Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[BenitoSTARR]

He is once again deflecting criticisms and making excuses. Some people will rightfully have an issue with it.

See I have zero issue with this as an articulated interpretation of his comment.

Can you see the difference between yours and Fortuna’s though and why yours is one that absolutely adds to the discussion while the other adds nothing of value?

Just one last hint: Maybe the person used to like, or would like to keep liking, the person they are talking about but are now very, very disappointed with them. Is that an acceptable state of mind to you?
Now stop playing dumb.

So why don’t you just express that?

This isn’t X and I don’t see why poorly written posts that add no value shouldn’t be poked at so the actual views of the poster are clearly understood.

Im also still waiting for a quote of a post of mine that is “ridiculous” id genuinely like to know which you are referring to that made you feel entitled to use that language to describe my posts. I am assuming you meant my posts and not the poster so I’d like you to say which ones are ridiculous.

 

[DJ_21]

Good luck with that considering pretty much no team ever has full squad healthy.

No but some teams like city rarely get any injuries. And they can run for 120 mins without looking tired. Our players are knackered and injured before running for 90… everyone’s blaming ETH training for it but I doubt Pep does light work training.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

To



That's the post of a frustrated and fed up fan who's lost hope in the manager.

If he can articulate before it’s possible to do so now.

The quoted posts are both quality, clear and well formatted.

Disliking a manager shouldn’t lower your standards.

For what it’s worth I’m bitterly disappointed by this season.

 

[croadyman]

No style and no good results. So I have voted no. I hope we don't have to pay him compensation to leave. But I am ok for him to stay until we have the proper personnel in place to hire the right manager, without rushing it. I might change my mind if he recants and says he will coach United to play like his successful Ajax teams.

I presume the compensation doesn't apply when he fails to qualify for Champions League but probably wrong as still got year on contract

 

[stevoc]

The phrase "if we're being honest" and then going on to state your opinion is obviously not a good faith discussion. It's only slightly better than the usual "anyone who disagrees doesn't understand football" rubbish you see thrown around the forum. We can have a genuinely good faith discussion here, but that involves not framing your opinion, no matter how strongly you believe it, as the only possible opinion. By all means disagree, I can see where you're coming from, but statements like that are about shutting down discussion and, ironically, belong on Facebook or Twitter comments that you deride rather than as part of a genuine debate.

Again you're reading a lot into a turn of phrase. And to be fair I don't think stating that we've had disciplinary problems more than a year into Ten Hags reign with Sancho and Rashford is just my opinion is it?

Which part was opinion?

I'd say we're about a season closer to adopting a Ten Hag's system, the gap between midfield and defence is obviously not what it'll look like when we have the players to make it work, but we'll never adopt another system if we don't persevere with it ,just like last season we couldn't pass out from the back given the personnel we had, yet that's improved a lot. It's not like we can stay in our mid-block comfort zone until we've got the players we want and then just switch to camping in the opposition half without issue, we have to start trying to transition at some point, and I'd much rather we continue to do so, with Ten Hag or anyone else that comes in, rather than revert back to the usual mid block when things inevitably get tough.

But don't those two things contradict each other?

We are either adopting Ten Hags system which clearly isn't working or we are currently not actually playing the way he wants us to because we don't have the players for it.

So what are we doing then? If it's the former an entire season of playing this way hasn't improved performances or results, its went the opposite so how will another season of playing this way improve things?

If it's the latter then what is the benefit going forward of playing this mish mash of styles/systems if we'll be playing differently with different players next season anyway?

just like last season we couldn't pass out from the back given the personnel we had, yet that's improved a lot

I thought we were alright in that regard last season with Varane, Martinez and Shaw.

 

[leontas]

And what concerns me is that most of these injuries are muscle injuries that seem to happen between our games. Which suggests to me that something is off with our training and recovery regime. So ETH is at least partially responsible for these injuries. He needs to start looking inward to solve this problem asap.

 

[croadyman]

Exactamento. A lot of his troubles are his very own doing.

Injuries? He overplayed players in the most intense season in football history and refused to use his squad game in, game out.

No impact on squad/transfers? He has a veto over transfers and got his guys in Antony, Mount and Hojlund for over 200m and neither have covered themselves in glory. He also made Fernandes captain and approved Rashford's new contract on stupid money.

Too much change at the club? Not more than at Chelsea when Tuchel was finishing top 4.

Literally, every excuse for him is overblown and mostly not even valid. Defending him is just pure lunacy after watching us play AND the results we get.

Yep I can remember some of us saying last season if he doesn't rotate more these players will burn out and look what has happened this season

 

[3KDré]

Although it's not particularly emotional, he is markedly acting more emotional recently. I feel like the pressure has got to him.

 

[soapythecat]

He better not resign before tomorrows game - I’ve got money on a Coventry win. Don’t need a competent manager coming in last minute to spoil my flutter.

 

[Laurencio]

No but some teams like city rarely get any injuries. And they can run for 120 mins without looking tired. Our players are knackered and injured before running for 90… everyone’s blaming ETH training for it but I doubt Pep does light work training.

https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...ll-news/man-city-make-drastic-change-28985401

https://bitterandblue.sbnation.com/...tions-from-a-manchester-city-training-session

So usually 70 minute training, now down to 10.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Although it's not particularly emotional, he is markedly acting more emotional recently. I feel like the pressure has got to him.

I’d definitely agree his press conferences have been more defensive and emotional recently.

 

[croadyman]

Nonexistent standards is exactly how I see it if people are happy enough to let him stay next season after this shitshow of a season and the disappointing finish to last season.

We're a monster of a club/business and it's time we started culling underperforming staff members/players as soon as it's clear they're not up to the job. I see a lot of posters saying, "well what other manager's available?" It's not the bloody point, if we want a player we can break the bank for them so let's do the same for our most important position and get the best in class, and I'm hopeful INEOS will do just that.

So who for you would be the best in class available in terms of managers. Obviously exclude Klopp because hell freezes over before he ever goes from scousers to Utd

 

[FortunaUtd]

If he can articulate before it’s possible to do so now.

The quoted posts are both quality, clear and well formatted.

Disliking a manager shouldn’t lower your standards.

For what it’s worth I’m bitterly disappointed by this season.

Now there is an irony.
Because, more relevantly, liking a manager shouldn't lower your standards either..

As for the formatting (oh no, the formatting!), it is not actually my fault the site's autocorrect writes feck with a lower case even at the beginning of the sentence.

 

[FortunaUtd]

To



That's the post of a frustrated and fed up fan who's lost hope in the manager.

Thank you for the diligence and kindness to lay it out when I could not anymore.

What a difference a season makes, eh?

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Now there is an irony.
Because, more relevantly, liking a manager shouldn't lower your standards either..

I posted that with the irony intended given that anyone not baying for blood is accused of lowering standards.

So what was the nail in the coffin for Ten Hag to change you opinion so much?

 

[croadyman]

I think he’ll be given another season. Don’t necessarily think he deserves that but that’s the way I think its going. If there was an outstanding candidate in the mould of a Klopp or Pep who we could realistically go out and get then he’d be brown bread here.

Needs to be a massive summer of clever business though. He’s shite but so are a lot of these players that he and the club have assembled. Too many hangers on that have shown us they’re not up to it too.

Yeah I fear he gets another season because like you say the club will use excuse of no outstanding candidate. Completely agree there needs to be some shrewd business and starting to clear out the ones not good enough.

 

[Rightnr]

Yep I can remember some of us saying last season if he doesn't rotate more these players will burn out and look what has happened this season

But how could our never-at-fault manager possibly know he should rotate? The answer is the same as the other questions, by not being clueless.

Just compare this dumb statement of X player is missing, so I cannot play my style to Ancelotti's mantra that missing one or a few players doesn't matter and they'll still aim for the win. This after having so many ACLs already this season.

Put simply, EtH needs to go back to the Eredivisie because he's shown he's not up to it.

 

[stevoc]

But how could our never-at-fault manager possibly know he should rotate? The answer is the same as the other questions, by not being clueless.

Just compare this dumb statement of X player is missing, so I cannot play my style to Ancelotti's mantra that missing one or a few players doesn't matter and they'll still aim for the win. This after having so many ACLs already this season.

Put simply, EtH needs to go back to the Eredivisie because he's shown he's not up to it.

The answer will be he needs a proper structure above him to tell him that. Just as he apparently needs someone to inform him his tactics don't work and to tell him how to play.

 

[Rightnr]

The answer will be he needs a proper structure above him to tell him that. Just as he apparently needs someone to inform him his tactics don't work and to tell him how to play.

He needs a structure alright. After he gets demoted to grass cutter and we get someone who knows what he's doing as his boss.

 

[Irwin99]

Did LVG offer to quit? I had no idea about that. I remember being furious that we missed out on Klopp because we were set on giving LVG a second season though.

Yeah he offered to resign after the defeat to Southampton in mid-season and was talked out of it by the club. He was understandably angered by the sacking a few hours after the FA cup win which did seem a bit low. I always respected LvG a lot more than most of our other post Sir Alex managers and he did seem like a good man (a bit of a madman but a proper old-school football guy who achieved so much in the game).

 

[Rightnr]

Yeah he offered to resign after the defeat to Southampton in mid-season and was talked out of it by the club. He was understandably angered by the sacking a few hours after the FA cup win which did seem a bit low. I always respected LvG a lot more than most of our other post Sir Alex managers and he did seem like a good man (a bit of a madman but a proper old-school football guy who achieved so much in the game).

Juanfield was a crazy day. We played some boring shite most of the time but when we played well, it was marvelous.

I am still scarred from that WH away game where we ended up losing and a draw would have been enough to see Pep manage City in the Europa league in his first season. Urgh.

 

[FortunaUtd]

So what was the nail in the coffin for Ten Hag to change you opinion so much?

Looking back over my posts, a progression over the season.
I believe the major two points were first the hapless league cup loss against Newcastle's second string with a strong team and then soon after another hapless loss against Newcastle beginning of December. That is when I made this post https://www.redcafe.net/threads/eri...united-manager.470032/page-1560#post-31394774

After the West Ham loss at Christmas, this post https://www.redcafe.net/threads/eri...united-manager.470032/page-1724#post-31475039

But I have to say the worry crept in with the "transition team" quote early in the season, and that quote in combination with what went on in the season, was indeed it for me: https://www.redcafe.net/threads/eri...united-manager.470032/page-2074#post-31775190

Apologies for not repeating everything over again in well articulated and formatted posts.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

No but some teams like city rarely get any injuries. And they can run for 120 mins without looking tired. Our players are knackered and injured before running for 90… everyone’s blaming ETH training for it but I doubt Pep does light work training.

Pep has spoken multiple times about having training sessions that were extremely light and focused on concepts.

 

[croadyman]

Yeh, I want a purge but expect a more balanced
Approach by INEOs. I don’t get the Zidane links, feel like he’s a manager who is good with a squad ready to properly challange and I feel we are at least 2 summers (if we do it all well) away from that.

Yeah he definitely doesn't give the impression of a manager who rebuilds a squad,like you say he is all about coming in when a team is ready to challenge for major trophies.

 

[sparx99]

Don't think Jose has ever done that in his career though, once it gets bad it gets really bad and he has to get booted. Van Gaal done it once that I can remember at AZ.

I meant more specifically their track record of success rather than having turned it around before.

 

[Bastian]

There is no maybe. We both know that the word was used to paint a particular picture.

To be honest, I'm not dissecting this with as much scrutiny as you are. My take is that it is pretty common to take a dump on him now, and even though I have been worn out by this clusterfeck of a season and hardly enjoy matches I still don't think he quite deserves this level of ridicule. But I do not pretend to have some high moral standing with regards to it, I was the same with Ole (the manager version), to some extent.

 

[Laurencio]

Yeah he definitely doesn't give the impression of a manager who rebuilds a squad,like you say he is all about coming in when a team is ready to challenge for major trophies.

He seems like a fantastic leader though. I'd take him in a heartbeat.

 

[stevoc]

I meant more specifically their track record of success rather than having turned it around before.

Fair enough mate.

 

[NLunited]

We are either adopting Ten Hags system which clearly isn't working or we are currently not actually playing the way he wants us to because we don't have the players for it.

So what are we doing then? If it's the former an entire season of playing this way hasn't improved performances or results, its went the opposite so how will another season of playing this way improve things?

I‘d love to get an answer to this one. Something other than ‚Ten Hag doesn‘t have a clue‘.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Looking back over my posts, a progression over the season.
I believe the major two points were first the hapless league cup loss against Newcastle's second string with a strong team and then soon after another hapless loss against Newcastle beginning of December. That is when I made this post https://www.redcafe.net/threads/eri...united-manager.470032/page-1560#post-31394774

After the West Ham loss at Christmas, this post https://www.redcafe.net/threads/eri...united-manager.470032/page-1724#post-31475039

But I have to say the worry crept in with the "transition team" quote early in the season, and that quote in combination with what went on in the season, was indeed it for me: https://www.redcafe.net/threads/eri...united-manager.470032/page-2074#post-31775190

Apologies for not repeating everything over again in well articulated and formatted posts.

I’ve read through these and just wanted to say thank you for taking the time to make this post. I much better understand your process from supporting to wanting him gone.

I can definitely understand the frustration at the loss to the weakened Newcastle side I don’t think anyone can in any good faith excuse that shit show.

The West Ham loss was disappointing but I wouldn’t have said it was a terrible performance that made me lose faith in the same way the Newcastle one did given we had Evans and Kwambala at the heart of our defence with Mainoo and McTominay in front. It wasn’t exactly a great defence.

We dominated possession and had if I’m remembering correctly pretty even chances both sides.

As for the transition team comments I think we’re on our way to being that but are missing massively a CB and CDM that can cover large spaces. So for me my biggest red flag would be if we go into the summer without addressing that profile.

I guess I’ve already made my peace with this season being a shit one.

 

[croadyman]

I don't think it has to be long term, especially under new stucture that isn't going to be an issue. We could totally go for a manager that would only be here for a couple of years or even a single season.

But what I meant was, there are many managers out there. There's no real reason why we shouldn't be able to find someone who will do a better job than ETH is doing. Looking at it from the perspective of there not being a Pep out there available is wrong. Just how many of us would have wanted Alonso when Leverkusen hired him for instance? If the new people in charge are competent then finding another manager should not be an impossible task.

Who do you think is that manager who could come in for a season or two until INEOS sort out which direction that they want to go

 

[TsuWave]

A substantial amount of the managers in the prem alone would be an upgrade. Our league position is super flattering

 

[croadyman]

He seems like a fantastic leader though. I'd take him in a heartbeat.

Oh yeah I definitely would too,however feels like he is only waiting for the France job. That's the reason I don’t think the reliable sources are talking about it at all. I also get the impression they don't put him anywhere on Utd shortlist either.

 

[spwd]

Maybe express your opinion in that way then so that it adds value to the discussion and isn’t just negative without context.

It’s very tiresome to see posts like the initial one quoted which just come across hate fuelled and reactionary which it’s my understanding is not what this thread or the forum is meant for.

Some people would sooner get straight to the point than waffle on for half a page. He's also telling the truth because he is a loser that's why we're all having this "Discussion"

Everything has been said a million times anyway and I'm bored of having to scroll past pages of such as you waffling on about how good he is.

 

[croadyman]

Shouldn't the people who hate him on here be glad if the rumor of him quitting is true rather than having a go at him? I assume if he quits the club pays him no money?

On a related note, I remember LvG offering to quit during his second year and then being angry with what the club did to him. Quite a few parallels with that season. Anyway, it looks pretty much certain that it'll be over soon. I just hope he leaves with the FA cup (very unlikely I know)

Personally I don’t hate or despise him but can't support a Utd manager who suffered our joint worst league defeat ever and at Anfield too

 

[stevoc]

I‘d love to get an answer to this one. Something other than ‚Ten Hag doesn‘t have a clue‘.

Same here mate, I've asked before no one seems to have any plausible theories.

I don't think it's Erik doesn't have a clue. He would obviously see it isn't working, but why he hasn't did anything about it is another matter.

 

[spwd]

So you can’t explain why you feel how you do and also cannot point out a single post I have made that was a “ridiculous excuse”.

That’s a shame it feels like you’re not open to explaining your views when someone is asking you to.

It’s also coming across like you’re just attacking the poster now with a baseless accusation and not anything they’ve actually posted.

Shame.

You know exactly why he feels like he does. It's been done to death and he doesn't have to explain anything to anybody.
Are you just being dumb or a wum because I know exactly why he feels like he does just from his post!

 

[spwd]

See I have zero issue with this as an articulated interpretation of his comment.

Can you see the difference between yours and Fortuna’s though and why yours is one that absolutely adds to the discussion while the other adds nothing of value?

So why don’t you just express that?

This isn’t X and I don’t see why poorly written posts that add no value shouldn’t be poked at so the actual views of the poster are clearly understood.

Im also still waiting for a quote of a post of mine that is “ridiculous” id genuinely like to know which you are referring to that made you feel entitled to use that language to describe my posts. I am assuming you meant my posts and not the poster so I’d like you to say which ones are ridiculous.

Your posts are not adding anything to the discussion either you're just being pompous because the guy didn't write a 15000 word essay to express his disgust at the manager making yet more excuses.
As I said in my other post you're either thick or you're wumming because any normal person doesn't need to make this much fuss about someone deciding to express himself in a perfectly understandable way rather than write a novel about it.

Stop looking for an argument and winding someone up who's obviously already pissed off!

 

[croadyman]

A substantial amount of the managers in the prem alone would be an upgrade. Our league position is super flattering

Yeah very lucky to be in top half as across the season we aren't much better than Chelsea. So of the managers obtainable in the league who would you appoint given the choice then?

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

Some people would sooner get straight to the point than waffle on for half a page. He's also telling the truth because he is a loser that's why we're all having this "Discussion"

Everything has been said a million times anyway and I'm bored of having to scroll past pages of such as you waffling on about how good he is.

Couldn’t have said it better myself