Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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Exactly, our club structure has been shiit. We have been making poor decisions for over a decade.

Think there's more to it than that, Mount would likely been a totally different player under Klopp, likewise McAllister and Szoboszlai being inferior under Eth. It's not the standard of the players in question but the pedigree of the coaching that will extract more out of them.

The quality of this team is continually ridiculed to exacerbate the issue of why there's failures this season but provisionally this is a decent team when assessing the capabilities of the players individually. The seasons predictions thread is further evidence of this as foresight excludes recency bias to have a more impartial view of the squad overall. The fact that there's hardly if not any concrete targets in the market that without certainty many of us can say brings the team to significant level, exemplifies that the squad has decent strength.

Therefore it emphasises the reality, that the manager is fundamentally the weakest link when assessing consistency and results in correlation to squad depth and quality. It's even more damning when considering that this is the best accumulation of players the manager has managed in his respective career.

'The gap and the gain' theory springs to mind with Eth and it's very obvious when assessing both what he's done and what he is attempting to do. With two years in charge we have knowledge of the gap (understanding what's needed moving forward to win) and with two years he has demonstrated his capacity which covers the gain (what it takes to get there). Tactically when you assess United over both seasons, the manager doesn't have what it takes from a coaching, philosophical and tactical perspective for the team to bridge the gap and enter the territory of winning (gain). I believe Erik is a good manager under the prospectus of Murtough, but he's the total opposite when assigned with the ambitions of Ratcliffe. The time horizon Ratcliffe has orchestrated his aspirations on makes Erik's position even more farcical.

Protruding further into that theory, it's fundamentally what Solskjaer highlighted in his interview, the inability of making the next step. The next step doesn't happen from changing player personnel, it's the momentum the manager builds in moving from strength to strength. So when players are signed, they are signed into a function as opposed to being signed to inaugurate the function. That's how reputable coaches have a system that works within 6 months as opposed to having a shopping list to show some semblance of success. Erik doesn't have what it takes, I've made countless predictions this season which have proven to be true from the summer signings, to the teams performances and I think it's beyond rationalisation to assume Erik is going to come of age with further windows and more time.
 
They’re not nobodies. All of those players are highly regarded. Them being mocked at their rival team’s forum isn’t a great yardstick to go by. Liverpool were missing some players but that team is quite strong so I don’t think this narrative of some miraculous display by Liverpool is correct.

At the same time, I agree with the point on Ten Hag. There’s just been nothing on display from his United team that says he’s performing excellently as a coach. The imprint of that simply is not there. And our rivals consistently show us the standard of coaching (and recruitment and executive quality ) we desperately need.
To an extent they were, they were not huge names, but City also mostly buy non huge names as well.
 
Bring expectations down or just be a little bit realistic? Liverpool worked years towards where they are now and are just a better team at this moment. When ETH signed almost two years ago, did you expect that Manchester United would be able to compete with Liverpool and Manchester City in just the second season?

It would have been nice but I reckon few expected it so soon.

On the other hand though I doubt anyone expected that we'd be duking it out with West Ham and Brighton for 6th or 7th either.
 
It's not just Liverpool and City, nowadays it is acceptable to expect a loss against pretty much any half decent team and just explain it away with Martinez being out, or players downing the tools.
Who has been injured long term this season other than Martinez?
 
It would have been nice but I reckon few expected it so soon.

On the other hand though I doubt anyone expected that we'd be duking it out with West Ham and Brighton for 6th or 7th either.

So you have a first season that by all accounts overachieved, and a injury riddled second season that has underachieved. Why is season 2 the only one to be acknowledged?
 
Who has been injured long term this season other than Martinez?

I think having neither Martinez nor Luke Shaw or any left back for the at matter has severely hampered our ability to progress the ball on the left side, which is usually our stronger attacking outlet. In that respect he’s been hung out to try by the physios or Murtough or whichever bum who told him he’ll be getting two left backs back when he let go of Reguilon.
 
If you didn't see the drastic difference in quality when we had Martinez and Shaw available I don't know if there is a point in any discussion.
With Martinez and Shaw we are able to pass the ball on the ground through the middle.
With Harry, Evans, Victor we just kick it high forward.

No manager in the world can teach into players qualities they don't have.

Don't be surprised when we struggle next year with the next manager. Highly unlikely that one summer will solve all our problems.
Gotta admit, reading "sack De Zebri the fraud" will be exhausting.
 
When ETH signed almost two years ago, did you expect that Manchester United would be able to compete with Liverpool and Manchester City in just the second season?

No, but I expected us to be able to compete with Aston Villa & Tottenham. I also expected us to be closer to the likes of City & Liverpool than the likes of West Ham, Brighton & Wolves.
 
It is not his job to identify and recruit players, it is not his job to keep them fit, it is also not his job to motivate them and arguably also not his job to prepare tactics where he should at least be heavily assisted by his assistant coaches. All the above means to me is we have not provided him with the scouting team, physios, assistant coaches and motivational coaches that he requires to succeed. He has not failed at anything (in fact he has succeeded at getting us a cup, basically on his own).

Only after we've given him world class people at all these jobs we will be able to assess him.
On the basis that he insisted on having an input/veto on signings, I think by it's nature makes him at least partially responsible, especially given the number of his ex-players which have been recruited under his tenure.... or is that pure co-incidence?

Serious questions based on your honest opinion:

Would Pep, Klopp or Arteta (or other managers feel free to add) have gotten more out of our squad this season?

What league position would Man City, Arsenal or Liverpool be in this season if managed by ETH? (employing the high press-low block formation he has this season)


I get what you are saying about him having the right staff and players, but in all seriousness, if ETH is a manager who can only be effective when everything is perfect and all the stars align, then how good a manager is he, especially as this scenario is hardly likely to ever happen even if INEOS do an astounding job.
 
If we get a pasting the weekend Vs Liverpool will that be the end of him as manager. International break might save him or INEOS might come out will a ultimatium but be 2 weeks of more speculation for him then tough one Vs Brentford away.
 
I think having neither Martinez nor Luke Shaw or any left back for the at matter has severely hampered our ability to progress the ball on the left side, which is usually our stronger attacking outlet. In that respect he’s been hung out to try by the physios or Murtough or whichever bum who told him he’ll be getting two left backs back when he let go of Reguilon.
That's the point I was making. The post I responded conveniently left out the plethora of injuries we've faced this season. I can't wrap my head around these agenda campaigns against the manager of their own club they claim to support.
 
Inspirational. Now we are back to mid. If you have quality ingredients, you can raise your game. In order to make an omelette, he's going to have to have a full and frank conversation with the eggs. However sweaty.
If we're going to talk about quality ingredients we're going to have to acknowledge the role injuries have played this season.
 
If you didn't see the drastic difference in quality when we had Martinez and Shaw available I don't know if there is a point in any discussion.
With Martinez and Shaw we are able to pass the ball on the ground through the middle.
With Harry, Evans, Victor we just kick it high forward.

No manager in the world can teach into players qualities they don't have.

Don't be surprised when we struggle next year with the next manager. Highly unlikely that one summer will solve all our problems.
Gotta admit, reading "sack De Zebri the fraud" will be exhausting.
The point is the manger should realise this and adjust his tactics to suit the 11 he has available, not blindly stick to formations and tactics which are incompatible, you are conflating 2 things which do not support your argument in order to support your argument
 
The point is the manger should realise this and adjust his tactics to suit the 11 he has available, not blindly stick to formations and tactics which are incompatible, you are conflating 2 things which do not support your argument in order to support your argument

That's a fair point.
ETH showed tactical flexibility at Anfield for example.
 
In the same thread we have demands that we employ aggressive tactics like Liverpool yesterday, and also adjust the tactics in accordance with the lack of quality brought about by injuries :lol:
 
In the same thread we have demands that we employ aggressive tactics like Liverpool yesterday, and also adjust the tactics in accordance with the lack of quality brought about by injuries :lol:
No, this is just a convenient straw man you've created. Liverpool has been plagued by injuries as well.
 
That's the point I was making. The post I responded conveniently left out the plethora of injuries we've faced this season. I can't wrap my head around these agenda campaigns against the manager of their own club they claim to support.
If we're going to talk about quality ingredients we're going to have to acknowledge the role injuries have played this season.

According to the data posted a couple of pages back, we’re 6th in the league in terms of most injuries this season. So while clearly far from ideal, the idea that we’ve suffered some sort of mass unprecedented injury crisis that no other club has ever seen before, is simply bollocks.
 
That's a fair point.
ETH showed tactical flexibility at Anfield for example.
Agreed, but far too often he has stuck to a high press-low block which has seen our defence decimated due to having zero protection from marauding attackers, if we had spent the season really scratching out dogged results due to injuries I would have a lot more faith in ETH but instead we have looked wide open against every team we play.

I would liken ETH football this season like the Rocky Balboa school of boxing, wide open defence just hoping you can slug the other guy out before you get flattened, at times the attacking can be entertaining, but everything else is just pure punishment and it is soooo painful
 
No, this is just a convenient straw man you've created. Liverpool has been plagued by injuries as well.
Liverpool haven't had close to the same volume of injuries. They did have the same volume of injuries the season after they won the league IIRC if you want an example. Next.
 
Injuries have been an obvious issue, but I don’t think the system he has built toward this season is suited to our league. Last season we played reasonable football but a lot of the time he got the most out of what we had, without a long term system in place. I think he needs to seriously tweak his ideas to adapt to the English game, like other managers have. So far he’s shown to be either unwilling or unable to do that.
 
So you have a first season that by all accounts overachieved, and a injury riddled second season that has underachieved. Why is season 2 the only one to be acknowledged?

By all what account did he overachieve?

Winning a cup and finishing third or second is something we've done quite a few times under previous failed managers.
 
According to the data posted a couple of pages back, we’re 6th in the league in terms of most injuries this season. So while clearly far from ideal, the idea that we’ve suffered some sort of mass unprecedented injury crisis that no other club has ever seen before, is simply bollocks.
Speaking of bollocks, did the graph take starting 11 players into account?
 
Bring expectations down or just be a little bit realistic? Liverpool worked years towards where they are now and are just a better team at this moment. When ETH signed almost two years ago, did you expect that Manchester United would be able to compete with Liverpool and Manchester City in just the second season?

Did you expect us to lose 11 games out of 28 ones and be with zero GD while finishing last in our CL group in his second season when he was hired ?
 
By all what account did he overachieve?

Winning a cup and finishing third or second is something we've done quite a few times under previous failed managers.
I wasn't giving you an opinion. He overachieved.
 
So you have a first season that by all accounts overachieved, and a injury riddled second season that has underachieved. Why is season 2 the only one to be acknowledged?

Overachieved ? We finished top 4 and won a League Cup. What's the overachievement in this ? He didn't challenge for the league last year, for God's sake. That's what overachievement would have been.

He basically just managed what the previous managers also did.
 
The manager doesn’t play the way *I* think he should so he has to go.
The team isn’t performing as good as my FM save, so he should lose his job.
This team that hasn’t performed for years should be playing much better football even though they’ve never really looked capable of it before.
I am not entertained by the way we play, even though we are winning. We should start again from scratch.
I want to appoint an unproven flavour of the month manager, because I don’t have the stomach or patience to develop the club and build back to where we were under Sir Alex. I’m hoping for a quick fix because I am in denial about the true state of the club.

It doesn't take Scooby Doo to realise that the tactics the manager is using are leaving us very open.
 
In the same thread we have demands that we employ aggressive tactics like Liverpool yesterday, and also adjust the tactics in accordance with the lack of quality brought about by injuries :lol:
The big difference is that Liverpool has the type of players to play that way even if their starters are injured. United has more backups with different skillsets than the starters. Which means that United has to adjust the tactical setup more due to injuries (but doesn't) as Liverpool would have. That's a direct consequence of the chaotic squad building of the last decade. Does it make EtH's job harder in that regard than Klopp's? Oh yes it does. Does EtH do it well? No he doesn't.
 
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