Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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I won’t derail this further but you’d expect the better managers to be more able to get their ideas across in empty stadiums, without the emotion of some of the intense atmospheres. If our players were less able to cope once stadiums came back, then that would suggest that’s on them not being strong enough, rather than a tactics issue by the manager. Anyway, I agree Ole ultimately wasn’t good enough but he’s the only manager to me who has brought any real joy in watching the team in our style of play over the past 10 years, so I’m going to defend him against accusations he was our worst manager.

As for EtH, it’s going to be depressing if he can’t somehow turn this around, as I genuinely thought we were going somewhere last season. He just seems to have completely lost it tactically this year.
Again, we underperformed our XG for most of the empty stadium season. It was never going to be sustainable.
And for me, I was far more thrilled under Ten Hag last year because we had a resilience and build up about us. We dipped for prolonged periods in performance but we had around 5 months of really good form. And he won a cup, which Ole never did in 3.5 years.

Anyway, regardless of who we think was playing better football, I think the end will only be near for Ten Hag when his own senior, key players openly question him. Like DDG did with Ole when he said we don't know what to do on the ball.
 
The only managers I don’t think fans wanted was Moyes and can’t remember hearing much about LVG. Pretty sure everyone wanted Mourinho as they thought he could challenge with pep. The Rangnick caretaker route wass another. Think the fans was split on the Ole decision.

I remember a lot of people not wanting Mourinho anywhere close to the club. LVG was like a signing that people agreed afterwards was maybe going to be interesting, though almost anyone with pedigree at that point was going to be relatively welcomed having endured the Moyes season. And the Rangnick caretaker route was not what it was supposed to be, he ended up being only an interim, his two main coaches left immediately and he was scraping the barrel to find enough numbers for the coaching staff, got no signings in January and lost his most talented player at the end of the window, and the job he was mainly supposed to do was scrapped. So not at all what those of us clamouring for him to do here were hoping for.

And even with Erik, there were quite a few that wanted Poch, no? And some even wanted Rodgers (albeit a small minority). I was delighted when we appointed him but my first choice at the time was Luis Enrique, which was unrealistic back then.
 
I remember most of our fans wanted Rangnick as Caretaker and then ETH/pochettino in the summer. The club did what was wanted but as usual the fans choice failed. Can’t remember the route after Mourinho.
Ironically, we didn't really follow that through did we. We missed the most crucial bit where Rangnick stays on as a DoF instead of a guy who gets his transfer targets from ten Hag's Whatsapp group. That would have prevented us on waisting 400M on absolute dross that sets us back years now.
Instead, he said "this squad is a farce and you need to brace yourselves for the drastic changes that are needed", so they panicked and fecked him off. Brilliant.
 
I'm convinced anyone still thinking he's the right man is a massive wum.

How can anyone be a United fan and still think this manager is good enough?

Our GD is -3 after 16 games. -3 and we've only scored 18 league goals.
 
It is the inconsistency that kills you as a fan.

At the beginning of the week I had no hope for winning Chelsea, Bayern and Liverpool in the next two weeks, we could win Bournemouth though. I was only questioning what would happen with Ten Hag if he lost those three games.

After Chelsea I thought this is good, maybe there’s hope and we are going in the right direction. If we beat Bournemouth maybe we go to the Bayern and Liverpool games in good spirits.

After Bournemouth I’m only thinking how long can we keep going with these inconsistencies. Yes some players are still crap and still here after too many years. But why can’t Ten Hag just set his team up a bit better as a unit, this is just crap. So it’s him as well. How long can he stay.

But maybe after a great Bayern game we’re hopeful again, and then lose 5-0 to Liverpool to crush any hopes.

We’re not a healthy team, mentally and physically. We look manic depressed or something, sometimes very high and sometimes very low. There’s no middle ground, hence we never draw in the league but only win or lose.
 
Ironically, we didn't really follow that through did we. We missed the most crucial bit where Rangnick stays on as a DoF instead of a guy who gets his transfer targets from ten Hag's Whatsapp group. That would have prevented us on waisting 400M on absolute dross that sets us back years now.
Instead, he said "this squad is a farce and you need to brace yourselves for the drastic changes that are needed", so they panicked and fecked him off. Brilliant.
Agreed. The consensus here at the time was that it was a bit strange to have him coach the team after being out of the coaching game for so long, but we were all excited for his consultancy period where we'd be able to leverage his experience as a club builder to fix the underlying issues with our structure.
 
It is the inconsistency that kills you as a fan.

At the beginning of the week I had no hope for winning Chelsea, Bayern and Liverpool in the next two weeks, we could win Bournemouth though. I was only questioning what would happen with Ten Hag if he lost those three games.

After Chelsea I thought this is good, maybe there’s hope and we are going in the right direction. If we beat Bournemouth maybe we go to the Bayern and Liverpool games in good spirits.

After Bournemouth I’m only thinking how long can we keep going with these inconsistencies. Yes some players are still crap and still here after too many years. But why can’t Ten Hag just set his team up a bit better as a unit, this is just crap. So it’s him as well. How long can he stay.

But maybe after a great Bayern game we’re hopeful again, and then lose 5-0 to Liverpool to crush any hopes.

We’re not a healthy team, mentally and physically. We look manic depressed or something, sometimes very high and sometimes very low. There’s no middle ground, hence we never draw in the league but only win or lose.
I would actually argue we are one of the most consistent teams in the league. Consistantly shit that is.
Today's game could have very easily been the Wolves game on the opening day that we, absolutely, should not have won. Or the Brentford game that we absolutely should not have won. Sheffield Utd and Luton, two of the worst teams you'll see around and we made an absolute hard watch out of it. A real struggle. In fact, we haven't had a single genuinely good performance bar the Chelsea game, that's why it was such of a big shock to the system when that happened. But who cares anyway, it was all undone in the space of 72 hours.
 
Why some react to this like they were in coma last X years. There is no moving forward until our wage bill matches our current performance and for that we need a total clean up ,all of them in one go, not in few summers. We give mental wages on top of paying mental money for transfers, not able to pre hunt free agents and we get feck all in return, they getting picked week in and week out and then we go full gold fish mode calling it worst time as United fan, no its not, it just feels like that because we are poking same wound since SAF.

Not to mention whole structure or lack of in United corporation FC. Always said, ETH due his decisions will pay the price and deservedly so.
 
I've yet to see anyone actually argue that Ten Hag should get three years and hundreds of millions, but plenty that wanted him out two games into the season just pretended that's what was being argued when anyone expressed some sympathy for the situation and didn't call for his immediate firing. I agree, a proper structure stops those transfers and possibly even identifies a different manager entirely.

Tactics are an issue, as is game management, as is our blunt attack (although that can probably be included with tactics).

However, I'm not going to get too hung up on one freak result, or him falling out with a petulant idiot like Sancho who has barely ever performed for the club, and has a history of acting the cnut. Nor do I care too much about the rumours of a falling out with Varane, who is regularly injured, has been shite when he's played, and has apparently been eyeing up a move to Saudi since he was dropped.

The coaching thing is something I don't believe to be a fair criticism. People expect too much improvement from players who simply aren't good enough. Dalot and AWB, while still ineffective, have looked better for ETH than previous managers, Lindelof has arguably been steadier, and Ten Hag has managed to get Maguire and McTominay performing, despite their obvious shortcomings and obvious unsuitability to his system (however flawed that system may be).

People bring up Klopp and Liverpool, like they weren't still shite the season he joined, and not too hot until a few seasons after when they'd replaced half the squad and spent record fees on a goalkeeper and defender. People also like to bring up Newcastle, ignoring the massive amounts they've spent signing a whole starting line up of new senior players, and as if the "improved" players aren't the first ones used as excuses when Newcastle lose.

The ineffectiveness of the likes of Antony and now Hojlund are bigger concerns than average players that he inherited remaining average players, and that's more of a transfer issue than a coaching one, because you can at least see that they're doing what's asked of them (aside from scoring and creating goals).

He'd have probably had more success if we'd had a proper structure, although a club with a proper structure probably avoids hiring any of his predecessors, and of course, doesn't just sign the first player the manager names, for a daft fee, when looking at transfer targets.

There's probably not many that would be against firing him now, and even fewer if we lose to Liverpool next weekend.
The players are plenty good enough to be playing better than what we are.
you look at villa heading for relegation with Stevie me and the turn around a decent coach can make.

blaming the players not being good enough is absolutely no excuse to the performances we’ve been seeing
 
It's the manager. This squad is substantially different to the one even Ole had - people seem to be under the impression this is the same team Moyes had or something
I find it baffling how many posts I see saying something along the lines of I’m sick of these players they down tools on every manger, as if it’s the same team since moyes and van gaal were here. There’s a few hanging around so I assume they mean shaw and rashford have downed tools.
 
The football under Ole was miles better than this trash. His two full seasons were fun to watch (, with some real firepower upfront and some excellent performances. How anyone could think that’s the worst football we’ve played in the last 10 years is beyond me.

Did he have the best tactical acumen? No, of course not. However, he implemented a style that the players understood and made us a team who others feared playing again. It all went wrong in his last season but I enjoyed his time in charge up to then.

100% this.

it's crazy people think otherwise
 
The players are plenty good enough to be playing better than what we are.
you look at villa heading for relegation with Stevie me and the turn around a decent coach can make.

blaming the players not being good enough is absolutely no excuse to the performances we’ve been seeing

I don't disagree, we saw as much last season.

The point about the players is in relation to the idea that we regularly see dramatic improvements. We don't.
 
He has actually managed to makes us worse at playing out from the back making us very vulnerable to a good high press, and alot worse at breaking down low blocks something alot thought ole was bad at, turns out that is nothing In comparison to a ETH side.

The only improvement is in our own press, which at times is quite good but it's not enough in the PL to just rely on a press because most teams have good plans to deal with a high press, you need more than that and I don't think ETH has an awful lot more to give other than a a pretty good high press. Our attacking plans seem to revolve around a loose ball making it's way to Mctominay to strike home. 400 million and 18 months of 'coaching' an that's our plan to break down Bournemouth at home. Its frankly laughable.
 
I'm convinced anyone still thinking he's the right man is a massive wum.

How can anyone be a United fan and still think this manager is good enough?

Our GD is -3 after 16 games. -3 and we've only scored 18 league goals.

This. How the feck can anyone defend this shit?
 
100% this.

it's crazy people think otherwise

Ole should have stuck to his preferred defensive counter attack football. We weren’t winning trophies but the results were better in his first 2 seasonsAt least we had surprisingly good results against Man City and set a new unbeaten away record.
 
The players are plenty good enough to be playing better than what we are.
you look at villa heading for relegation with Stevie me and the turn around a decent coach can make.

blaming the players not being good enough is absolutely no excuse to the performances we’ve been seeing

I agree. There was an interview Rio did with Ange Postecoglou a few weeks back.

He basically said that all top level pro‘s in a league are excellent players, but they need to have the right attitude and instruction to come together as a team. This is why, as you say, you see manager like Emery come in a turn around Villa with the same team.
 
I'm convinced anyone still thinking he's the right man is a massive wum.

How can anyone be a United fan and still think this manager is good enough?

Our GD is -3 after 16 games. -3 and we've only scored 18 league goals.

We finished on +15 last year. 30 goals behind Arsenal, 46 behind City, 20 behind Newcastle, 14 behind Liverpool and 4 behind Brighton. Yet, people still want to say we had a fantastic first season under Ten Hag.

We have conceded 3 or more in 9 of our games this season.
 
He’s a terrible manager. I have friends that support Liverpool, Arsenal and City that desperately want him to stay on. That says it all really.
 
I dont know what kind of coaching is being offered. Dalot is shooting instead of crossing, most players keep making braindead decisions.

But I guess a structure and owners can change that.
The decision making on field, in the moment, is down to the quality of the individuals. An obvious example is attackers not seeing the best ball or shooting when they should pass. These wrong decisions are not being coached. The right decisions are being coached but the players are not good enough to consistently implement what they are being instructed to do.

Stating the obvious here but you can’t coach Bebe to be Giggs or Cleverley to be Scholes even though they were at the same club and had the same manager.

With drilling and experience, Dalot, and the rest of them will start to make more good decisions but most of them are fundamentally below the calibre required and you just can’t blame that on coaching.

EtH makes loads of mistakes I’m sure but a lot of what the players do is just down to their ability.
 
I saw a stat a few days ago that we conceded 106 shots in total against Newcastle, Galatasaray, Everton, Fulham, Copenhagen & Luton Town. So this was before the Chelsea game where we conceded 13, and the Bournemouth game where we conceded 10, taking us up to 129.

It beggars belief that he won't change our setup to be more compact defensively. This was never going to be sustainable in the slightest.
 
Again, we underperformed our XG for most of the empty stadium season. It was never going to be sustainable.
And for me, I was far more thrilled under Ten Hag last year because we had a resilience and build up about us. We dipped for prolonged periods in performance but we had around 5 months of really good form. And he won a cup, which Ole never did in 3.5 years.

Anyway, regardless of who we think was playing better football, I think the end will only be near for Ten Hag when his own senior, key players openly question him. Like DDG did with Ole when he said we don't know what to do on the ball.
That’s because Ole never had such luck in draws. There’s zero chance ETH is winning the cup if he had to beat City or any other semi decent team before final.

On the other hand, I reckon Ole would have likely very easily won us that League Cup with the same draw as he tended to dispose of lesser teams in cup competitions with relative ease.
 
Scariest thing to me is how we've just held 0-3 at home to Bournemouth and it seems almost normalised. These are all under this guy:

0-3 Bournemouth
0-3 Newcastle
0-3 Manchester City
1-3 Brighton
3-1 Arsenal
3-0 Sevilla
7-0 Liverpool
3-1 Villa
6-3 Manchester City
4-0 Brentford

Manchester United, you know.
 
Scariest thing to me is how we've just held 0-3 at home to Bournemouth and it seems almost normalised. These are all under this guy:

0-3 Bournemouth
0-3 Newcastle
0-3 Manchester City
1-3 Brighton
3-1 Arsenal
3-0 Sevilla
7-0 Liverpool
3-1 Villa
6-3 Manchester City
4-0 Brentford

Manchester United, you know.
This isn’t the end either because he’s not changing his tactics and we are not sacking him.

Strange times when you basically know we will get obliterated when we are up against a good team.
 
I think today finally broke me. He’s clearly not getting the most out of the squad at his disposal. He is slow to change when things aren’t working in game. His selections are poor. Manchester Utd having to reply on McT to win us game affer game is so unbelievably grim. None of these lads would get into our best teams. Maybe on their day but that is too few and far between. I’m happy for the club to sell Sancho whether ETH stays or goes. I think the player power and spoiled underbelly needs to be dismantled and reassembled and that probably won’t happen any time soon if we just keep changing managers when the players don’t want to work hard enough but managers should be providing the bare minimum in this job and that’s not happening. Any manager should be comfortably in top 4 while adding to what we have. I would like us to try McKenna but I think the players and owners would probably walk all over him.
 
I'll never take anyone's opinion serious that thinks Ten Hag's football is better than under Ole. Fine to think neither is good enough for where we want to be but this is far worse.
 
Scariest thing to me is how we've just held 0-3 at home to Bournemouth and it seems almost normalised. These are all under this guy:

0-3 Bournemouth
0-3 Newcastle
0-3 Manchester City
1-3 Brighton
3-1 Arsenal
3-0 Sevilla
7-0 Liverpool
3-1 Villa
6-3 Manchester City
4-0 Brentford

Manchester United, you know.

Yeah but it wasn't against relegation fodder so its okay. That's how low standards have dropped for some
 
We're going to get mauled at Anfield again and it'll be his last game in charge. The final nail in the coffin for the conman.
 
I think today finally broke me. He’s clearly not getting the most out of the squad at his disposal. He is slow to change when things aren’t working in game. His selections are poor. Manchester Utd having to reply on McT to win us game affer game is so unbelievably grim. None of these lads would get into our best teams. Maybe on their day but that is too few and far between. I’m happy for the club to sell Sancho whether ETH stays or goes. I think the player power and spoiled underbelly needs to be dismantled and reassembled and that probably won’t happen any time soon if we just keep changing managers when the players don’t want to work hard enough but managers should be providing the bare minimum in this job and that’s not happening. Any manager should be comfortably in top 4 while adding to what we have. I would like us to try McKenna but I think the players and owners would probably walk all over him.

I simply don’t agree that the players don’t work hard enough. They worked hard last season. Why would they intentionally stop this one?

What I see are players who look confused. Casemiro, before his injury, spent every match looking bewildered as to why he had no one anywhere near him in our formation. Varane is a player who has always seemed the ultimate professional and yet now he can’t even get in the team ahead of a LB.

We have youngsters who come into the team, do fairly well and are then jettisoned again shortly after. Sancho, for all his faults, has never seemed like a character who should be hard to deal with for a top manager (maybe getting him to training on time every day but not having some irretrievable breakdown in the relationship).

EtH had a lot of credit coming into this season but it’s pretty much expired. Yes, this is a hard club to manage, especially in the last season or so. However, it remains one with a lot of top players, who I’m convinced a good manager could make enjoyable to watch. He just hasn’t done it.
 
What exactly is the relevance of the empty stadiums?? Does that somehow prevent other teams playing football but not us? The reality is that he had an 18 month or so spell when we were primarily good to watch. We had problems breaking down low blocks but EtH hasn’t fixed that. We were capable of going toe to toe with decent teams home and away - EtH has definitely fixed that.

EtH has had some bad luck with injuries but a lot of his problems seem to be caused by his own bad decisions. As soon as he wanted to sign Mount this summer, most of us saw the potential problems but thought he must have a clever plan. Turns out he didn’t - exactly the problems expected arose. Even having realised Mount isn’t good enough, he’s still playing the same disjointed formation by including McT in a more advanced role.

The incredible thing about this season is that we are actually getting better results than our performances deserve. We really should be bottom half on the basis of our overall displays.

It's just VPs way of shitting on Ole because he hated the guy. As positive as he is with Ten Hag was as negative as he was with Ole. Probably because Ole replaced Jose and from memory he was a Jose fan.

I'd sooner take Ole football where we'd score goals and go on runs of unbeaten form over losing every other fecking game.
 
I think today finally broke me. He’s clearly not getting the most out of the squad at his disposal. He is slow to change when things aren’t working in game. His selections are poor. Manchester Utd having to reply on McT to win us game affer game is so unbelievably grim. None of these lads would get into our best teams. Maybe on their day but that is too few and far between. I’m happy for the club to sell Sancho whether ETH stays or goes. I think the player power and spoiled underbelly needs to be dismantled and reassembled and that probably won’t happen any time soon if we just keep changing managers when the players don’t want to work hard enough but managers should be providing the bare minimum in this job and that’s not happening. Any manager should be comfortably in top 4 while adding to what we have. I would like us to try McKenna but I think the players and owners would probably walk all over him.
I do sympathise with your sentiments here but I fear it is unrealistic to expect these players to learn a new system and keep winning at the same time.

Many of the players are not good enough to do what’s asked of them consistently. You could argue that the system is wrong but it is the players that are wrong. It makes no difference to the outcomes because if the players and system are incompatible you will have problems.

But the old system was not a winning system, even if it did suit our current players better. Therefore we change to a better system and the players have to learn it or they will be replaced. While this process is happening we will lose games, as we have seen. Three more signings in the summer will help. By then we will have been playing the new system for a year and the players will be recruited to fit the system. It is the way forward but it’s going to sting. A lot. All season, probably.

So Top 4 unlikely. Some old timer could come in until the end of the season and set us up in a pragmatic system to get points but we’d be no further on. Our goal is not to make sure we get Top 4 but to transform into a multiple title winning juggernaut. Radical change is required.
 
I do sympathise with your sentiments here but I fear it is unrealistic to expect these players to learn a new system and keep winning at the same time.

Many of the players are not good enough to do what’s asked of them consistently. You could argue that the system is wrong but it is the players that are wrong. It makes no difference to the outcomes because if the players and system are incompatible you will have problems.

But the old system was not a winning system, even if it did suit our current players better. Therefore we change to a better system and the players have to learn it or they will be replaced. While this process is happening we will lose games, as we have seen. Three more signings in the summer will help. By then we will have been playing the new system for a year and the players will be recruited to fit the system. It is the way forward but it’s going to sting. A lot. All season, probably.

So Top 4 unlikely. Some old timer could come in until the end of the season and set us up in a pragmatic system to get points but we’d be no further on. Our goal is not to make sure we get Top 4 but to transform into a multiple title winning juggernaut. Radical change is required.

Explain the system.
 
It's just VPs way of shitting on Ole because he hated the guy. As positive as he is with Ten Hag was as negative as he was with Ole. Probably because Ole replaced Jose and from memory he was a Jose fan.

I'd sooner take Ole football where we'd score goals and go on runs of unbeaten form over losing every other fecking game.
The thing on here is that people never like to admit they were wrong. They said it would be better under another manager so they have to double down on it despite all the evidence saying otherwise.
 
I do sympathise with your sentiments here but I fear it is unrealistic to expect these players to learn a new system and keep winning at the same time.

Many of the players are not good enough to do what’s asked of them consistently. You could argue that the system is wrong but it is the players that are wrong. It makes no difference to the outcomes because if the players and system are incompatible you will have problems.

But the old system was not a winning system, even if it did suit our current players better. Therefore we change to a better system and the players have to learn it or they will be replaced. While this process is happening we will lose games, as we have seen. Three more signings in the summer will help. By then we will have been playing the new system for a year and the players will be recruited to fit the system. It is the way forward but it’s going to sting. A lot. All season, probably.

So Top 4 unlikely. Some old timer could come in until the end of the season and set us up in a pragmatic system to get points but we’d be no further on. Our goal is not to make sure we get Top 4 but to transform into a multiple title winning juggernaut. Radical change is required.

I admire your optimism but I don’t trust the manager and coaches to get the best out of any group we do assemble in the future. I also don’t think we can turn Bruno and Rashford into title winners and play this new system. It’s going to take years to turn this around. We need to build a midfield that can win the battle and run the show. We need players who can create and finish chances at the highest level. The game gets way easier when you control the play. We never do under ETH this season and that’s a deal breaker for me.
 
I simply don’t agree that the players don’t work hard enough. They worked hard last season. Why would they intentionally stop this one?

What I see are players who look confused. Casemiro, before his injury, spent every match looking bewildered as to why he had no one anywhere near him in our formation. Varane is a player who has always seemed the ultimate professional and yet now he can’t even get in the team ahead of a LB.

We have youngsters who come into the team, do fairly well and are then jettisoned again shortly after. Sancho, for all his faults, has never seemed like a character who should be hard to deal with for a top manager (maybe getting him to training on time every day but not having some irretrievable breakdown in the relationship).

EtH had a lot of credit coming into this season but it’s pretty much expired. Yes, this is a hard club to manage, especially in the last season or so. However, it remains one with a lot of top players, who I’m convinced a good manager could make enjoyable to watch. He just hasn’t done it.

Good post. I don’t know what to think anymore. I agree with all your points but I do think players have downed tools on him like they have under several other managers once they try to get them to kick on or call out their professionalism. I don’t think any manager on his own gets this club close to a title. We’ve tried everything to get the most out of several of these players and they aren’t up to it. A total sea change is needed.
 
I admire your optimism but I don’t trust the manager and coaches to get the best out of any group we do assemble in the future. I also don’t think we can turn Bruno and Rashford into title winners and play this new system. It’s going to take years to turn this around. We need to build a midfield that can win the battle and run the show. We need players who can create and finish chances at the highest level. The game gets way easier when you control the play. We never do under ETH this season and that’s a deal breaker for me.

You’re saying that we need a whole new midfield and a new attack but then criticise ETH for not having a team that can control games. As the post youre replying to said, it’ll take time for any manager to come in, adopt a new system and for it to start working especially given that United have players from 3,4 or even 5 previous managers still at the club.
 
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