Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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We look so toothless, slow, no ideas going one way and open as feck going the other way. What is going on!?
 
Stobzilla said:
I would rather have Potter at this stage.

ten Hag will undoubtedly get lucky against Forest and then draw Coventry at home in the quarters of the FA Cup though so he'll probably muck through on the strength of a cup run.
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De Zerbi over Potter everyday of the week
 
Alex99 said:
You're missing the point.

With the possible exceptions of Klopp and Guardiola, who have been successfully in post for ages now, managers shouldn't be in a position to request specific individuals, and especially not in their first season or two at the helm.

To use your example of Antony, the brief from Ten Hag shouldn't be (or shouldn't have been allowed to be) "I want Antony", it should have been "I need a right-winger with that can do this, this and this." The scouting team and recruitment analysts should then take that and come back with a list of players that, to varying degrees, match that brief, and have them easily categorised based on how suitable they are and how obtainable they are. From there, you draw up a shortlist, and if you can't get your top target (either because their club won't listen to offers, they aren't interested in the move, or the price is too high), you have a second option to quickly move onto, and so on.

It's quite obvious that we haven't done this for Ten Hag. Even with Antony, we asked at the beginning of the window, got quoted something like £50 million so walked away, only to find ourselves without an alternative at the end of the window so paid an even dafter fee, because the other option was having no one. Similarly, Casemiro was signed because we'd apparently only managed to identify Frenkie de Jong for that role and he was basically the most obviously available alternative.

Even with this, it was never in Ten Hag's control to decide what the max bid was, and it's not in his control how the budget is allocated (or at least not to any meaningful degree). He'll have sat down with Murtough and whoever else and planned the window's transfer strategy, which positions were a priority, etc., and then basically had to sit back while Arnold and whoever else went off to negotiate deals. If he says "ooh, that's a bit pricey" when told what we've managed to negotiate for Hojlund, as an example, and we pull out of the deal to try and keep some budget for a central defender, he's running the risk of us ending up with a Weghorst-type loan deal for a striker and still only getting Jonny Evans on a free for his back line.

No one's bending the truth when explaining that it's absolutely mental for a club of our standing to have seemingly had the manager (and a new one at that) dictate transfers to the extent Ten Hag (and Solskjaer, and Mourinho, and van Gaal, and Moyes) has had to.

Again, there's enough ammo to criticise him for "what he serves up on the pitch" without getting wound up about things that shouldn't even be his responsibility (or at least nowhere to the extent they seem to be).

If Liverpool replace Klopp (who infamously wanted Brandt instead of Salah) and let the new guy spend £400 million on a bunch of players he's picked himself, then of course we'd laugh at them, because it's the exact clown show we've been running for ten years.
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Another 200 plus words looking to absolve the manager of all blame for the quality of the players he evidently thought he could mould into a system and a succesful team.

Every sane fan recognises that pre-takeover the club was run shambolically. Should they have brought in an untested foreign manager and backed him like they did and given him control of transfers? Should they have gone all in on the players he wanted? Of course not. They should have had a DoF or similar, like all well ran clubs. That's not in dispute.

But how does that absolve him of total blame if those players are as far off the quality required as they appear to be? Does it not suggest he's vastly over-estimated those players, or underestimated the quality of the league he's coming to (and by this summer had been in for a year), or overestimate his own ability to get the collection of players, playing the way he wants? None of that reflects well on his ability as a coach - and that's what this is about.

Antony, whether at £80 million or £8 million isn't good enough. We've lacked legs in midfield and Amrabat isn't anywhere near good enough either, whilst Mount - who was always going to cost decent money from Chelsea, looks very much like a luxury alternative to Fernandes yet was the first through the door. But for Mainoo we'd be much worse off - so fair play for throwing him in. If Amrabat was the best he could do, why not can the Mount deal and get a quality holding midfield player in first, if he does have a transfer veto?

Putting all that aside, the question should be whether this manager, on the body of evidence we've seen so far has the ability to take this club forward. Over and above transfers - i.e. his decision making in game, the way he sets us up, the chances we concede (in my view, damning stats in the thread above which even I was surprised at) - what suggests that he's good enough to manage one of the biggest clubs in the world?

I've posed that question to various people on here and never had a straight answer. I am far from any sort of expert in football - so what am I missing?
 
So it’ll be City, Everton, Liverpool in the cup then the international break.

ominous
 
Desert Eagle said:
If he has any sense he should complain like crazy that Felipe should have gotten a red
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If he does, youll get the Athletic criticising him for it. There's already an article saying he's cracking for going out swinging against the press for criticism.
 
No way INEOS can sit through that and be happy with how utd play football.

Listen i'm happy with win and in to next round but its painful to watch.
 
7 wins out of the last 9 games. The Zidane fans better keep waiting a bit longer. I dont see INEOS kicking Ten Hag out as long as he produces wins, ugly but without a host of players. City a write off. Then the break. Well done Erik for now.
 
Someone said:
I think he'll be gone next week.
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he will be here until the end of the season

no point in changing now.

I still want to see him get a chance under a proper structure next season but I know I’m in minority on here
 
Sarni said:
He won’t be gone next week, next month and not until deep into next season at very least.
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I don't know. I think they need to make a decision by mid-March at the absolute latest to plan next season.

It's really in the balance.
 
Berbaclass said:
I don't know. I think they need to make a decision by mid-March at the absolute latest to plan next season.

It's really in the balance.
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He will get his extension soon. Probably two extra years with some assurances from the board that he’s safe and trusted.
 
RedRover said:
Another 200 plus words looking to absolve the manager of all blame for quality of the players he evidently thought he could mould into a system.

Every sane fan recognises that pre-takeover the club was run shambolically. Should they have brought in an untested foreign manager and backed him like they did and given him control of transfers? Should they have gone all in on the players he wanted? Of course not.

But how does that absolve him of total blame if those players are as far off the quality required as they appear to be? Does it not suggest he's vastly over-estimated those players, or underestimated the quality of the league he's coming to (and by this summer had been in for a year), or overestimate his own ability to get the collection of players, playing the way he wants? None of that reflects well on his ability as a coach - and that's what this is about.

Antony, whether at £80 million or £8 million isn't good enough. We've lacked legs in midfield and Amrabat isn't anywhere near good enough either, whilst Mount - who was always going to cost decent money from Chelsea, looks very much like a luxury alternative to Fernandes yet was the first through the door. But for Mainoo we'd be much worse off - so fair play for throwing him in.

Putting all that aside, the question should be whether this manager, on the body of evidence we've seen so far has the ability to take this club forward. Over and above transfers - i.e. his decision making in game, the way he sets us up, the chances we concede (in my view, damning stats in the thread above which even I was surprised at) - what suggests that he's good enough to manage one of the biggest clubs in the world?

I've posed that question to various people on here and never had a straight answer. I am far from an expert in football - so what am I missing?
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What are you missing? Basic reading comprehension by the looks of it. I'm not "looking to absolve the manager of all blame for quality of the players" he's brought in, and it's mad that you've somehow got that idea. I'm simply looking to provide the much needed context to whatever criticisms people want to make about those players.

Your stuff about whether he's the man to take us forward is completely irrelevant to this specific discussion, but again, you're clearly lacking comprehension if you can't see that there aren't many people (myself included) that are more than happy for him to get the boot, whether that's soon or at the end of the season. However, the reason they're happy for that to happen has nothing to do with his shit transfer record (which was the topic of discussion here, and that shouldn't have been his responsibility anyway), and a lot more to do with the other points you've raised. Points that are often ignored in favour of wailing incessantly about him signing Antony and Weghorst.

I'm actually more than happy to criticise Ten Hag for how little he's managed to get out of Antony, especially given that they'd worked together before. Similarly, I'm happy to criticise him for how often he expects Casemiro to cover half the pitch on his own, and even for how Mount appears completely unsuited for the role we apparently bought him to fill, even if we've not seen that much of him. Importantly, these critcisms can't be made without the caveat of how these players came to the club though, and that's a massive fecking caveat.

I'm not sure if you did and I can't be arsed going back to check, but people keep banging on about transfer fees, as if this is Football Manager and Ten Hag's the one sitting down negotiating these deals himself. The money spent has nothing to do with him whatsoever, even if some of the players were his recommendations. Simply put, the club shouldn't be giving him first choice of his own targets anyway, and even if they are, they certainly shouldn't be paying well over the odds for them, just because he wants them. Again, I don't care if he's sacked tonight (even though we won), but it's very hard to trust that the people who desperately want him gone now won't be equally as toxic with whoever replaces him, when they're constantly using stuff that's got feck all to do with him as a stick to beat him with.
 
Reditus said:
he will be here until the end of the season

no point in changing now.

I still want to see him get a chance under a proper structure next season but I know I’m in minority on here
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I am with you. Will be very interesting to see him under a proper structure.
 
Someone said:
I think he'll be gone next week.
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That would be utter madness from INEOS. Even if they want to change next week, who is going to take over? And why would they if he keeps producing wins?

Wich of the current technical board - the outgoing, is going to advice a new manager? Then sack that guy when new CEO, technical director is in and outlined a new approach?

It does not make sense at all to sack Ten Hag now.
 
mu4c_20le said:
Oh so now you care about xG
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Sounds like he's pre-empting the moans. We had more possession and more XG got a clean sheet and won the game, but it didn't stop the whingers from coming out :lol:
 
miliebrowndivorceattorney said:
That would be utter madness from INEOS. Even if they want to change next week, who is going to take over? And why would they if he keeps producing wins?

Wich of the current technical board - the outgoing, is going to advice a new manager? Then sack that guy when new CEO, technical director is in and outlined a new approach?

It does not make sense at all to sack Ten Hag now.
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Berrarda and Ashworth will decide if it happened.
 
It was a better performance than Luton or Fulham. Not saying much as those two were horrid, but we had more control today. I expected us to get beaten and we edged it so happy overall.

Liverpool will be a good test. Win that and he will alter the outlook of this season significantly. Lose and it will be even more depressing.
 
VP89 said:
Sounds like he's pre-empting the moans. We had more possession and more XG got a clean sheet and won the game, but it didn't stop the whingers from coming out :lol:
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Were you happy with how we played or feel entertained or did it just feel like a drag?
 
I thought he made some decent tweaks to the shape today, fullbacks a touch lower and midfield had more bodies. I’d have liked to see him trust a couple of the kids he had on the bench, just to gamble on them having a good impact.
 
Zlatan 7 said:
Were you happy with how we played or feel entertained or did it just feel like a drag?
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I was fine with it honestly. 60+% possession, 3x more XG, clean sheet. I thought we were well structured and worked hard - but yes, there was no cutting edge from Rashford/Garnacho (I think Antony did better than the pair of them). That being said, with no actual left back, Licha out, Mainoo benched and Hojlund injured I wasn't expecting squashbuckling football away from home to a defensive Nuno side.

I feel like this is a good example of just whinging for the sake of it. If Ten Hag dares to be open and progressive there's bitching about how we invite too many chances and we aren't solid enough. If we're solid and structured, there's bitching about how its boring to watch.
 
VP89 said:
I was fine with it honestly. 60+% possession, 3x more XG, clean sheet. I thought we were well structured and worked hard - but yes, there was no cutting edge from Rashford/Garnacho (I think Antony did better than the pair of them). That being said, with no actual left back, Licha out, Mainoo benched and Hojlund injured I wasn't expecting squashbuckling football away from home to a defensive Nuno side.

I feel like this is a good example of just whinging for the sake of it. If Ten Hag dares to be open and progressive there's bitching about how we invite too many chances and we aren't solid enough. If we're solid and structured, there's bitching about how its boring to watch.
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Bitching? Or just unhappiness. The game bored the life out of me to be honest. Both teams as bad as each other. Forest had chances when they just run through us but had no quality up top, we made some chances in the first ten minutes and then nothing all game. It was just a match of nothingness between two awful teams. That’s not bitching but just expecting a little more, just some spark or directness or I don’t know what, but it’s just flat and crap. And not just tonight but weekly.
 
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