Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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Irwin99 said:
It's mental that people can't see that it's both. We've had some catastrophic collapses over the years with different managers, and yet it's always entirely the managers fault when that's only part of the problem

I remember we crashed out of champions league football with a group stage defeat to Leipzig in Ole's second season and IIRC AwB had a nightmare defensively in that game too. Just silly mistakes over and over and poor recruitment.
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A selection of our worst:

Everton 4-0 United (April 2019)
De Gea
Lindelof
Smalling
Jones (Young)
Dalot
Matic
Fred (McTominay)
Pogba
Rashford
Lukaku
Martial
United 1-6 Spurs (October 2020)
De Gea
Wan-Bissaka
Bailly
Maguire
Shaw
Matic (McTominay)
Pogba
Greenwood (van de Beek)
Bruno (Fred)
Rashford
Martial
United 0-5 Liverpool (October 2021)
De Gea
Wan-Bissaka
Lindelof
Maguire
Shaw
McTominay
Fred
Greenwood (Pogba)
Bruno (Dalot)
Rashford (Cavani)
Ronaldo
Watford 4-1 United (November 2021)
De Gea
Wan-Bissaka
Lindelof
Maguire
Shaw (Dalot)
Matic
McTominay (van de Beek)
Sancho (Lingard)
Bruno
Rashford (Martial)
Ronaldo
Brighton 4-0 United (May 2022)
De Gea
Dalot
Lindelof
Varane
Telles
McTominay
Matic (Fred)
Mata (Maguire)
Bruno
Elanga (Cavani)
Ronaldo
Brentford 4-0 United (August 2022)
De Gea
Dalot
Maguire
Martinez (Varane)
Shaw (Malacia)
Fred (McTominay)
Eriksen (van de Beek)
Sancho (Elanga)
Bruno
Rashford
Ronaldo
Liverpool 7-0 United (March 2023)
De Gea
Dalot
Varane
Martinez (Malacia)
Shaw
Casemiro (Sabitzer)
Fred (McTominay)
Antony
Bruno
Rashford (Elanga)
Weghorst (Garnacho)

Quite a crazy amount of carry over tbh.
 
VP89 said:
Doubtful in my opinion, Zidane is reportedly not keen on the PL and Alonso has strong ties to Liverpool. I'm sure Ashworth can attract quality coaches, just not those two.
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At the end of the day money talks, and with Amorim widely tipped for Pool, the others may be looking for a new job. Also worth keeping an eye on Emery, who will be a hot commodity after getting Villa to punch well above their collective weight.
 
Weird comments in the post match presser… we must “defend our position in the league”.

Is he saying we need to hold on to 7th or try to jump up the table to 4th???
 
Malone_Post said:
So Eriks now reached Jose levels of shitting on the clubs history in order to big himself up? Fantastic. The only thing he had left going for himself was that he was at the very least, a likeable guy.
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He's never been likeable if you listen to the shit he comes out with. He's straight up tried gaslighting everyone through pure arrogance all season. Not to mention blaming the players week after week when he committed tactical suicide. These aren't likeable qualities in a football manager or any leader.
 
DSG said:
Weird comments in the post match presser… we must “defend our position in the league”.

Is he saying we need to hold on to 7th or try to jump up the table to 4th???
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He probably just means he doesn't want us to slide into the bottom half as that would look bad on him.
 
stevoc said:
No it's tedious because you are trying deflect and undermine people's point by constantly making accusations.

Because I said in brackets, that it could have been handled better by both? A bit of a stretch mate.
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That was your opinion projected onto a fact that you then later referred to as an objective happening. No deflection, just a rejection of you trying to pass off an opinion as a fact. Ten Hag handled that as well as he could, Sancho was out of order.

stevoc said:
So the same situation most teams find themselves in when they hire a new manager.
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Not really, no. Nowadays clubs have a system in mind when bringing managers in. Hopefully going forward we'll have the same.

stevoc said:
Of course it can be, managers do it all the time.

We wouldn't be delaying anything though as we aren't currently on the path to learning anything, never mind mastering anything, we've been at whatever it is we're doing this season for 9 months and we don't seem to be even grasping the basics of it. What we're doing this season isn't (I hope) what Ten Hag wants to actually play like and I very much doubt the next manager will be continuing with it. So it's been a waste of time and a season.
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You've moved the goalposts here. Ten Hag is obviously persisting with it because he doesn't expect there to be a new manager and therefore we need to keep trying if we're to master it. You can't honestly expect a manager to stop trying to do what they were hired to do just because you think they'll be sacked at the end of the season. It's a nonsense argument.

If you think the system isn't going to work for us, or if you think Ten Hag isn't capable of getting the team playing his way, then fair enough. Criticising him for trying and persisting, the reason he was hired, is ridiculous.
 
Wonder if he'll survive after we lose to Sheffield.
 
Raoul said:
The Moyes season was arguably worse. Yes, he did make the CL quarters with Fergie's players, but that was obliterated by our turgid league play and 7th place finish.
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Or at least it felt worse, because that team was the Champions.

Now we are losing 7-0 to Liverpool and it is just another day.
 
pocco said:
Come on now...

This is the equivalent of the kid picking up his football and taking it home because he's losing. Just because ETH hasn't established anything in 2 years, let's not pretend others can't when there's many examples of good managers doing just that. Even just this season in the PL alone.
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I've been saying this consistently, even before Ten Hag was hired. Our team is built for a mid block, adopting anything else will be difficult and will result in a few drubbings at minimum. I get that you want to gloat, but no examples you can give are as tough a job as the United one.
 
Raoul said:
At the end of the day money talks, and with Amorim widely tipped for Pool, the others may be looking for a new job. Also worth keeping an eye on Emery, who will be a hot commodity after getting Villa to punch well above their collective weight.
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Not denying money is a big deal, but these guys can probably click their fingers and get big deals regardless.

Emery I like because he's fun to watch with Villa. It's weird because I associated his previous sides as pragmatic.

The death by possession styles of Arsenal, City and Barcelona are a bit boring.
 
pocco said:
Notice the big swing in voting. Are these new voters or are the same indecisive lot back again from the original poll? I laughed this morning when there was a 1% shift towards keeping him... posters must wake up in the morning and decide they actually think he's the man for the job again.
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Bizarrely, i think it will climb again tomorrow :lol:
 
If hes here in august then Ineos is a total false dawn.

For me easily worst manager post SAF and probably the most arrogant and unlikeable.

The guys a straight up loser
 
Sandikan said:
Moyes took a squad that had cruised the league title to 7th. Below his old team.

This forum should auto complete that on every single post that has people trying to cut Moyes slack.
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You’ve quoted the whole post, even the bit where I’ve said you’d have needed a very special manager to maintain Fergie’s standard with a squad that was organically on its last legs and needed renewal. Moyes was not the guy for such a task; that position drop is never caveated yet most know what the situation regarding that was.
 
Malone_Post said:
So Eriks now reached Jose levels of shitting on the clubs history in order to big himself up? Fantastic. The only thing he had left going for himself was that he was at the very least, a likeable guy.
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Don't know where the reputation for being likable has come from. He comes across as a stubborn, egocentric personality vacuum
 
The Hilton said:
That was your opinion projected onto a fact that you then later referred to as an objective happening. No deflection, just a rejection of you trying to pass off an opinion as a fact. Ten Hag handled that as well as he could, Sancho was out of order.
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You're deflecting again.

The Hilton said:
Not really, no. Nowadays clubs have a system in mind when bringing managers in. Hopefully going forward we'll have the same.
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And it should be noted, the majority of this squad has been assembled by Ten Hag supposedly to play modern pregressive football. Only around ten players from Ole's time remain. So a new manager shouldn't have too much trouble as presumably Inoes will want the new man to implement a pregressive style.

The Hilton said:
You've moved the goalposts here. Ten Hag is obviously persisting with it because he doesn't expect there to be a new manager and therefore we need to keep trying if we're to master it. You can't honestly expect a manager to stop trying to do what they were hired to do just because you think they'll be sacked at the end of the season. It's a nonsense argument.

If you think the system isn't going to work for us, or if you think Ten Hag isn't capable of getting the team playing his way, then fair enough. Criticising him for trying and persisting, the reason he was hired, is ridiculous.
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He can't be naive enough to think he is safe from being sacked, I refuse to believe that. Let's be serious here mate, it's a results business and he will know his head has been on the chopping block since the new owners came in with how porr we've been this season. And you now seem to be suggesting that this is how Ten Hag wants to play. Well yeah I'd probably agree and it's probably going to get him sacked.

Persisting with something that clearly isn't working, over and over again but expecting different results is the definition of insanity.
 
pocco said:
He's never been likeable if you listen to the shit he comes out with. He's straight up tried gaslighting everyone through pure arrogance all season. Not to mention blaming the players week after week when he committed tactical suicide. These aren't likeable qualities in a football manager or any leader.
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I think that's the disconnect with the people who want him in. His inability to communicate effectively, making him seem stoic has masked the fact that he's just as arrogant and selfish as LVG and Jose. All season, he's either blamed players or injuries. He's taken no accountability. But I think for me, the biggest indicator is the constant use of the term " impossible job". That story he told about people telling him not to take the job always rubbed me the wrong way. How can you come to arguably the biggest club in the world, as a manager coming for the Eredivisie, having never won a league title or Champions League in a major division and say something like that. It's one thing if Mourinho or LVG did that, but Ten Haag? Like he was doing us a favor.
 
I can’t do another season of this. We’re too far gone for him to turn it around now.
 
pocco said:
Notice the big swing in voting. Are these new voters or are the same indecisive lot back again from the original poll? I laughed this morning when there was a 1% shift towards keeping him... posters must wake up in the morning and decide they actually think he's the man for the job again.
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He's actually picked up 20 votes since the end of normal time. Strange folk.
 
Sandikan said:
It's like that Groundhog day film.

Every season we hope for a big exodus and a lot of quality coming in.

Every season next to no-one leaves, certainly not for any sort of fee and 2-3 players come in, often looking reasonable for a short while before dropping off a cliff. Mount didn't even get to show reasonable.

Again all the players can play the "we need a new manager / system" card. Which buys them a bit more time.
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Spot on. Same cycle. Rinse repeat.

We, as a fan base, have long been too lenient on both the players and the manager(s). Watch them all miraculously hit a “purple patch” or pretend to care when there’s a new manager….for 6 months or so….and then it all goes to pot again.

And unless there’s good incoming revenue from sales, I doubt we’re able to spend our way out of this. Probably looking at another minimum 3 year rebuild now again.
 
Ubik said:
A selection of our worst:

Everton 4-0 United (April 2019)
De Gea
Lindelof
Smalling
Jones (Young)
Dalot
Matic
Fred (McTominay)
Pogba
Rashford
Lukaku
Martial
United 1-6 Spurs (October 2020)
De Gea
Wan-Bissaka
Bailly
Maguire
Shaw
Matic (McTominay)
Pogba
Greenwood (van de Beek)
Bruno (Fred)
Rashford
Martial
United 0-5 Liverpool (October 2021)
De Gea
Wan-Bissaka
Lindelof
Maguire
Shaw
McTominay
Fred
Greenwood (Pogba)
Bruno (Dalot)
Rashford (Cavani)
Ronaldo
Watford 4-1 United (November 2021)
De Gea
Wan-Bissaka
Lindelof
Maguire
Shaw (Dalot)
Matic
McTominay (van de Beek)
Sancho (Lingard)
Bruno
Rashford (Martial)
Ronaldo
Brighton 4-0 United (May 2022)
De Gea
Dalot
Lindelof
Varane
Telles
McTominay
Matic (Fred)
Mata (Maguire)
Bruno
Elanga (Cavani)
Ronaldo
Brentford 4-0 United (August 2022)
De Gea
Dalot
Maguire
Martinez (Varane)
Shaw (Malacia)
Fred (McTominay)
Eriksen (van de Beek)
Sancho (Elanga)
Bruno
Rashford
Ronaldo
Liverpool 7-0 United (March 2023)
De Gea
Dalot
Varane
Martinez (Malacia)
Shaw
Casemiro (Sabitzer)
Fred (McTominay)
Antony
Bruno
Rashford (Elanga)
Weghorst (Garnacho)

Quite a crazy amount of carry over tbh.
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Exactly. Just the six starters who have been at the club since Ole's first season or before starting today's game.

People will bring out the whole 'you're just saying that they're downing tools or toxic' and that's not the case, (well maybe one or two). It's QUALITY as well as other issues like EtH's management which is very questionable. You are not getting Pep or Klopp winning league titles with these players. It's not happening. If you think AwB or McTominay make a Pep team, or Klopp would put up with Rashford then I don't know what to say.

That doesn't mean they're toxic it's just not good enough. Maguire was great today, he led as an example and did really well but did you see him and Casemiro try and get back to defend some of those counters? If that was Salah or Mbappe on the break, we're dead. Team needs changing, as well as the manager.
 
Irwin99 said:
Exactly. Just the six starters who have been at the club since Ole's first season or before starting today's game.

People will bring out the whole 'you're just saying that they're downing tools or toxic' and that's not the case, (well maybe one or two). It's QUALITY as well as other issues like EtH's management which is very questionable. You are not getting Pep or Klopp winning league titles with these players. It's not happening. If you think AwB or McTominay make a Pep team, or Klopp would put up with Rashford then I don't know what to say.

That doesn't mean they're toxic it's just not good enough. Maguire was great today, he led as an example and did really well but did you see him and Casemiro try and get back to defend some of those counters? If that was Salah or Mbappe on the break, we're dead. Team needs changing, as well as the manager.
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Well put
 
Two out of the three goals scored by players ten Hag wanted to sell in the summer, one of which was arguably man of the match.

But remember it's a process.....
 
stevoc said:
You're deflecting again.
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:lol: :lol:

You clearly don't know what that means. I've addressed your point directly, I just called out your lack of good faith discussion while doing so.

stevoc said:
And it should be noted, the majority of this squad has been assembled by Ten Hag supposedly to play modern pregressive football. Only around ten players from Ole's time remain. So a new manager shouldn't have too much trouble as presumably Inoes will want the new man to implement a pregressive style.
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This simply isn't true. This squad is a mishmash of Ole/Mou legacy, Murtough signings, a few first choice Ten Hag signings, and freebies and desperation loans. You stopped debating in good faith a while ago, but this is way beyond that.

stevoc said:
He can't be naive enough to think he is safe from being sacked, I refuse to believe that. Let's be serious here mate, it's a results business and he will know his head has been on the chopping block since the new owners came in with how porr we've been this season. And you now seem to be suggesting that this is how Ten Hag wants to play. Well yeah I'd probably agree and it's probably going to get him sacked.

Persisting with something that clearly isn't working, over and over again but expecting different results is the definition of insanity.
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The bit in bold is a strawman. I've stated directly that this isn't how Ten Hag wants to play, it's a dodgy hybrid because we can't play how he wants yet. If you want to argue with things you've made up, you can do that without replying to me.

Whether he thinks he's getting sacked or not is irrelevant. He was brought in to try to establish a new way of playing, to give up on that would be worse than trying and failing. The former is just as much of a sackable offence as the latter.
 
Irwin99 said:
Exactly. Just the six starters who have been at the club since Ole's first season or before starting today's game.

People will bring out the whole 'you're just saying that they're downing tools or toxic' and that's not the case, (well maybe one or two). It's QUALITY as well as other issues like EtH's management which is very questionable. You are not getting Pep or Klopp winning league titles with these players. It's not happening. If you think AwB or McTominay make a Pep team, or Klopp would put up with Rashford then I don't know what to say.

That doesn't mean they're toxic it's just not good enough. Maguire was great today, he led as an example and did really well but did you see him and Casemiro try and get back to defend some of those counters? If that was Salah or Mbappe on the break, we're dead. Team needs changing, as well as the manager.
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Lucky for us, ETH has helped ensure that we won't be facing Mbappe any time soon.
 
Ish said:
Spot on. Same cycle. Rinse repeat.

We, as a fan base, have long been too lenient on both the players and the manager(s). Watch them all miraculously hit a “purple patch” or pretend to care when there’s a new manager….for 6 months or so….and then it all goes to pot again.

And unless there’s good incoming revenue from sales, I doubt we’re able to spend our way out of this. Probably looking at another minimum 3 year rebuild now again.
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It's a shame with Ten Hag as for a couple of months last year it looked like we'd really got it.

Quickly became apparent that it was based on very rare Rashford form, Casemiro having a sensational impact and Martinez and Bruno playing superbly too.

Casemiro seems to have dropped off in a way even the most negative fan couldn't have foreseen, Martinez now has serious doubts he can carry out his aggressive style without missing massive swathes of the season and Rashy has gone back to his bad old days

Meanwhile we have ludicrously put all our eggs in a young kid up front who we don't really know if he enough or not.

Add in a sky high priced Antony who can't get in over Garnacho and Shaw who misses half the season.
Plus Maguire and McTom probably being our best performers when we tried to ship them and it's a real crock of pony.
 
JPRouve said:
I see his point but it could be perceived as an embarrassing achievement. A bit like escaping a burning building with a foot long dildo hanging from your backside.
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If he wins the final it would be an embarrassing FA cup medal
 
Fair argument to be made that this season he has been the worse manager in the league. Everything he does is bad. He doesn’t seem to learn from mistakes. The appalling in game management. Making the same subs (or lack of subs) that has seen us throw away numerous leads.
You can rightfully point fault at the players too today of course but when he repeatedly doesn’t do the right things himself, the players are simply set up to fail. Him leaving will solve very little but him staying is a seriously scary prospect.
 
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