Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Yeah, he walked into a mess, but he needs to be made accountable too for the rod for his own back that he's made. I like him, but he's made too many poor decisions, and I don't really feel that there's a way back.

Agreed.

We should also remember that the Ronaldo problem stemmed from him believing Ronaldo wasn’t suited to a high press game, something that we’ve now completely abandoned regardless.
Mount was apparently signed because he has great pressing stats, Antony is very good at this, as is Höjlund, yey we don’t even attempt it these days, as we instead revert to some utterly shite version of Ole-ball with the same old faces sitting deep in a back 4.

I’d like to feel he’ll suddenly have us pressing high again and much better in possession when everyone is back fit, but I see no signs of it, with Mount, Varane & Antony out of favour and our tactics/play not resembling it in the slightest.

As much as I like the bloke, I feel he shoots himself in the foot with his severe lack of conviction.

 

[MadMike]

I personally find the argument of “downing tools” much lazier.

Extremely lazy and delusional.

Apart from Rashford who else has played like they were lazy or downing tools? And don't say Martial because he's been like that for 5+ years, his work-rate (or lack thereof) is at least consistent. To watch the way play and not find a problem with the tactics, but claim that players are downing tools instead is I repeat delusional.

The players (most at least, from what I can see) are trying and we have had quite a few late-game recoveries if anything. But the playstyle is chaotic and we surrender midfield control (resorting to hoofball) while we see the manager sitting on the bench doing nothing at all to change it. And picking the same formation/style game, after game, after game.

 

[Rista]

Its not nonsense. It happens literally every 18 months or so in the past 7 years. It's outstanding how wide of the mark you are

What happens, things go bad? That must be unique to United. None of the sackings happened out of the blue. Pretty much every manager we've had post SAF struggled for quite a bit of time before getting sacked. And most of them had periods of players pulling off performances to keep us above water. Literally the laziest argument ever.

 

[VP89]

What happens, things go bad? That must be unique to United. None of the sackings happened out of the blue. Pretty much every manager we've had post SAF struggled for quite a bit of time before getting sacked. And most of them had periods of players pulling off performances to keep us above water. Literally the laziest argument ever.

Yes it's almost like a shit structure and weak squad mentality can only get you so far. But yeah let's sack the manager every time and overlook the actual problem at hand jesus wept.

 

[VP89]

I personally find the argument of “downing tools” much lazier.

Thats not the whole argument though. Downing tools is just a short way of way of saying there are systemic structural and cultural problems at the club, and weeding them out has a lot of pain by way of on pitch performances and results before it gets better. Irrespective of who is on the manager hotseat.

The lazy argument is saying "blargh manager is a problem again innit" when some people fail to recognise its impossible to succeed beyond a small cup and top 4 with the wider problems at hand with the club. It doesn't matter if it's a disciplinarian, an arm round the shoulder, a tactician, a blend, whatever.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Perhaps. For me it is more to do with the players he has at his disposal. A lot of them just aren't good enough and don't want to work hard enough to make it work.

The guy has brought in his own goalkeeper, centre back, 2 x left back, holding midfielder, attacking midfielder, second attacking midfielder, a striker, and a right winger. That’s almost an entire team, and he has no conviction of the players that he earlier cast aside who suddenly becoming important to him again; as his own players sit on the bench and watch equally dog shit performances. The excuse he doesn’t have the right players doesn’t wash. Newcastle certainly don’t have the right players in that sense yet the manager has them playing in a style they believe in because he has the conviction of his style, it worked at Bournemouth and it’s working for him at Newcastle because he believes whole heartedly in it, and the players do too because of that.

It’s pretty clear our players look confused as feck as to what the manager wants .

 

[justsomebloke]

Perhaps. For me it is more to do with the players he has at his disposal. A lot of them just aren't good enough and don't want to work hard enough to make it work.

A lot of them have also been brought in by EtH. Eleven of them, to be precise. I simply don't think there's a convincing case that but for the injuries and lingering inescapable squad weaknesses, we'd be on a good track. We are a malfunctioning team that has consistently performed below reasonable expectation relative to our squad for the whole season. With few to no signs of any fundamental improvement - in fact, we are lucky to have as many points as we have. There is no reasonable way to square that picture with a notion that EtH has done a good job this season.

That said, I'm not for booting him out. Yet. But that's the direction things are plainly heading in.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

A lot of them have also been brought in by EtH. Eleven of them, to be precise. I simply don't think there's a convincing case that but for the injuries and lingering inescapable squad weaknesses, we'd be on a good track. We are a malfunctioning team that has consistently performed below reasonable expectation relative to our squad for the whole season. With few to no signs of any fundamental improvement - in fact, we are lucky to have as many points as we have. There is no reasonable way to square that picture with a notion that EtH has done a good job this season.

That said, I'm not for booting him out. Yet. But that's the direction things are plainly heading in.

No question for me that with INEOS coming in and likely appointing a new CEO and director of football, along with the fact that we’ve had a large injury list, should mean that whatever happens over the next few weeks, we should and will wait to replace him until he has many more players available to show that can turn a corner for him.
I personally find it unlikely, because he seems to have completely abandoned any sort of pressing or possession system and all of the players currently missing want to play in a system like that so I don’t see how he can switch it on and off. It’s either there in training every day or it’s not, and he’s made a decision to keep some of those players who are better at pressing and in possession on the bench so clearly that is not what he’s working towards currently.

 

[Rista]

Yes it's almost like a shit structure and weak squad mentality can only get you so far. But yeah let's sack the manager every time and overlook the actual problem at hand jesus wept.

Let's sack the manager because he's doing a bad job, it's as simple as that. It's pretty funny seeing you blame everything but the manager

 

[Oranges038]

The guy has brought in his own goalkeeper, centre back, 2 x left back, holding midfielder, attacking midfielder, second attacking midfielder, a striker, and a right winger. That’s almost an entire team, and he has no conviction of the players that he earlier cast aside who suddenly becoming important to him again; as his own players sit on the bench and watch equally dog shit performances. The excuse he doesn’t have the right players doesn’t wash. Newcastle certainly don’t have the right players in that sense yet the manager has them playing in a style they believe in because he has the conviction of his style, it worked at Bournemouth and it’s working for him at Newcastle because he believes whole heartedly in it, and the players do too because of that.

It’s pretty clear our players look confused as feck as to what the manager wants .

Because most of them aren't good enough and never have been. Yes, it's his fault for picking them, but if he was fully backed up by the club in getting rid, several of those players would be gone and replaced by now.

How many of his signings started against Newcastle and how many came off the bench?

He's having to rely on most of the same players who weren't good enough under LVG, Jose, Ole or Ragnick. Doesn't matter what they are asked to do, they are seemingly incapable of making it work.

 

[VP89]

The guy has brought in his own goalkeeper, centre back, 2 x left back, holding midfielder, attacking midfielder, second attacking midfielder, a striker, and a right winger. That’s almost an entire team, and he has no conviction of the players that he earlier cast aside who suddenly becoming important to him again; as his own players sit on the bench and watch equally dog shit performances. The excuse he doesn’t have the right players doesn’t wash. Newcastle certainly don’t have the right players in that sense yet the manager has them playing in a style they believe in because he has the conviction of his style, it worked at Bournemouth and it’s working for him at Newcastle because he believes whole heartedly in it, and the players do too because of that.

It’s pretty clear our players look confused as feck as to what the manager wants .

The holding midfielder, the left back, the center back and the other midfielder he bought have been injured for extended periods. And he still has players who suit the previous regime which he's trying to work with.

Did you believe you should see big improvements in season 2? That's a shame. This shit will take ages to fix, we basically have had no CEO or DoF or scouting, we have a squad that want to throw the towel in (around 8-9 players from the old regime are still here which is easily enough to swing the dressing room whilst the managers signings are out too ).

This will take time, a lot of time. And it's going to get bad before it gets better.

 

[VP89]

Let's sack the manager because he's doing a bad job, it's as simple as that. It's pretty funny seeing you blame everything but the manager

Oh the manager has made mistakes. But not sackable ones. Your lazy argument of let's blame the manager every time has been seen before. It's why we are in this state for 7-8 years, as its the same logic as the shit people running the club.

 

[pocco]

No question for me that with INEOS coming in and likely appointing a new CEO and director of football, along with the fact that we’ve had a large injury list, should mean that whatever happens over the next few weeks, we should and will wait to replace him until he has many more players available to show that can turn a corner for him.
I personally find it unlikely, because he seems to have completely abandoned any sort of pressing or possession system and all of the players currently missing want to play in a system like that so I don’t see how he can switch it on and off. It’s either there in training every day or it’s not, and he’s made a decision to keep some of those players who are better at pressing and in possession on the bench so clearly that is not what he’s working towards currently.

If it's true that INEOS and the new DoF will be taking over recruitment and will be deciding on the type of football we want to play, I can see them at loggerheads early doors. Right now what he's producing isn't going to be the type of football they will be asking for for obvious reasons. Even so, I think they'll want to put their own mark on things and will wait for him to slip up and he'll be gone. I could believe the stories about them talking to Ancelotti, it would be a smart first move for them.

 

[pocco]

Oh the manager has made mistakes. But not sackable ones. Your lazy argument of let's blame the manager every time has been seen before. It's why we are in this state for 7-8 years, as its the same logic as the shit people running the club.

They keep hiring the wrong managers, simple as that.

 

[Smithy89]

His comments post Newcastle were Moyes level of embarrassment when he was here, sounded like a desperate fan trying to back his nonsense, blinded by the fact they can't admit they're wrong about him.

 

[VP89]

They keep hiring the wrong managers, simple as that.

Name a manager that does better with the shit CEO, shit DoF, shit scouts and weak squad mentality. Whilst needing to win and challenge for top 4 and cups from season 1.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Its not nonsense. It happens literally every 18 months or so in the past 7 years. It's outstanding how wide of the mark you are

It literally doesn’t happen every 18 months, it has literally never happened, unless we are talking about the current time with ETH.
Moyes was utter dog shit and the players started playing like shit almost from day one and it lasted a matter of months, not even over a year.
LVG didn’t have players downing tools at all, in fact he won the FA Cup on his final day as manager, so I’m not sure how that equates to a players downing tools on him. He was replaced because the football had been boring for two years and Mourinho was available.

Mourinho’s second season after 24 months was his best and our greatest points total since Ferguson. He didn’t have players down in tools on him. What happened was that after the second season he didn’t get his way in the transfer market and he hit the self destruct button.

The only manager you can make an argument for is Ole and he was so liked by all the players that it seems like a ridiculous argument to imagine that they downed tools on him, and even then that was also after 30 months.

It’s the most ridiculous and lazy argument imaginable.

 

[Alex99]

They keep hiring the wrong managers, simple as that.

This is about the laziest take of all.

Let's not acknowledge or address any other issues. Just keep sacking managers and eventually we'll find one that can work through the shit.

Sure.

 

[VP89]

It literally doesn’t happen every 17 months, it has literally never happened, unless we are talking about the current time with ETH.
Moyes was utter dog shit and the players started playing like shit almost from day one and it lasted a matter of months, not even over a year.
LVG didn’t have players downing tools at all, in fact he won the FA Cup on his final day as manager, so I’m not sure how that equates to a players downing tools on him. He was replaced because the football had been boring for two years and Mourinho was available.

Mourinho’s second season after 24 months was his best and our greatest points total since Ferguson. He didn’t have players down in tools on him. What happened was that after the second season he didn’t get his way in the transfer market and he hit the self destruct button.

The only manager you can make an argument for is Ole and he was so liked by all the players that it seems like a ridiculous argument to imagine that they downed tools on him, and even then that was also after 30 months.

It’s the most ridiculous and lazy argument imaginable.

fecking hell this is such a bad post I just can't be fecked with debating anymore.

 

[pocco]

Name a manager that does better with the shit CEO, shit DoF, shit scouts and weak squad mentality. Whilst needing to win and challenge for top 4 and cups from season 1.

Eddie Howe. Because he did it at Newcastle who were in turmoil before even spending a penny, therefore all those aspects didn't come into play.

Not suggesting we appoint Howe, but there you go.

 

[Alex99]

Eddie Howe.

When has Eddie Howe ever proven that?

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Name a manager that does better with the shit CEO, shit DoF, shit scouts and weak squad mentality. Whilst needing to win and challenge for top 4 and cups from season 1.

I doubt you’ll find a single poster on here who doesn’t agree with you that things need to change from the top down at the club, and hopefully that will happen within the next few weeks.

However, with the players available, 11 of them brought him by the manager himself, he absolutely should by now be showing that he can impose a style on these players, and that we don’t look by one of the worst sides in the league every week.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

fecking hell this is such a thorough dismantling of my ludricrous “literal” claim I just can't be fecked with debating anymore.

Fixed

 

[VP89]

I doubt you’ll find a single poster on here who doesn’t agree with you that things need to change from the top down at the club, and hopefully that will happen within the next few weeks.

However, with the players available, 11 of them brought him by the manager himself, he absolutely should by now be showing that he can impose a style on these players, and that we don’t look by one of the worst sides in the league every week.

Yes, but he's had huge systemic injuries which massively sets him back. Plus there are evidently still a couple of bad apples in the squad. Which is why this shit takes way more time than you think.

 

[pocco]

When has Eddie Howe ever proven that?

He came in at Newcastle who were near the relegation zone, and if I remember right, they had the best form in the league for the rest of that season. Then he gets them top 4 and a cup final. With a worse squad than we have.

 

[MadMike]

Because most of them aren't good enough and never have been. Yes, it's his fault for picking them, but if he was fully backed up by the club in getting rid, several of those players would be gone and replaced by now.

How many of his signings started against Newcastle and how many came off the bench?

He's having to rely on most of the same players who weren't good enough under LVG, Jose, Ole or Ragnick. Doesn't matter what they are asked to do, they are seemingly incapable of making it work.

What the literal feck are you talking about? Where have you been over the last 18 months? In a haze?

He was backed up over Ronaldo by the board. He was given license to boot DDG after the player had agreed a contract with the club. He was allowed to bench Maguire, Sancho and now Varane, some of the most expensive signings of the club, with absolutely 0 repercussions. No one is making him play anyone. He has been given full license and backing so far.

The fact he picks some (not most) of the same players is because his signings are not better. Which players did he inherit from the LVG era? Shaw, Rashford and Martial. So why is he still playing Shaw? Well because he's the best LB at the club, miles ahead of his signing Malacia. Why is he still playing Rashford and on the RW? Well, likely because he carried the team with 30 goals last season while Antony has done sweet fa. Martial is now merely a bench player yet not doing any worse than 70m singing Hojlund. Why is he playing Fernandes (from Ole era)? Because he's the best performing AM at the club and Mount is much inferior. Why is he playing McTominay (from Jose era)? Who the feck knows, he signed Amrabat and Mount to supposedly not have to play him, but sure as feck no one is making him play McTominay.

Without some of the good players he inherited, he would have an even worse squad. None of his signings (well, perhaps aside Martinez) have made any impact. And he was given a spending budget of almost 400m. What you are saying is straight up lunacy.

 

[VP89]

Fixed

No, trust me, I can't be bothered to micro analyse bullshit. Take 18 months to 24, it doesn't change the broader point that players down tools over and over again and the club has feck all support structure.

You're so hung up over arbitrary timeliness that you choose to be obtuse and miss the actual fecking point. It's so tiresome and I can't be fecked to indulge in the nonsense of debating a point of a point.

What's worse is you just resort to "but he bought player so we must be good now!" it's just such a basic argument where you purposely ignore the big injuries, yes the human errors but also the dressing room unrest that isn't down to him but a bad mentality, the fact that his higher ups are shit and so on. You just think it's championship manager and transfers will fix. It's really tiresome.

Yes he's made mistakes, yes our football has been bad. But there's so much other shit that's causing our football to be bad that's actually not down to him.

 

[pocco]

I doubt you’ll find a single poster on here who doesn’t agree with you that things need to change from the top down at the club, and hopefully that will happen within the next few weeks.

However, with the players available, 11 of them brought him by the manager himself, he absolutely should by now be showing that he can impose a style on these players, and that we don’t look by one of the worst sides in the league every week.

100%. Once we've sorted this manager out I'll be gunning for the players that I think are to blame. I'm one of the few who stuck to my guns over Rashford last season and was laughed at by some of the happy clapping idiots that were falling for it once again.

As you said, we're already in the process of sorting the structure.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Yes, but he's had huge systemic injuries which massively sets him back. Plus there are evidently still a couple of bad apples in the squad. Which is why this shit takes way more time than you think.

it’s not difficult to remove bad apples from the team. He has 11 of his own players and some other players in the squad who clearly have great attitudes. There is more than enough there for him to be getting his squad playing decent football. As it currently stands, he’s actually keeping some of his players on the bench for the likes of McTom, Maguire and AWB, all players that he has previously wanted to get rid of.

As I say, I think the takeover/investment will take a few weeks and by then he should have a much healthier squad and I personally just don’t see how he will switch an on button to completely different tactics than what we have seen since the league cup final. I hope so and I hope he does get that time but I just don’t see it.

 

[Sarni]

What the literal feck are you talking about? Where have you been over the last 18 months? In a haze?

He was backed up over Ronaldo by the board. He was given license to boot DDG after the player had a greed a contract with the club. He was allowed to bench Maguire, Sancho and now Varane, some of the most expensive signings of the club, with absolutely 0 repercussions. No one is making him play anyone. He has been given full license and backing so far.

The fact he picks some (not most) of the same players is because he is not playing his own signings. Which is because his signings are not performing. Which players did he inherit from the LVG era, Shaw, Rashford and Martial. So why is he still playing Shaw? Because he's the best LB at the club, miles ahead of his signing Malacia. Why is he still playing Rashford and on the RW? Well, likely because he carried the team with 30 goals last season while Antony has done sweet fa. Martial is now merely bench player yet not doing any worse than Hojlund. Why is he playing Fernandes? Because he's the best performing AM at the club and Mount is much inferior.

Without some of the good players he inherited, he would have an even worse squad. None of his signings (well, perhaps aside Martinez) have made any impact. And he was given a spending budget of almost 400m.

What you are saying is straight up lunacy.

Unbelievable how his fans are still clinging to 'he hasn't been supported enough by the club' argument.

He has literally been allowed to boot out two big name players and write off a 75m asset completely, has been allowed to completely marginalize two expensive, experienced defenders, on top of being allowed to spend over 400m on transfers with nobody interfering with his choices, which led to him bringing mostly his former players and his son's clients. I don't remember another manager being given so much authority and freedom in his first years at a club, except maybe Pep. Even Klopp was questioned on his transfer targets.

But yeah, he's been abysmal this season simply because the board has let him down, the players have let him down, the fans have let him down. Everybody letting poor Erik down.

 

[pocco]

Yes, but he's had huge systemic injuries which massively sets him back. Plus there are evidently still a couple of bad apples in the squad. Which is why this shit takes way more time than you think.

Who are the bad apples?

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

No, trust me, I can't be bothered to micro analyse bullshit. Take 18 months to 24, it doesn't change the broader point that players down tools over and over again and the club has feck all support structure.

You're so hung up over arbitrary timeliness that you choose to be obtuse and miss the actual fecking point. It's so tiresome and I can't be fecked to indulge in the nonsense of debating a point of a point.

What's worse is you just resort to "but he bought player so we must be good now!" it's just such a basic argument where you purposely ignore the big injuries, yes the human errors but also the dressing room unrest that isn't down to him but a bad mentality, the fact that his higher ups are shit and so on. You just think it's championship manager and transfers will fix. It's really tiresome.

Yes he's made mistakes, yes our football has been bad. But there's so much other shit that's causing our football to be bad that's actually not down to him.

i’m not hung up at all. It’s pretty clear that David Moyes lost the squad immediately, and it was a squad full of great attitude that Fergie had built.

Explained to me also, how winning and FA Cup Final is downing tools?

 

[VP89]

it’s not difficult to remove bad apples from the team.

Yes it fecking is. I literally stopped reading after this sentence because it's outstanding how silly this point is. You can't just chuck out sancho for example, without huge turbulence. You can't chuck out ronaldo without a circus.

 

[pocco]

What the literal feck are you talking about? Where have you been over the last 18 months? In a haze?

He was backed up over Ronaldo by the board. He was given license to boot DDG after the player had a greed a contract with the club. He was allowed to bench Maguire, Sancho and now Varane, some of the most expensive signings of the club, with absolutely 0 repercussions. No one is making him play anyone. He has been given full license and backing so far.

The fact he picks some (not most) of the same players is because he is not playing his own signings. Which is because his signings are not performing. Which players did he inherit from the LVG era, Shaw, Rashford and Martial. So why is he still playing Shaw? Because he's the best LB at the club, miles ahead of his signing Malacia. Why is he still playing Rashford and on the RW? Well, likely because he carried the team with 30 goals last season while Antony has done sweet fa. Martial is now merely bench player yet not doing any worse than Hojlund. Why is he playing Fernandes? Because he's the best performing AM at the club and Mount is much inferior.

Without some of the good players he inherited, he would have an even worse squad. None of his signings (well, perhaps aside Martinez) have made any impact. And he was given a spending budget of almost 400m.

What you are saying is straight up lunacy.

Good post. The logic of some of the excuses is incredibly irritating.

 

[VP89]

i’m not hung up at all. It’s pretty clear that David Moyes lost the squad immediately, and it was a squad full of great attitude that Fergie had built.

Explained to me also, how winning and FA Cup Final is downing tools?

Players wil want a cup. If they win a final that doesn't mean they are fighting for a manager. If they play shit over 38 games then that's a bigger sign.

Also look at our route to that FA cup final. Jesus christ you think they didn't down tools because they beat palace in a final? Have a word.

 

[pocco]

Players wil want a cup. If they win a final that doesn't mean they are fighting for a manager. If they play shit over 38 games then that's a bigger sign.

Also look at our route to that FA cup final. Jesus christ you think they didn't down tools because they beat palace in a final? Have a word.

Maybe last season we only got top 4 because the players wanted the CL!

Downing tools implies that they want the manager sacked - I'm not sure they downed tools and got LVG sacked. It was the shite football.

 

[VP89]

Maybe last season we only got top 4 because the players wanted the CL!

Downing tools implies that they want the manager sacked - I'm not sure they downed tools and got LVG sacked. It was the shite football.

Except that's harder to achieve over the course of a season. You can't have a cakewalk to the top 4 but you can to an FA Cup final. Go back and look at LVGs run to the cup.

 

[Rista]

Oh the manager has made mistakes. But not sackable ones. Your lazy argument of let's blame the manager every time has been seen before. It's why we are in this state for 7-8 years, as its the same logic as the shit people running the club.

Sure, blaming managers is why we're in this state. Except nobody would want any of the previous managers near the club now. I wonder why if sacking them was wrong and they should have been given time instead. Almost like they were part of the problem like ETH is now.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Players wil want a cup. If they win a final that doesn't mean they are fighting for a manager. If they play shit over 38 games then that's a bigger sign.

Also look at our route to that FA cup final. Jesus christ you think they didn't down tools because they beat palace in a final? Have a word.

West Ham in quarters, Everton in semis?

We won 8 of our last 12 games with LVG, including a one nil win away to City in the league & an FA Cup. I’ll ask again, how the feck are you calling that downing tools?

 

[VP89]

Sure, blaming managers is why we're in this state. Except nobody would want any of the previous managers near the club now. I wonder why if sacking them was wrong and they should have been given time instead. Almost like they were part of the problem like ETH is now.

The big difference being ETH was an overwhelming favourite wish for the fans to come in and still has big support.

Whereas the others were always split to put it nicely.