Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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Hojlund doesn’t have more goals for United than the alternatives combined, he also hasn’t scored in the league and at present isn’t consistently starting matches. I’m not overly concerned with who PSG bought, we bought a striker that isn’t ready to lead the line for us and are having to rely on Martial, again. Like I said, journalist stories are just rumours, it’s daft to take them as gospel and then praise Ten Hag and Murtough for picking the best of the bunch when they signed off on another poor transfer.
Its not rumours if lots of very credible journalists report the same thing.

Also you're right on the combined point, but he has 5 goals for United which is more than what Ramos and Kolo Muani have mustered (in more games too).

Also yes we had to rely on Martial because Hojlund can't play every single game. It's why ten hag wanted another striker with Hojlund and didn't get one.

Also, I'm not praising Murtough. I'm criticising him and the scouts for not having any better alternatives. If they had bought alvarez when we were linked they wouldn't need to worry.
 
But you are saying the guy isn't a successful transfer no?
He’s not a success transfer at present no, he’s not good enough to play week in week out for us.
Its not rumours if lots of very credible journalists report the same thing.

Also you're right on the combined point, but he has 5 goals for United which is more than what Ramos and Kolo Muani have mustered (in more games too).

Also yes we had to rely on Martial because Hojlund can't play every single game. It's why ten hag wanted another striker with Hojlund and didn't get one.
Hojlund has one more goal and two fewer assists than Kolo Muani and has played a lot more minutes than him. I googled the credible journalists but could only find an article in the mirror and one in the MEN which claimed we were after Hojlund (true) and that he is a client of Ten Hag’s agent. It is rumours if it’s transfer speculation.
Isn't that due to him only just coming back from injury? When Hojlund is 100% fit, there's no way Martial is starting ahead of him.
Possibly, though Martial has played consistent minutes since he signed so who knows, either way it’s worrying to have Hojlund starting consistently given how raw he is and his recurring back problem at a young age.
 
He’s not a success transfer at present no, he’s not good enough to play week in week out for us.
I don't agree with that personally but that doesn't automatically make him a failure. He was bought as potential, not as the finished article.
 
Not sure if I believe a single word from Erik in the press conference. Players back him and we play 2 good games and 1 bad game. I am not sure how he sees the game, it seems different from what I am seeing. Against Everton, Garnacho scores a wonder goal and we struggled most of 1st half. Against Galatasray, we played well but conceded 2 stupid goals due to Onana. Newcastle was a no show once again, I think he needs to show me that his team can beat a 6 top side before talking about right direction. There is currently no fire from his group, no one is fighting for one another unlike last season. You could see that everyone was fighting last season when we defend as a team. This season, players slowly jogging back once the ball is lost, opposition ghosting into the box without anyone tracking. The motivation is no longer there to keep clean sheet, so what is Erik seeing. I don't really know.

We need to see evidence he can actually win an away game against one of the top 9. Yes there were some decent performances against them at home last season but too many times the towel getting thrown in for the reverse fixture
 
I don't agree with that personally but that doesn't automatically make him a failure. He was bought as potential, not as the finished article.
I didn’t say he’s automatically a failure the same way I didn’t write him off. He’s a poor signing when you consider the lack of striker options and his lack of current ability, the league is too strong to play a striker that gets to December without a goal. If we wanted a striker with potential we should have signed an experienced head too, even if it was one on the cheap or with the Mount funds.
 
Hojlund has one more goal and two fewer assists than Kolo Muani and has played a lot more minutes than him. I googled the credible journalists but could only find an article in the mirror and one in the MEN which claimed we were after Hojlund (true) and that he is a client of Ten Hag’s agent. It is rumours if it’s transfer speculation.
Right so he's scored more goals then.

Also you haven't googled too well, for example :




There were certainly others too. I think Romano said in one of his videos that Hojlund was ten hags choice and the other two were pushed by the club but vetoed as a favourite. And something similar might have been in the telegraph / times, but I forget now.

In any case we are really micro analysing a sub point of a sub point. You insinuated the manager constantly makes bad transfer choices many posts ago. I'm saying he hasn't, while accepting he certainly made mistakes . That's all.
 
Right so he's scored more goals then.

Also you haven't googled too well, for example :




There were certainly others too. I think Romano said in one of his videos that Hojlund was ten hags choice and the other two were pushed by the club but vetoed as a favourite. And something similar might have been in the telegraph / times, but I forget now.

In any case we are really micro analysing a sub point of a sub point.

Less goal involvements in more minutes yeah. We are I said I don’t care about PSG’s signings, I'm more worried about our striker that hasn’t scored in the league.
 
I didn’t say he’s automatically a failure the same way I didn’t write him off. He’s a poor signing when you consider the lack of striker options and his lack of current ability, the league is too strong to play a striker that gets to December without a goal. If we wanted a striker with potential we should have signed an experienced head too, even if it was one on the cheap or with the Mount funds.
That's more a reflection of the team being dysfunctional than him for not being good enough. How do you explain his goalscoring in Europe if his ability is so low?

Rashford is a proven Premier League standard player and he scored 1 PL goal before he got handed a penalty last weekend. We struggle for goals in general due to being a relatively poor team right now.
 
Less goal involvements in more minutes yeah. We are I said I don’t care about PSG’s signings, I'm more worried about our striker that hasn’t scored in the league.
The comparison was relevant becuase we discussed his flops and success signings. You seemed intent on throwing hojlund into the mix and I'm pointing out the alternatives were not much better, if at all.

If we had a proper scouting network competent at identifying and tying up prospects I'm sure our list wouldn't have been so bleak. Which points to my broader point that transfer failures are systemic in the club and not exclusive to ten hags reign.
 
That's more a reflection of the team being dysfunctional thank him for not being good enough. How do you explain his goalscoring in Europe if his ability is so low?

Rashford is a proven premier league standard player and he scored 1 PL goal before he got handed a penalty last weekend. We struggle for goals in general due to being a relatively poor team right now.
It’s a reflection of his age and lack of adaptability to the Premier League. He’s done well to get those numbers in the Champions League, he’s done poorly to not score in the Premier League, he’s not yet been anything close to a successful transfer.
The comparison was relevant becuase we discussed his flops and success signings. You seemed intent on throwing hojlund into the mix and I'm pointing out the alternatives were not much better, if at all.

If we had a proper scouting network competent at identifying and tying up prospects I'm sure our list wouldn't have been so bleak. Which points to my broader point that transfer failures are systemic in the club and not exclusive to ten hags reign.
I threw Hojlund into the mix because you responded to him like a politician would. Hojlund so far has struggled to make a positive impact in the Premier League which is concerning. We have a scouting network, we don’t know all the options discussed, we know who we signed. If you are pinning all our poor signings on being a systematic failure you can’t give Ten Hag kudos for the ones you see as successes, it can’t work both ways, Murtough would deserve credit.
 
It’s a reflection of his age and lack of adaptability to the Premier League. He’s done well to get those numbers in the Champions League, he’s done poorly to not score in the Premier League, he’s not yet been anything close to a successful transfer.
So for now at least until the end of the season, he deserves the benefit of the doubt?
 
I threw Hojlund into the mix because you responded to him like a politician would. Hojlund so far has struggled to make a positive impact in the Premier League which is concerning. We have a scouting network, we don’t know all the options discussed, we know who we signed. If you are pinning all our poor signings on being a systematic failure you can’t give Ten Hag kudos for the ones you see as successes, it can’t work both ways, Murtough would deserve credit.
I haven't spoken about him as a politician would. I am pointing to the fact that we had a backup option that's no better and it was well reported.

And I'm not giving ten hag sole blame or sole credit. I'm saying IF we want to slam him for certain targets we should credit him for others.

And IF we want to point at signings who haven't worked out we should wonder who the feck was available for us to go for instead. Unless you think our scouts had a list of really top level hidden gem strikers (which they don't, or they wouldn't be in a desperate position to spunk 60m on a kid with one season of proper football).
 
So for now at least until the end of the season, he deserves the benefit of the doubt?
As a transfer? Probably not no unless he suddenly starts scoring regularly in the league. As a player absolutely yes, it’s not his fault he was prioritised despite not being ready.
 
It was a tragic mistake by ten Hag to thrust young Rasmus into a situation he was nowhere near ready to handle.

Oh well, shit happens again...and again and again, regardless of who manages United.
 
I haven't spoken about him as a politician would. I am pointing to the fact that we had a backup option that's no better and it was well reported.

And I'm not giving ten hag sole blame or sole credit. I'm saying IF we want to slam him for certain targets we should credit him for others.

And IF we want to point at signings who haven't worked out we should wonder who the feck was available for us to go for instead. Unless you think our scouts had a list of really top level hidden gem strikers (which they don't, or they wouldn't be in a desperate position to spunk 60m on a kid with one season of proper football).
Yes, Ten Hag, Murtough and the system deserve credit for Martinez and Casemiro to a lesser extent. They deserve all the pelters they get for Mount, Antony, Weghorst, Onana, paying 60 million for a 20 year old that didn’t start week in week out for Atalanta.
 
As a transfer? Probably not no unless he suddenly starts scoring regularly in the league. As a player absolutely yes, it’s not his fault he was prioritised despite not being ready.
I find that outlook baffling. Not all transfers (particularly this one) are about short-term success.

Also, PSG wanted him so we had to move of we wanted him.
 
Yes, Ten Hag, Murtough and the system deserve credit for Martinez and Casemiro to a lesser extent. They deserve all the pelters they get for Mount, Antony, Weghorst, Onana, paying 60 million for a 20 year old that didn’t start week in week out for Atalanta.
And that's a fair assessment. No problems there. My gripe is when posters with a vendetta against the manager put 100% of the blame of the transfers on him alone.
 
I found his comment regarding man-marking pretty interesting. He was adamant that we don't do it but it seems like we do it regularly.
 
Even if we had four brilliant, Cruyff-turning ball playing defenders to complement Onana's incredible footwork, our woeful finishing would still be a massive problem.

Why we refused to bring in a proven striker in the summer of 2023 will forever be an indictment of the management of Manchester United.

Yeah we chose replacing Onana and signing Mount over a proven striker which was utter madness in our situation
 
I mean he is 20. He's young but he's no Mainoo.
And he is - like it or not - team’s (joint) top goal scorer this season (having played fairly limited amount of minutes, so to speak).

Maybe his goal return is far from being good enough (surely so), but it is at least better that what other stars have produced. We need to keep it in mind - we don’t create enough chances.
 
I know people are saying Malacia is a good signing, I don't think he's a bad signing, but good? Has it scored/assisted for us? He always strikes me as utterly average at everything he does. Not good at defending and not good at attacking, he's not even young either, he's 24. I would say it was a very underwhelming first season. But a cheap fee at least.

We paid 70m euros for Casemiro. He'll be 32 in 2 months and there's question marks on both his commitment. Again, I don't think he's been a disaster and his form at times last season was very good. But you shouldnt expect just one good season from a 70m investment. He's been a weak link this season.

Højlund is playing in a team that is the attacking equivalent of a potato. Lets wait until our attack actually improves before throwing him on the scrap bin as the young lad needs service and he's shown his potential in the CL. I think he'll come good.

I'd say ETHs successful transfers have been Eriksen and Martinez (although concerned by his injury record). The rest are up for debate.
 
Not sure if I believe a single word from Erik in the press conference. Players back him and we play 2 good games and 1 bad game. I am not sure how he sees the game, it seems different from what I am seeing. Against Everton, Garnacho scores a wonder goal and we struggled most of 1st half. Against Galatasray, we played well but conceded 2 stupid goals due to Onana. Newcastle was a no show once again, I think he needs to show me that his team can beat a 6 top side before talking about right direction. There is currently no fire from his group, no one is fighting for one another unlike last season. You could see that everyone was fighting last season when we defend as a team. This season, players slowly jogging back once the ball is lost, opposition ghosting into the box without anyone tracking. The motivation is no longer there to keep clean sheet, so what is Erik seeing. I don't really know.
Erik is not airing the dirty laundry in public, he is seething. He still thinks he can turn it around. Maybe he is delusional.
 
I know our malaise as a club has nothing to do with my needs, but I am sick and tired of being laughed at by my colleagues for the idiotic manner in which United has been run since Ferguson retired. We all respect how ten Hag conducts himself personally but it's abundantly evident that it's all falling apart around him -- an immolation that he himself has had a hand in authoring. His transfers, with the exception of Martinez and Hojlund, have bee appalling, and his tactics come nowhere near to maximizing the talent has does have. The one thing you'd have to give him a lot of credit for is how he handled the Ronaldo fiasco.

What's saving him right now is the absence of any realistic alternative the club could bring in to replace Erik right now. The one plausible name is Conte but that's out of the question. Carlo's name has come up in speculation but that's just not realistic.

Yeah the lack of alternatives at this time of the season is exactly why he feels safe as houses
 
I found his comment regarding man-marking pretty interesting. He was adamant that we don't do it but it seems like we do it regularly.
Yeah. Very weird comment.

Perhaps, he doesn't understand the word man marking itself? Because else it would be like a desperate child trying to deny by lying through the teeth when getting caught red handed.

ETH may not use man to man marking all over the pitch but he definitely utilize man marking in midfield in many games. Nobody can look at Weghorst following Fabinho against the direction of the play in Liverpool opening goal in 0-7 defeat and said it was not a man marking tactic.
 
It can be true that Ten Hag turns out not be the one while simultaneously being true that a club, ideally, wants their manager sticking around for a while. As I said, it's a sign that things are going consistently well.

There's also a middle ground between blindly giving a manager 5 years regardless of results and sacking him at the first bump in the road.

Potter is an awful example given he won just six of 21 league games, half of which were his first three games, and had the worst record of any of Chelsea's Premier League managers. He was clearly out of his depth.

I'm also not sure Emery is a great example, given that he had Arsenal finishing 5th in his first season (they finished 6th in Wenger's last and fifth the season before), and he was sacked after a poor run saw them drop from 3rd to 8th, and Arteta only managed to salvage 8th on the final day, finished there again the following season, and only managed to match Emery's 5th placed finish in his third season. Emery went on to win the Europa League and reach the CL semis with Villarreal, and turned a relegation threatened Villa side into a decent top half team, currently competing for a CL spot, and are sat top of their Conference League group having won four from five. It's not a massive stretch to think that he could have done alright with Arsenal had they not pulled the trigger at the first sign of trouble.

Again, Ten Hag might not be the one, but he took us to 3rd and won us a cup last season, and that was with us being in complete disarray the season before and having to replace Ronaldo with Weghorst mid-season. He's earned more than 14 games of a heavily disrupted second campaign.
You wrote a lot for nothing argument. All comes back to using favorable comparison as the foundation of your argument. The point being, there are a lot different variety at place. ETH is not Pep, Klopp, Arteta, Emery, Potter, Poch... and we 're not those other clubs. If one compare favorable to the best outcome where there is very little similarity, then other can compare for the bad outcome, which is much more in existent.

In your own word, you said "It's not a massive stretch to think that he could have done alright with Arsenal had they not pulled the trigger at the first sign of trouble.", but the same time Arsenal is happy enough with the decision to sack Emery for Arteta. Which is translated as "don't be afraid to change manager"

Emery looks like he is a short term manager. His teams can sometimes play some nice football, but ultimately he's a result based manager who is capable of playing shitehouse football to win. His selling point is not long term successes, a guaranteed long lasting style of play. Even when he peaked with a club, eventually he would move to another club. He cashed in his previous peak/achievement to advance his career. He's not a builder of long term dynasty, a Wenger. When his team starts going down, it's time to go. So if ETH is Emery type, shouldn't he get the sack now his cycle has come to decline phase?

You beat down Potter because he achieved nothing, but projecting another favorable comparison for ETH using Emery who is more experienced in dealing with big ego from his PSG time, and more decorated. Really? If a more decorated manager got sacked, and their club wouldn't look back; there is no reason not to do the same for a less proven manager. Last season achievement earned ETH a decent transfer kitty which he had a big say, and he looked like wasting it when the CL campaign is undoing all. Mourinho won both League Cup and EL in his first season. Finished second with highest tally post SAF, and made FA Cup final, but by the start of his third season, the writing was on the wall for everyone to see. By the same logic, Ole and Mourinho would have been allowed 2 full seasons for their first two full season achievement/high finish? This season is on the course to be worse than when Mourinho got sacked. ETH has been earning the sack, especially when he abandoned his principles leaving him with nothing to fall on.

The competent team would have been looking at option for next season to replace him even if they would write off this season, allowing him to see out the season.
 
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I absolutely cannot stand the constant hoof ball we play under him. I thought we bought Onana to play from the back but instead he launches the ball 70 percent of the time. We just constantly and needlessly give the ball away every match by kicking the ball long. It makes even less sense when the system has left the DM isolated.

Yep that's my biggest gripe with him. I gave him a free pass last season because of De Gea. But now with a ball playing GK there is no excuses.

He has dropped Varane because he is not that good on the ball, yet it's launch after launch from Onana. We played out from the back better under Ole with De Gea in nets than what we do now.
 
If Onana is still launching the ball forward once Martinez and Casemiro are back, I’ll be very confused.

We were doing that when they were available, this is not a player issue but a manager one.

He has himself said that we are playing more geared towards fast transition, so more long balls, more risky passes, more carelessness in possession.
 
The big issue with 'it's the players' (and I have no doubt they play their part in this shambles) is that good coaching and a properly implemented system immediately highlights who is and is not up to the job and completely absolves ten Hag for the fact that it's then on the player who is not executing and the weak links are revealed. In that manner, so much of the criticism and scrutiny he is under dissipates immediately because then, you can see what he's tried to construct and you can see who prevents that from materialising. It would make the masses aware that removing players X, Y and Z and replacing them with upgrades should be the next step in the evolutionary chain. ten Hag would get extra time and patience in this way and perhaps even a season where we do fall short in terms of CL qualifying endeavours and cup exits. Many a club now at the very top of the PL have had exactly that happen to them and been all the better for it.

What has unsettled me personally, is watching this man get outcoached time and again. From the tactical set up to the in-game reactions and counterplanning, he gets outdone routinely and there's no hint of a clever strategy or set of adjustments that turn the game in our favour once the floodgates open. It's all chaos and then invariably the last bit of the game when the opposition are satisfied they can see out the game defensively so shell up, which falsely infers we're getting a footing in the game because "suddenly" we have a lot of the ball. This thread should revolve a lot more around what's going on on the pitch and not all the fluff off it.

Regarding the effort of the players, I still don't see them downing tools. Rashford is in space cadet mode and doesn't count towards anything; ten Hag should know better than to rely on Martial, and outside of that, the players are trying to the best of their ability in a set up that makes things very difficult from the outset. If you do not control midfield, you do not get dictate anything in a game and all your actions will be reactionary, even if you think you're being proactive. This again plays into being out-strategised and outcoached and it's a massive concern.

I'll reserve a paragraph for Bruno because I'm usually neutral or a detractor given the way he usually plays hero ball or bomb! Lately (last 3 games) he has been good and very studious with the ball. The problems have come on the other side of it because of a lopsided system that does not optimise him at all. Knowing his weaknesses, that has to be factored into a plan, you don't just do it anyway and hope for the best. Setting McTominay high and having an inverted triangle in midfield is the opposite of what benefits Bruno. He needs secure midfielders behind him that will lessen his defensive load and get the ball back up to him quickly; he has it more in him to be the single creator and scorer in the half space than he does to help in deep midfield. Any base behind him is better than he and Mctominay working backwards when neither of them are any good at it.

I get your points and agree with most of them.

Regarding the good coaching bit this is where I struggle. At the end of the day you can be the greatest coach but if key players are not giving it their all then you'll struggle. Some will say well its the managers job to motivate players, true, however if it was that easy then managers would not have to build and bring in new players (simplified). Just like in any job there are players who can't be motivated or just don't have the mental fortitude. Players like Rashford, Martial etc have shown they down tools very quickly under every manager. The likes of Sancho have shown before that they don't give 100% in training. Maybe a great coach can get the best out-of them consistently but I doubt it. So on the coaching, not letting ten hag off but its clear he's trying to implement a tactic that requires the entire team to know their roles, always be switched on and make the right decisions. When you have Rashford in the team who does not press, get back or make the right decisions then in these tactics you are playing with a man down. Add in Martial and you are effectively playing with 9. Now when watching newcastle and seeing Joelinton and Almiron, the key difference with them is they run and give their all constantly, even before Howe came so of course they will adapt to a high octane tactic when compared to both Rashford and Martial. Its easy to say well then switch back to 4231, well if we do that then we may as well have kept Ole or Jose. At some stage we will need to commit to a true tactical change and go through the fire to reach it.

When you add in that to play the way Ten Hag wants you also need player's technically proficient and with good football intelligence. This is where the deficiencies in the squad, poor recruitment and injuries further hurt us. We are forced to play Mctominay who as a midfielder is technically worse than a joelinton, Amrabat who is out of his depth in this league in terms of speed, add in Bruno who for sure is a very good player but like Juan Mata I can't help but feel he's a player whose playstyle is no longer appropriate for the current game at the very top. He is too risky, too costly in his play and whilst it doesn't directly lead to us conceding goals it does lead to us losing control of games. We have said the no 10 role is outdated, yet one of our star players can only effectively function there.

Now Ten Hags recruitment has to be questioned, however, is it as terrible as we make it out? Martinez is clearly a great signing, Malacia a good back up, Rasmus I think will be a very good signing, Casemiro whilst old clealry improves us and eriksen was a great signing. Then you have Antony who I think is a poor signing. Mount I'll reserve judgement and Amrabat I'll commit to saying he isn't good enough. Is that overall record terrible? Its not amazing but is it as bad as we say? We can't buy players like De Jong, Jude, Erling, Kane that will take us from europa/4th place to winning a league so we have to buy the next rung down. Also every manager from pep to klopp to arteta bought multiple flops when building their teams, its part of the game.

So in summary....I think ive re-convinced myself to back Ten Hag! He needs to be supported with a better recruitment team, get in players that can challenge Rashford and Bruno etc, get rid of the remnants of Ole/Jose's teams and hopefully we will start to see Ten Hags vision.
 
You wrote a lot for nothing argument. All comes back to using favorable comparison as the foundation of your argument. The point being, there are a lot different variety at place. ETH is not Pep, Klopp, Arteta, Emery, Potter, Poch... and we 're not those other clubs. If one compare favorable to the best outcome where there is very little similarity, then other can compare for the bad outcome, which is much more in existent.

In your own word, you said "It's not a massive stretch to think that he could have done alright with Arsenal had they not pulled the trigger at the first sign of trouble.", but the same time Arsenal is happy enough with the decision to sack Emery for Arteta. Which is translated as "don't be afraid to change manager"

Emery looks like he is a short term manager. His teams can sometimes play some nice football, but ultimately he's a result based manager who is capable of playing shitehouse football to win. His selling point is not long term successes, a guaranteed long lasting style of play. Even when he peaked with a club, eventually he would move to another club. He cashed in his previous peak/achievement to advance his career. He's not a builder of long term dynasty, a Wenger. When his team starts going down, it's time to go. So if ETH is Emery type, shouldn't he get the sack now his cycle has come to decline phase?

You beat down Potter because he achieved nothing, but projecting another favorable comparison for ETH using Emery who is more experienced in dealing with big ego from his PSG time, and more decorated. Really? If a more decorated manager got sacked, and their club wouldn't look back; there is no reason not to do the same for a less proven manager. Last season achievement earned ETH a decent transfer kitty which he had a big say, and he looked like wasting it when the CL campaign is undoing all. Mourinho won both League Cup and EL in his first season. Finished second with highest tally post SAF, and made FA Cup final, but by the start of his third season, the writing was on the wall for everyone to see. By the same logic, Ole and Mourinho would have been allowed 2 full seasons for their first two full season achievement/high finish? This season is on the course to be worse than when Mourinho got sacked. ETH has been earning the sack, especially when he abandoned his principles leaving him with nothing to fall on.

The competent team would have been looking at option for next season to replace him even if they would write off this season, allowing him to see out the season.

As I've said a number of times, Ten Hag might not be the one, but we're also not even halfway through his second season.

I'm not committed to Ten Hag, and this specific discussion wasn't strictly about Ten Hag, but about "long term" managers.

I simply raised the points that a) having a manager for a number of seasons generally means that things are going consistently well and b) the three best sides in the league happen to have "long term" managers.

You've then constantly tried to spin it into a Ten Hag debate yet your only thing is "favourable" comparisons when I could just as easily spin that around to you only focusing on the less favourable comparisons.

Simply put, if Ten Hag survives the season it means he's met expectations, which is likely to require a turn around in performances and achieving top four. If he doesn't do that, he'll get the sack and there won't be many complaints. Whether it's Ten Hag or a new manager, reaching a fifth season in charge (or by our standards, a fourth), will be an indicator that things are going well.
 
That's true but you have to question why he didn't push to sign another ball playing CB in the summer instead of spending big on Mason Mount.

I’d love to really know , not speculate, who ETHs targets and preferred signings really were. I’d also love to know how often United don’t get their managers top picks like Kane or FDJ.

I mean, I like Hoijland and think he could be a super player , but he could equally be he a martial 2.0 . You could imagine him at United in 10 years time still wandering around the corridors of United , sometimes injured , sometimes he’s on form for a few games (usually near contract renewal time) and Joel still extends his contracts because he believes he’s the danish Haaland or he’s a decent book value.

The glazers having any opinion and sway on football matters makes me puke a little in my mouth. They haven’t a breeze and should stick to just taking money out of the club.

One thing never considered here is how having such a mish mash of players makes it so hard for managers. You get some really motivated players, playing alongside players who don’t have the drive or the professionalism to raise the bar CONSISTENTLY. This must be galling for the quality players.

Makes me think of Moyes and the fellaini signing. For all the talk of Moyes being out of his depth, the fellaini signing was the nail in his coffin. I remember how Van persie was so angry with Ferguson for retiring after he signed and he was nowhere near the same player only a few months after winning the league with United. I’m sure the Fellaini signing helped allay any fears RVP had about standards dropping.

When you see a struggling United opt for a Hoijland over a Kane, this is a kick in the teeth for any player hitting their 30s. They won’t see the benefit of a promising talent and they know you are going to get inconsistency with martial the pathetic back up. This, after Weghorst was the clubs solution last season. I mean that alone would drive most mad.

Remids me of the club “building on 2nd spot” with Fred and Dalot. How are you supposed to catch Man City with that sort of “ambition”? This is what our club does, it try’s to do just enough to be there or there abouts in the top 4 race. That must kill really ambitious players and drive our managers mad. Are we not a super club with super ambitions? This is what we sell players/managers and then the club falls short every single time.

Players don’t join Brighton, Newcastle or even spurs, with the idea that they may win the league or the CL. Indeed qualifying for Europe is generally the level of ambition that’s very acceptable at these clubs. As such managers inherit squads of players who are at the level they are gunning for and have less egos to manage. Not just that, many of the squad are players still looking to prove a point. Many United players think they’ve made it just by being at United.

There is no winning culture at United because there is no winning culture at the club. On field success is not a priority and it shows. United is the only club that doesn’t need to succeed on field (and our owners even brag about it) , that’s what separates it from all the other top clubs whose priority is on field success. When we need that bit more to go that bit further we get Fred/Dalot, that encapsulates the true ambitions of the owners that undermines managers and our teams.
 
As I've said a number of times, Ten Hag might not be the one, but we're also not even halfway through his second season.

I'm not committed to Ten Hag, and this specific discussion wasn't strictly about Ten Hag, but about "long term" managers.

I simply raised the points that a) having a manager for a number of seasons generally means that things are going consistently well and b) the three best sides in the league happen to have "long term" managers.

You've then constantly tried to spin it into a Ten Hag debate yet your only thing is "favourable" comparisons when I could just as easily spin that around to you only focusing on the less favourable comparisons.

Simply put, if Ten Hag survives the season it means he's met expectations, which is likely to require a turn around in performances and achieving top four. If he doesn't do that, he'll get the sack and there won't be many complaints. Whether it's Ten Hag or a new manager, reaching a fifth season in charge (or by our standards, a fourth), will be an indicator that things are going well.
You don't need to go the whole season to see signs that the wheels have come off, and the trajectory has gone off the rail. Even ETH went on record stating he wanted us to be the transition team, and evidence pointing to this direction and it's the terrible type. Who's in the right mind what a Dutch coach to build transition team, especially one that has no experience to do so.

There is no spin on my counter argument with unfavorable comparison because the bad outcome outnumbered good outcome. You would run out of giving time to turn good comparison way before I need to Google for more examples (can easily recall bunch of occasions where sacking manager help the situation). And the point I brought up with these unfavorable comparison was to show you, most comparison is bogus. Too many different variables to have similar situation. ETH is vastly different to Pep, Klopp, Arteta, Emery...

Long term manager concept is based on success and evidence of progress. What ETH is showing is not simply stagnation but regression with more money and time. No long term managers would stay as long as they would without proof of achievement, evidence of progress. Quickly abandoning one's principle is almost unheard for these long term managers. The progress would already show in second season, not look like it gone back to square one.

The ownership under Glazers don't deserve to "make" a "new" long term manager. They knew a long term manager, one if not the best in the history, but they can't learn to identify another one all this time. There is no point on wishful thinking when comparing to other clubs which had learned to change and restructure themselves to move forward, when Glazers cronies still runs the club like they find a new SAF in ETH who is not.

Stop moving the goal post. You were talking about giving ETH time as is to turn it around, not scenario in the after he actually turned it around. If you want to discuss wishful thinking fairy tale future, then wait until that time comes, or show us proof that you can see into future.

The "now" discussion is ETH is reaching close to sacking point where his record is almost Mourinho bad in the league (already worse in CL. Undoing last season work in the league to get CL football), when he got the boot. He cashed in last season result with decent transfer budget.
 
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Think he has to win today.
I would take a draw. Even a respectable unlucky soft defeat is not that bad. It's not just the result, he has to show for his coaching belief. Not this bs best transition team in the world, which was not our interest in his potential shown at Ajax.

Issue with Newcastle game was not just the defeat. Newcastle beat PSG, Arsenal, Chelsea, City (league cup)... gave Liverpool a game before shooting those selves in the foot and lost. We know they're a tough opposition at their ground. The issue is we look clueless as a team, and getting worse in comparison to Newcastle who was behind us at the beginning of last season. When we won the League Cup, we were still the better team, but now we regressed to a state where we're serverely outclassed in the two recent occasions against weakened Newcastle team.

This Chelsea team has shown they can turn up in game against big teams with very good performance, so expecting a win is a big ask.

IMO I want a big performance from us even if the result may not be ideal.
 
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You don't need to go the whole season to see signs that the wheels have come off, and the trajectory has gone off the rail. Even ETH went on record stating he wanted us to be the transition team, and evidence pointing to this direction and it's the terrible type. Who's in the right mind what a Dutch coach to build transition team, especially one that has no experience to do so.

There is no spin on my counter argument with unfavorable comparison because the bad outcome outnumbered good outcome. You would run out of giving time to turn good comparison way before I need to Google for more examples (can easily recall bunch of occasions where sacking manager help the situation). And the point I brought up with these unfavorable comparison was to show you, most comparison is bogus. Too many different variables to have similar situation. ETH is vastly different to Pep, Klopp, Arteta, Emery...

Long term manager concept is based on success and evidence of progress. What ETH is showing is not simply stagnation but regression with more money and time. No long term managers would stay as long as they would without proof of achievement, evidence of progress. Quickly abandoning one's principle is almost unheard for these long term managers. The progress would already show in second season, not look like it gone back to square one.

The ownership under Glazers don't deserve to "make" a "new" long term manager. They knew a long term manager, one if not the best in the history, but they can't learn to identify another one all this time. There is no point on wishful thinking when comparing to other clubs which had learned to change and restructure themselves to move forward, when Glazers cronies still runs the club like they find a new SAF in ETH who is not.

Stop moving the goal post. You we're talking about giving ETH time as is to turn it around, not scenario where he actually turned it around. If you want to discuss wishful thinking fairy tale future, then wait until that time comes, or show us proof that you can see into future.

The "now" discussion is ETH is reaching close to sacking point where his record is almost Mourinho bad in the league (already worse in CL. Undoing last season work in the league to get CL football), when he got the boot. He cashed in last season result with decent transfer budget.

You're writing a load of shite to completely miss the point yet again.

I didn't even bring up Ten Hag, you did. If we can't pick-up a decent number of points from our next run of games then Ten Hag will likely rightly be fired because it'll have passed "bump in the road" and well and truly entered "wheels come off".

Literally all I did was respond to a poster asking why people kept bringing up long term managers by pointing out that the three best sides in the league had managers that matched his definition of "long term".

Again, whether it's Tem Hag having turned things around or a new manager, having a manager in post for 5+ years is a sign that things are going consistently well. That doesn't mean you have to give every manager that time, but there's also a middle ground between sticking with a manager despite results and performances and sacking one at the first real dip in form.

You're literally just waffling shite about other managers and now bringing up footballing philosophy because you're desperate to spin it about Ten Hag. I don't care.

The point is as simple as people wanting a long term manager because that will almost certainly mean things have been going well for that long term. Again, this hypothetical manager does not have to be Ten Hag, and I never said it did.
 
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