Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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From Simon Stone:

Ten Hag is clearly under pressure.

However, his supporters continue to make the comparison with Mikel Arteta, who won the FA Cup in his first season as Arsenal boss but also finished eighth twice and then fifth before getting the squad he wanted.

Their win percentage is broadly similar, which fuels belief the situation is not quite as bad as some of the recent performances have made it appear.



Looks like he's literally ripping old debunked arguments straight from this thread. Also deeply unsettling when you get journalists referring to managers having their own supporters, rather than just "united supporters"


With Arteta you could see a strategy, a game plan. He knew the players he needed to cut and wasn’t afraid to get rid of the big earners (Ozil/Aubamayang etc)

ETH looks clueless at times. I have no idea about what the game plan is. He’s afraid to drop stars or even sub them off.

Weird how he keeps getting compared to Arteta
 
As I mentioned it under Ole these players routinely mounted comebacks, it's actually the opposite of what you are suggesting. It's actually one of the reasons I lost faith in Ole, the 20/21 season was totally unsustainable, you can't expect your team to have to mount comebacks that often, you can't win consistently just out of character and individual brilliance.

Didn’t we concede first in an absurd amount of games that season?
 
From Simon Stone:

Ten Hag is clearly under pressure.

However, his supporters continue to make the comparison with Mikel Arteta, who won the FA Cup in his first season as Arsenal boss but also finished eighth twice and then fifth before getting the squad he wanted.

Their win percentage is broadly similar, which fuels belief the situation is not quite as bad as some of the recent performances have made it appear.



Looks like he's literally ripping old debunked arguments straight from this thread. Also deeply unsettling when you get journalists referring to managers having their own supporters, rather than just "united supporters"
Time + Arteta has made it to the media
 
Yeah same here. After that shitshow a statement first thing this morning that he's going at the end of the season at the latest for not getting CL should've been the minimum so I'm extremely disappointed in Jim and his gang.
This nonsense about having to wait for Ashworth is ridiculous too unless they've fecked it up by sacking everyone that had the power to sack him but I don't believe that so Wtf are they waiting for?
They've been pretty open about everything else so why go quiet when they must know we're waiting for something.
Hopefully it's just that they're working on it now and will release something before the end of the day.

I was going to say something about maybe candidates not wanting to talk too much until United executives are free to talk to them. But wasn't it reported that City know and are fine with Berrada being heavily involved with United? He is the most important figure above even Ashworth.
 
To those who cannot wrap their head around him still being in the gig - there is little point to sacking him now rather than the end of the season. There would likely be a bigger payout now, for one. There would be the added headache of sourcing and appointing an interim manager. We also know by these players that will likely not react to an interim appointment and will continue to be dreadful just like with Rangnick. He is here until the season finishes and INEOS will allow him enough rope to hang himself.
 
Didn’t we concede first in an absurd amount of games that season?

Yes, that's the point. We messed up and put ourselves in bad spots but the players didn't gave up or demonstrated mental weakness. As far as I know mental strength isn't just about doing things well and only well, it's also about messing up maybe even messing up regularly and pulling yourself up and find the strength to fix it.
In fact from memory our standard issue was that we were generally structurally poor, the opposition would make us pay and our response was to create chaos and outgun the opposition.

The point isn't that we were good or highly flawed in many aspects but that the reason we had a good season in terms of result was largely due to a never die mentality. And we finished second.


Edit: To me under Ole we were all heart and no brain.
 
To those who cannot wrap their head around him still being in the gig - there is little point to sacking him now rather than the end of the season. There would likely be a bigger payout now, for one. There would be the added headache of sourcing and appointing an interim manager. We also know by these players that will likely not react to an interim appointment and will continue to be dreadful just like with Rangnick. He is here until the season finishes and INEOS will allow him enough rope to hang himself.
If we had nothing to play for, I'd agree. However, we've miraculously made a final and, in my opinion, our best chance of winning it is getting an interim manager in. We can give ourselves the hope of ending another depressing season on a high if we act quickly, which we're not going to do, but I personally think we should.
 
I think it's the managers job to instill a culture. I can see how that might prove difficult when working with a new squad. But 2 years and 60% new players later if the culture isn't right then I'd say that's on the manager as much as the players.

And I agree we've given managers far too much power over transfers. It's arguably the single biggest reason our transfer strategy has been so poor the last decade.
We have been giving managers power because the ones in charge had no idea what they were doing and presumed the managers did regarding recruiting players. The culture of going behind managers backs to the likes of Woodward has been going on since SAF left and there have been a couple of really high profile managers during that time. We created a culture of letting players having power on if a manager stays or goes and that should never be their choice.
 
The best scenario now is he somehow lucks the cup and then leaves the club. He will leave with two trophies in two years and can likely go back to Ajax and rebuild. That kind of trophy success would usually make me say give him another season, but what is happening on the pitch is just not good enough. Has there ever been a time where a manager turned around an awful team this far into the slide?

I still think he could turn up in a few years at a Bayern Munich and do well. Maybe the sort of club where all the pieces are already in place.
 
To those who cannot wrap their head around him still being in the gig - there is little point to sacking him now rather than the end of the season. There would likely be a bigger payout now, for one. There would be the added headache of sourcing and appointing an interim manager. We also know by these players that will likely not react to an interim appointment and will continue to be dreadful just like with Rangnick. He is here until the season finishes and INEOS will allow him enough rope to hang himself.
Agree there is no point. They now have to make sure they get the infrastructure in place and let them get on with their jobs regarding who a new managers is going to be if there is going to be one. I hope they have already made decisions on some of the players. If not they will just be wasting more precious time.
 
To those who cannot wrap their head around him still being in the gig - there is little point to sacking him now rather than the end of the season. There would likely be a bigger payout now, for one. There would be the added headache of sourcing and appointing an interim manager. We also know by these players that will likely not react to an interim appointment and will continue to be dreadful just like with Rangnick. He is here until the season finishes and INEOS will allow him enough rope to hang himself.
Nah. Would have been a big statement of intent that new management is here to set some standards. But no, let's plod on in the muck.
 
It is fair but regarding Rashford, Eriksen and Casemiro one has to question our setup. Even if in theory it was a setup that has ever worked anywhere, is it a good fit for Eriksen and Casemiro or even Amrabat? Is that how you optimize their production?

I don't see any issue with the setup for Rashford (and his form is has always been widely inconsistent), the midfielders fair enough but then again when you watch the game and they give the ball away cheaply or can't make 10 yard passes that's not a setup issue
 
That is fair but the question posed was "could a better manager get a tune out of these players".

Yes but Ten Hag himself had this squad performing better last season. It wouldnt be his fault for the underperformance of some players this season. But the majority of the squad are performing poorly. It can't all be just down to the individual players, very few of them look good in the setup we're employing.

Very few of them were relied upon last season
 
ETH is not our main problem but I don't see him as part of the solution either. He's stubborn, his man management is meah and I very much doubt that he had realized how physical the EPL is. That's clear with his obsession with short CBs, two no 10s in CM and inside forwards on the flanks

One can be anti ETH and anti players at the same time
 
Yeah same here. After that shitshow a statement first thing this morning that he's going at the end of the season at the latest for not getting CL should've been the minimum so I'm extremely disappointed in Jim and his gang.
This nonsense about having to wait for Ashworth is ridiculous too unless they've fecked it up by sacking everyone that had the power to sack him but I don't believe that so Wtf are they waiting for?
They've been pretty open about everything else so why go quiet when they must know we're waiting for something.
Hopefully it's just that they're working on it now and will release something before the end of the day.
I didn't think Jim was the man, still don't, and he isn't proving me wrong the way he's handling ETH.
 
I don't see any issue with the setup for Rashford (and his form is has always been widely inconsistent), the midfielders fair enough but then again when you watch the game and they give the ball away cheaply or can't make 10 yard passes that's not a setup issue

Regarding Rashford I don't either, I simply opened the question. If a team changes the way they play and a player has a drastically different production then the first question is about the obvious changes.
 
See people already giving Tuchel the same level of hostility as Potter and Southgate
 
It's all well and good blaming the players but when you've seen the same thing occuring consistently week on week for 9 months, that is clearly the result of poor instruction and/or no direction.

The players may not be perfect but the system they're playing is simply not fit for purpose. Worse teams play better than us every week.
I'm firmly in the 'the problems are both players and manager' camp but i mean, it's pretty brain dead and ridiculous if a bunch of players can't realise when to take the sting out of the game or when to speed up the tempo. You don't need a manager to tell you that at 3-0 up against a championship side. It's so basic.

I remember Wenger-one of the premier league all time greats- having problems with the idiocy of some of his later Arsenal teams that were winning games 4-2 or 4-3 or whatever and would collapse in the final few seconds when they had opportunities to take the ball to the corner and waste a bit of time.
 
Regarding Rashford I don't either, I simply opened the question. If a team changes the way they play and a player has a drastically different production then the first question is about the obvious changes.

You also have to ask questions if a player has drastically varied production over their career across multiple managers. You also have to ask questions if a players production is below that of less experienced players in the same setup.
 
See people already giving Tuchel the same level of hostility as Potter and Southgate

The question I have is what is involved in the rebuild? How far off challanging do they think we are ? How many players in this squad will be here in 2 years? Which players have the character and mentality?

If Tuchel is explosive, how does he fit into a long term plan?
 
You also have to ask questions if a player has drastically varied production over their career across multiple managers. You also have to ask questions if a players production is below that of less experienced players in the same setup.

Totally. Which makes the answer not as simple as x is mentally fragile/strong. Good and bad performances are more likely due to a range of reasons.
 
Totally. Which makes the answer not as simple as x is mentally fragile/strong. Good and bad performances are more likely due to a range of reasons.

I didn't say it was about mentality.
Some of the reasons are more obvious than others.
For instance Casemiro has been injured the majority of the season, and we saw Eriksens performances drop later half of last season when he returned from his long injury lay off. (His just doesn't have the engine any longer it seems)
 
I'm firmly in the 'the problems are both players and manager' camp but i mean, it's pretty brain dead and ridiculous if a bunch of players can't realise when to take the sting out of the game or when to speed up the tempo. You don't need a manager to tell you that at 3-0 up against a championship side. It's so basic.

I remember Wenger-one of the premier league all time greats- having problems with the idiocy of some of his later Arsenal teams that were winning games 4-2 or 4-3 or whatever and would collapse in the final few seconds when they had opportunities to take the ball to the corner and waste a bit of time.

This for me is a massive red flag. Not one cynicle foul , not one “injury” to slow play down. This has happened in alot of games where there isn’t one player with the intelligence to do something to breakup a wave of attacks/momentum. I’ve even coached some of the younger lads I’ve coached to do that.
 
The question I have is what is involved in the rebuild? How far off challanging do they think we are ? How many players in this squad will be here in 2 years? Which players have the character and mentality?

If Tuchel is explosive, how does he fit into a long term plan?

I'm not denying that he's not fiery (look at the spat with Conte at Chelsea) but maybe we need someone who isn't afraid to shake these players up when they aren't performing. There seems to be no consequences for not putting in effort
 
Guy had people that have been in this thread defending him, wishing we’d lose the shoot-out yesterday.

It’s over.
 
I didn't say it was about mentality.
Some of the reasons are more obvious than others.
For instance Casemiro has been injured the majority of the season, and we saw Eriksens performances drop later half of last season when he returned from his long injury lay off. (His just doesn't have the engine any longer it seems)

I don't see any player in this world that has the engine to cover the midfield in our current setup. I don't even want to disagree with you because I don't know but the context that we have had all season is a setup that is by design uncoverable. But you could be right and these players engines would be insufficient in a balanced system.
 
Im sorry, I just find it odd to see either one of those doing much better. It’d be a rebuilt to a new manager again imo. We could possibly be the same place like we are now, and no Zidane or Ancelotti will take over by then (Ancelotti’s gone by then too).

I dont think Ten Hag is doing a good job at all, but a reset also costs a lot of money. Id be much more in favor of finding a decided way we should aim to play at with the transferteam decing this, and then have a manager who plays to their whistle instead of the other way around, where each new manager has their own either pragmatical style like Mourinho or his own system like Van Gaal. Really hope INEOS sees it that way too. Id somehow say EtH is a modern manager, but he needs a team around him to work. Had that actually worked he might have had a chance here if we did shrewd business. A transferteam that goes for Rice instead of Casemiro, and knows whether Antony would be a match and overrules the manager for instance.

its not like EtH is without ability to develop what he has. Garnacho, Mainoo are the obvious examples, but Rashford also clicked last season, so he does have it in him. But I think too much has been a mess for too long now for him to turn it around.

Basically a manager at United should be really good at developing talent and playing in a modern entertaining way. We’ll have little money to spend, so it’s all about nurturing and finding the right talent and have a long term plan now.
Do we not need a rebuild now anyway? And what would be the point in hiring all these technical positions around the manager (DOF, Technical director, etc) if we're just going to let Ten Hag or the next manager rebuild the squad in their image? The new recruitment team are going to do all the hiring and firing from this point on so the managers position should be scrutinised for the actual managing, not all these intangibles and what ifs.

Ten Hag got lucky with Garnacho and Mainoo. Mainoo has been chased by City since before Ten Hag arrived and Garnacho was poached from Atletico Madrid after being identified as one of the best up and coming young talents in Europe, just before Brexit came into effect. These players would have succeeded regardless of who our manager was these last couple of years.
 
I don't see any player in this world that has the engine to cover the midfield in our current setup. I don't even want to disagree with you because I don't know but the context that we have had all season is a setup that is by design uncoverable. But you could be right and these players engines would be insufficient in a balanced system.

Thats a separate topic because the midfielders are not really supposed to cover all that space as the manager has already said. The defensive line and pressing instructions comes into to it, but given we have not even had a proper defensive line all season the manager should have adapted and he didn't.
Regardless we can compare players performances with others in the team in the same setup and its fair to say some of the experienced players have far underperformed compared to some of the younger players which is not acceptable.
Klopp struggled quite badly last season when he was also unable to achieve balance in the squad it can happen and not always be related soley on the setup, not to mention some of the themes we see span across more than one manager
 
Villa only need to win one more game and it will be mathematically impossible for us to get top 4. That's when ETH will be fired or at least announced to be at the end of the season.

Let the FA cup final be his last hurrah.
 
Other than playing McTominay and Mainoo together in midfield and instructing them to be really defensive minded what other lineup could you put out there? McTominay being deployed further forward led to the first goal and we were comfortable for a lot of the game.

Our fit midfielders yesterday were McTominay, Mainoo, Eriksen, Bruno and Casemiro with Casemiro needed at CB. So broadly the choice was Mctominay or Bruno alongside Mainoo neither of whom seem capable of playing with discipline even if asked to.

I’m not absolving ETH here but looking at the available players currently and it’s hard to lineup with any kind of solidity even if we played deeper and more compact which is what I’d do. Even if you played that way it still relies on one of McTominay or Bruno tracking midfield runners. It still has Rashford not trying hard enough though I’d start Antony or Amad first with Garnacho on the left.
A good manager finds a way to win games regardless of the selection issues. I've seen us beat Arsenal with a midfield filled with defenders. There's more than one way to play football but for some reason Ten Hag has convinced our fans that this is all that we're capable of and there's no other possible way to play, when the reality is that it's all that he's capable of because he's so one dimensional.

There's no reason for our forward line and defensive line to be so far apart, there's no reason for us to be so open in the middle. We don't have to set up defensively. Some of the most attacking football we've ever played was formed on the basis of a counter attacking side.
 
I thought for sure he would be fired by this morning. What is SJR thinking? The longer he waits, the weaker he looks.

Weakness is actually bowing down to fan pressure, which Woodward and the previous regime were known for.
 
A good manager finds a way to win games regardless of the selection issues. I've seen us beat Arsenal with a midfield filled with defenders. There's more than one way to play football but for some reason Ten Hag has convinced our fans that this is all that we're capable of and there's no other possible way to play, when the reality is that it's all that he's capable of because he's so one dimensional.

There's no reason for our forward line and defensive line to be so far apart, there's no reason for us to be so open in the middle. We don't have to set up defensively. Some of the most attacking football we've ever played was formed on the basis of a counter attacking side.

Team was 3-0 up with the opposition having had about 1 or 2 shots in the game, what happened after that wasn't about tactics
Saying that for the season you are correct, but it didn't really apply yesterday, that was total lack of discipline
 
To those who cannot wrap their head around him still being in the gig - there is little point to sacking him now rather than the end of the season. There would likely be a bigger payout now, for one. There would be the added headache of sourcing and appointing an interim manager. We also know by these players that will likely not react to an interim appointment and will continue to be dreadful just like with Rangnick. He is here until the season finishes and INEOS will allow him enough rope to hang himself.
I doubt there would be a bigger payout when we're mathematically one Villa win away from no CL football. There are many interims available, McLaren, Keane, Ole etc. Any one of them would gladly take the job for a few weeks. And the players reacted absolutely fine to Ole when he came in as interim, its almost like they will play for people who don't tell the media they all need replacing every week in the media.
 
Team was 3-0 up with the opposition having had about 1 or 2 shots in the game, what happened after that wasn't about tactics
Saying that for the season you are correct, but it didn't really apply yesterday, that was total lack of discipline
And I'm not saying yesterday wasn't on the players, but the manager has no idea how to address these collapses either. They made one change and scored 4 goals, Ten Hag had no answer to it.
 
Thats a separate topic because the midfielders are not really supposed to cover all that space as the manager has already said. The defensive line and pressing instructions comes into to it, but given we have not even had a proper defensive line all season the manager should have adapted and he didn't.
Regardless we can compare players performances with others in the team in the same setup and its fair to say some of the experienced players have far underperformed compared to some of the younger players which is not acceptable.
Klopp struggled quite badly last season when he was also unable to achieve balance in the squad it can happen and not always be related soley on the setup, not to mention some of the themes we see span across more than one manager

I'm not having that first paragraph. There is no scenario where you can tell me that the midfielders aren't supposed to cover all that space when it was already an issue during preseason and the manager made no adjustment, if he didn't make adjustments then it's what he wants.

And no team has the same setup.
 
And I'm not saying yesterday wasn't on the players, but the manager has no idea how to address these collapses either. They made one change and scored 4 goals, Ten Hag had no answer to it.

That because it was not a tactical thing, watch the game again, players start doing their own thing is not tactical
 
I'm not having that first paragraph. There is no scenario where you can tell me that the midfielders aren't supposed to cover all that space when it was already an issue during preseason and the manager made no adjustment, if he didn't make adjustments then it's what he wants.

And no team has the same setup.

Except his previous
 
The question I have is what is involved in the rebuild? How far off challanging do they think we are ? How many players in this squad will be here in 2 years? Which players have the character and mentality?

If Tuchel is explosive, how does he fit into a long term plan?
He'd be a 2 year manager. Maybe the new sporting crew want someone a bit more long term. Plus we're never clearing the decks and starting from fresh with the squad in 1 window. I full expect numerous players just not getting the hint and sitting out their contracts, whilst causing issues in the dressing room. So Tuchel would have issues managing such an environment.
 
Guy had people that have been in this thread defending him, wishing we’d lose the shoot-out yesterday.

It’s over.

I'm probably in that camp to be fair. I've been a supporter to EtH throughout but at this point it's just so predictably bad and it seems like nothing is changing for the better.. just a continuation of chaotic football with a gaping hole in the middle. We were so naive against Galatasary and still yesterday against Coventry.. nothing has changed.

Knowing we'll get smashed by a dominant City, there's really no joy in reaching the final, so it was almost a case of just put us out of our misery and give Coventry a moment of glory.

I wish EtH could have fixed it but seeing how Garnacho is heading down the Sancho route (and f Sancho btw) I just don't wanna see any more damage to an already smashed squad. We're on our knees.

I hate the idea of Southgate but can see some logic, for example, I think we're more than a 2 year project, so perhaps just bring him in as the diplomat while our new structure figures out the transfer strategy and has a clear out and then look to bring in a Fergie v2.0 in a couple years time
 
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