spoke to them afterwards and gave them a bollocking about standards at United and cards have already been marketed for some

Agree. The club's standards definitely seem to have fallen. Very poor and childish from Antony following the end of the game, Onana time wasting again is very poor. I just hope that SJR can re-establish the higher standards required for this club, and action should be taken if players, or officials, don't reach those standards.

 

[Redstain]

It is shocking that INEOS have made no definitive statement about the managers long-term future at the club irrespective of it being dismissal or support. I know they haven't got the people in place to some degree but I don't think you need individuals to have a consensus. The consensus should be a derivative of the standards that Ratcliffe has mentioned in interviews, so if he intends to win a major competition in the next 36 months does the present manager have the capabilities to do so?

I can see someone like Emery or Arteta achieving this for example when assessing the capacity of those managers over a period of time, but it's not something I personally can view with Erik. He will not be successful in a league as competitive as the premier league is, that much he has proven through his tactical incompetence. That's not even considering the ethics behind success such as being able to inspire, innovate and motivate, he is proving himself a poor manager with how bad a season he's having.

 

[Shinjch]

Mentally yes, because they the backbone of the team, the leaders of the team have literally done it. Now I also think that the manager has been bad and has showcased the worse attitude out of everyone and I also believe that we lack certain technical profiles that are important when you ambition to be an elite team.

I think that this team is going nowhere with the current version of ETH and I don't trust him to humble himself and go back to what has made him a promising signing. As for the profiles that we need it is a game manager in midfield whether it is a CM or an AM and we need at least one player that is willing and able to beat his man 1v1 because that's the easiest way to create imbalance in your opposition too many of current starters aren't ball carriers.

So my point is not that we are an elite team, it's that we are potentially a level below that but the manager's ineptitude makes us look like an incompetent bunch when he in fact we have players that have largely performed in elite teams or close to it. I'm just asking for competency on the field, I'm not asking this current squad to batter the likes of City.

We haven't seen these leaders do it in a United shirt, and that is what matters to United.
I just think there are far too many examples now of mental fragility in this group of players now to say that they are up to the job. Once the heat comes on they tend to find a way to crumble one way or another. That is without even commenting on their technical and tactical competence.

I think the manager is done, and will be gone at the end of the season whatever happens the next few weeks. My worry is that too many of these players won't be following him out the door and we will be back where we started again. If we are signing new players to come into a group/culture that is clearly broken, and has been broken for too long, then the new players will be coming in behind the 8 ball already. I'm not overly arsed about finishing in the top 4, I want to see a clear out and a new foundation laid that we can build on to get us back to the top, the current foundation won't get us there. If we are out of the Champions League for a few years, that is fine as this set of players has no chance of making the quarter finals let alone competing to win it.

 

[ROFLUTION]

How can you say you can't see those names being better? We're set up to have no midfield, if they do that they're instantly much better. Once you come to the understanding that the guy managing is is massively out of his depth you'll see that there are many coaches who could improve us.

But out of De Zerbi and Southgate - the realistic ones I mentioned - Do you really think they'll have succes? We'll win the same amount of trophies with those two if you ask me. Southgate might also play too boring for United. Zerbi is too rookie to handle the pressure/understand the size of club imo.

 

[dabronxolivera]

Give them 24-48 hours.

They are so vocal and delusional that I had their account names imprinted in my memory . Anyone that still want him to stay after our latest collapse can support whatever next club their supreme leader coach after he got handed his notice. With Ole, I understand some wanted him to work out because he's our legend and one of us therefore they were persistent to stick with him but with this bald bozo I really cant understand the reasoning and logic. He has zero charisma as a fecking leader and he's more akin to a miserable drill sergeant. His media appearance is the worst. I rather our manager do a Mou than being this delusional in public.

I foolishly voted yes…instead preferring the squad to be decimated

but then I realised it wasn’t an either/or

Vote changed

the squad and the manager are an embarrassment. Aside from about 7 players (we all know who)…they should all go

Welcome to the enlightened side. I am glad some are already changing their stance about him. He has no redeemable quality as a manager. If anything our players won DESPITE of him and his shitty tactics. The fact he has the nerve to complain and pretend being confused about injury while working our players in training and matchday like a slave in 17th century is truly absurd. Also anyone crediting Mainoo and Garnacho to him is reaching for anything. They are gonna break out regardless and actually I really believe he's the one who's going to hold them back to progress into the next level

 

[Redstain]

It's not just our fans and I don't really blame them too much for that because medias(sport talk shows) tend to sell that idea. Personally I think people should keep in mind how Real Madrid performed with different managers, the same set of players who are almost exclusively known for being hard working professionals with strong mental abilities were lost without the correct manager, they were also lost without the correct setup, people should remember what happened when some of their managers tried a 4231 with Modric and Kroos alone in midfield everyone could overrun them, the simple addition of an objectively lesser player in Casemiro and a different use of space made that midfield nearly unbreakable.
Later when they lose their strength on the wing, they tried to force it all of Lopetegui, Scolari and Zidane at first and it didn't really work because they didn't have the tools for it, it wasn't a case of the players not trying hard enough or being toxic but when Zidane changed things up and used a narrower organization that was often some sort of 442 than they became nearly impossible to beat once again because the manager focused on the strength and weaknesses of his own players.

It's a classic defense mechanism that when things go south the players are instantly to blame but the issue is why wasn't the same criticisms noted last year when the same players achieved more under the same manager. We only have to visit the seasons expectations thread to grasp the general feeling towards the squad and manager.

Furthermore, I listened to Andreas Pereira interview with Rio and his summation of playing against United last season and this current campaign is a damning assessment against Erik and his staff, it's almost worthy of a thread inward of itself. The manager has shown a lack of accountability in deflecting everything down to injuries when the reality of the poor season has culminated from a diabolical approach towards the teams shape, tactics and the instructions given clearly being evident that the players have a pattern of doing the same thing from game to game which is creating the insufficiencies in the midfield and defense. If the players were acting of their own accord then the performances would reflect some degree of volatility where United look one way one week and then a totally opposite another. Erik failing to accommodate any improvement to this approach tells me that any decision to give him more time will essentially be more of the same with the hope that from his perspectives injuries will make a day and night difference to the structural failures in the team.

I anticipated a poor season from the summer, then 8 games in predicted United would finish 6th but what I couldn't account for is how badly the manager would be at making adjustments and essentially learning while moving forward. It's very evident that there's a ceiling that time and resources won't improve if the directive is still the same.

 

[pocco]

Oh yesterday the players have to take blame. They were 3-0 up and let it slip, by pure luck they didn’t lose 4-3 to a team that’s 8th in the championship. That we have a goalkeeper time wasting and a player who’s end of game reaction is to go and wind up the fans rather than shake hands with the Coventry players.. it says a lot for their mentality.

2 players who have both played under ETH previously.

I hope Sir Jim spoke to them afterwards and gave them a bollocking about standards at United and cards have already been marketed for some

Ten Hag is a bit of a classless c*nt and he probably encourages it from his players. These guys aren't made for this club. Look at his past at Ajax with some of their players, his sticking by Marc Overmars after what he got sacked for. The Antony stuff I'm pretty sure was known to him before he signed him (police report filed three months prior to signing him....I mean, come on...). He wanted Greenwood back. He tried to sign the racist Arnautovic.

 

[Ubik]

It wasn't what I had in mind, you added those players on your own. I actually had none of them in mind. I was thinking about Varane, Casemiro, Bruno, Eriksen, Onana, Martinez, Rashford, Evans, Shaw and Mount. The overall mentality of a team generally comes from a smaller group of players and the staff.

And in that lot I only have massive question marks over Rashford's head.

Let's be honest, the only real ones those achievements pick out are Varane and Casemiro, neither of whom am I particularly convinced are hugely committed to transforming our collective mentality as they head towards the exit door. Half of the others can't stay on a pitch for more than a few games at a time so aren't really much use in a team keeping their heads in a tough game, Bruno has been at the scene of the crime for almost all of the humiliating defeats we've begun to suffer over the last 5 years, and Rashford is Rashford.

 

[VP89]

Welcome to the enlightened side.

Get over yourself

 

[Hughes35]

So 14 out and only 5 in? Who’s going to make up your team never mind your squad?

It's not really 14 out though is it?

Williams, Evans, Amrabat, DVB, Pellistri, Sancho, Hannibal, Martial and Greenwood aren't really in the squad anyway. So in reality it's 5 or 6 realistic first teamers leaving with 5 or 6 replacements.

 

[The Hilton]

Would you have been Erik out if Coventry stayed onside for the fourth goal just out of interest

That wouldn't have any bearing on things for me, far too reactionary to flip based on one goal.

My problem is the lack of control and frankly lack of professionalism showed by the team, it's been an issue with a lot of the sloppy goals we've conceded but I thought it could be addressed with an approach like the mid-block-after-we-score one Arteta brought in at Arsenal, but yesterday's capitulation (which was far more us than it was Coventry) seems to be following a trend of longer spells of poor concentration.

I've been far more open to the idea of replacing ETH since INEOS took over and look like they have a plan anyway, but the lack of control we have over matches, particularly when ahead, is really concerning me.

 

[IRN-BRUno]

I think INEOS probably decided long ago to move him on at the end of the season but if there was any doubt about that, yesterday surely will have convinced them. Last season was promising despite fizzling out slightly towards the end but this one has been horrendous right from that first game against Wolves. There's probably been a handful of games at most where you could say the side played well for 90 minutes which clearly isn't acceptable.

 

[croadyman]

22% of us want to give ETH another season?
We have saboteurs between our ranks surely.

Yeah would say I'm shocked but then it's probably made up of people who religiously back managers no matter the performance on the pitch

 

[JPRouve]

We haven't seen the leaders do it in a United shirt, and that is what matters to United.
I just think there are far too many examples now of mental fragility in this group of players now to say that they are up to the job. Once the heat comes on they tend to find a way to crumble one way or another. That is without even commenting on their technical and tactical competence.

I think the manager is done, and will be gone at the end of the season whatever happens the next few weeks. My worry is that too many of these players won't be following him out the door and we will be back where we started again. If we are signing new players to come into a group/culture that is clearly broken, and has been broken for too long, then the new players will be coming in behind the 8 ball already. I'm not overly arsed about finishing in the top 4, I want to see a clear out and a new foundation laid that we can build on to get us back to the top, the current foundation won't get us there. If we are out of the Champions League for a few years, that is fine as this set of players has no chance of making the quarter finals let alone competing to win it.

Mental fragility or strength implies that it's a definite condition. So their larger body of work is what matters, in fact it matters significantly more then any recent observation. It's nearly impossible to justify the claim that players that have overcome adversity at an elite level are fragile because in a shorter amount of time at United they didn't overcome adversity.
If there is a deviation from their previous norm than you should logically pause and wonder what is the difference, one big difference is that their current manager has no actual track record at an elite level, an other difference is that from a technical standpoint our best players aren't as good as the best players in current elite teams and a third difference, the manager heavily altered his system to one that didn't work in preseason and still doesn't which after nearly a year can and will be draining.

 

[croadyman]

Anyone in here genuinely think INEOS actually would have pulled trigger today if we lost yeaterday. Personally I have my doubts on that due to the fact there are only a few games left

 

[Berbaclass]

Anyone in here genuinely think INEOS actually would have pulled trigger today if we lost yeaterday. Personally I have my doubts on that due to the fact there are only a few games left

Seeing as he's being judged on performance he's gone.

 

[Morpheus 7]

I think I was fair with ETH, had to witness going to see Galatasaray and Fulham this season. I said in January, now everyone is back from injury, if these injuries continue it's now not bad luck it's on the manager and medical department(not bad luck). If I don't see some 90 minute performances from now to the end, we can't justify keeping him. It's not acceptable, I'm very disappointed as I thought ETH could bring us real success but it's not worked out. A one of game against City won't cut it for either, it didn't for LVG and it shouldn't be for him. He has made too many mistakes and tactically been an embarrassment, conceding crazy amount of chances and the huge hole in midfield. That's not injuries, that's the shape designed in training sessions daily, not good enough. Yesterday was the end for me, don't want to see it anymore, not all on him, these players continue to do this under managers but his subs and in game management is awful.

 

[crossy1686]

But out of De Zerbi and Southgate - the realistic ones I mentioned - Do you really think they'll have succes? We'll win the same amount of trophies with those two if you ask me. Southgate might also play too boring for United. Zerbi is too rookie to handle the pressure/understand the size of club imo.

What's success defined as? Right now, our main priority is consistency between seasons and good cup runs. We can't keep doing this one good season, one bad season, throw the baby out with the bathwater approach.

It's clear that Ten Hag's methods aren't sustainable in a competitive league where his players aren't vastly better than the opposition 3 weekends out of 4, so the players we need to sign to make this work in the PL just don't exist.

De Zerbi or Southgate would most likely set us up in a way that was conducive to the players strengths and the PL as a competition. Once we start having regular top 4 finishes we can talk about 'success' and winning the big trophies, and if either of the names you mentioned aren't up to that next step then you say "thank you very much but you're not it" and you bring in the next manager who can make the step, and at this point your Zidane's, Ancelotti's, Enrique's etc are all interested in managing your club.

Right now people are talking about running before we can walk. We need years of sustained squad building, continuity between play styles and seasons first. If your reasons for not sacking Ten Hag are that a world class coach isn't available then Ten Hag's going to be here for life.

 

[gerdm07]

I thought for sure he would be fired by this morning. What is SJR thinking? The longer he waits, the weaker he looks.

 

[JPRouve]

Let's be honest, the only real ones those achievements pick out are Varane and Casemiro, neither of whom am I particularly convinced are hugely committed to transforming our collective mentality as they head towards the exit door. Half of the others can't stay on a pitch for more than a few games at a time so aren't really much use in a team keeping their heads in a tough game, Bruno has been at the scene of the crime for almost all of the humiliating defeats we've begun to suffer over the last 5 years, and Rashford is Rashford.

Fair enough. So you are implying that this dozen of players are less representative or have less influence than the roughly the other half of the squad which is largely made of players who funnily enough were kings of comebacks under Ole.

I'm sorry but I can't defend that idea because we would have to literally rewrite these players history with and without the club. I will largely blame them for yesterday, I will also blame some of them for other isolated games the same way I would for a bunch of elite players/teams who every season shit the bed.

Our players have obvious flaws but they have drag themselves out of self created holes enough times to not be called fragile. Their flaws are football related, physical, technical and tactical.

 

[Skills]

It's not just our fans and I don't really blame them too much for that because medias(sport talk shows) tend to sell that idea.

They only sell the idea for this particular club. Because they know it's what sells for this clubs fanbase and gets them riled up.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

Neville is right, INEOS have removed the people that appointed Ten Hag. They clearly were unimpressed in what has happened and what is currently happening. I do think Ten Hag has been told he's gone end of the season, I also wouldn't be surprised if the players have been told - which has just added to the pathetic performances. We have a few dead rubbers in the league followed by a cup final in which we are huge underdogs - then it will be a new beginning under a new manager.

 

[The Oracle]

Is it really in game management or just tactics as a whole.

Either we start well and flounder, or flounder and have to finish well to get a result.

Let’s have a look at three of our last four matches:

Coventry in FA Cup, we’re winning 3-0, takes Garnacho off after 66 minutes, we end up drawing 3-3

Liverpool in the league, we’re winning 2-1, takes Garnacho off after 79 minutes, we end up drawing 2-2

Chelsea in the league, we’re winning 3-2, takes Garnacho off after 86 minutes, we lose 4-3


...in my opinion, there is a strong argument to suggest that Ten Hag’s in-game management is severely lacking - his decisions negatively affect us.

 

[Red in STL]

He looked really uncomfortable and unhappy. Whenever the camera went to him, second half, he had a pained expression on his face.

(although that could have been to do with sitting next to one of the Glazers)

It was likely because he'd just done a personal best in a marathon, way better than I would have done and I'm a decade younger!

 

[JPRouve]

They only sell the idea for this particular club. Because they know it's what sells for this clubs fanbase and gets them riled up.

No. They do it for most clubs and it's across most sports.