Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[theyneverlearn]

I was happy enough with the win, and it’s hard to argue that if there was to be a winner than we deserved it more.

Team was missing some key players, with no recognised striker or LB, Bruno injured, Casemiro clearly exhausted, I’ll take the win and run.

 

[bringbackbebe]

Yeah I hold my hands up to being one of those,however that's because I was certain he would play that Ajax style here. Unfortunately he has confirmed that's not going to happen

Somethings take time and it's not going to be a linear progress.

In Ajax, he started off with a reasonably young team with a set culture, an amazing DOF in Overmars and a supportive CEO in VDS whose sole role was not maximizing commercial profitability. Ajax in the seasons prior also finished 2nd for 4 consecutive seasons before he took over.

Our case was the exact opposite. End Rangnick, we were in disarray with no hope, no plan, with no system or structure, lazy players and bloated egos with paychecks, our best young promise was Elanga, and culture was intensely caustic. A lot of things have changed since. I do not disagree the fact that we play terrible football currently but I do have hope we will improve if he is given time, probably another season. Injuries to key players at the wrong time have not helped his cause either.

He would be viewed very differently had he finished 6th last season when expectations at the start was relegation and 3rd this season when expectations from fans was title contention.

 

[Berbaclass]

What are they doing at this point? I don’t believe they will sack him. He will get this season and probably next as well.

Working

 

[sparx99]

It's all just feeling a bit too much like LVGs football, slow, laboured, rigid and boring. Maybe the Dutch style just don't translate well to the English game.

Didn’t Guus Hiddink set the goals record at Chelsea or was that Ancelotti?

 

[Gordon Godot]

Somethings take time and it's not going to be a linear progress.

In Ajax, he started off with a reasonably young team with a set culture, an amazing DOF in Overmars and a supportive CEO in VDS whose sole role was not maximizing commercial profitability. Ajax in the seasons prior also finished 2nd for 4 consecutive seasons before he took over.

Our case was the exact opposite. End Rangnick, we were in disarray with no hope, no plan, with no system or structure, lazy players and bloated egos with paychecks, our best young promise was Elanga, and culture was intensely caustic. A lot of things have changed since. I do not disagree the fact that we play terrible football currently but I do have hope we will improve if he is given time, probably another season. Injuries to key players at the wrong time have not helped his cause either.

He would be viewed very differently had he finished 6th last season when expectations at the start was relegation and 3rd this season when expectations from fans was title contention.

Are we still whining about Ajax and injuries. They play in one of the weakest league's in Europe and are a giant in a tiny pond, they have more resources than most of the rest of the league put together. ETH has sadly shown nothing this season, and I would argue for quite long periods last season. We are simply awful to watch, and cant do anything well. We dont defend well, we dont control the ball, and we cant create. We still have a team full of internationals, he plays the same formations with the same results every week. What expectations at the start 'were relegation'? The rubbish posted on here.

 

[bringbackbebe]

The rubbish posted on here.

So basically, anyone who disagrees with your point of view and does not see things the same way you do is posting rubbish?

We have been through the same with Moyes, LVG, Mourinho, Ole and Rangnick. If sacking managers got us to places, I'd be all in. The issue is not the manager alone and miracles in a season or two from where we were end Rangnick is unheard of at any club, let alone one the size of United.

 

[croadyman]

Somethings take time and it's not going to be a linear progress.

In Ajax, he started off with a reasonably young team with a set culture, an amazing DOF in Overmars and a supportive CEO in VDS whose sole role was not maximizing commercial profitability. Ajax in the seasons prior also finished 2nd for 4 consecutive seasons before he took over.

Our case was the exact opposite. End Rangnick, we were in disarray with no hope, no plan, with no system or structure, lazy players and bloated egos with paychecks, our best young promise was Elanga, and culture was intensely caustic. A lot of things have changed since. I do not disagree the fact that we play terrible football currently but I do have hope we will improve if he is given time, probably another season. Injuries to key players at the wrong time have not helped his cause either.

He would be viewed very differently had he finished 6th last season when expectations at the start was relegation and 3rd this season when expectations from fans was title contention.

I would view him very differently if he had taken action before we got slaughtered at Anfield. I feel he should have pulled plug on Antony when price got stupid, also spent that Mount money on some cover for key players then wouldn't be such costly misses.

 

[sparx99]

The football since the New Year has been significantly better in general. Since the Garnacho, Hojlund, Rashford front three has come together we’ve been a much better watch and scored more goals. I think we are still unbeaten when those three start together..

What is frustrating is that any progress on the on the pitch seems to immediately get curtailed by either an injury or a bad performance. Shaw and Martinez returning did make a difference and then we lose them again. Hojlund can’t stop scoring and gets injured.

What does concern me with ETH is his tendency to break things that are working to try to solve another issue. Hojlund being injured has led to Rashford and Garancho both playing in different positions to where they have been in good form. Just throw McTominay up front as a striker and leave those two where they were.

 

[bringbackbebe]

I would view him very differently if he had taken action before we got slaughtered at Anfield. I feel he should have pulled plug on Antony when price got stupid, also spent that Mount money on some cover for key players then wouldn't be such costly misses.

ETH wanted a winger. He had nothing to do with price negotiation and it was not his call on whether Antony was worth or not. That falls on a DOF & the managing director and their inability to negotiate as well as our then scouting department which couldn't differentiate Nesta from Titus Bramble and hence offer proper alternatives. Our other options at that point were Rashford, Sancho, Elanga. Is Antony an upgrade to Sancho and Elanga? Absolutely.

Have ETH's transfers been more successful than his predecessors? Yes. Martinez, Eriksen, Casemiro, Evans & Hojland have all been good business. Malacia, Mount we can't judge yet because of their injuries. Onana has been performing well since his terrible start. Antony has been the only absolute failure along with Weghorst and Sabitzer. He's also promoted Garnacho and Mainoo, and there is clear indication in the direction we are heading in terms of intent on playing youth, finally.

For these reasons, and the fact that he will now have owner backing and a proper team to support him, I'm positive in spite of the crappy football we've been playing.

 

[Acquire Me]

Working

Well, yeah, they are working. It’s going to be a lot of changes for us. Exciting times for sure.

 

[sparx99]

ETH wanted a winger. He had nothing to do with price negotiation and it was not his call on whether Antony was worth or not. That falls on a DOF & the managing director and their inability to negotiate as well as our then scouting department which couldn't differentiate Nesta from Titus Bramble and hence offer proper alternatives. Our other options at that point were Rashford, Sancho, Elanga. Is Antony an upgrade to Sancho and Elanga? Absolutely.

Have ETH's transfers been more successful than his predecessors? Yes. Martinez, Eriksen, Casemiro, Evans & Hojland have all been good business. Malacia, Mount we can't judge yet because of their injuries. Onana has been performing well since his terrible start. Antony has been the only absolute failure along with Weghorst and Sabitzer. He's also promoted Garnacho and Mainoo, and there is clear indication in the direction we are heading in terms of intent on playing youth, finally.

I do my best to see the positives but ETH can’t be entirely absolved of the Antony situation. He had worked with him before, he must have been involved in some discussions as the fee was climbing (heck we all knew as the papers were reporting it) and most importantly he hasn’t seemed to get very much out of the player at all.

What actually frustrates me is that I do see talent in Antony. He just seems to have no idea what to do on the pitch. It often appears our wingers have full license to just shoot on sight. What I’d like to see is all of them banned from shooting from outside the box because they are all terrible at it.

As well as that Antony needs to told to keep things simple. He doesn’t need to do stupid flicks and tricks. He needs to move the ball more quickly to another player, cross or take his man on. He dwells on the ball too much. That kind of instruction hasn’t been demanded of him though otherwise we’d have seen changes to how he plays.

 

[Berbaclass]

Well, yeah, they are working. It’s going to be a lot of changes for us. Exciting times for sure.

You said they won’t be doing anything. I’m confused.

 

[RopersReturn]

Let's see what he does against city and the two games against Liverpool. If he can get a couple wins then he might have a chance of finishing out his contract. 2 losses and no chance he should be back next year.

Either way it’s certainly an opportunity for the players to prove themselves, or the dressing room to turn on ETH.

 

[Gordon Godot]

I do my best to see the positives but ETH can’t be entirely absolved of the Antony situation. He had worked with him before, he must have been involved in some discussions as the fee was climbing (heck we all knew as the papers were reporting it) and most importantly he hasn’t seemed to get very much out of the player at all.

What actually frustrates me is that I do see talent in Antony. He just seems to have no idea what to do on the pitch. It often appears our wingers have full license to just shoot on sight. What I’d like to see is all of them banned from shooting from outside the box because they are all terrible at it.

As well as that Antony needs to told to keep things simple. He doesn’t need to do stupid flicks and tricks. He needs to move the ball more quickly to another player, cross or take his man on. He dwells on the ball too much. That kind of instruction hasn’t been demanded of him though otherwise we’d have seen changes to how he plays.

ETH was given significant if not full control over transfers. It's been widely reported our scouts had already ruled out Antony, so he clearly overruled them. Then he was clearly desperate for him and must have wanted him before the end of the season. He will have known that Ajax would demand a silly fee, and not only that it would raise further questions over the singing and also reduce the funds for other players. He will have been briefed. Its not fully on ETH and we know our negotiations are terrible, but he clearly wanted him and must have pushed at the end of the window. To try and absolve ETH from what I would still argue is our worst ever signing is pathetic (though at this point Mount probably rivals Antony).

 

[Acquire Me]

You said they won’t be doing anything. I’m confused.

With Erik ten Hag. You know that

 

[bringbackbebe]

I do my best to see the positives but ETH can’t be entirely absolved of the Antony situation. He had worked with him before, he must have been involved in some discussions as the fee was climbing (heck we all knew as the papers were reporting it) and most importantly he hasn’t seemed to get very much out of the player at all.

What actually frustrates me is that I do see talent in Antony. He just seems to have no idea what to do on the pitch. It often appears our wingers have full license to just shoot on sight. What I’d like to see is all of them banned from shooting from outside the box because they are all terrible at it.

As well as that Antony needs to told to keep things simple. He doesn’t need to do stupid flicks and tricks. He needs to move the ball more quickly to another player, cross or take his man on. He dwells on the ball too much. That kind of instruction hasn’t been demanded of him though otherwise we’d have seen changes to how he plays.

I agree. I think the original role for Antony was envisioned as a playmaker winger, someone who would cut inside and dictate play from the wings. Unfortunately, he doesn't seem good enough to execute it in the premier league at least. Off the field issues and injuries have not helped his cause either.

 

[Berbaclass]

With Erik ten Hag. You know that

I don’t think so. They will have given and will continue to give their views on the situation.

 

[Gordon Godot]

I agree. I think the original role for Antony was envisioned as a playmaker winger, someone who would cut inside and dictate play from the wings. Unfortunately, he doesn't seem good enough to execute it in the premier league at least. Off the field issues and injuries have not helped his cause either.

Wow, the amount of time wasted trying to find something in Antony. A 'playmaker'??? Really? How many sideways and backwards passes does he make. He offers virtually nothing, he cannot beat a player and is woefully one footed. The central areas are always congested and yet all he does is cut in or play it into the congestion. He cuts inside all the time and that makes us worse, and entirely predictable

 

[Acquire Me]

I don’t think so. They will have given and will continue to give their views on the situation.

At this point they would do themselves a disservice by sacking him. But tbf who actually knows? I don’t know, it just doesn’t make sense for me.

I believe they got more than enough patience to wait for this season to end. Then they will have more key people in and can make some important decisions.

 

[bringbackbebe]

Wow, the amount of time wasted trying to find something in Antony. A 'playmaker'??? Really? How many sideways and backwards passes does he make. He offers virtually nothing, he cannot beat a player and is woefully one footed. The central areas are always congested and yet all he does is cut in or play it into the congestion. He cuts inside all the time and that makes us worse, and entirely predictable

Reminded of this?
https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...hester-united-ferguson-veron-defence-27164870

Some transfers don't work out for what ever reason. Some take time to work out. Antony is right now a backup to Rashford & Garnacho and he's an upgrade to Sancho. Who else would you play in his place right now when one of Hojland, Rashford & Garnacho are out? We don't exactly have an awesome squad depth. Not long ago, we didn't have a squad.

 

[Gordon Godot]

Reminded of this?
https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...hester-united-ferguson-veron-defence-27164870

Some transfers don't work out for what ever reason. Some take time to work out. Antony is right now a backup to Rashford & Garnacho and he's an upgrade to Sancho. Who else would you play in his place right now when one of Hojland, Rashford & Garnacho are out? We don't exactly have an awesome squad depth. Not long ago, we didn't have a squad.

I would start Diallo, at least give him a go. He did cover back when he came on, at least give him some proper minutes. After all, we know what zero league goals and zero league assists Antony will deliver.

 

[Insanity]

If total control of transfers (a responsibility he's never had before) was a prerequisite for him to accept the job then the club should have sent him packing and moved onto the next shortlisted candidate.

However, given our track record, we probably didn't have another candidate lined up.

Additionally, for someone who apparently wanted total control of transfers (a responsibility he's never had before) as a condition of being our manager, he's seemed awfully willing to accept that control being taken away by INEOS.

This whole thing stems from one interview answer that can just as easily be interpreted as him wanting at least some say as he doesn't want random players thrust onto him out of nowhere (which is the far more reasonable and likely meaning behind his comments).

Yes, the club should have never agreed to indulge him to this limit. Anthony, Weghort, Malacia, Onana, Mount, Amrabat are all terrible signings. But that still doesn't discount the fact that they were the manager's hand-picked choices and show him in a really bad light. The club being incompetent doesn't absolve Ten Hag of the blame in demanding those signings. It brings into question his judgement and assessment of the challenge of the premier league.

This is a very convenient argument anyway. If the club didn't get the players he demanded, you'd have turned the argument and said he is failing because he didn't get the players he wanted.

Does he seem awfully willing? How did you come up with that? Because from everything I have read it seems like that he has still asked to keep his clause regarding transfers.

 

[bringbackbebe]

I would start Diallo, at least give him a go. He did cover back when he came on, at least give him some proper minutes. After all, we know what zero league goals and zero league assists Antony will deliver.

That reminds me of Rangnick days when Elanga was our beacon of hope! I hope we don't go back to playing 4-2-2-2.

 

[Baneofthegame]

Still don’t understand what our plan is in attack other than counters currently, in defence we don’t press well and leave huge gaps between midfield and defence which are exploited every game.

All ETH seems to spout about us the long term, but at this rate it will be 15 years, I understood the approach last year to get CL, but if we are finishing Europa or thereabouts I’d rather be playing some form of attractive football in doing so.

 

[Oranges038]

Didn’t Guus Hiddink set the goals record at Chelsea or was that Ancelotti?

Think it was Ancelotti in 09/10.

I'm not citing Ten Hag had equal experience to Arteta.
I'm saying Ten Hag was not an "finished article" coach and his experience in a traditional big league was effectively zero. I am also citing that Arteta had a ton of things his way by way of patience from the board/media and general structure to help him expedite the rise compared to Ten Hag (who by the way was much better than Arteta in year 1, and probably year 2). But no one really wants to put any weight on that.

I don't think anyone can come out with a serious face and say that operating under a CEO/DoF who don't know if they have a job the next month coupled with a structure that doesn't even have a proper scouting network is an environment of success for any coach.

Arsenal's biggest success has been putting Edu in place and shifting all the high paid under achievers out the door and replacing them with young hungry players.

Utd can't get rid of anybody that's not out of contract so it's impossible to replace them properly without getting their wages off the books as well.

 

[miliebrowndivorceattorney]

Are we still whining about Ajax and injuries. They play in one of the weakest league's in Europe and are a giant in a tiny pond, they have more resources than most of the rest of the league put together. ETH has sadly shown nothing this season, and I would argue for quite long periods last season. We are simply awful to watch, and cant do anything well. We dont defend well, we dont control the ball, and we cant create. We still have a team full of internationals, he plays the same formations with the same results every week. What expectations at the start 'were relegation'? The rubbish posted on here.

..and yet we, Ten Hag, still wins. Still has a very good win stat overall and very good one the last 2 months orso.

Winning games has to the number one stat a manager is judged one. The rest is all more or less subjective and some always find things they don't like. The line is too high or is too low. No midfield many said but even if the quality was lacking, last night we had a midfield. Antony doesn't perform and needs to be benched but when he does get benched, again its not good enough. We need to be more managing games and sit back, but where do you draw the line? 1 up? He will be called a coward. 2 up? Why didn't he use our superiority and give us 6 nil. Etc. etc.

I hadn't watched Ajax in years and years, until they started producing some amazing results under Ten Hag against really big and fantastic teams like Madrid away that nobody expected. Last december everyone thought Ten Hags last moments would come and we'd be torn apart by a one billion Chelsea squad managed by the God manager, the one time direct rival to Ten Hag Pochetino. Alas, we were the ones tearing Chelsea apart with some football I can watch day in and day out. 10 weeks later we are still 9 points ahead of Poch and his Chelsea btw. We are also 7 points ahead of wunderkind Howe and his magic band of Newcastle.

Speaking for myself, as long as Ten Hag produces wins he can stay. If he is on a string of losses like Tuchel, then I can see why a change is needed but even Tuchel gets to stay till the summer. Even if you want Ten Hag out and INEOS gives you that next week, you'd have to question their professionality given that at the moment, there isn't even a technical departmemt they trust to produce some names. The new CEO doesn't start untill summer. The new DoF is on gardening leave elsewhere and yet to even sign a contract with united.

As long as Ten Hag wins he can stay, and if gives me a nice display like at Chelsea every other week, with this squad, then its all fine by me. If you dont take the winning stat serious, then how serious are you is my question.

 

[Baneofthegame]

Yes, the club should have never agreed to indulge him to this limit. Anthony, Weghort, Malacia, Onana, Mount, Amrabat are all terrible signings. But that still doesn't discount the fact that they were the manager's hand-picked choices and show him in a really bad light. The club being incompetent doesn't absolve Ten Hag of the blame in demanding those signings. It brings into question his judgement and assessment of the challenge of the premier league.

This is a very convenient argument anyway. If the club didn't get the players he demanded, you'd have turned the argument and said he is failing because he didn't get the players he wanted.

Does he seem awfully willing? How did you come up with that? Because from everything I have read it seems like that he has still asked to keep his clause regarding transfers.

I’m slowly getting onboard that ETH probably has to go, but:

- Weghorst/Amrabat are loan signings and a lot of people felt Amrabat was what we needed next to Casemiro.

- Malacia was bought as a back up LB and was fine before his injury.

- Mount I didn’t want us to sign but has barely played, again due to injury.

- Onana confused why we bought him if not to play out from the back.

- Antony truly terrible signing.

 

[Berbaclass]

At this point they would do themselves a disservice by sacking him. But tbf who actually knows? I don’t know, it just doesn’t make sense for me.

I believe they got more than enough patience to wait for this season to end. Then they will have more key people in and can make some important decisions.

I don’t think it’s necessarily about patience. A well run club will have a succession plan in the event that they decide to go in a different direction. Berrarda and Ashworth obviously unofficially will no doubt have discussed this.

 

[Insanity]

I’m slowly getting onboard that ETH probably has to go, but:

- Weghorst/Amrabat are loan signings and a lot of people felt Amrabat was what we needed next to Casemiro.

- Malacia was bought as a back up LB and was fine before his injury.

- Mount I didn’t want us to sign but has barely played, again due to injury.

- Onana confused why we bought him if not to play out from the back.

- Antony truly terrible signing.

- You, me or anyone else can shout from the Redcafe rooftop for a signing, but we don't have to get it right. It's the recruitment team that has to get it right. So, it really doesn't matter what many people on here want or do not want. We paid Euro 10m for Amarbat's loan with the intention of making it permanent. That's a hefty price to pay for a player who is totally unsuited to the league. He is slow, he is cumbersome and he can only pass when he is not being pressured.

- I think Malacia is terrible and will be sold for 5m in this or the next summer window. Btw, where is he?

- The question I have on Mount is, was he needed? Was a central midfielder more our requirement or some sort of AM when "My Captain always plays" plays in the same position?

- The other two we agree on.

 

[Nogho]

..and yet we, Ten Hag, still wins. Still has a very good win stat overall and very good one the last 2 months orso.

Winning games has to the number one stat a manager is judged one. The rest is all more or less subjective and some always find things they dont like. The line is too high or is too low. No midfield many said but even if the quality was lacking, last night we had a midfield. Antony doenst perform and needs to be benched but when he does get benched, again its not good enough. We need to be more managing games and sit back, but where do you draw the line? 1 up? He will be called a coward. 2 up? Why didnt he use our superiority and give us 6 nil. Etc. etc.

I hadnt watched ajax in years and years, until they started producing some amazing results under Ten Hag against really big and fantastic teams like Madrid away that nobody expected. Last december everyone thought Ten Hags last moments would come and wed be torn apart by a one billion Chelsea squad managed by the God manager, the one time direct rival to Ten Hag Pochetino. Alas, we were the ones tearing Chelsea apart with some footbal I can watch day in and day out. 10 weeks later we are still 9 points ahead of Poch and his Chelsea btw. We are also 7 points ahead of wunderkind Howe and his magic band of Newcastle.

Speaking for myself, as long as Ten Hag produces wins he can stay. If he is on a string of losses like Tuchel, then I can see why a change is needed but even Tuchel gets to stay till the summer. Even if you want Ten Hag out and INEOS gives you that next week, youd have to question their professionality given that at the moment, there isnt even a technical departmemt they trust to produce some names. The new CEO doesnt start untill summer. The new DoF is on gardening leave elsewhere and yet to even sign a contract with united.

As long as Ten Hag wins he can stay, and if gives me a nice display like at Chelsea every other week, with this squad, then its all fine by me. If you dont take the winning stat serious, then how serious are you is my question.

I'm on board with all your points here, but there's a caveat. At times, one's dislike for a manager can stem from various facets—be it their presence, press conferences, the players they sign, or the statements they make. It's not always solely about the victories, not for everyone.

If I could have a manager who ticks all the boxes for me in those aspects you mentioned, and the results mirror our current sporting achievements, then, in my eyes, the situation could be different. It's just that I'm not fond of the man.

I understand that some supporters are solely focused on winning games, and I completely respect that perspective. However, for me, it goes beyond just winning. I've hardly missed a handful of United games since the early 1990s, and United means much more to me than mere results. I used to relish watching Sir Alex engaging in battles with Arsene or his candid outbursts during press conferences. I admired Mourinho, until I didn't. Yet, he had a captivating personality when expressing himself, bringing smiles and players like Zlatan who provided moments of magic.

EtH's "regime" seems to be built on rules and principles, and nothing more. His persona is more akin to a robot or a general than a football manager, and that's not my cup of tea.

 

[Alex99]

Yes, the club should have never agreed to indulge him to this limit. Anthony, Weghort, Malacia, Onana, Mount, Amrabat are all terrible signings. But that still doesn't discount the fact that they were the manager's hand-picked choices and show him in a really bad light. The club being incompetent doesn't absolve Ten Hag of the blame in demanding those signings. It brings into question his judgement and assessment of the challenge of the premier league.

This is a very convenient argument anyway. If the club didn't get the players he demanded, you'd have turned the argument and said he is failing because he didn't get the players he wanted.

Does he seem awfully willing? How did you come up with that? Because from everything I have read it seems like that he has still asked to keep his clause regarding transfers.

I think it's fine for him to be able to say he doesn't want a player recommended by the club.

I expect it's not as simple as him just saying "no, don't want him" and that he actually has to provide some justification, and I also expect that he can't simply sit there rejecting every suggestion until he gets his own way, because that'd be silly.

I've said you can judge, for example, Antony’s ineffectiveness, his tactical use of Casemiro, and Mount's suitability for the system, but I've also highlighted that these judgments still have to be heavily caveated.

You've fallen back to the same strawman your type always do. No, I wouldn't say he wasn't backed if we'd supported him properly with an actual transfer structure taking charge of that aspect, because that's exactly how I expect the club to be run.

Additionaly, if you think Weghorst was his first choice, and not the obvious short-term, emergency option we landed on precisely because of our shitshow of a transfer structure, then you're beyond help.

I don't even care for him staying, and think we're probably better off letting INEOS bring their own guy in when they've had time to properly settle and decide what direction they want to take us in. I'm not going to be sitting there wondering what Ten Hag would have done even if the next guy flops, because despite all of the extenuating circumstances, I think we've seen enough to suggest he's probably not the man to take us forward.

However, and I've said this up thread, it's extremely difficult to trust that you (and many others) won't be equally as toxic about the next guy in charge, when you're still making out that Weghorst was Ten Hag's ideal striker, because it seems abundantly clear that as soon as we hit a bump in the road, you're just going to find any old shit to fling at the next guy too, and will keep flinging that shit until he too, gets the boot.

 

[miliebrowndivorceattorney]

I'm on board with all your points here, but there's a caveat. At times, one's dislike for a manager can stem from various facets—be it their presence, press conferences, the players they sign, or the statements they make. It's not always solely about the victories, not for everyone.

If I could have a manager who ticks all the boxes for me in those aspects you mentioned, and the results mirror our current sporting achievements, then, in my eyes, the situation could be different. It's just that I'm not fond of the man.

I understand that some supporters are solely focused on winning games, and I completely respect that perspective. However, for me, it goes beyond just winning. I've hardly missed a handful of United games since the early 1990s, and United means much more to me than mere results. I used to relish watching Sir Alex engaging in battles with Arsene or his candid outbursts during press conferences. I admired Mourinho, until I didn't. Yet, he had a captivating personality when expressing himself, bringing smiles and players like Zlatan who provided moments of magic.

EtH's "regime" seems to be built on rules and principles, and nothing more. His persona is more akin to a robot or a general than a football manager, and that's not my cup of tea.

That I can understand. I do think you would do yourself a favor by giving EtH a bit more time there, to also adjust how England works as a social system, the mannerisms. He isn't a latino like Poch. Ten Hag comes from East of The Netherlands, not famed for being all open and super social (Hiddink might be an exception but even he was and is also kind of a muted personality).

And yet the man has charm, I think. He gave Sancho all the time he needed, went and looked and got him special, personalised coaches. Shielded him away 'no comment' early 23 when press asked after 3 months out of the squad. Famous is the instance he himself did a 12 mile run with his team after that Brighton loss. Then you see him dancing with Martinez and Antony after that Carabao cup. Stayed dignified even after Ronaldo detonated a few bombs in his face. In fact, Ten Hag publicly, hasn't slagged off any of his players that I can recall.

But then there is another ugly truth about this current United squad. Its a group that downs tools easely. There was no disipline. Many people said when Ten Hag came in: finally a man that stands up to discipline. Some players took it and started to perform, some didn't. The sometimes robot like Ten Hag is just what the doctor ordered to get the team together in my opinion.

Again speaking for myself, what I liked about his public appearance is his constantly repeated message that for United each and every game needs to be won. There has to be a winning display against all opponents. All teams must fear the fierceness. And that he is trying to implement.

But, for sure, I can see why his persona isn't everyone's cookie and that he can improve some aspects of presentation too. I hope, as long as he doesn't give us 3 or 4 big ugly losses in a row, he also gets time to learn that. He is only 52 (edit: he is 54, I stand corrected @stefan92 ) and quite young for a coach, and doesn't seem to be too big to admit mistakes. Have you ever heard a coach, a United coach, say that a critic sometimes has a point? That they have valuable feedback? And look how we all - me included - wrote off Casemiro for being stupid with the cards. Ten Hag defended him, saying referees are biased against him. Last nights no red card for that Bruno throat grab was a reminder for me how he has a point in that too.

For me, Ten Hag showed he isn't perfect, maybe needs to learn but maybe thats also why he is exactly what this group needs, as long as he produces wins with that gutted current squad.

 

[Chumpsbechumps]

I think it's fine for him to be able to say he doesn't want a player recommended by the club.

I expect it's not as simple as him just saying "no, don't want him" and that he actually has to provide some justification, and I also expect that he can't simply sit there rejecting every suggestion until he gets his own way, because that'd be silly.

I've said you can judge, for example, Antony’s ineffectiveness, his tactical use of Casemiro, and Mount's suitability for the system, but I've also highlighted that these judgments still have to be heavily caveated.

You've fallen back to the same strawman your type always do. No, I wouldn't say he wasn't backed if we'd supported him properly with an actual transfer structure taking charge of that aspect, because that's exactly how I expect the club to be run.

Additionaly, if you think Weghorst was his first choice, and not the obvious short-term, emergency option we landed on precisely because of our shitshow of a transfer structure, then you're beyond help.

I don't even care for him staying, and think we're probably better off letting INEOS bring their own guy in when they've had time to properly settle and decide what direction they want to take us in. I'm not going to be sitting there wondering what Ten Hag would have done even if the next guy flops, because despite all of the extenuating circumstances, I think we've seen enough to suggest he's probably not the man to take us forward.

However, and I've said this up thread, it's extremely difficult to trust that you (and many others) won't be equally as toxic about the next guy in charge, when you're still making out that Weghorst was Ten Hag's ideal striker, because it seems abundantly clear that as soon as we hit a bump in the road, you're just going to find any old shit to fling at the next guy too, and will keep flinging that shit until he too, gets the boot.

That I can understand. I do think you should give EtH a bit more time there, to also adjust how England works as a social system. He isn't a latino like Poch.

And yet the man has charm, I think. He gave Sancho all the time he needed, went and looked and got him special, personalised coaches. Shielded him away. Famous is the instance he himself did a 12 mile run with his team afer that Brighton loss. Then you see him dancing with Martinez and Antony after that Carabao cup.

But then there is another ugly truth about this current United squad. Its a group that downs tools easely. There was no disipline. Many people said when Ten Hag came in: finally a man that stands up to discipline. Some took it and started to perform, some didn't. The sometimes robot like Ten Hag is just what the doctor ordered to get the team together in my opinion.

Again speaking for myself, what I liked about his public appearance is his constantly repeated message that United each and every game needs to be won. There has to be a winning display against all opponents. All teams must fear the fierceness. And that he is trying to implement.

But, for sure, I can see why his persona isn't everyone's cookie and that he can improve some aspects of presentation too. I hope, as long as he doesn't give us 3 or 4 big ugly losses in a row, he also gets time to learn that. He is only 52 and quite young for a coach, and doesn't seem to be too big to admit mistakes. Have you ever heard a coach, a United coach, say that a critic sometimes has a point? That they have valuably feedback? And look how we all - me included - wrote off Casemiro for being stupid with the cards. Ten Hag defended him, saying referees are biased against him. Last nights no red card for that Bruno throat grab was a reminder for me how he has a point in that too.

For me, Ten Hag showed he isn't perfect, maybe needs to learn but maybe thats also why he is exactly what this group needs, as long as he produces wins with that gutted current squad.

Excellent posts

 

[Nogho]

That I can understand. I do think you should give EtH a bit more time there, to also adjust how England works as a social system. He isn't a latino like Poch.

And yet the man has charm, I think. He gave Sancho all the time he needed, went and looked and got him special, personalised coaches. Shielded him away. Famous is the instance he himself did a 12 mile run with his team afer that Brighton loss. Then you see him dancing with Martinez and Antony after that Carabao cup.

But then there is another ugly truth about this current United squad. Its a group that downs tools easely. There was no disipline. Many people said when Ten Hag came in: finally a man that stands up to discipline. Some took it and started to perform, some didn't. The sometimes robot like Ten Hag is just what the doctor ordered to get the team together in my opinion.

Again speaking for myself, what I liked about his public appearance is his constantly repeated message that United each and every game needs to be won. There has to be a winning display against all opponents. All teams must fear the fierceness. And that he is trying to implement.

But, for sure, I can see why his persona isn't everyone's cookie and that he can improve some aspects of presentation too. I hope, as long as he doesn't give us 3 or 4 big ugly losses in a row, he also gets time to learn that. He is only 52 and quite young for a coach, and doesn't seem to be too big to admit mistakes. Have you ever heard a coach, a United coach, say that a critic sometimes has a point? That they have valuably feedback? And look how we all - me included - wrote off Casemiro for being stupid with the cards. Ten Hag defended him, saying referees are biased against him. Last nights no red card for that Bruno throat grab was a reminder for me how he has a point in that too.

For me, Ten Hag showed he isn't perfect, maybe needs to learn but maybe thats also why he is exactly what this group needs, as long as he produces wins with that gutted current squad.

Indeed, everyone possesses flaws, even a manager operating at this level. I do find myself in agreement with some of the choices he has made. However, there's a certain element about him that needs adjusting for me to be fully supportive. I believe a smile now and then, and perhaps some other gestures that reveal his personality, could make a significant difference. It's challenging to warm up to someone who comes across as a robotic figure with a string of excuses, at least in my view. This sentiment wouldn't change even if we were leading the table, although I suppose it might have been easier to accept

 

[andypaps28]

I think it's fine for him to be able to say he doesn't want a player recommended by the club.

I expect it's not as simple as him just saying "no, don't want him" and that he actually has to provide some justification, and I also expect that he can't simply sit there rejecting every suggestion until he gets his own way, because that'd be silly.

I've said you can judge, for example, Antony’s ineffectiveness, his tactical use of Casemiro, and Mount's suitability for the system, but I've also highlighted that these judgments still have to be heavily caveated.

You've fallen back to the same strawman your type always do. No, I wouldn't say he wasn't backed if we'd supported him properly with an actual transfer structure taking charge of that aspect, because that's exactly how I expect the club to be run.

Additionaly, if you think Weghorst was his first choice, and not the obvious short-term, emergency option we landed on precisely because of our shitshow of a transfer structure, then you're beyond help.

I don't even care for him staying, and think we're probably better off letting INEOS bring their own guy in when they've had time to properly settle and decide what direction they want to take us in. I'm not going to be sitting there wondering what Ten Hag would have done even if the next guy flops, because despite all of the extenuating circumstances, I think we've seen enough to suggest he's probably not the man to take us forward.

However, and I've said this up thread, it's extremely difficult to trust that you (and many others) won't be equally as toxic about the next guy in charge, when you're still making out that Weghorst was Ten Hag's ideal striker, because it seems abundantly clear that as soon as we hit a bump in the road, you're just going to find any old shit to fling at the next guy too, and will keep flinging that shit until he too, gets the boot.

ETH can't see the wood for the trees. Some things are just so obvious that he is just blind to them. I was a big supporter of his when he first arrived but his incompetence and ability not to adjust has lost me. He post match comments are becoming more and more delusional. If he is not sacked at the end of the season then Ratcliffe & Co. are clearly more clueless than I already think they are. ETH deserves sacking for the following:

1. Playing Antony so for so long when it was clear to anyone watching him he is a one trick pony that will never be suited to a top 10 Premiership team
2. Letting the board pay £80m or so for him.
3. Playing Martial (when fit). Thank god he is injured otherwise he would still be playing. ETH doesn't have a clue that some players excel in training but bottle it when it comes to opposition players because he isn't protected like in training. The whole Dan Gore / Martial fiasco in training just emphaises my point.
4. Playing Weghorst when McTominay would have done a better job as a striker.
5. Playing Rashford out of position as a striker when his best position is on the left side cutting in. e.g against Fulham, he should have played left , Garnacho right , and Forson through the middle. Imagine playing 2 out of your 3 strikers out of position when a 5 year old can see how the team should have started. My all means change it in-game but that schoolboy error is unexcusable.
6. Onana cost us £42m and another £25m as it was 100% his fault we finished bottom of Champions league. Our reserve Turkish goalkeeper is actually better - not with his feet but at what goal keepers are meant to do , save shots and give confidenece to the defence. ETH should have never been so loyal to Onana.
7. Playing two wingers out on the touch line that are clearly instructed to never drop in. Fergie could do it as we had a solid midfield and defenders, and forwards who were wolrd class so we could actually outscore teams if it became a ding-dong. Our present calibre of players mean we have gapping holes in the middle of the park.
8. His inconsistent treatment of players when disciplining, his favourites being played at all costs and his alienation of the squad and team atmosphere is another drawback.
9. Delsusional after match interviews saying we should have beaten teams when clearly we were second best in all areas. He really does treat the fans as mugs and assumes they are all schoolkids who can't think for themselves.
10 . Going defensive in games when having a slender lead and playing to invite pressure for the last 10 mins or so. How many games have we conceded with these tactics. He doesn't realise that defensively we are too poor to have this as a plan B.

I've got anothe 5 or so points but you get the gist ...

 

[ForeverRed1]

So it’ll be City, Everton, Liverpool in the cup then the international break.

ominous

Sounds like a manager in a job defining moment to me…

 

[Chumpsbechumps]

Indeed, everyone possesses flaws, even a manager operating at this level. I do find myself in agreement with some of the choices he has made. However, there's a certain element about him that needs adjusting for me to be fully supportive. I believe a smile now and then, and perhaps some other gestures that reveal his personality, could make a significant difference. It's challenging to warm up to someone who comes across as a robotic figure with a string of excuses, at least in my view. This sentiment wouldn't change even if we were leading the table, although I suppose it might have been easier to accept

There is alot of truth in perception of a person. A Terry Venables and Bobby Robson or even Kevin Keegan type of character is easier to root for.

Even in business I find it easier with clients who enjoy a good chat and a bit of a laugh.

ETH is probably under immense pressure , I think people forget that when they talk about him as if his job is to train the team and he goes home to relax until the next day. He’s also quite serious so it’s hard to get an actual read on what he’s like as a person.

But I dont see a team that’s not trying for him, I see a team struggling for all kinds of reasons. I do think there’s things he might of done better but I believe that there’s been so much going wrong his margins for Error are non existent.

 

[Zed 101]

After looking on par with a Forrest side last night we go into the weekend with very few people optimistic of getting a result against City, it seems that most people would be happy to just not be embarrassed.

In terms of performance, style and quality I would say we are further away from the top 4 this season than we have been at any time since Moyes was in charge.

Time may prove me wrong, I sincerely hope it does, but ETH looks like a very limited manager, who will do well in certain leagues but who has little capability to adapt and grow.

We are talking about putting a structure in place whereby players like Antony, Mount, Sancho etc... who do not belong at the club are a thing of the past, fingers crossed this will be the case, but seriously how bad is it that we have a manager who nobody trusts to be able to judge which players they need, ETH is not an elite level manager and never will be.

 

[Chumpsbechumps]

Sounds like a manager in a job defining moment to me…

I can’t remember anytime in the last 11 years where playing city and pool close together would be anything but daunting.

 

[ForeverRed1]

I can’t remember anytime in the last 11 years where playing city and pool close together would be anything but daunting.

It is for sure but my point is if we get absolutely smashed in both games (very possible) then he’s going to be under some real pressure. I’m firmly in the stick by him camp but seem to be a minority.