Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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stevoc said:
Again you're reading a lot into a turn of phrase. And to be fair I don't think stating that we've had disciplinary problems more than a year into Ten Hags reign with Sancho and Rashford is just my opinion is it?

Which part was opinion?
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The opinion was that his disciplinary measures haven't been successful. The Sancho thing you keep bringing up is a red herring, I'm not suggesting that there will never be disciplinary issues, I'm saying he's handled them very well, and the Sancho thing is a great example. Under previous managers that kind of falling out could (and did) lead to mutiny, whereas under Ten Hag the player has been excised without poisoning the well.

stevoc said:
But don't those two things contradict each other?

We are either adopting Ten Hags system which clearly isn't working or we are currently not actually playing the way he wants us to because we don't have the players for it.

So what are we doing then? If it's the former an entire season of playing this way hasn't improved performances or results, its went the opposite so how will another season of playing this way improve things?

If it's the latter then what is the benefit going forward of playing this mish mash of styles/systems if we'll be playing differently with different players next season anyway?
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There's no contradiction at all. You've made a distinction where none exists. We're adopting a system that doesn't work yet, as we don't have the personnel to make it work, so it looks like a strange hybrid at the moment. Like I said, we can't stick with the mid block that most of this squad was built for, buy the players for his ideal system, and make the switch overnight. I'm pretty confident that any proactive system we tried to adopt, under any manager, would take time to adopt and would be far from optimal for a while, hence why I'm not up in arms at that being the case now.

stevoc said:
I thought we were alright in that regard last season with Varane, Martinez and Shaw.
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We were pretty poor at it in general. Martinez was a light in the darkness, and Shaw adapted well, but the rest of our defenders and DDG were pretty rubbish at it. This season has seen a big improvement in that area, thanks to b personnel (Onana) and even the less suited players have improved due to our persisting with the approach.
 
astracrazy said:
Erm, I'm pretty sure thats not true. I can't remember the game but I thought about Feb time he was saying it was the first time he has been able to pick the team he wants (in a pre match interview).

Seems the excuses are coming out.
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The guy is an absolute excuse merchant.

Liverpool have had an injury crisis every bit as bad as us. I think most teams have.
 
Sarni said:
Funny how the narrative around that has switched since last year when it was universally loved here because ‘these fecking players’ finally knew their place and knew they had to play every game without slacking off. We were playing our best team in games that did not need it at all.
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I did make that point at the time and got some pushback on it. I will say it again, one poorly organized training session can ruin your body for weeks, it can also be the first step toward injuries. At the time my point wasn't to predict what was going to follow but to point to the fact that the way you train or the way you punish players can have consequences that you can't revert or that are very difficult to revert.
 
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astracrazy said:
Erm, I'm pretty sure thats not true. I can't remember the game but I thought about Feb time he was saying it was the first time he has been able to pick the team he wants (in a pre match interview).
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We had our strongest line-up in the 4-3 win against Wolves at the start of February. Pretty sure that was the only one this season, although there were another one or two that were close.
 
Bastian said:
Look at the last couple of pages. Maybe hate is too strong a term, but he's certainly despised on here. And he apparently is a clueless wanker or something similar.
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It's the way it goes on here. Some get way too emotional when they want the manager sacked. Even Ole was despised by a lot of posters towards the end of his reign.
 
Tom Van Persie said:
It's the way it goes on here. Some get way too emotional when they want the manager sacked. Even Ole was despised by a lot of posters towards the end of his reign.
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The way some of our fan base are, they deserve the muck served up post Ferguson.

You can want a manager out, nothing wrong with that viewpoint but the way they go about wanting a manager out poison. Not to mention you can't have a somewhat sensible discussion before it transcends into utter bs.

Your allowed your opinion as long as it is the same as theirs.

Edit: to make it clear, I'm not talking about every fan that wants the manager out. There are as many who want ETH out who can have a sensible debate/conversation as there are who are spoilt brats. Unfortunately the spoilt brats are the loudest
 
Max_United said:
I honestly think that he just picked the match where we get the best result under his tenure (beating City), implying that “see we can even beat City if I have my full-strength team”. Because no way the team he picked for this match was his first choice team, there is no Martinez in the first eleven…
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Yes, this is what I am suspecting as well.
 
Tom Van Persie said:
It's the way it goes on here. Some get way too emotional when they want the manager sacked. Even Ole was despised by a lot of posters towards the end of his reign.
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There's two things. First is that fans are just massively pissed off after years of gross mismanagement by the Glazers and dare to hope each new manager is going to be different. United fans are too patient, probably too patient if you look at match going fans, who seem to value looking principled ahead of being entertained or even challenging for the major trophies. Second is the fans on here who continue to make every excuse under the sun for his failures and indeed those of previous managers. Ole got a lot of credit but he simply isnt a coach, more a man manager, and refused to upgrade his coaching staff and could not advance us. ETH came with a reasonable track record, albeit from a minor league. His sucesses last year came from playing strongest team in a mickey mouse cup, and a favourable European draw in a fairly weak competition. He didn't rotate and his chaotic system means a lot of fitness issues rest on him. But 20 months in and we can't see anything other than the same rubbish. We were wide open and poor against Wolves match day 1, repeat that for almost any of our subsequent games and its the same. In fact new lows now each week. Someone again posted earlier if he had a squad full of 'his' players he could deliver. But noone gets that, and he now regularly sits at least two of his singings on the bench. He's an awful judge of player as well as it seems a limited coach. its a shame but its a very long list of managers who come from smaller leagues and succeed. Jose is in exception but then he did win a major trophy with a smaller team which showed he as quite special. ETH isnt. If more fans could stop trying to look super insightful or something and acknowledge that, I suspect some of the anger would go out of the debate.
 
BenitoSTARR said:
I’m not sure how much the inconsistency though is down to just our quality not quite being there.

The only truly consistent performers in the league are Arsenal, City and Liverpool and all other sides have these drops and blips as part of a natural season.

I think Brentford perfectly highlights the core issue with our squad, we completely lack the physical profiles to compete in those kind of games and Brentford perfectly exposed that as they are arguably the most physically gifted side in the league. Their squad is primarily an athletic one in my eyes. I agree they were also affected badly by injury at that time so I can completely understand the frustration of not being able to get that game over the line. It’s not good enough.

I think if we view this team as one in transition (I think you’ll agree on that) then is it understandable that we won’t have built the squad level to a point that it can cope with the level of injury we’ve had this season without impacting performance? Is it a good indication that when we’ve had access to what should be the core group (particularly in the defensive line) that it’s been better?

And that for me is one of the reasons why I’m not quite at the hit the ejector seat button stage, but the button is on my mind.
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I'm just further down that road than you are. I'm not 100% ETH out, and by that I mean I definitely think it's the best option but if INEOS decide to keep him another season I will give him the benefit of the doubt and try to give him a couple of months next season before I get too negative.

One of my biggest issues is that I don't think we've actually been inconsistent. Our performances have been consistently bad even when we've won, with just the occasional good 30 minutes here, a half of football there. If we were bouncing around between good and bad fairly evenly, I could see the long-game and think that we'd see more and more of the good as time wore on and as hopefully the injuries cleared up or we bought a few more players. But the overwhelming majority of this season has been bad, and the system that ETH has implemented is actively making it more difficult for our players to perform.
 
I think he’s cracking. If he was in INEOS’ plans I think he would have a new contract sorted by now, and it’s obvious they aren’t interested in keeping him on. Not a great situation to be in, but there we are.
 
JPRouve said:
I did make that point at the time and got some pushback on it. I will say it again, one poorly organized training session can ruin your body for weeks, it can also be the first step toward injuries. At the time my point was to predict what was going to follow but to point to the fact that the way you train or the way you punish players can have consequences that you can't revert or that are very difficult to revert.
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The players we have seen injured most this season are exactly the ones that we overplayed last year without any real need. We were playing full strength team against Omonia in EL, against Nottingham in the cup, against lower league sides in FA Cup, basically always, during a season in which many of them had to travel all the way to Qatar on top of having to begin that season earlier and finish it later than usual.

Of course if we had proper structure this would not have happened though because the structure would protect ETH from his own mistakes.
 
For me the most telling thing is rival fans.

Rival fans are begging and wanting Ten Hag to stay. Arsenal fans wanting 10 more years of Ten Hag.

You have “Ten Hag is a fecking clown” implemented into a Man City chant.

You have Jamie fecking Carragher doing tactical breakdowns highlighting Ten Hags awful style of play over the last 12 months. Liverpool fans chanting “Erik Ten Hag, we want you to stay”.

When a manager has potential, fans of our rivals don’t go to this length of trolling. It’s a silly point but it has much more meaning than you think. Don’t brush it off as “feck the other fans”. It’s obvious.
 
Sarni said:
The players we have seen injured most this season are exactly the ones that we overplayed last year without any real need. We were playing full strength team against Omonia in EL, against Nottingham in the cup, against lower league sides in FA Cup, basically always, during a season in which many of them had to travel all the way to Qatar on top of having to begin that season earlier and finish it later than usual.

Of course if we had proper structure this would not have happened though because the structure would protect ETH from his own mistakes.
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I agree with your last sentence and I will add that with a better and more authoritative structure ETH would likely do better but the issue for me is that it's not a positive or an excuse for ETH. The structure that gave him the power that he requested showcased limitations and flaws that are in my opinion non-starters when it comes to elite Football.

I'm convinced that if you babysit him and twist his arm when needed, he could be a decent bridge manager but you shouldn't have to that when it comes to squad management and tactics, that level of shortsightedness and stubbornness shouldn't be accepted by a DOF. When things like that happens a club with a good structure will try to paper over the cracks until they find a new head coach, they don't make excuses and try to make that a permanent situation.
 
stevoc said:
Same here mate, I've asked before no one seems to have any plausible theories.

I don't think it's Erik doesn't have a clue. He would obviously see it isn't working, but why he hasn't did anything about it is another matter.
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He’s either highly incompetent or is too stubborn to change a tactic that is running our team into the ground.

Both are cause for dismissal.
 
Who's Kissing Cameras? said:
For me the most telling thing is rival fans.

Rival fans are begging and wanting Ten Hag to stay. Arsenal fans wanting 10 more years of Ten Hag.

You have “Ten Hag is a fecking clown” implemented into a Man City chant.

You have Jamie fecking Carragher doing tactical breakdowns highlighting Ten Hags awful style of play over the last 12 months. Liverpool fans chanting “Erik Ten Hag, we want you to stay”.

When a manager has potential, fans of our rivals don’t go to this length of trolling. It’s a silly point but it has much more meaning than you think. Don’t brush it off as “feck the other fans”. It’s obvious.
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How is this more telling than us watching the terrible football with our own eyes? We don't need to overthink this.
 
There's nothing rational about his system or philosophy this season. Or his subs.

And if he's suppose to be creating value, so far he's poured £85m+£60m+£12m into a big black hole that we'll never see again.
 
Max_United said:
I honestly think that he just picked the match where we get the best result under his tenure (beating City), implying that “see we can even beat City if I have my full-strength team”. Because no way the team he picked for this match was his first choice team, there is no Martinez in the first eleven…
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Shaw was brought in to deal with Haaland? Which he did well. He had a few games at lcb.
 
QuietOn Fortune said:
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This is why he has predominantly bought players he had previously coached and judged them good enough for this club by their 'fighting spirit' than the actual quality of Football that they can play.

Onana, Mount, Antony, Amrabat, Weghorst, Martinez, Casemiro, Eriksen, Malacia, Hojlund have all different qualities of footballing ability - some good & some bad - but all seem like they have a great mentality, good personality and most of them can bust a gut for a team if they had the physical capacity to do so (casemiro & Eriksen last season vs this season).
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That's actually a good thing, we should still look for these qualities but we should only buy players at a reasonable price, if they actually fill a vacancy in the squad and not play them in a way that exposes or over-exerts them.

Ideally we would get both world class talent and work rate but that's more difficult when you're not in the top 4.
 
The injuries this season are a valid excuse for results and performances not being of the level, however the football we've played is not justifiable. We've not looked like a side that if Varane and Martinez are fit we'll look solid defensively. We've not looked like a side that would be able to cope with a good Casemiro in midfield. I've not watched any of our games and thought we've played well but we're just missing those final pieces. It's been a complete mess that I have no confidence our performances would significantly improve with everyone available.
 
Max_United said:
I honestly think that he just picked the match where we get the best result under his tenure (beating City), implying that “see we can even beat City if I have my full-strength team”. Because no way the team he picked for this match was his first choice team, there is no Martinez in the first eleven…
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That suggests to me he has not been given any assurances by ineos like some were hoping to be the case. He is in desperate survival mode and has been for some time now.
 
Robindinho said:
He's obviously clutching, but probably just means he had a full squad to pick from.

So, we need all 20+ players fit to expect a style of play and maybe a positive goal difference :rolleyes:
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While ignoring the fact that the team was set differently from a tactical standpoint.
 
JPRouve said:
I agree with your last sentence and I will add that with a better and more authoritative structure ETH would likely do better but the issue for me is that it's not a positive or an excuse for ETH. The structure that gave him the power that he requested showcased limitations and flaws that are in my opinion non-starters when it comes to elite Football.

I'm convinced that if you babysit him and twist his arm when needed, he could be a decent bridge manager but you shouldn't have to that when it comes to squad management and tactics, that level of shortsightedness and stubbornness shouldn't be accepted by a DOF. When things like that happens a club with a good structure will try to paper over the cracks until they find a new head coach, they don't make excuses and try to make that a permanent situation.
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I was really being sarcastic there. ‘The structure’ will not be there to protect ETH from his deficiencies and do everything in their power so that they become less glaring. As in any healthy organization people have to be aware how to do their job without being held by hand.
 
The blokes an absolute charlatan, his best teams have taken some of the biggest pastings in memory for many United fans. He needs to STFU and adapt to the environment. So far out of his depth it hurts.
 
hobbers said:
Apparently he's so stupid he forgot he sold Fred and that he tried to replace Eriksen with Mount.

Also have to laugh at Antony and Martinez not being in the team at all. So is he talking rationally or maybe he's just that desperate for excuses now he doesnt care.
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Funny thing that he really shot himself in the foot with this argument, as it implies that Antony and Martinez were bought as back-ups (and Martinez injury excuse does not fly anymore as EtH himself confirmed that he is not part of his preferred 11 ).

But I guess we all know why he tried to frame it that way. We were not good at all in the games when he indeed had his preferred team 11. “I had my first eleven only against Wolves” is not a good look for him, so he tried to get around it.
 
hobbers said:
Apparently he's so stupid he forgot he sold Fred and that he tried to replace Eriksen with Mount.

Also have to laugh at Antony and Martinez not being in the team at all. So is he talking rationally or maybe he's just that desperate for excuses now he doesnt care.
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Selling Fred for peanuts to then play this system all season is a ridiculously bad decision in itself.

The one player we had that could cover a lot of ground.
 
Sarni said:
I was really being sarcastic there. ‘The structure’ will not be there to protect ETH from his deficiencies and do everything in their power so that they become less glaring. As in any healthy organization people have to be aware how to do their job without being held by hand.
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A good structure can and will protect managers from their deficiencies that's how most well run non-elite clubs operate, they don't have the luxury to have "flawless" managers/head coaches and have to find ways to protect those lesser managers from themselves because in the short term it serves the club. The issue is that it means that you have a cap on how high you can go and if the manager shows limitations that require too much support then he is going to be sacked.
 
JPRouve said:
A good structure can and will protect managers from their deficiencies that's how most well run non-elite clubs operate, they don't have the luxury to have "flawless" managers/head coaches and have to find ways to protect those lesser managers from themselves because in the short term it serves the club. The issue is that it means that you have a cap on how high you can go and if the manager shows limitations that require too much support then he is going to be sacked.
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Manager should be able to handle tactics, team selection, motivation etc. They don’t need to be handling transfers or back office activities but they still to be able to handle pretty much everything that relates to team management itself.
 
It's my opinion that Ten Hag has a massive flaw.

It's a flaw that means he will never be an elite manager.

That flaw is... his in-game management. My word does he severely hamper us with that flaw.

How many times have we seen us get off to a good start in matches for the first 10 minutes or so, and then the opposition manager quickly adapts their team and tactics, and then for the rest of the half we get absolutely dominated all over the park.

Ten Hag wants to work in a reality that doesn't exist... one where no players ever have injuries.

Even if all the stars aligned and Ten Hag always had a full-strength squad to choose from, his flaw will always be his undoing.

Good manager? Yes
Elite manager? No
 
Robindinho said:
He's obviously clutching, but probably just means he had a full squad to pick from.

So, we need all 20+ players fit to expect a style of play and maybe a positive goal difference :rolleyes:
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It's not been a full squad, his best defender has not been available. I remember all of us fearing the Shaw-Haaland-duel in advance.

Its a weird example. He just took it to point out what he is able to do when he has his preferred team, even when this has not been the case.
 
The Oracle said:
It's my opinion that Ten Hag has a massive flaw.

It's a flaw that means he will never be an elite manager.

That flaw is... his in-game management. My word does he severely hamper us with that flaw.

How many times have we seen us get off to a good start in matches for the first 10 minutes or so, and then the opposition manager quickly adapts their team and tactics, and then for the rest of the half we get absolutely dominated all over the park.

Ten Hag wants to work in a reality that doesn't exist... one where no players ever have injuries.

Even if all the stars aligned and Ten Hag always had a full-strength squad to choose from, his flaw will always be his undoing.

Good manager? Yes
Elite manager? No
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The Dutch contingent on here warned us that his in-game management was massively lacking, shame they were spot on.
 
IncyWincySpider said:
I think he’s cracking. If he was in INEOS’ plans I think he would have a new contract sorted by now, and it’s obvious they aren’t interested in keeping him on. Not a great situation to be in, but there we are.
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Definitely agree. And if he was firmly in their plans INEOS would provide a public vote of confidence for their manager. They have been silent for a while. I don’t think ETH will be here next season.
 
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