In your world how bad do we have to get before the manager does deserve some blame? Or is blaming him for anything always considered too simplistic?
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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Well, I watch every single United game, I look forward watching it. Because I'm Manchester United fan you know.
We actually progress the ball fairly well most of the time. Usually our attacking threat is negated by individual mistakes. For example, Garnacho did win 2 penalties against Everton, but he failed to release the ball on time and play the correct pass on every dribble he made. Rashford does 1-2 good things in a game but is usually hopeless standing still with the ball in his feet.
Bruno is making many wrong passes, Scot as well.
Our main problems come from defending, we are way too passive and too afraid to lose 1on1 battles. Dalot always steps back and keeps retreating while a winger is advancing on him. Every single time.
Casemiro is reckless in his challenges, Mainoo also doesn't seem particularly active when defending.
We are not trying to cut off the attacks in more advanced positions, we just retreat when they come at us, this is the main reason we concede so many shots.
We need players like Martinez, who are not afraid to go into 1vs1 siutation, to make the first move. He never retreats or steps back. To be fair to him, Harry also has this mentality and tries to jump in early, but he is slow and clumsy and gets skinned easily.
This is also a reason why our opponents always seem to attack us with many players. We retreat too much and let them advance and make runs. I suspect this is part of the plan - invite them in, win the ball and move it forward quickly. But when our DM doesn't have the legs to cover anymore and when our back 4 is shaky and cowardly, this approach doesn't work.
There are positive moments in our general play, but for that type of defending, we need elite DM and amazing back 4. Won't happen with aging Casemiro (although he helps a lot) and semi retired Evans (who funny enough seems our best CB after Licha.), nor with Linde at LB.
We actually progress the ball fairly well most of the time. Usually our attacking threat is negated by individual mistakes. For example, Garnacho did win 2 penalties against Everton, but he failed to release the ball on time and play the correct pass on every dribble he made. Rashford does 1-2 good things in a game but is usually hopeless standing still with the ball in his feet.
Bruno is making many wrong passes, Scot as well.
Our main problems come from defending, we are way too passive and too afraid to lose 1on1 battles. Dalot always steps back and keeps retreating while a winger is advancing on him. Every single time.
Casemiro is reckless in his challenges, Mainoo also doesn't seem particularly active when defending.
We are not trying to cut off the attacks in more advanced positions, we just retreat when they come at us, this is the main reason we concede so many shots.
We need players like Martinez, who are not afraid to go into 1vs1 siutation, to make the first move. He never retreats or steps back. To be fair to him, Harry also has this mentality and tries to jump in early, but he is slow and clumsy and gets skinned easily.
This is also a reason why our opponents always seem to attack us with many players. We retreat too much and let them advance and make runs. I suspect this is part of the plan - invite them in, win the ball and move it forward quickly. But when our DM doesn't have the legs to cover anymore and when our back 4 is shaky and cowardly, this approach doesn't work.
There are positive moments in our general play, but for that type of defending, we need elite DM and amazing back 4. Won't happen with aging Casemiro (although he helps a lot) and semi retired Evans (who funny enough seems our best CB after Licha.), nor with Linde at LB.
OK at this stage I am convinced you have trouble reading.
Don't cherry pick lines and be more comprehensive before quoting me. I just accepted Pulisic as a target and I also clarified later to JPRouve what I meant by the scouting point.
The Athletic has a more recent article than yours effectively saying the scouting database was useless because they never tapped into it. And you still can't acknowledge that. It's actually outstanding how you can be both stubborn and wrong so chronically.
It's not just them. Casemiro is his own imposter and has been even when healthy. Eriksen was a key part to our success early last season, and as a free transfer was a stroke of genius, but was never the same after the injury. The player brought in to replace him picked up a long term injury before he had a chance to properly integrate. Varane has been injured for a spell too, and IIRC Dalot and AWB were not withstanding a match missed here and there, were available for rotation most of last season. I won't bring up Rashford and Sancho who contributed quite a bit last season, because if players are healthy and regress, the manager has to take responsibility. If he had a chance to sell Sancho over the summer and didn't, I won't even give him the benefit of the doubt of hindsight because he absolutely should have considered there was a chance Sancho would regress again.
Managers who worked under the former structure, which was very different to the current structure ETH has been working under.
Top four and a cup run - exactly what every pundit and fan said they wanted to see last season. And that was before seeing what an easy cup run we'd be given, and knowing how badly Chelsea and Liverpool's seasons would go.
The ETH fanbots seem to think we were all expecting to finish 7th last season, having just spent £85m on a marquee winger, £50m on Lisandro and £70m on Casemiro for feck sake
ETH never got rocked up by Liverpool at Old Trafford. His predecessor on the other hand...
Careful there is still a game to play on April 7 because we saw under Ole they can destroy us at Old Trafford
We do in spurts and anyone with eyes and a brain should be able to see the tactics and style of play. The problem is on either end of those spurts we don't get anywhere near the ball when the opposition have it, and don't put the work in to be available for the ball when we have it. Fair or not, that is what will get ETH sacked at the end of the day if he can't do anything about it.
Sounds like he's pretty bad at coaching the players then.
We are not bad, we are winning games. It’s not pretty this season, but frankly the starting 11 has been a Frankenstein more often than not. We still have a hope of making the CL, and if we don’t then it because as a club we are not at that level, not just because the manager is suddenly pants (he was great last season btw)
He takes the blame for the aspects he is responsible for. He’s not perfect of course, or immune to criticism but we had problems long before Erik arrived, and many of them way above his pay grade. There is only so much he can do, without help from those above and around him.
Yeah I do have a little bit of sympathy for him over this LB situation,his medical team misinformed badly. He still should have kept one of Reguilon/Fernandez in case this happened.
"We are not bad"
We are currently 6th with a 0 GD, 15th in Goals scored, and concede more shots than any other team in the league outside of Burnley, while also bottoming our CL group earlier in the year. Every underlying metric says we have been extremely lucky just to be this high up in the table even now. So yeah by every standard of the club we are pretty fecking terrible this year.
The new structure, insofar as it has the ability to effect change from a practical point of view, has been in place for two months. The latter two transfers you're laughing at were brilliant last season. One has been injured and the other a shell of his former self while also being out for a long spell. Unserious post from an unserious poster.Managers who worked under the former structure, which was very different to the current structure ETH has been working under.
Top four and a cup run - exactly what every pundit and fan said they wanted to see last season. And that was before seeing what an easy cup run we'd be given, and knowing how badly Chelsea and Liverpool's seasons would go.
The ETH fanbots seem to think we were all expecting to finish 7th last season, having just spent £85m on a marquee winger, £50m on Lisandro and £70m on Casemiro for feck sake
The team finished 2nd and 3rd in Ole's last 2 full seasons before having literally one, one! poor season. To not make the expectations be finishing top 4 in the new manager's first season is just plain out ridiculous. What.. if Ten Hag had finished 5th or 6th, the fans would have wanted him to continue ?
Don't dodge the question and answer it.
I agree. We should have at least 2 LB and then at least a youth prospect for 3rd choice. Don’t think it helps that AWB is injured because we have Dalot who can play both sides so I'm wondering if that played into his mind when letting the LBs go. Although we’d be in the same situation for RB then, if Dalot played LB and AWB is injured who plays RB.
Think it's actually Sheff Utd,however totally agree with you those stats are damning. Like you say we are lucky to have so many points.
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Go play in traffic I owe you nothing.
If we were winning games, we wouldn't have been where were now, nor would have been any of the ongoing discussions.
That's literally all we get from Ten Hag fanbase. Throwing insults at everyone, considering their opinion as the ultimate fact that can't be disputed, and refuse to answer any logical question that might shake their opinions. Basically you summarized your agenda in one small sentence. There's a reason this forum has become terrible.
It’s all well and good saying you have patience. But it’s disingenuous to suggest that people wanting a change in manager are lumping all the issues on him and and are after a quick fix. We have structural issues at United which Ineos are trying to remedy with their acquisitions. It’s up for debate whether Ten Hag is a part of those issues or not. Ineos’ people will make that decision sooner rather than later, if they haven’t already.
The laughter is for the deranged claim that the club can spend those sorts of figures on three marquee signings, under an exciting new manager by all accounts on the up, but expectations somehow stayed below a top four finish or league cup run.
You can graduate to being a serious poster when you've figured out the difference between your tedious opinions and facts.
This thread is wild
Structure hasn't been in place long enough to effect change - Fact
Casemiro and Martinez were brilliant last season - Fact
Both have been injured for long stretches this season - Fact
This thread is wild
I said it like 13 months ago, ( I will look for the post and quote it here), when you start to get a divisive fan base just know the manager is doing a very very bad job.
Its one of the major symptom of a failed regime, tenure and it's usually a precipitate to a manager being sacked many of the times.
Now, as of today, Arsenal, Liverpool, City fans all believe in their managers completely, there is no big division. Why because their managers are doing something positive.
For us, division are getting bigger and bigger. Cracks between fans is widening in opinions, and that shows you how badly ETH has done.
We all love United but have different opinion regarding our manager. Big red flag.
So basically the expectation according to his fans was that the club would hire one of the best managers in the world, allow him to sign a £60m defender he had worked with, a £70m midfielder widely regarded as one of the best in the world and a £85m winger that had also worked under same manager and that this very manager must have been absolutely certain was going to add a lot to this team, and then expect to not improve at all.
There’s hardly any division anymore though. Most seem to be on the same page. There may have been a split a couple of months ago but all but a few of his most devoted fanboys have already accepted that he’s mediocre.
I said it like 13 months ago, ( I will look for the post and quote it here), when you start to get a divisive fan base just know the manager is doing a very very bad job.
Its one of the major symptom of a failed regime, tenure and it's usually a precipitate to a manager being sacked many of the times.
Now, as of today, Arsenal, Liverpool, City fans all believe in their managers completely, there is no big division. Why because their managers are doing something positive.
For us, division are getting bigger and bigger. Cracks between fans is widening in opinions, and that shows you how badly ETH has done.
We all love United but have different opinion regarding our manager. Big red flag.
To feck with selling Bruno to rely on Mount, if we sell Bruno we would need to sign a replacement
And yet the majority of the fan's expectations before the season started was that we would struggle to get top 4. Most opposition fans agreed as well. No harm in saying EtH achieved more than was expected last season. The very squad that finished 2nd and 3rd and couldn't win in a final to save their lives was the same squad that finished 6th and took absolute hammerings along the way. It was fairly reasonable to expect ETh to struggle to get top 4 in his first season especially once the season started and we had failed to get rid of likes of Maguire etc. That's before even mentioning Ronaldo etc. I think its not even an argument that he achieved more than what was expected given the context of the the previous season, the pre-season, the actual season and the general state of the club.
People can make good arguments for or against EtH and how he has performed this season without needing to diminish last season.
The way the online fanbase are so keen to divide themselves into factions now makes conversations around the club inevitably turn toxic, with people just wanting to see their desired outcome no matter what. Social media no doubt encourages this, but this thread in particular has become pathetic reading.
Nah we we all expecting a 6th place finish apparently. Only ETH's genius could explain us punching so far above our expectations. And now we've simply dipped back to normal levels, along with all the other clubs who spent £440m in two summers and agreed about £900k/week in contract extensions.
Yet, in an effort to defend Ten Hag - people often fabricate stuff.
I don't have trouble reading. You just make stuff up and struggle with saying "I'm wrong" so you contort, pivot and try to drag the conversation elsewhere incessantly between making stuff up. This is the point I contested - why is the crux of your argument "there were no viable alternatives presented by the club" when there are reports of United being in for a right-winger that predate Ten Hag's appointment, there are also reports of us looking/wanting Gakpo (which you somehow out of the blue said "he was likely a Ten Hag suggestion"), and there are also reports of us being in for Pulisic? doesn't all that debunk the whole "no viable alternatives presented by the club"?
Fix up and don't let me catch you spreading this type of fanfiction around here again:
Fix up.
"We are not bad, we are winning games" genuinely made me laugh. Kinda shows how pointless these discussions are when "arguments" like that are considered reasonable. I guess no matter how bad it gets you will always have people defending him no matter what. It has gotten so bad that thankfully not many defenders are left but enough to keep the thread going.
We are not bad
Diminishing last season ? Saying we didn't "overachieve" by finishing top 4 and winning a League Cup isn't "diminishing" it. It's putting things in their logical place. Ten Hag didn't inherit a midtable team, for God's sake. He got a team that finished 2nd and 3rd in the previous 3 years, and spent ton of money as well on the likes of Casemiro and Antony, but apparently finishing top 4 was way too much for us!
If Ten Hag had finished 5th or 6th last season, would you have wanted him to continue ?
The question I was replying to was about expectations from fans before Ten Hag took over and where we would be after 2 years under his management.
And we didn't overachieve last season, we came 3rd ffs. He took over Manchester United not Brighton.
I've clarified what I meant by that and showed a more recent article than yours. Which you continue to ignore even though it supports everything I said.
"Don't let me catch you again" - what are you going to even do? Who in the blue hell are you to decide what is true and what is false? I gave my evidences and context on everything I said, and you've resorted to cherry picking lines again.
Idiot post. Checks out.
It’s neck and neck with LVG and his possession football of passing the ball till we’re bored to death vs ETH with his transition football where where we treat the ball like a bomb.
It’s clear to me that he has no intention to get us to play the type of football Ajax played. If he tried to do that and we were failing I’d at least give him the benefit of the doubt that maybe with time and a bit more resources we will be able to play proactive possession football. But this whole kick and rush thing does my head in. I think he’s right that our players are more suited for transition football and if that’s the case then what’s the point of going on with him when he has shown very little positive signs of executing it properly or ever at any of his previous clubs
It’s clear to me that he has no intention to get us to play the type of football Ajax played. If he tried to do that and we were failing I’d at least give him the benefit of the doubt that maybe with time and a bit more resources we will be able to play proactive possession football. But this whole kick and rush thing does my head in. I think he’s right that our players are more suited for transition football and if that’s the case then what’s the point of going on with him when he has shown very little positive signs of executing it properly or ever at any of his previous clubs
Yes the name of the club is Manchester United we’re all aware what that implies. Is there no context to be applied beyond that?
He took over a team that finished 6th amidst one of the worst united seasons in decades, a team bearing in mind that could not win a final or a meaningful semi final, that was the team he inherited (and even in that you can argue he had a more successful first season than any of Ole's). General consensus was that they were not favourites for top 4 for a reason, even after buying Casemiro who we all knew was a panic buy after not getting De Jong and then Licha, Malacia, Antony. Now you maybe saw that squad and thought they'd get 3rd and a cup but the majority of fans and opposition alike didn't. So yes, by that measure he acheived more than what was expected.
And in regards to your question, there are multiple scenarios where that would have been fine for a first season rebuild:
- if we had played exciting football but was let down by the general lack of quality in the squad
- If it was very tight and we just missed out on the last day
- 5th and a cup etc
Hell I remember having this very discussion on here when he joined. The problem I think with some fans, and this may or may not be applicable to you, is that they are judging this team on levels that the team doesnt deserve. There was no way in hell this was going to be turned around in 1 season and we all knew that. So any fans saying that Ten Hag should have been fighting for the prem or finishing 1st or 2nd with that squad and those signings in his first season are delusional.
Why are people purposely ignoring the worst injury crisis we've had in over 10 years. In 2024 we have played 11, Won 8, Drawn 1, lost 2.
That is with the majority of the first team back but still missing a lot of players.
We will be a lot closer to top 4 without all the injuries.
That is with the majority of the first team back but still missing a lot of players.
We will be a lot closer to top 4 without all the injuries.
I wont mind the losses , the table position if his signings showed a net positive impact and we had a way , a style of play. The lack of goals couldve been chalked up to not having an established striker or dip in form of the attackers.
Instead we have an incoherent mess. Almost all his signings have been poor with an 85m Antony leading the way. We have no style of play, no pattern. Our players cant cross the ball, cant string passes to save their lives, cant hold possession. We give teams chance after chance to score against us and rely on pure dumb luck to either draw or win. Not to mention, our games are a chore to watch.
The City vs Liverpool game yesterday was depressing to watch because of how good a game it was and how United shows almost none of the abilities on display in that game ( except for Diaz's misses )
Instead we have an incoherent mess. Almost all his signings have been poor with an 85m Antony leading the way. We have no style of play, no pattern. Our players cant cross the ball, cant string passes to save their lives, cant hold possession. We give teams chance after chance to score against us and rely on pure dumb luck to either draw or win. Not to mention, our games are a chore to watch.
The City vs Liverpool game yesterday was depressing to watch because of how good a game it was and how United shows almost none of the abilities on display in that game ( except for Diaz's misses )
They value their opinion so much that they also downplay what the Glazers have done to this club, which is about as disloyal as a Man Utd fan can be.
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