Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[stevoc]

If we get rid of the majority of players we will be sending a five a side team out next season. There will be players who go, but it will not be all of them. We need better assessing of players and if they fit our club, not just ability, but background and character. They also need to look into why we get so many injuries, is it the conditioning coaches, is it the medical side, is it the training methods? If it is the training,medical side then no matter which players we bring in the injury issue will just continue. Problem with ETH is I don't think it has crossed his mind it might just be him causing the issues.

A point lost on many it seems.

I get the impression from Erik that he thinks he's doing a great job and everyone and everything else is holding him back.

Agree on everything else.

 

[JPRouve]

That big injury he got when Jose was here ruled him out for a long time, but it is the niggling injuries that are a worry.

The big injury was under LVG?

 

[pocco]

Woke up thinking I might read something about him being sacked, but nah fecking Rattclife you coward.

I think he vastly misread the situation when he came in, thinking it was possible to get top 4 with the way we were playing. The only hope is that he has a clear plan, which hopefully includes a new manager, that will be properly put in place this summer. If we finally get the backroom staff together in the summer, and there is a sense of 'well, what now?' from them, then it will be a huge piss take to the supporters who are having to endure this whilst they move at a snail speed. But I think, surely, they are having the important conversations now even before they officially start. It would be extremely negligent if they aren't.

 

[roonster09]

A point lost on many it seems.

I get the impression from Erik that he thinks he's doing a great job and everyone and everything else is holding him back.

Agree on everything else.

Yeah, his interviews are nonsense too. He must be dreaming about the games he wants us to play.

Can't think of one thing he is good at.

 

[JPRouve]

If we get rid of the majority of players we will be sending a five a side team out next season. There will be players who go, but it will not be all of them. We need better assessing of players and if they fit our club, not just ability, but background and character. They also need to look into why we get so many injuries, is it the conditioning coaches, is it the medical side, is it the training methods? If it is the training,medical side then no matter which players we bring in the injury issue will just continue. Problem with ETH is I don't think it has crossed his mind it might just be him causing the issues.

He didn't bring one, he allegedly wanted Schoenmaker but he stayed at Ajax and didn't add any specialist as far as I know.

 

[stevoc]

You would think that the squads are even remotely similar. Funnily enough one actual common denominator is the attitude of the new managers when they join the club. Instead of working with the squad they inherited they first spend big and overhaul the team. Their big signings are generally subpar even when they are not bad and the manager still don't actually try to work efficiently with what he has until it reaches a point where most of the team is recent and the fanbase claim that all these players(who are mainly new) have let down the manager and the previous managers(that they never met).

Yeah it's a genuinely baffling narrative, practically a new squad but "these players have failed/threw under a bus several managers". And yeah it's a vicious cycle with our managers and a lot of fans.

I wonder if other fan bases have large sections of fans who think it's always 100% the players fault the majority of the time when their team is failing?

 

[DomesticTadpole]

A point lost on many it seems.

I get the impression from Erik that he thinks he's doing a great job and everyone and everything else is holding him back.

Agree on everything else.

Think Casemiro will go, Varane will be gone, the problem we will have is deciding who we want to keep as a squad player and if they will accept that role. I would keep McT for that, but if he wants to be a starter elsewhere then fair enough he can go. They also need to be able to negotiate good prices for outgoing players without being stupid. People are forgetting the insane wages some are on, not all. It will restrict the selling market unless players take a pay cut. I just can't get my head round how bad Rashford is, not sure if it is him being lazy or that his confidence has slumped that much he just cannot perform to standard.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

He didn't bring one, he allegedly wanted Schoenmaker but he stayed at Ajax and didn't add any specialist as far as I know.

Then that could be a problem. A club our size needs to get the best in the business. Our players should be finally tuned machines not clapped out old bangers.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Yeah it's a genuinely baffling narrative, practically a new squad but "these players have failed/threw under a bus several managers". And yeah it's a vicious cycle with our managers and a lot of fans.

I wonder if other fan bases have large sections of fans who think it's always 100% the players fault the majority of the time when their team is failing?

It's not all these players though is it? Some weren't here earlier on. Maybe it is the culture the club have allowed to happen, going to people behind the managers back. That should not be allowed unless it was something criminal, not just whining. The manager should also just be part of the buying and selling process, not the one running it completely like last season.

 

[ROFLUTION]

He's genuinely a more negative manager then Jose Mourinho, I'm absolutely convinced of it.

The only difference is he has no clue how to set-up a team to defend... and yet he still insists on it anyway, which is absolutely bizzare.

Your username checks out

I’m for a sack, but who replaces him? Can’t see De Zerbi or Southgate being better. Ancelotti’s not coming. Alonso wouldnt say yes to us, if he turns down Liverpool imo.

There’s probably just mediocre journeymen left as alternatives, like when Chelsea picked Poch.

 

[Hughes35]

It's been obvious for ages he's out of his depth. The team shape and way we play is absolutely awful and it's clearly tactical for some bizarre reason only known to ETH.

It's his own team now so any excuses about blaming the players are no longer valid. As others have said, the only players remaining are Shaw, Rashford, Martial and Lindelof. Do we really think these 4 are the difference between us being good and the levels we see now?

Get rid of ETH and give a new manager the target of a proper clear out / rebuild.

It never happens but we should be ultra aggressive in the next window with a new manager.

Out (As a minimum)

Martial
Rashford
Antony
Lindelof
Casemiro
Eriksen
Williams
Evans
Amrabat
DVB
Pellistri
Hannibal
Sancho
One of Shaw and Malacia

In (As a Minimum).

CF
Midfielders - 2 x CM
Winger (One Minimum)
CB
LB with good fitness record

 

[acnumber9]

If we’re relying on the manager having to give specific tactical instructions to the players to defend a 3 goal lead against championship opposition, it tells you exactly what the problems are with this team. It’s not like Coventry had some kind of genius tactical shift that required specific intervention. They attacked and took more risks. You’d trust a top team to be able to figure that out, I can’t see Pep telling his players they need to sit deeper and keep hold of the ball against a championship team at 3-0. They know what to do.

Because they’re coached into what to do. If we want to point fingers at the players every time something goes wrong then they also have to be the ones praised for anything that goes right. We could save ourselves a few quid on hiring managers and have the team selected via online polls.

 

[OsloRed]

He built up a lot of goodwill with me last season, but by now it is all gone. The circumstances this season have been ridiculous for him, I'll give him that, but he doesn't change anything and it's driving me insane. I'm aware that doing tactical drills and such during a season is hard because of rehabilitation and fitness work, but persisting with the system we've had the last couple of months and just waiting for it to work when it clearly won't is crazy to me. Just try something! It might not work either, but then we can see that something is being done at least.

There is a good manager in there, and I still think the chances of him being here next season are higher than most of us would like to think. If so I just hope we can see some of the good manager we saw last season and before that.

 

[OldTrevil]

That capitulation in yesterday's game is largely due to the players for me, but I will still blame EtH for creating that situation partly by incomprehensibly never punishing terrible performances and having clear favorites when performances have been uninspiring. However, I'm still getting rid of these players before another manager.

 

[JPRouve]

Yeah it's a genuinely baffling narrative, practically a new squad but "these players have failed/threw under a bus several managers". And yeah it's a vicious cycle with our managers and a lot of fans.

I wonder if other fan bases have large sections of fans who think it's always 100% the players fault the majority of the time when their team is failing?

It's not just our fans and I don't really blame them too much for that because medias(sport talk shows) tend to sell that idea. Personally I think people should keep in mind how Real Madrid performed with different managers, the same set of players who are almost exclusively known for being hard working professionals with strong mental abilities were lost without the correct manager, they were also lost without the correct setup, people should remember what happened when some of their managers tried a 4231 with Modric and Kroos alone in midfield everyone could overrun them, the simple addition of an objectively lesser player in Casemiro and a different use of space made that midfield nearly unbreakable.
Later when they lose their strength on the wing, they tried to force it all of Lopetegui, Scolari and Zidane at first and it didn't really work because they didn't have the tools for it, it wasn't a case of the players not trying hard enough or being toxic but when Zidane changed things up and used a narrower organization that was often some sort of 442 than they became nearly impossible to beat once again because the manager focused on the strength and weaknesses of his own players.

 

[crossy1686]

Your username checks out

I’m for a sack, but who replaces him? Can’t see De Zerbi or Southgate being better. Ancelotti’s not coming. Alonso wouldnt say yes to us, if he turns down Liverpool imo.

There’s probably just mediocre journeymen left as alternatives, like when Chelsea picked Poch.

How can you say you can't see those names being better? We're set up to have no midfield, if they do that they're instantly much better. Once you come to the understanding that the guy managing is is massively out of his depth you'll see that there are many coaches who could improve us.

 

[TrailMonkey]

Listening to ETH's post match presser and he says United should not be embarrassed by going through in the way we did. He says the focus should be on the output and how we've reached 2 finals in 2 years vs 3 in the last 20. IMO if he wants to use that argument of looking back over the last 20 years then how about he compares our league performances and outputs vs those from SAF and everyone since... and see how he can justify all his progress BS. We are an abomination of a club right now and he should FRO.

 

[NLunited]

We ended up winning the game but we also threw away a 2-0 and 3-1 lead vs Wolves, Mainoo rescued us with a 97th minute winner. If the game had gone on another 2 or 3 minutes they'd have probably made it 4-4.

Never seen anything like it this season. We could be 4-0 up against a non league side with 15 minutes to go and you'd have your doubts if we were truly safe.

It‘s genuinely baffling.

 

[Vault Dweller]

It's been a disgracefully bad season and if anything it's somehow currently worse that it's ever been.

When was the last time we won a game in normal time?

2-0 v Everton on the 9th March.

Absolutely bloody shocking.

 

[RedRover]

If we’re relying on the manager having to give specific tactical instructions to the players to defend a 3 goal lead against championship opposition, it tells you exactly what the problems are with this team. It’s not like Coventry had some kind of genius tactical shift that required specific intervention. They attacked and took more risks. You’d trust a top team to be able to figure that out, I can’t see Pep telling his players they need to sit deeper and keep hold of the ball against a championship team at 3-0. They know what to do.

I think it's much simpler than that. We're relying on a manager to not put square pegs in round holes. Eriksen isn't going to do what Mainoo does. He isn't combative and he's got no legs. The impact of that isn't difficult to work out.

Clearly the players take responsibility as well, but Ten Hag consistently makes objectively poor decisions and it costs us games. He's just not good enough.

 

[NLunited]

I think it's much simpler than that. We're relying on a manager to not put square pegs in round holes. Eriksen isn't going to do what Mainoo does. He isn't combative and he's got no legs. The impact of that isn't difficult to work out.

Clearly the players take responsibility as well, but Ten Hag consistently makes objectively poor decisions and it costs us games. He's just not good enough.

So you‘d run Mainoo into the ground at 3-0 up? It‘s logical replacing him with Eriksen at that point.

The failure is not understanding what to do in games. Why couldn‘t we play in a tight low block for 20 minutes?!?

My hamster has better tactics than that; he uses what he has available to him (shelter, food bowl, hamster wheel) and always manages to escape (he must want to kill himself, we have cats).

 

[RedRover]

Your username checks out

I’m for a sack, but who replaces him? Can’t see De Zerbi or Southgate being better. Ancelotti’s not coming. Alonso wouldnt say yes to us, if he turns down Liverpool imo.

There’s probably just mediocre journeymen left as alternatives, like when Chelsea picked Poch.

I reckon any of those would be better, frankly. Numerous managers in the PL would do better with this squad than Ten Hag. Whether they're good enough to achieve what we'd hope as fans of the club is a different question, but at least they might see what's happening in front of them and come up with a plan. Ten Hag seems to think what he's doing is acceptable. It's incredible.

If the supposedly top end incoming Executives cannot find anyone to produce better than this then we're all in for a truly miserable time.

INEOS will sack him because if they don't, he's perceived as "their man" next season and when this continues, they take the flak and it's a false start. No sense at al in giving this manager limited resources to waste in the hope that by some miracle he turns it around and get's a new contract.

 

[RedRover]

So you‘d run Mainoo into the ground at 3-0 up? It‘s logical replacing him with Eriksen at that point.

The failure is not understanding what to do in games. Why couldn‘t we play in a tight low block for 20 minutes?!?

My hamster has better tactics than that; he uses what he has available to him (shelter, food bowl, hamster wheel) and always manages to escape (he must want to kill himself, we have cats).

If I didn't have anyone to come on and do the job that he's doing, then I would leave him on, barring injury. The writing was on the wall before he came off as Coventry went after the game.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Further to my other comment above, we've won one game in the league since we beath Luton on the 18th February.

 

[SAF is the GOAT]

Completely agree with Keano, these players are weak-minded athletes

 

[Chaky_Best]

I was 50-50 for him to stay in the position.

But to be honest his team is absolutely helpless.

He's the main responsible of all of this.

Impossible for him to stay in the job.

He'll lose against City and the following morning we'll get a pop up with him gone.

 

[CM]

Completely agree with Keano, these players are weak-minded athletes

It's all well and good blaming the players but when you've seen the same thing occuring consistently week on week for 9 months, that is clearly the result of poor instruction and/or no direction.

The players may not be perfect but the system they're playing is simply not fit for purpose. Worse teams play better than us every week.

 

[JPRouve]

It's all well and good blaming the players but when you've seen the same thing occuring consistently week on week for 9 months, that is clearly the result of poor instruction and/or no direction.

The players may not be perfect but the system they're playing is simply not fit for purpose. Worse teams play better than us every week.

I have been on the case of ETH and his nonsense but it's very difficult to not agree with the idea that yesterday the players also failed themselves and showed little character and grit. Of course one could argue that the manager is supposed to be a big overall influence in that aspect but during a game and during a game like a semi final there is little that a manager can do from a mental standpoint, that's why I laugh at people who are upset when the manager isn't acting like a lunatic on the sideline, most players won't notice or hear any of it.

 

[Waynne]

I would be far more confident of an Ole United team facing Man City than a Ten Hag United team.

I'm at that point now and I honestly can't believe it.

 

[Adebisi's Hat]

Completely agree with Keano, these players are weak-minded athletes

yes well summed up by Keano, we hear this from him regularly over the last few years. Until the same lot are cleared out this will keep happening. The performances at the moment are just like Rangnick and the end of Oles time with many the same players. I'm keep ETH btw.

 

[MadDogg]

Sorry yes. I forgot myself.

In all seriousness I’m now 60:40 still in favour of stay. But maybe im wrong here I feel 3:0 up with 20 odd mins to go you should be able to take off 2 teenagers and bring on Eriksen and Antony and see out a game?

Like the players should be capable of that right?

It's not just the players.

We dominated the first half because of the opposition set-up. At halftime Robins made a tactical switch to have a go at us, and right from that moment we lost control of the match. A mid-table Championship team able to go head-to-head against us and it was at best 50/50 from that point, and if anything they had the edge. Then that obviously got much worse as ETH once again made things more difficult with his substitutions, something that seems to happen quite regularly. But even with those players on the field we weren't in control of the match after halftime (other than on the scoreboard of course).

ETH seems to have one set-up. It doesn't matter whether it's working or not (and most of the time it's not), it doesn't matter what players are of the field, it doesn't matter who the opposition is (bar maybe City/Liverpool). The general shape and system remains identical. Meanwhile the opposition manager makes adjustments and tweaks, and even in matches where we do have good periods they don't last. He literally got out-managed by a man who has never managed above the Championship.

 

[stevoc]

Yeah, his interviews are nonsense too. He must be dreaming about the games he wants us to play.

Can't think of one thing he is good at.

Last season up until around February I thought his subs generally worked more often that not. Since then they've been generally poor.

 

[Shinjch]

I have been on the case of ETH and his nonsense but it's very difficult to not agree with the idea that yesterday the players also failed themselves and showed little character and grit. Of course one could argue that the manager is supposed to be a big overall influence in that aspect but during a game and during a game like a semi final there is little that a manager can do from a mental standpoint, that's why I laugh at people who are upset when the manager isn't acting like a lunatic on the sideline, most players won't notice or hear any of it.

I think we had an exchange about the mentality of the players before, but they are just a fragile bunch. Most have shown it for a number of years now that they won't be able to compete at the top level and should be moved on.

Whether Ten Hag should be the man in the dugout for the reshaping of the squad is a different matter, but so many of these players just need to go if the club are to move forward on the pitch.

 

[JPRouve]

I think we had an exchange about the mentality of the players before, but they are just a fragile bunch. Most have shown it for a number of years now that they won't be able to compete at the top level and should be moved on.

Whether Ten Hag should be the man in the dugout for the reshaping of the squad is a different matter, but so many of these players just need to go if the club are to move forward on the pitch.

Yeah League, World Cup, CL, EL, Euro, Copa America winners and finalists are a fragile bunch that won't be able to compete at the top level.

 

[stevoc]

Think Casemiro will go, Varane will be gone, the problem we will have is deciding who we want to keep as a squad player and if they will accept that role. I would keep McT for that, but if he wants to be a starter elsewhere then fair enough he can go. They also need to be able to negotiate good prices for outgoing players without being stupid. People are forgetting the insane wages some are on, not all. It will restrict the selling market unless players take a pay cut. I just can't get my head round how bad Rashford is, not sure if it is him being lazy or that his confidence has slumped that much he just cannot perform to standard.

Yep it will be a long process we can't just click our fingers and change the squad overnight. Ten Hag and the club had a tough job rebuilding this squad to title winning standard 2 years ago. Some will never admit though that Ten Hag has made that task even more difficult for his predecessor by squandering hundreds of millions on largely average, past it or injury prone players.

 

[CM]

I have been on the case of ETH and his nonsense but it's very difficult to not agree with the idea that yesterday the players also failed themselves and showed little character and grit. Of course one could argue that the manager is supposed to be a big overall influence in that aspect but during a game and during a game like a semi final there is little that a manager can do from a mental standpoint, that's why I laugh at people who are upset when the manager isn't acting like a lunatic on the sideline, most players won't notice or hear any of it.

The players may well be lacking in mentality but when you're conceding double figures shots every game, regardless of opposition, that's a pretty good indicator of a systemic problem.

Has there been any attempt to tweak the tactics so we aren't so open? The best coaches can react to problems on the fly and make the necessary changes. I can't remember the last time we did.

I feel completely disillusioned with Ten Hag as a fan of the team so I can't imagine what it must be like for the players who have to interact with him on a daily basis.

 

[Apokalips]

I genuinely think most of them are taking the piss. I keep asking people who post similar the same question and not many answer, even less with anything that makes sense.

They are being serious and you hear people like Neville say similar. The reason they, and Neville, can't back it up is because it is a compulsion of theirs to defend the manager and say whatever they can think of in defence of the manager without any actual depth of critical thinking.

I think a combination of us having a legendary manager at the helm for so long, coupled with said manager imploring us to "back the manager" and be patient, has led to this innate compulsion to blindly back managers amongst some of the fanbase. If any of these same fans had a builder working on their house doing as bad a job as Ten Hag was doing, there is not a chance they'd give the builder additional time to continue destroying their house. These same fans are nowhere near as lenient in their opinions on opposition managers or players.

 

[bleedred]

The people claiming we need a whole new squad for him to succeed, had the board given Eth say 10-15 new players, would then go on to claim," oh its a completely new squad, how can you expect them to gel together so soon, it's too many changes, f the board for doing this".

I mean we how many clubs have completely gutted thier squads over 2 seasons and gone on to succeed?.

 

[JPRouve]

The players may well be lacking in mentality but when you're conceding double figures shots every game, regardless of opposition, that's a pretty good indicator of a systemic problem.

Has there been any attempt to tweak the tactics so we aren't so open? The best coaches can react to problems on the fly and make the necessary changes. I can't remember the last time we did.

I feel completely disillusioned with Ten Hag as a fan of the team so I can't imagine what it must be like for the players who have to interact with him on a daily basis.

I agree with your general idea, I shared the same opinion. I'm just adding that yesterday, the players deserve to be heavily blamed for their response or lack of response.

 

[stevoc]

It's not all these players though is it? Some weren't here earlier on. Maybe it is the culture the club have allowed to happen, going to people behind the managers back. That should not be allowed unless it was something criminal, not just whining. The manager should also just be part of the buying and selling process, not the one running it completely like last season.

I think it's the managers job to instill a culture. I can see how that might prove difficult when working with a new squad. But 2 years and 60% new players later if the culture isn't right then I'd say that's on the manager as much as the players.

And I agree we've given managers far too much power over transfers. It's arguably the single biggest reason our transfer strategy has been so poor the last decade.