Of course this theory requires us to assume SAF, Pep or Johan would be failing as badly as Ten Hag and making all the same mistakes or that Ten Hag is as good as those 3 managers and it's just all on the players why we're failing.
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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Of course this theory requires us to assume SAF, Pep or Johan would be failing as badly as Ten Hag and making all the same mistakes or that Ten Hag is as good as those 3 managers and it's just all on the players why we're failing.
Sack him, and get rid of the oap's in the squad. I'm so feckin tired of watching absolute dross one minute, then something approaching good football the next.
First I need to know if you are talking about the accomplished versions of these managers, if yes then we need to keep in mind that United have done large squad overhauls for nearly all managers with Moyes being the exceptions due to his own way of doing things. So in United's world no player is actually safe and all managers have been given a lot of money to build their "own" team and there is no scenario where these managers wouldn't be given even more power.
Also one of the issue which is kind of trivialized by the framing of your questions is that Sir Alex, Guardiola and Cruyff are/were infinitely better managers than anything we have had since 2013. It's like comparing prime Ronaldo with a washed up Jermaine Defoe.
Garnacho is in his second season of senior football.
The worlds greatest coach probably would have managed a win vs a mid-table Championship side even with the players available.
Agreed on McTominay, which raises the question as to why Ten Hag has insisted on playing him there for large parts of the season.
Yep the job is just too big for him.
He has to go , to come out and say that Sunday was not an embarrassment has no right to be United manager.
Just scrapping past. Championship team due to VAR, does not matter VAR was correct, this totally unacceptable.
Just scrapping past. Championship team due to VAR, does not matter VAR was correct, this totally unacceptable.
I’m pointing out that It continues to always be the managers fault. The common denominator under every manager we’ve had since sir Alex is the players. Keano called it under ole saying players threw Jose under the bus were going to do it to ole and they are doing It again for ETH
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But the if is important here. Given the number of injured players we have and the fact they are teenagers.
The implication behind you previous post was that they could have played more as you said they would have had 6 dead rubbers where they could have time off. I’m just disagreeing that that was definitely the case.
Yes they could have.
And yes they could have been injured if they stayed on. And yes people probably would have moaned. But any player that plays 90 minutes can get injured, that's life.
Do you know for a fact that Erik took them off as he was worried about them getting injured?
McTominay cannot midfield, that's why he's deployed in attacking position by Ten Hag.
You can clearly see ETH design in that team. McTominay bombing forward, Bruno dropping deeper - this is all happening this season.
I don't mind McTominay in attacking position, he is just as likely to score a goal as Hojlund. The problem is neither him / Bruno are any good at A) progressing the ball and B) defending, so that is a really shit setup by the manager.
Agreed.
And yeah shit setup by Ten Hag and it's been shit all season.
And not one person on here seems to be able to offer up one plausible reason as to why he has persisted with a set-up that clearly isn't working, all season.
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This is an oft repeated lazy argument. How many players from Jose's last season are still at the club? Dalot, Lindelof, Shaw, Martial, Rashford and McTominay.
Martial is a non-entity and Shaw has barely played this season so wouldn't have been around the dressing room all that much. Dalot has been one of the better players. So from that list you have Rashford, McTominay and Lindelof throwing the manager under the bus? Even if we believe this it's 3 players out of a squad of 25.
I don't dispute for some players ( Rashford, Di Maria, Pogba maybe) attitude has been an issue. But for the majority of our squads over the last decade, the issue has been quality. Most of the players simply haven't been good enough at the time they were here to be able to win us titles. Most of the managers haven't been good enough either. There's no deep conspiracy by the players.
As bad as our performances have gotten, I would dearly love to see ETH win the FA Cup. Huge ask against the 115, but he has been served such a poor hand this season, it would be a minor miracle and welcome relief to land some silverware. Whether or not that will save him, well, I doubt it, but somehow I don't detest the manager as much as others do. He's gotten plenty wrong, but I like that he's tried (albeit failed) to instill a sense of discipline at our treacherous club. 
If you buy or give contract to those players then you have to play a system that suits them. Sir Alex during his last few years picked his two from Carrick, Scholes and Giggs, neither of whom had the legs, but he played to their strengths and won us titles. We are not even asking this clown to win us titles. The bar is so low for him that people would be happy with some decent football or us not folding like a pack of cards against a mid-table championship in a Wembley semi-final. He is being asked the bare minimum.
The injury excuse is pathetic too. I can't remember a season in the last few Fergie years when we didn't have Carrick playing CB for at least a few games in a season. But that was never used an excuse by us. Now the standards have fallen so far and the cult of manager has become so strong that we have to excuse everything for these bozo managers, who we as fans owe nothing.
He is not living in poverty: he has 4 central defenders who cost a combined 210m pounds. If the first choice goes down, he gets to replace him with another International defender. And again, we are not asking him to win titles with that defense, the ask is to play some decent football and not fold like clowns.
GK - Onana, Bayinder
Defense - Martinez, Malacia
Midfield - Casemiro, Eriksen, Amrabat, Mount, Mainoo
Attack - Antony, Hojlund, Garnacho
These are all the players he bought or introduced. Except the defenders he bought and Mount, rest have played or have been available for a lot of time this season. Still we don't have a style of play or I should say play suicidal football completely unsuited to English football, where there are gimmes. You have to fight for victory in each and every game. You can leave spaces in behind for fast and physical players to exploit each game and expect that they won't hurt you.
Listen, I agree that he's likely gone, but statements like 'except the defenders and Mount...' - that's half his outfield signings that haven't been available this year. (I maintain Eriksen was a free designed for 10 minute cameos, and Amrabat is a desperate loan cause we're skint). It's not nothing. We once again went into a match basically fielding Ole's team, with a few youth graduates and a new keeper. And no bench.
Usually, whenever there is a big executive overhaul, the senior operating managers are at risk (in this case EtH), irrespective of their past performance.
Even if EtH would have got us to finish in the top 4, he would be under the scanner (similar situation to Tuchel at Chelsea).
In this case, with EtH severely underperforming, I would find it absolutely bonkers if the new executive structure decide to retain EtH after witnessing what they have over the past few months.
As bad as our performances have gotten, I would dearly love to see ETH win the FA Cup. Huge ask against the 115, but he has been served such a poor hand this season, it would be a minor miracle and welcome relief to land some silverware. Whether or not that will save him, well, I doubt it, but somehow I don't detest the manager as much as others do. He's gotten plenty wrong, but I like that he's tried (albeit failed) to instill a sense of discipline at our treacherous club.
Do people really detest him though?
Theres some personal criticism/abuse but not much. Previous managers have had it much worse on that front.
First I want to make it clear that what is going to follow isn't meant condescendingly. What you just wrote is true if we are talking about a video game like Football Manager or if the manager was appointed last week because in that case the manager has limited tools to impact yesterday's game and has little knowledge of the strengths and weaknesses of his players. Or how players interact with each others on the field from a tactical and technical standpoint. But ETH has been coaching all of these players for nearly a year at the minimum and nearly two years or far more for most.
So unless we are making the point that our players are genuinely bottom half of the Championship level. The manager has had nearly two seasons to know nearly all the players and build something that is supposed to be comfortable against Coventry and dominate them without breaking a sweat with our benchwarmers and kids. But in spite of a good score line of 3-0, we were uninspired during our good periods and dreadful during our bad ones.
We need to be serious here, the likes of McTominay AWB, Eriksen, Maguire or Casemiro are not good enough to compete against elite teams based on talent and form but they are significantly better than anything Coventry has to offer which is why in spite of our ridiculous tactical setups, injuries and some bad form United is still somehow in the top third of the Premier League which is the equivalent of a full league above Coventry.
Amrabat wasn't a desperate loan, the plan was to sell McTom and buy him. Now fortuitously for him McTom has bailed him out multiple times this season with his goals, while Amrabat has been warming the bench.
Mount has been unavailable but he has had the rest of the midfield including "My captain always plays", why is he not able to play any kind of decent football with those guys? Or was Mount supposed to be the most important cog in the wheel?
Malacia is utter pants.
Martinez is the only important player who we can agree has missed the whole season. However, if everything about our football is based on just one guy, who actually was a part of our biggest defeats last season, then ETH is living in a fool's paradise.
If you go further, to the premise of since Sir Alex, techincally it's only Evans and he had a small 9 year break in the middle, so can't blame him either. Rashford and Mctominay were in the u18's so they are a symptom not a cause.
I think personally it's a overall vibe thing, we requires a certain type of individuals to setup and inspire, it's more that we've lost those than gain some snake in the grass bad actors. When they aren't feeling it and the heads go down these guys quit, the 7-0 is a prime example. You need someone to grab the game by the balls and say no not happening today, even if it's to shut the game down and lose 3-0 instead. I'm not sure who that is in our current squad, I'm not sure we have one.
Players might be an issue, but our failures at the minute are also tactical, I'm sorry but conceding >20 shots every other game, that's not happening by accident. If you gave a footballing dinosaur like big Sam this team, the football would be terrible but we'd be compact. Ten Hagg is rolling the same dice again and again, we all know Scott McTominay doesn't work as a DM, keeps trying it.
Basically what we need is a club without players.
What these guys want to watch is a manager turning up every week to Old Trafford, having a walk around, taking a shit in the middle of the center circle and then they can go there merry ways.
Let's not bother with this whole football thing as it's beyond most of our fanbase anyway.
I think he's gone and so dies he.. look at the changes in the backroom staff, surely there's a new manager as well.
I think the players know ETH knows he's gone, some have stopped playing for him imo..
I've changed my vote I did think he would get another season I don't think so now.
I think the players know ETH knows he's gone, some have stopped playing for him imo..
I've changed my vote I did think he would get another season I don't think so now.
For me he is finished, after yesterday's fiasco.
Yeah but we are the only team who's had injuries, yeah?
I genuinely think most of them are taking the piss. I keep asking people who post similar the same question and not many answer, even less with anything that makes sense.
Here's the thing people may have overlooked, even if we'd have had a relatively successful season. ie qualified for the CL, had a decent run in the CL and maybe a cup run like we've had. There's every chance that Ratcliff, Ineos and the new sporting structure would have still wanted to change manager anyway. Ten Hag isn't their man, they didn't hire him and new owners quite often want to bring their own manager in.
I honestly don't know. Would Eriksen boss the championship? I doubt it, he can barely move. Would AWB look good? He can't pass, dribble or understand defending in a line. Maguire would be fine, and was fine. I'm not sure how Case would do as a CB, particularly against fast, aggressive strikers. I acutally think McTominay is just about high-Championship level as a defensive midfielder.
I do agree that whatever ETH is trying to do isn't working with these players. And he'll rightfully lose his job because of that. But I also think a LOT of these players are demonstrably the problem. As I've posted previously, ETH has rid the squads of over 23 players that have played in the first team. In just two seasons. He has had plenty of money spent, but whether himself or the recruitment team, they haven't actually bought enough bodies to fill the squad out. And, we're STILL reliant on Ole ball because we're still fielding a majority of Ole's players.
I'll flip it over, given this exact squad, do you think a better coach could get a tune out of AWB? Get Eriksen to run? Speed up Maguire and Casemiro as a back 2? I have to hope a better man-manager could get Rashford to resemble a footballer, I'll give you that.
Yesterday highlighted how far away we are. I wouldn't be surprised if we finish 10th or lower next season if changes aren't in place quicker than it seems they will be.
He made the changes and he takes the consequences.
Mainoo was breaking up play in midfield. Eriksen doesn't do that and doesn't have the legs, so the midfield became wide open and that allowed Coventry to open up. The game reverted to what we've seen in recent weeks - unable to lay a glove on opposition midfielders who have acres of space and just drive on at the back 4.
Anthony coming on wasn't the issue for me - it was leaving Rashford on over Garnacho who works a lot harder without the ball.
Tactical shift from the opposition or not, the game changed following his substitutions and he didn't react or do anything about it. They made changes that impacted the game positively for them. Ten Hag didn't do that so he wears it.
There's only a handful of players in this squad I'd personally keep on, but the manager needs to do better.
I feel like if you're 3 - 0 up against Coventry you should be able to hold that lead even without any managerial instructions, so yesterday is not all on Ten Hag.
However it feels like he's coached this type of chaos into them and ultimately he's responsible. He has to go. I think they'll keep him until the end of the season but they should get rid regardless of outcome in the final imo. The underlying concerns about this team don't change just because we might win that game, and keeping him on just because of that would severely dent my belief in the new ownership.
However it feels like he's coached this type of chaos into them and ultimately he's responsible. He has to go. I think they'll keep him until the end of the season but they should get rid regardless of outcome in the final imo. The underlying concerns about this team don't change just because we might win that game, and keeping him on just because of that would severely dent my belief in the new ownership.
I’d love to be able to see actual private data about fitness and injuries to see what the clubs objective reasoning is for it. I don’t believe it’s anything ETH is doing. Lots of clubs are suffering with injury issues, but ours has been worse probably because of the punishing schedule last season along with the WC.
I see this season in the same way a team , that’s won a league , can fall apart even with the same manager. I feel like it’s happened for us under Jose and Ole. You can’t coach good one season and then be sh*t another season.
He takes over and Ronaldo immediately starts causing sh*t. Then the club is up for sale barely half a year into his contract and his very future is in doubt (new owners usually want their own man). But the club is in limbo for 12 months so nobody really knows what’s happening.
Greenwood and Anthony high profile dramas. Rashford , our best attacking player last year is having some sort of meltdown. Casemiro looks finished , not even arsed trying to score a penalty against Coventry. Relentless injuries. All this in probably the most high profile job where you are only ever 2 games away from hysterical over reactions. Have I missed anything ?
Trying to implement any sort of discipline , culture and even belief in that environment (with so much up in the air) would be difficult for anybody. If I was to try and look at this in a broad context I think that pretty much everything has gone against ETH but it feels like he’s got too much baggage now to continue. I still feel he’s been just managing a sh*tshow of a club at it’s absolute worst , but he’s gonna pay the price for being here at the worst time possible.
If I flip it over, I have Coventry. A team that is made of worse players than United in every single positions but reached the FA Cup semi finals and lost on penalties. The point I'm trying to make is that unless you think that Coventry has comparable or better players than United and also that Coventry over the course of a season would be in the top half of the PL with ETH, then it's very difficult to even start to suggest that the manager had no way to organize his team in a way to not look useless against Coventry or the vast majority of teams we play against.
Do you think that if you give ETH all Coventry players he gets a draw against this United?
I think we’d struggle in the championship with the squad playing like this
Honestly I feel for the guy. The club is so messed up that I don't think any manager (other than perhaps Pep and Klopp) could have succeeded. I still think the guy is a good coach, but it needs more than a good coach to succeed with this group. The culture at the club is awful, recruitment is shite and the mentality of this group is brittle. He failed, but he failed at an impossible job. The only question is how quickly it went wrong.
However, it feels like the bubble's popped now, I just don't see a way back for him. Once your authority is eroded, getting it back is near impossible. Remember when we got outrun by Brentford and he had all the squad run 13k, and went with them? Back then I think he gained the grudging respect of the squad for that. Now that trick wouldn't work, it would just be another round of anonymous briefing. You have a limited amount of credit, and I think it's all gone.
The new senior management team has to reset the club culture, and unfortunately for ETH that's easier to do when you have a new manager. FA Cup final is at the end of May. I doubt he'll still be in post by 1st June.
However, it feels like the bubble's popped now, I just don't see a way back for him. Once your authority is eroded, getting it back is near impossible. Remember when we got outrun by Brentford and he had all the squad run 13k, and went with them? Back then I think he gained the grudging respect of the squad for that. Now that trick wouldn't work, it would just be another round of anonymous briefing. You have a limited amount of credit, and I think it's all gone.
The new senior management team has to reset the club culture, and unfortunately for ETH that's easier to do when you have a new manager. FA Cup final is at the end of May. I doubt he'll still be in post by 1st June.
If we’re relying on the manager having to give specific tactical instructions to the players to defend a 3 goal lead against championship opposition, it tells you exactly what the problems are with this team. It’s not like Coventry had some kind of genius tactical shift that required specific intervention. They attacked and took more risks. You’d trust a top team to be able to figure that out, I can’t see Pep telling his players they need to sit deeper and keep hold of the ball against a championship team at 3-0. They know what to do.
I think if you gave ETH a consistent, fit, young and energetic XI then he'd produce vastly better football than he currently is. I don't know enough about Coventry to comment, but going back many years, the United midfield has been overrun by much lower 'standard' teams because they actually have 3 midfielders that play the right positions, are the right age and run a lot. Honestly that's been happening for the better part of 2 decades now.
You think? This squad for a fact will be competing for playoffs in the championship
I don't think these idiotic incompetent players will be moved on so I am hoping that he gets us a trophy before getting the sack.
This season is the worst we've been since the early eighties.
Us being 7th in the league is because of pure luck and a good shotstopper.
16th in the league for expected points. Only Wolves, Sheffield United, Burnley and Luton worse.
16th in the league for expected goald conceded. Only West Ham, Sheffield United, Burnley and Luton worse.
13th in the league for expecte goals scored. Only West Ham, Wolves, Forrest, Palace, Sheffield United, Burnley and Luton worse.
We've had maybe two or three good performances this season. We are looking more clueless every time we enter the pitch.
There is no winning culture, there is no collective identity, there is no visible plan, we're getting physically bullied, man management on and off the pitch is nonexistent and our players are getting worse in every aspect of the game for every week this guy is at the wheel.
Has to go! At the end of the season at the latest.
Us being 7th in the league is because of pure luck and a good shotstopper.
16th in the league for expected points. Only Wolves, Sheffield United, Burnley and Luton worse.
16th in the league for expected goald conceded. Only West Ham, Sheffield United, Burnley and Luton worse.
13th in the league for expecte goals scored. Only West Ham, Wolves, Forrest, Palace, Sheffield United, Burnley and Luton worse.
We've had maybe two or three good performances this season. We are looking more clueless every time we enter the pitch.
There is no winning culture, there is no collective identity, there is no visible plan, we're getting physically bullied, man management on and off the pitch is nonexistent and our players are getting worse in every aspect of the game for every week this guy is at the wheel.
Has to go! At the end of the season at the latest.
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