Just join them having fun. Seriously mate, let such stuff not get so close, it is football ffs. Nothing else. I am sure, you did everything very well as a fan, thats all you can do. It has all been there already, we have made fun of Liverpool for not getting it together, a little bit fun of Chelsea. Now it is us again. Lets not act as if it would just stop when things would start to get better a bit.
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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"A bunch of players" isn't what was said though, is it. "The club needs to be purged from DOF, to manager and through to the players." is the full quote what was said. @Waynne
The implication being that doing that and replacing it then means you will suddenly become successful.
Now that does happen at a lot of clubs all over the league. Most lower league clubs replace their entire first 11 every 2 years pretty much - they're unrecognisable. Managers come and go too. But that doesn't suddenly make a side like Aldershot, who sell all their players and manager and replace them all suddenly league champions in their Division. It's just that there is a lot more room for improvement so they tend to be more risky in their decision making.
We need to be more selective with player recruitment no doubt but pretending that we just say we should sell everyone and the manager and replace them and that fixes things is such an insanely lazy cop out. There are 20 sides in the division, we are aiming to be better than all of them, but the margins for success are really thin and you can't just completely obliterate an entire structure and expect success, and that's not without realising that it would be prohibitively expensive (as well as an undoubted failure).
City got away with building their entire infrastructure up because they could afford to fail and do it all again. Misstep a full back, spunk 100million and go again
With the Glazers they simply won't. That's the biggest problem of all and the one Ratcliffe is going to struggle the most getting past.
Sad state of affairs. Those same folks might jump ship if the club and culture is indeed reset because there will be a some growing pains in the new setup and our fanbase can be very impatient.
Don't care if we play stupid football at this point, don't care if we win anything, don't care what happens on the pitch in this very moment at all.
Full cultural reset, full wage structure reset. Massive clearout. That's what's needed. Play youngsters who are eager to prove themselves and are willing to run their socks off and follow instructions.
Get rid of the toxic, overpaid, useless primadonas immediately.
Change of manager accomplishes nothing at this point.
These players would throw even SAF under the bus.
On that note - if ETH plays Rashford and Martial tomorrow, I'll be fecking pissed. If he plays them, I'll know that either they are more powerful than him in this club or he just hopes they'll magically play good (they won't). Lately I can't even look at their faces without getting angry.
Garnacho, Antony, Hojlund upfront. Mount ready to come on.
Full cultural reset, full wage structure reset. Massive clearout. That's what's needed. Play youngsters who are eager to prove themselves and are willing to run their socks off and follow instructions.
Get rid of the toxic, overpaid, useless primadonas immediately.
Change of manager accomplishes nothing at this point.
These players would throw even SAF under the bus.
On that note - if ETH plays Rashford and Martial tomorrow, I'll be fecking pissed. If he plays them, I'll know that either they are more powerful than him in this club or he just hopes they'll magically play good (they won't). Lately I can't even look at their faces without getting angry.
Garnacho, Antony, Hojlund upfront. Mount ready to come on.
What is this obsession with "long-term managers"? None of our peer clubs make hiring decisions based on the expectation that the manager will still be in the job in 5-10 years. Football just doesn't work that way anymore.
I was referring to the Melissa Reddy tweet, not the poster.
Oh yeah, in that case it's hard to argue with what she/Rangnick said really
He has been proven right in a lot of what he said, I think Ten Hag came in and has tried to work with the players/mould them into his vision but they're unmouldable (and the players he's brought in, Hojlund aside, haven't done well so far)Feels like it’s escalating quickly right now, with the dressing room leaks and his comment today, which frankly smacked of desperation the way he was trying to big up average-at-best performances. I think Anfield or Bayern will be the final straw.
Another strong action by ten hag today with the journalists. Its an ugly, messy process rebuilding and trying to alter the culture of a club that has failed for a decade. Terrible situations like those that arose with ronaldo, sancho and others are something we have to embrace. For years, the likes of pogba and lingard just coasted through. More and more stories emerge every now and then about just how bad the dressing room culture and professionalism has been.
Before we can ever think about winning big trophies again, this simply has to be dealt with. May there be another ugly 'morale damaging' fall out with martial, rashford...whoever, whatever is needed next. Weed them all out one by one. I'm so so sick of the same thing happening and huge portions of the fanbase seemingly forgetting that we've been here before and it gets worse each time. It's like a joke or a curse - how many more managers does it happen to before you think, okay, maybe this time we try give a manager longer even if it means no trophies, to fully weed out the unprofessionals. Whatever you want to say about ten hag and his signings for example, Id sooner see Casemiro, Antony, Hojlund, Martinez and Mount have to battle for us, than plenty of players who were here before he came.
Imagine thinking that going out and punting on de zerbi, or whoever else is popular now, is the right approach?!
A list of all names that have been thrown up when calls for sacking previous managers were made.
See how so many of those managers are doing now. Flashes in the pan, overachievers, managers who had a club in a golden era. They might not have been hot favourites but off the top of my head, there were people at times in the last decade absolutely convinced that the following were the guys to do the job, and I include myself in this delusion. (not to mention van gaal and mourinho).. I don't want anybody to tell me with a straight face that any of them would have done the job in hindsight, and if you do, then you better point to some evidence that they were succesful since the links.
Potter, Pochettino, Enrique, Allegri, Rogers, Blanc, Zidane, Jardim was ALL the rage, fecking Conte, Deschamps, Low, Nagelsmann. Going back to post Moyes among the bookies names were Capello, de Boer, Laudrup....the list goes on and on and on. Stop for the love of god having your head turned by any manager, no matter how good, who will just be coming into the same disjointed shit show and let a manager rebuild an entire dressing room, only keeping the players he'd identified as good enough and promoting the youth he wants. What have we got to lose.
Before we can ever think about winning big trophies again, this simply has to be dealt with. May there be another ugly 'morale damaging' fall out with martial, rashford...whoever, whatever is needed next. Weed them all out one by one. I'm so so sick of the same thing happening and huge portions of the fanbase seemingly forgetting that we've been here before and it gets worse each time. It's like a joke or a curse - how many more managers does it happen to before you think, okay, maybe this time we try give a manager longer even if it means no trophies, to fully weed out the unprofessionals. Whatever you want to say about ten hag and his signings for example, Id sooner see Casemiro, Antony, Hojlund, Martinez and Mount have to battle for us, than plenty of players who were here before he came.
Imagine thinking that going out and punting on de zerbi, or whoever else is popular now, is the right approach?!
A list of all names that have been thrown up when calls for sacking previous managers were made.
See how so many of those managers are doing now. Flashes in the pan, overachievers, managers who had a club in a golden era. They might not have been hot favourites but off the top of my head, there were people at times in the last decade absolutely convinced that the following were the guys to do the job, and I include myself in this delusion. (not to mention van gaal and mourinho).. I don't want anybody to tell me with a straight face that any of them would have done the job in hindsight, and if you do, then you better point to some evidence that they were succesful since the links.
Potter, Pochettino, Enrique, Allegri, Rogers, Blanc, Zidane, Jardim was ALL the rage, fecking Conte, Deschamps, Low, Nagelsmann. Going back to post Moyes among the bookies names were Capello, de Boer, Laudrup....the list goes on and on and on. Stop for the love of god having your head turned by any manager, no matter how good, who will just be coming into the same disjointed shit show and let a manager rebuild an entire dressing room, only keeping the players he'd identified as good enough and promoting the youth he wants. What have we got to lose.
You realise we can read your previous posts, right?
You've consistently said that he sticks to his philosophies, apart from as recently as a month ago where you were talking about how he was setting the team out in complete opposition of his principles to prove a point?
Or when you were criticising him for adapting his play style to the "United way"?
Or when you couldn't even identify his style?
Or when you were saying his style was "make it up as you go along"?
I've not even had to go back further than November to find these.
If I go back further, you go from criticising the lack of transfer structure causing us to waste money to pinning money wasted entirely on Ten Hag, and you've gone from claiming we'd have won the quadruple if he was properly supported in his first summer and stating that you believed he'd win us a PL and CL double within five seasons to going on about "Dutch" philosophies being unsuccessful.
We've had one 'article' criticising Ten Hag for sticking rigidly to his style of play despite the lack of quality at his disposal and suddenly you've agreed with this take the entire time, despite not even being able to identify his style of play and criticising him for adapting his style of play literally a month ago, as well as previously claiming that he should simply be able to coach the players to do what he wants.
The only thing you've done with consistency is be incredibly inconsistent and reactionary with your supposed views.
It'd have been a bit mad if you were calling for his sacking then.
I'm not sure when the flip switched with you, but it's very easy to prove that once it did, you just wanted him sacked, and anything you'd previously said can be instantly disregarded if a new criticism comes along and contradicts it.
You can't expect anyone to take anything you say (at least on this issue) remotely seriously when one minute you're saying Ten Hag isn't a top manager because he's adapting his style of play to suit one "relevant 20+ years ago" and that he's "doing the opposite" of his preferred style to prove some sort of point about the squad, then the next you turn around and say he's been stubbornly unwavering from his preferred style.
Any legitimate criticisms you may have of him simply can't be taken in good faith because while there are concerns to be had about certain things, your track record suggests you'd be equally supportive of contradictory analysis if it was critical of Ten Hag.
I think because we dont have a proper dof or recruitment department. It will probably take 5 years to sort this squad out. Once that is rectified by Ineos (hopefully) that should happen anyway despite manager
Managing the biggest club in the world ain’t no easy task.
Looking at other teams long wait for a leagues title…
Arsenal 1 league title in 20 years.
Liverpool 1 league title in 34 years
United 10 years and counting.
This is a very difficult period for EtH. I hope he has the character to survive, but it’s not going to be easy.
Looking at other teams long wait for a leagues title…
Arsenal 1 league title in 20 years.
Liverpool 1 league title in 34 years
United 10 years and counting.
This is a very difficult period for EtH. I hope he has the character to survive, but it’s not going to be easy.
Probably because the two most successful English clubs in the past decade have had their managers for eight years and seven years, and the club emerging as a potential third title challenger has had theirs for four and required a bedding in period of around three seasons before results picked up, yet our fan base seems to think one and a bit seasons is enough regardless of massive injury issues affecting on-field performances and numerous off-field issues casting a massive shadow over the club.
Ideally, your manager will stick around for a long time, because that means things are going consistently well. It's hard for things to go consistently well when reaching a third season is considered a long tenure.
Promote this guy.
I get what you're saying, but I just think Ancelotti would be good because of his general quality as a manager. I know he didn't take Everton to Europe in his time there, but he got them playing well and they had a worse squad at the time than we do now. Obviously he wouldn't be expected to come here and stay for ages, but if there isn't a clear and obvious top candidate someone like Ancelotti would be very good imo.
Getting rid of half the squad isn't feasible and sacking the manager evidently doesn't solve much at all.
Before all that you need a proper DoF or may as well not bother but, even earlier, must fix the root problem of it all which is the club being run on a different wavelength were players are assets on a balance sheet first, marketability after and not all that much for what they actually do on a football pitch. That's were the player power springs from.
Frankly, people have always ridiculed Ole, but without changing the above the best we could hope for is something akin to the trajectory Vibes FC was on until the signing of PRonaldo rocked the boat and made it descend into the chaos that last couple of months were.
Before all that you need a proper DoF or may as well not bother but, even earlier, must fix the root problem of it all which is the club being run on a different wavelength were players are assets on a balance sheet first, marketability after and not all that much for what they actually do on a football pitch. That's were the player power springs from.
Frankly, people have always ridiculed Ole, but without changing the above the best we could hope for is something akin to the trajectory Vibes FC was on until the signing of PRonaldo rocked the boat and made it descend into the chaos that last couple of months were.
He buys Mason Mount and Amrabat instead of Declan Rice.
We haven't even bought Amrabat because we couldn't afford him and Rice cost twice as much as Mount.
Chelsea is the second most successful English clubs in the past decade.
Even if you meant Liverpool and City, you can't be serious to compare ETH to Klopp and Pep right? Reputation wise is already not comparable. The improvement wise, these two managers had in their first 3 season was very linear trajectory. The philosophy behind their playing style is non negotiable. Someone without a belief in his method is unlikely to go the long way, let alone compare to two of the best managers currently.
You made it sound like Pep went handful of seasons during his time at City trophyless, or Klopp team looked like Mourinho football for years before success came.
If there is easy to find another Pep, Klopp; why would we keep looking for another SAF (running the whole club like a DOF on top of first team coaching).
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Alright, two of the most successful sides then.
I'm not comparing Ten Hag to them, I'm just highlighting that a revolving door approach has proven equally as unsuitable and that three of the four longest serving PL managers happen to be at the helm of arguably the three best sides in the league.
There's a middle ground between giving a manager 5-10 seasons and sacking them within two or three.
I wavered a little post-Newcastle but the last few days and the media and leaks etc. have solidified my view
I'm 100% backing the guy to the end.
I'm 100% backing the guy to the end.
Comparing favorably to the best outcome is very lazy. There are a host of other bad outcome. Is Chelsea sacking Potter last season unfair? What if ETH is our Emery version? Should we not progress to Arteta phase?
Which team would automatically give manager at least 4 seasons when evidence of regression was stacking against the manager?
The issue with ETH is that he now looks lost at what to do. We're neither good deep block, nor good in possession, nor gung ho gen gen pressing team. It's not about purely result, but building an identity, foundation for future. He can't believe in what previous made him an exciting coach at Ajax, what's the point of the fan to trust himself now?
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I reckon if the leaks are true, it's probably only Sancho, maybe Varane (kind of doubt it), and maybe Casameiro (doubt it). Can't see anyone else really. Would much rather purge any of those than ETH.
I wish him luck. This walk is tougher than anything he had in the past. Unlike in Eredisive, there are enough teams strong enough to take advantage of even some minor missteps.
I don't think it's necessarily players...
If you are suggesting it's completely fabricated i would not put it past the "media".
Exactly. Just remove them three from the team and ETH will show what he can do.
I'm suggesting it's people like Arnold/Murtough or other potentially disgruntled employees about to get canned.
It's something people don't seem to be considering much. Arnold leaked stuff before.
In modern football at a club of United magnitude he gets enough funds to proceed with rebuild much quicker than it took in the 80s when you couldn’t just grab whoever you liked. Different circumstances.
Yes but you have to assume he spends the funds well, and he has the right support and that the modern players hooked on social media and player power will warm to his cold discipline.
Back in his time he could ban twitter across the whole club and get away with it. Not so much now.
Would be peak United if our CEO was leaking info to fecking MEN
The players are certainly not bad enough to be one of the worst to watch teams in the league, and the directors/CEO did not really prevent him from getting £400m of players of his choice, he’s been supported heavily by them.
We can of course give him £1billion and allow him to build a whole new squad of his choice (it’s already been established that he demands full control over transfers, hence Rangnick departure) but I am quite certain it would not make us better unless we also move the club to Groningen.
It can be true that Ten Hag turns out not be the one while simultaneously being true that a club, ideally, wants their manager sticking around for a while. As I said, it's a sign that things are going consistently well.
There's also a middle ground between blindly giving a manager 5 years regardless of results and sacking him at the first bump in the road.
Potter is an awful example given he won just six of 21 league games, half of which were his first three games, and had the worst record of any of Chelsea's Premier League managers. He was clearly out of his depth.
I'm also not sure Emery is a great example, given that he had Arsenal finishing 5th in his first season (they finished 6th in Wenger's last and fifth the season before), and he was sacked after a poor run saw them drop from 3rd to 8th, and Arteta only managed to salvage 8th on the final day, finished there again the following season, and only managed to match Emery's 5th placed finish in his third season. Emery went on to win the Europa League and reach the CL semis with Villarreal, and turned a relegation threatened Villa side into a decent top half team, currently competing for a CL spot, and are sat top of their Conference League group having won four from five. It's not a massive stretch to think that he could have done alright with Arsenal had they not pulled the trigger at the first sign of trouble.
Again, Ten Hag might not be the one, but he took us to 3rd and won us a cup last season, and that was with us being in complete disarray the season before and having to replace Ronaldo with Weghorst mid-season. He's earned more than 14 games of a heavily disrupted second campaign.
I’d trust Fergie’s ability to adapt, he managed in virtually three different eras with overwhelming succcess in all of them.
It’s disrespectful to the man to even mention him in this thread.
If SAF came into United and spent what we have on Antony, Mount, Onana, Hojlund etc he would deserve to lose his job, especially if he set us up how we’ve been for most of the season.
Who in this current squad is causing all the fuss then because we was blaming Pogba and Lingard for years
I'm not the one that introduced him into the thread?
SAF isn't a DoF so I don't care about managerial mistakes in transfer targets. There should be a structure that doesn't give the manager sole say.
Point being, his disciplinarian style probably wouldn't work as well today as it did before.
It was ETH’s condition when he joined the club and the reason why Rangnick left. He wanted authority over transfers.
We were dumb to allow this to happen but he should have also known his limitations. The whole concept of trying to recreate his Ajax team here was ludicrous to begin with and all sides, him included, should have realized that.
The current manager doesn’t have sole say, this has been repeatedly established and isn’t a valid excuse for Ten Hag and Murtough creating a mess of a squad. SAF was a world class manager including having a big day on transfers and would 100% adapt to the modern game, it’s not that much different now to when he retired 10 years ago.
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