Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[DavelinaJolie]

I do want to cut him some slack, particularly around Mainoo and Garnacho subs, they are teenagers and have played a lot more than I imagine we would have thought at the start of the season. We don't want to Pedri our best young talents that look like they could be potential cornerstones of our team for years to come. It's why I've never had a problem with either being subbed or sitting a game out. That's a squad problem (which you can argue ETH contributed to wanting signings of players not up to snuff like Antony or Amrabat).

Also the team on the field absolutely should bear a large chunk of the responsibility for surrendering a 3 goal lead with 20 minutes left in normal time.

But I can't get my ahead around why Rashford remained on the pitch as long has he did, especially given his recent performances. And then he clearly got injured and was left out there. Same thing happened with Martinez's second injury didn't it? Didn't look right but remained on the pitch.

I still think he should go, but some things I have less of a problem with.

*Ducks*

 

[soapythecat]

Anyone in here genuinely think INEOS actually would have pulled trigger today if we lost yeaterday. Personally I have my doubts on that due to the fact there are only a few games left

I think there might be a none CL clause in his contract that makes paying him off cheaper - if so, we have a few more games to have to put up with first. If there isn't such a clause, then i'm not sure why he's still here.

 

[sparx99]

If you go further, to the premise of since Sir Alex, techincally it's only Evans and he had a small 9 year break in the middle, so can't blame him either. Rashford and Mctominay were in the u18's so they are a symptom not a cause.

I think personally it's a overall vibe thing, we requires a certain type of individuals to setup and inspire, it's more that we've lost those than gain some snake in the grass bad actors. When they aren't feeling it and the heads go down these guys quit, the 7-0 is a prime example. You need someone to grab the game by the balls and say no not happening today, even if it's to shut the game down and lose 3-0 instead. I'm not sure who that is in our current squad, I'm not sure we have one.

Players might be an issue, but our failures at the minute are also tactical, I'm sorry but conceding >20 shots every other game, that's not happening by accident. If you gave a footballing dinosaur like big Sam this team, the football would be terrible but we'd be compact. Ten Hagg is rolling the same dice again and again, we all know Scott McTominay doesn't work as a DM, keeps trying it.

Regarding the squad and its vibes I think that’s why I have such a problem with Bruno. As our Captain he sets the tone and while he played better than most yesterday he shows little composure at the best of times. That sets the tone for the team. When we concede the goal to make it 3-1 it should be Bruno getting the teams head straight. Instead he’s arguably the most likely to increase panic and give the ball away.

I think we need to completely rip apart the squad and sell 15+ players. The only way I see us starting next season with any positivity is if it feels like a completely new team.

 

[golden_blunder]

It's not really 14 out though is it?

Williams, Evans, Amrabat, DVB, Pellistri, Sancho, Hannibal, Martial and Greenwood aren't really in the squad anyway. So in reality it's 5 or 6 realistic first teamers leaving with 5 or 6 replacements.

Those 4 highlighted have all been part of the squad when fit, Sancho appearances and Hannibal a handful of sub appearances

Not as easy as you seem to think

 

[Telsim]

Completely agree with Keano, these players are weak-minded athletes

I imagine very few here want the manager gone and the players kept. The squad is rife with shitters that need to follow right after him. INEOS and their "All Star" team will quickly find themselves threading water if they lack the will to see this through.

 

[AndyMUFC]

People say about the players, but thinking about it I'm more than happy to give a lot of them a chance under a new set up.

Time should be up for the likes of Lindelof, Maguire, Wan-Bissaka, McTominay, Martial and Rashford that have had enough opportunities and I think everyone is bored of those players at this point, but we don't know how anyone that has only played under ETH is going to do.

 

[Paul778]

Neville is right, INEOS have removed the people that appointed Ten Hag. They clearly were unimpressed in what has happened and what is currently happening. I do think Ten Hag has been told he's gone end of the season, I also wouldn't be surprised if the players have been told - which has just added to the pathetic performances. We have a few dead rubbers in the league followed by a cup final in which we are huge underdogs - then it will be a new beginning under a new manager.

As I have said a few times... Everyone at the club knows that he's toast.

The only reason he hasn't been sacked is because there is nothing to play for - he can't do any more damage really. Therefore they are waiting until it's mathematically impossible to qualify for the champions league to give him the boot. However unlikely it is, whilst it's still possible to quality, any settlement over a severance package will have to include discussions over bonuses. Any executive position gets these and the obvious one would be CL qualification and I would guess such a bonus would be pretty substantial.

I would imagine an announcement would come out the week after CL qualification is no longer possible.

Some corners of the press are talking up a return to Ajax for him. If we can get a mutual deal that would be amazing all around.

 

[sparx99]

What do we mean by consistent, the players that ETH had yesterday have been with him for nearly two years and they were fit. The team that he had yesterday was fairly young and most of the players are also energetic, we are not going to pretend that McTominay, Dalot, Garnacho, Mainoo, Hojlund and Bruno aren't energetic or young enough, that's 6 members of the starting 11, he also had Mount, Amrabat and Diallo on the bench who are all energetic, relatively young and play in positions where we struggled.

I agree with your point if we are talking about playing at an elite level against an elite opposition. In that case the team will likely be outgun, the issue is that it's not our issue, our issue is that the team is subpar against everyone regardless of who is on the field. And in the case of yesterday, we have better players than Coventry, our slowest players were faster than theirs and none of their players was even close to the technical level of an average PL player(and no this isn't true for United players, not even the ones we don't like).

Mount and Amrabat weren’t in the squad.

 

[stevoc]

They only sell the idea for this particular club. Because they know it's what sells for this clubs fanbase and gets them riled up.

Certain characters in the media namely failed managers like Neville and Keane will never blame the manager. I don't think they're pushing a narrative for views or clicks. I think they're just wary of being branded hypothetical. And to a certain extent in their own experience they might well blame players for their failures as well.

 

[mythz]

I can't believe he is still here. That press conference after the match yesterday should alone got him sacked.

Are Ineos serious about this ?

 

[croadyman]

Just to clear it up I apportion blame to Erik AND the players not one or the other. The only trouble is due to FFP we can't have the squad culling needed

 

[ROFLUTION]

What's success defined as? Right now, our main priority is consistency between seasons and good cup runs. We can't keep doing this one good season, one bad season, throw the baby out with the bathwater approach.

It's clear that Ten Hag's methods aren't sustainable in a competitive league where his players aren't vastly better than the opposition 3 weekends out of 4, so the players we need to sign to make this work in the PL just don't exist.

De Zerbi or Southgate would most likely set us up in a way that was conducive to the players strengths and the PL as a competition. Once we start having regular top 4 finishes we can talk about 'success' and winning the big trophies, and if either of the names you mentioned aren't up to that next step then you say "thank you very much but you're not it" and you bring in the next manager who can make the step, and at this point your Zidane's, Ancelotti's, Enrique's etc are all interested in managing your club.

Right now people are talking about running before we can walk. We need years of sustained squad building, continuity between play styles and seasons first. If your reasons for not sacking Ten Hag are that a world class coach isn't available then Ten Hag's going to be here for life.

Im sorry, I just find it odd to see either one of those doing much better. It’d be a rebuilt to a new manager again imo. We could possibly be the same place like we are now, and no Zidane or Ancelotti will take over by then (Ancelotti’s gone by then too).

I dont think Ten Hag is doing a good job at all, but a reset also costs a lot of money. Id be much more in favor of finding a decided way we should aim to play at with the transferteam decing this, and then have a manager who plays to their whistle instead of the other way around, where each new manager has their own either pragmatical style like Mourinho or his own system like Van Gaal. Really hope INEOS sees it that way too. Id somehow say EtH is a modern manager, but he needs a team around him to work. Had that actually worked he might have had a chance here if we did shrewd business. A transferteam that goes for Rice instead of Casemiro, and knows whether Antony would be a match and overrules the manager for instance.

its not like EtH is without ability to develop what he has. Garnacho, Mainoo are the obvious examples, but Rashford also clicked last season, so he does have it in him. But I think too much has been a mess for too long now for him to turn it around.

Basically a manager at United should be really good at developing talent and playing in a modern entertaining way. We’ll have little money to spend, so it’s all about nurturing and finding the right talent and have a long term plan now.

 

[fergiewherearethou]

Yeah would say I'm shocked but then it's probably made up of people who religiously back managers no matter the performance on the pitch

If we continue with this religion we might see us going for another 10 years before a title challenge.

 

[Rake]

You can blame the players and they are at fault but this has happened so many times now that he surely should have devised a strategy to deal with such cases. Not being able to negate deficiencies in your team is a major downfall for all managers. Nobody is judged on his performance if he had 11 perfect players.

 

[croadyman]

I thought for sure he would be fired by this morning. What is SJR thinking? The longer he waits, the weaker he looks.

Was never happening with a FA Cup Final secured,interesting to see Tuchel is now just 4/1 for next manager on Skybet. Surely that guy who led Chelsea to Champions League is still in there and not Bayern manager from this season

 

[stefan92]

Was never happening with a FA Cup Final secured,interesting to see Tuchel is now just 4/1 for next manager on Skybet. Surely that guy who led Chelsea to Champions League is still in there and not Bayern manager from this season

Would you complain about the Bayern manager from this season, if he should win the CL again (which still is absolutely possible, his record against Real is quite positive)?

 

[sparx99]

How can you say you can't see those names being better? We're set up to have no midfield, if they do that they're instantly much better. Once you come to the understanding that the guy managing is is massively out of his depth you'll see that there are many coaches who could improve us.

Other than playing McTominay and Mainoo together in midfield and instructing them to be really defensive minded what other lineup could you put out there? McTominay being deployed further forward led to the first goal and we were comfortable for a lot of the game.

Our fit midfielders yesterday were McTominay, Mainoo, Eriksen, Bruno and Casemiro with Casemiro needed at CB. So broadly the choice was Mctominay or Bruno alongside Mainoo neither of whom seem capable of playing with discipline even if asked to.

I’m not absolving ETH here but looking at the available players currently and it’s hard to lineup with any kind of solidity even if we played deeper and more compact which is what I’d do. Even if you played that way it still relies on one of McTominay or Bruno tracking midfield runners. It still has Rashford not trying hard enough though I’d start Antony or Amad first with Garnacho on the left.

 

[Ubik]

Fair enough. So you are implying that this dozen of players are less representative or have less influence than the roughly the other half of the squad which is largely made of players who funnily enough were kings of comebacks under Ole.

I'm sorry but I can't defend that idea because we would have to literally rewrite these players history with and without the club. I will largely blame them for yesterday, I will also blame some of them for other isolated games the same way I would for a bunch of elite players/teams who every season shit the bed.

Our players have obvious flaws but they have drag themselves out of self created holes enough times to not be called fragile. Their flaws are football related, physical, technical and tactical.

I'm saying you can't list a bunch of honours (or finals in the case of some of them) and come to a conclusion about their mentality, particularly when it's just a one-off appearance. But I do tend to put something in certain players being common elements in 5-0, 4-0 and 7-0 losses to a single opponent under three separate managers. It's not that they're so fragile they can never mount a comeback, or never hold on to a lead, it's that in tough situations they are less likely to withstand pressure and buckle (or explode in one case). I think a few can improve in that respect given the right environment and other stronger heads around them, but they aren't going to do it themselves.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Think its more about giving some fresh perspective and context, although nostalgia can be a hell of a drug. People who suggest we bring back Ole are either taking the piss or have lost the plot.

Looks like Tuchel will be unemployed at the end of the season and i've read we have been in cotact with him

I don't really think it adds any context. It's more that United fans seem to have a weird, obsessive thing about managers. With Fergie, absolutely, but the rest? No, not for me. People done the same with Ole: When things hit rock bottom, all the Jose fans crawled out of the woodwork saying "at least he won trophies" etc. Now it's being done with ETH: The Ole fans ars piping up, but to be honest, they never really went away.

We've hired highly flawed managers time-and-again. That's the issue. None of them were actually any good despite being able to spend a tonne of money and having very little expectations placed upon them.

RedCafe loves to play this game where fans of certain managers will try all the mental gymnastics to paint that manager's tenure as the "best". The reality, of course, is that there is no best. It's literally a poll of who was the least shite. I've no doubt that if the next man turns out to be a dud, we'll have the ETH fans saying "oh but third place, 3 finals and a cup". Our current manager being awful doesn't exonerate any of his precedessors.

Re Tuchel: I mean, he's obviously a good manager but also a complete weirdo.

 

[JPRouve]

Mount and Amrabat weren’t in the squad.

A brainfart of mine.

 

[TrailMonkey]

Some corners of the press are talking up a return to Ajax for him. If we can get a mutual deal that would be amazing all around.

Can we throw in Antony and DVB as part of the deal?

 

[Delano]

It's groundhog day for 9 months now. The same performance, the same formation, the same fragility.

How can anyone expect anything to change with EtH? He's shown you time and time again that he will not adapt. Injuries are not an excuse either, we were terrible at the start of the season as well.

 

[Shinjch]

Mental fragility or strength implies that it's a definite condition. So their larger body of work is what matters, in fact it matters significantly more then any recent observation. It's nearly impossible to justify the claim that players that have overcome adversity at an elite level are fragile because in a shorter amount of time at United they didn't overcome adversity.
If there is a deviation from their previous norm than you should logically pause and wonder what is the difference, one big difference is that their current manager has no actual track record at an elite level, an other difference is that from a technical standpoint our best players aren't as good as the best players in current elite teams and a third difference, the manager heavily altered his system to one that didn't work in preseason and still doesn't which after nearly a year can and will be draining.

A lot of these players that have formed a large part of the squad have shown the same mental frailties under Ole, so the manager isn't really the deviation for them logically. The number of late goals they have conceded, the number of hammerings they have suffered, the number of terrible decisions when under pressure and the number of times we concede one goal and then capitulate says to me there is mentality problem in the playing group. I don't think the collapse yesterday was down to ability, but I do think it was down to mentality.

I don't expect the next manager to be able to fix that longer term unless there is a cull in the squad. Ortherwise we are just signing players to put into a bad group.

 

[croadyman]

Would you complain about the Bayern manager from this season, if he should win the CL again (which still is absolutely possible, his record against Real is quite positive)?

My only concern with Tuchel really is how it completely unravelled at Chelsea,all started with that touchline spat after they drew with Spurs

 

[hobbers]

From Simon Stone:

Ten Hag is clearly under pressure.

However, his supporters continue to make the comparison with Mikel Arteta, who won the FA Cup in his first season as Arsenal boss but also finished eighth twice and then fifth before getting the squad he wanted.

Their win percentage is broadly similar, which fuels belief the situation is not quite as bad as some of the recent performances have made it appear.


Looks like he's literally ripping old debunked arguments straight from this thread. Also deeply unsettling when you get journalists referring to managers having their own supporters, rather than just "united supporters"

 

[JPRouve]

I'm saying you can't list a bunch of honours (or finals in the case of some of them) and come to a conclusion about their mentality, particularly when it's just a one-off appearance. But I do tend to put something in certain players being common elements in 5-0, 4-0 and 7-0 losses to a single opponent under three separate managers. It's not that they're so fragile they can never mount a comeback, or never hold on to a lead, it's that in tough situations they are less likely to withstand pressure and buckle (or explode in one case). I think a few can improve in that respect given the right environment and other stronger heads around them, but they aren't going to do it themselves.

It's not what I did. The point I responded to was about mental fragility and their inability to reach top level Football. None of these players have demonstrated mental fragility and the players mentioned competed at an elite level.

 

[sparx99]

Let’s have a look at three of our last four matches:

Coventry in FA Cup, we’re winning 3-0, takes Garnacho off after 66 minutes, we end up drawing 3-3

Liverpool in the league, we’re winning 2-1, takes Garnacho off after 79 minutes, we end up drawing 2-2

Chelsea in the league, we’re winning 3-2, takes Garnacho off after 86 minutes, we lose 4-3


...in my opinion, there is a strong argument to suggest that Ten Hag’s in-game management is severely lacking - his decisions negatively affect us.

Taking a winger off should have little bearing on the results at that point. I’m sure there are example of us giving up leads with Garnacho playing there full 90.

It’s a wider problem with how we defend under pressure and an inability to keep the ball and calm the game down. Even when we tried to do that at Chelsea we are so vulnerable as soon as we do lose it.

 

[Shinjch]

It's not what I did. The point I responded to was about mental fragility and their inability to reach top level Football. None of these players have demonstrated mental fragility and the players mentioned competed at an elite level.

Oh come on, Wan Bissaka in particular displays it on a regular basis. He isn't alone, he is just the most clearly obvious example.

 

[JPRouve]

A lot of these players that have formed a large part of the squad have shown the same mental frailties under Ole, so the manager isn't really the deviation for them logically. The number of late goals they have conceded, the number of hammerings they have suffered, the number of terrible decisions when under pressure and the number of times we concede one goal and then capitulate says to me there is mentality problem in the playing group. I don't think the collapse yesterday was down to ability, but I do think it was down to mentality.

I don't expect the next manager to be able to fix that longer term unless there is a cull in the squad. Ortherwise we are just signing players to put into a bad group.

As I mentioned it under Ole these players routinely mounted comebacks, it's actually the opposite of what you are suggesting. It's actually one of the reasons I lost faith in Ole, the 20/21 season was totally unsustainable, you can't expect your team to have to mount comebacks that often, you can't win consistently just out of character and individual brilliance.

 

[JPRouve]

Oh come on, Wan Bissaka in particular displays it on a regular basis. He isn't alone, he is just the most clearly obvious example.

I didn't list Wan Bissaka. But it's getting tiresome, you are right Wan Bissaka and his career are the most accurate representation of the team.

 

[Shinjch]

As I mentioned it under Ole these players routinely mounted comebacks, it's actually the opposite of what you are suggesting. It's actually one of the reasons I lost faith in Ole, the 20/21 season was totally unsustainable, you can't expect your team to have to mount comebacks that often, you can't win consistently just out of character and individual brilliance.

Mounting comebacks isn't a key indicator of mental fortitude in sport to me. Consistency of performance and being able to deliver when the chips are down will always highlight it better. The comebacks under Ole showed that they were able to push through when the momentum started to build in a game. Absolutely agreed that it was never sustainable, same as the current football being served up will get the club nowhere in the long term. Anyway, yea happy to leave it there, we just seem to have different views on the squads mental strength.

 

[Big Ben Foster]

I think there might be a none CL clause in his contract that makes paying him off cheaper - if so, we have a few more games to have to put up with first. If there isn't such a clause, then i'm not sure why he's still here.

Even then, it's penny wise and pound foolish. Why wait until CL is gone to save a few million instead of proactively making a change earlier in the season to try to prevent the enormous revenue and brand loss from not being in the CL?

 

[Hughes35]

Those 4 highlighted have all been part of the squad when fit, Sancho appearances and Hannibal a handful of sub appearances

Not as easy as you seem to think

Evans - 1290 Minutes (13 full games)
Amrabat - 1160 minutes (12 full games)
Pellistri - 366 minutes (4 full games)
Martial - 629 Minutes (6 and a bit full games)
Hannibal - 327 Minutes (4 full games)
Sancho - 76 Minutes (Less than 1 game)

Those 4 highlighted players + Sancho and Hannibal have a combined 40 full games between them. (Average 6.6 games each). So yea, that's pretty easy to replace.

 

[JPRouve]

Mounting comebacks isn't a key indicator of mental fortitude in sport to me. Consistency of performance and being able to deliver when the chips are down will always highlight it better. The comebacks under Ole showed that they were able to push through when the momentum started to build in a game. Absolutely agreed that it was never sustainable, same as the current football being served up will get the club nowhere in the long term. Anyway, yea happy to leave it there, we just seem to have different views on the squads mental strength.

What is a better indicator of delivering when the chips are down than consistently coming back? And consistency of performances has more to do with your overall floor level, whether it is tactical, technical and/or mental, it isn't a good indicator of mental fortitude. Teams are consistent at all sorts of level, for good or bad reasons.

Generally mental fortitude has more to do with how one deals with out of the ordinary events or unexpected events whether they are good or bad. At least that's how I see it.

 

[stefan92]

What is a better indicator of delivering when the chips are down than consistently coming back? And consistency of performances has more to do with your overall floor level, whether it is tactical, technical and/or mental, it isn't a good indicator of mental fortitude. Teams are consistent at all sorts of level, for good or bad reasons.

Generally mental fortitude has more to do with how one deals with out of the ordinary events or unexpected events whether they are good or bad. At least that's how I see it.

Not conceding first and therefore not needing a lot of comebacks would obviously be better.

 

[JPRouve]

Not conceding first and therefore not needing a lot of comebacks would obviously be better.

Absolutely.

 

[croadyman]

Even then, it's penny wise and pound foolish. Why wait until CL is gone to save a few million instead of proactively making a change earlier in the season to try to prevent the enormous revenue and brand loss from not being in the CL?

Yeah exactly that clause saw LVG stay on much longer than he should. How on earth he survived that December I will never know

 

[Shinjch]

What is a better indicator of delivering when the chips are down than consistently coming back? And consistency of performances has more to do with your overall floor level, whether it is tactical, technical and/or mental, it isn't a good indicator of mental fortitude. Teams are consistent at all sorts of level, for good or bad reasons.

Generally mental fortitude has more to do with how one deals with out of the ordinary events or unexpected events whether they are good or bad. At least that's how I see it.

Fair enough, we see it differently. I see comebacks against teams that we should be able to beat as us getting a goal being able to use the momentum to push it over the line when things start to go well. I think showing consistent performance exhibits a responsibility and will that your standards don't slip from game to game or tactic to tactic.

I am absolutely with you on the bolded part, so many of our players have collapsed time and time gain when out of the ordinary events happen in games and that has gone back years. You wouldn't back our team to hold on to a 1 goal lead if they get a player sent off ever for example.

 

[JPRouve]

Yeah exactly that clause saw LVG stay on much longer than he should. How on earth he survived that December I will never know

Injuries. That injury crisis was incredibly bad. At some point we started with Borthwick Jackson, Mcnair and Varela.

 

[spwd]

Woke up thinking I might read something about him being sacked, but nah fecking Rattclife you coward.

Yeah same here. After that shitshow a statement first thing this morning that he's going at the end of the season at the latest for not getting CL should've been the minimum so I'm extremely disappointed in Jim and his gang.
This nonsense about having to wait for Ashworth is ridiculous too unless they've fecked it up by sacking everyone that had the power to sack him but I don't believe that so Wtf are they waiting for?
They've been pretty open about everything else so why go quiet when they must know we're waiting for something.
Hopefully it's just that they're working on it now and will release something before the end of the day.