Good vibes managers rarely succeed after a year in the job.
I know plenty who were calling for us to move on from Ole when we offered him a massive contract extension.
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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Good vibes managers rarely succeed after a year in the job.
I know plenty who were calling for us to move on from Ole when we offered him a massive contract extension.
I wouldn’t care if we lost by 3 if we were the better side and learnt from our mistakes.
We’ll be second to every ball, implode after the first goal and ten Hag will bemoan a throw in given incorrectly as the source of our problems
If we lost by more than 3, I'd struggle to call us 'the better side'
We're not going to be the better side vs Liverpool at any time. I've made peace with that. What I've not made peace with is another drubbing at that cesspit.
I doubt he will be still the manager when we play Liverpool if the rumours circulating in the media this morning that Sir Jim will start work early next week are true.
- No way would most people have made Ole permanent - there was zero pressure to do so. Anyone with a sliver of logic would have kept options open until the end of the season, especially with Ole being a massive fan - he wasn't going anywhere if we offered him the job.
- Ole extension, again I don't understand why the club did so - no pressure, no real danger of losing him, what was the rush?
- Mou extension. Agreed as, to be fair, most were actually happy with that season.
- Ragnick remains the most bizarre one for me, the man has a very clear skillset and it seemed like the club was ready to plan longer term, like him or loathe him he has the DoF background and network and track record of recommending good players. Enter a new manager and we just bin him off and let ETH run recruiting. So back to the LVG days even though we are supposedly setup differently all these years later.
That isn't a very smart take I think. Obviously nobody wanted ETH to receive advice from RR im terms of how to setup and gameplan. Of course it was about dossiers about the existing players. That he outright dismissed this information, that seemingly was available to him for free is nothing but dumb. Nobody would have forced him to act on the information but to ignore it completely (if that is what happened) doesn't give a good look.
I guess those two "clashed" to a degree because ETH seemed to have a certain expectation about the full setup in terms of decision making. And probably RRs name hasn't been mentioned there so he didn't see the need or ability to involve him. It is a feck up from the indecisive higher ups. And it only lead to one thing: wasting another half a year that could have been used to prepare for ETH.
Thats a good post. Especially the bolded part hits the actual issue home hard. Not sure if I am correct and maybe this is an issue at other clubs as well as soon as you get to know them better but for United, it seems on all levels we have an apparent issue of actual ownership. In the sense of being responsible to fulfill a role or achieve a certain objective like a product owner in business. I feel that in players like Shaw and Lindelof, who seem to be way too comfortable with themselves, even with bad results as long as they weren't the main culprits. Same thing seems to be the modus operandi for Murtough, he seems to be happy to let others take decisions only for him to be able to keep his hands clean.
I think, the challenges involved with running the football side of a club like United are greatly underestimated around here. As fans, it is fecking easy to demand investment, to be smart about stuff that happened in the past and how to quickfix current issues. Not wanting to put the blame away from the higherups, I agree, there were huge mistakes happening and at this point, I'd even be happy if the take the slowest and most tiny incremental steps towards a more positive future but there a some indicators, that this lesson is still not received by anybody in the club.
I really hope that Ratcliffe will install this "entity". That takes ownership, puts accountability on stakeholders, agrees on short-, mid- and longterm plans.
100%.
I am always assuming that people are pretty smart until proven otherwise.
In the case of running a football club, there are so many factors that just makes it a very difficult job or trying t achieve consistent success. From the 3D model complexity to constant moving goal posts due to competition. United has always been a club that goes through periods of success sandwiched by cup runs. Thats our reality.
The other thing is that here is no industry or job in the world that has such intensive scrutiny on a weekly basis for 12 months a year --- From twice-weekly performance evaluation to the off-season transfer debates.
As fans, it's easy to simplify an individual issue or item ---- when the reality is, that there are hundreds of issues floating around, football or non-footballing problems all at the same time.
When you are managing a club you have to take in 360 degree perspective with limitations set contractually, financially/budget etc which all forces priorities which arent often inline with what fans think.
Can clubs maintain this level of consistency for decades on end? Even in a 2 club league like La Liga, RM and Barca will fade in & out.
Will City fade into irrelevance if Pep leaves? Scousers were in a cup team for a couple of decades.
Point is there isnt any obvious formula to making a club great again. It's easy to whinge and criticise the upper management team, but it's another to find the winning formula. The closest and most relevant analysis we can offer really is the football team's performance -- maybe because some of us have played the game.
Any of the management roles above the football manager is just a black hole -- one that none of us have ever been exposed to, to make any solid analysis & conclusions, if we are being honest with ourselves.
Spot on, agree with absolutely everything you just said there, and my posting history will tell you that those were the things I was pointing out back then as well. For some reason we love to give managers which are clearly out of their depth a lot of time.
Another manager for the scrap heap. The players aren't blameless either. It's one big shit show. Garnacho, Mainoo, and Hojlund are the only personal I'd keep around. That says it all.
The Disciplinarian was not going to allow Rangnick to influence decisions, it's quite well documented that it was his one of his conditions to get rid of Rangnick when he joined. He wanted full authority over transfers otherwise he wouldn't have been able to bring all his Ajax players / his son's clients so easily.
It's stupid to give in to these conditions though as he was going to take the job anyway as no other top club was remotely interested in ten Hag anyway.
I honestly don't know what you are trying to say here in relation to the bullets
Some of us were concerned with this back then, it’s even more ridiculous looking back with all the hindsight.
How easily we tend to give in to other club's / players / managers demands is frustrating. Antony is a perfect example, a player nobody else wanted, no other club with similar resources to ours has ever been linked with him and his only transfer moves available from Ajax would have probably been either Saudi or a sideways move to Benfica / a decent German/French team / mid-table PL/Serie A/La Liga team, none of which was going to fetch half of what we paid for him. Yet we agree to pay 85 million, and give him a 10-fold salary increase on top because ETH wants him so badly.
https://x.com/talkintactics/status/1731408233133191498?s=46
Sorry if already shared, but a good breakdown of how awful our press is, due to player selection and taking unnecessary risks.
Sorry if already shared, but a good breakdown of how awful our press is, due to player selection and taking unnecessary risks.
It's rather frightening to know the CEO and management staff are this weak-minded. With this sort of mindset there is no hope for the club going forward without regime change.
I only see a single screenshot, is there more to it?
I'm not a big tactics brain either, what am I missing in this singular shot?
Last season, when we were playing quick passes between the lines, blind passes from one player to another and generally looked quicker and faster on the ball, playing pass and move football. It's all gone to shit this season though. I think he's made a mistake trying to transition into a new set up with the two advanced 8s for whatever reason leaving the lone cm hopelessly isolated.
So with the team struggling with a new set up that doesn't work, I think the pressure has got to him, he's selecting the team weirdly, making team choices that look more like desperate moves (McTominay scores 2 so he gets to play and do feck all in midfield, Rashford gets to play himself into form despite not putting in the basic effort etc) than something a modern thinking coach would do.
He'll probably be gone after the Liverpool game. We'll lurch to another manager who gives clean slates to the same players who have utterly been failures for years. Rinse and repeat. It's all a bit depressing. There is not a single manager available out there who can survive the player power at the football club now. It's ridiculous when you think about it. Most of us grew up watching Fergie and being used to players getting discarded for the greater good. None of that in the post Fergie era. Marcus Rashford will get away with that no effort performance against Newcastle (amongst other diabolical performances.)
I think they're all very fair and plenty at the time didn't want Ole or Jose extended. There were also plenty that thought hiring Ole permanently was madness. These aren't really contentious points tbh.
I somewhat agree you should give a new manager a decent amount of control for the first window - maybe less control specifically - but basically earmark a couple of key players who are important for their style. They should have next to zero control for the second window though aside from having a voice in selecting from targets presented to them by the club, by then it should all be down the scouting team.
This again just misses the point. You guys actively root for the tail wagging the dog.
They could but the managers we have appointed have collectively all attempted a face-lift, rather than the "open heart surgery" Rangnick recommended.
EtH started in a really promising manner in that respect, binning Ronaldo and DDG amongst others, but he's lacked the bottle and conviction to go far enough.
There have been a number of performances from individuals that should have been the end of them. WOULD have been the end of them, under SAF. When you tolerate it one time, you send a message to the rest of the team that slackness is acceptable.
For example, Diego Dalot was a disgrace against Newcastle in the Carabao Cup. I'm not talking about errors or mistakes. I'm talking about not running, not tracking players, taking chances through laziness etc...That should have been it. Dumped into the reserves and frozen out. Bring in a kid from the Academy if you have to.
Likewise, Rashford and Martial should have been gone ages ago. But they're not, they're still here, a leopard never changes their spots and their attitude infects others.
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I realise it’s tough because you want to get rid of players but don’t want to be ripped off and maybe the player makes things difficult but we had a good offer for McTominay in the summer. Lindelof could have been told he had no future here. Dalot could have gone years ago etc.
I know it’s difficult and there’s no getting rid of Martial on that wage unfortunately. Probably Sancho too. I do feel a stronger effort could have been made though and across multiple seasons.
How so?
The players he's brought in you couldn't really say they've been worse than what was there before. The problem is they've just not been good enough overall to see the kind of vast improvement required to be deemed acceptable upgrades.
As limited as Fred was I kind of feel that Amrabat is worse. I also have no idea what Mount is or what he is for... Antony is just limited as well...
I think him dealing with Ronaldo wasn't nearly as impressive as his fans pretend it to be, he actually made him captain just before the break and had virtually no choice but to let him go after Piers interview. It was Ronaldo who exited himself from United not Ten Hag pushing him out.
I'm not personally Ten Hag out, but I'm at the stage where I am much more understanding of those who are.
I think it''s two separate considerations as follows
1. Is Ten Hag's record this season bad enough for him to be sacked - I would find it hard to argue against him being sacked based purely on the results since the League cup win.
2. Will sacking him likely lead to anything improving in the short or long term - I would argue that it won't.
So my point here is, I think if he was fired then he couldn't have many / any complaints; but if sacking him is meant to make things better, I am not sure it changes anything if we are still starting 8 players who got also got Ole fired and refused to do anything Ragnick asked them to do.
I think it''s two separate considerations as follows
1. Is Ten Hag's record this season bad enough for him to be sacked - I would find it hard to argue against him being sacked based purely on the results since the League cup win.
2. Will sacking him likely lead to anything improving in the short or long term - I would argue that it won't.
So my point here is, I think if he was fired then he couldn't have many / any complaints; but if sacking him is meant to make things better, I am not sure it changes anything if we are still starting 8 players who got also got Ole fired and refused to do anything Ragnick asked them to do.
How could he do anything he had no power, players used to get given time off by Murtough without Rangnicks say so. We are an absolute shambles, he knew it and told us what we all suspect, yet he is ridiculed for it.
I would disagree with that personally. I think EtH managed him out....and it was Ronaldo realising he was being managed out that led to him doing that interview.
What I can't understand is why he tolerates the kind of performances we saw from Dalot vs Newcastle in the Carabao or basically any of Rashford/Martial's performances this season. He has this reputation as a disciplinarian but the standards he holds the players to on the pitch, with regard effort and intensity, are far too low. Its quite strange really.
When I look at the managers we have had post fergie, in hindsight Jose, lvg and even ragnick were regrettable sackings based on what we have witnessed up until this point, but I have to put ten hag in the bracket of moyes and ole of knowing that a year down the line it won't be much loss to sack him as there is no style of play, he shows too much favouritism to players and his recruitment is shocking.
It's incredible really what a mess successive managers have made of this.
Put aside winning the big trophies. Just getting together a good all round team that works. None of them have really managed it.
It really shouldn't be difficult to at least achieve that given the money and pull we have/had.
Put aside winning the big trophies. Just getting together a good all round team that works. None of them have really managed it.
It really shouldn't be difficult to at least achieve that given the money and pull we have/had.
Fred was garbage.
Has Onana really been worse than the DDG of the last 5 years?
Has Martinez been any worse than Lindelof or Maguire?
Has Amrabat been any worse than McT or Fred when deployed deep? Mount has only played a few games. But even at that he's not been worse than the those 2. Have Casemiro or Eriksen been any worse in there than those 2?
Has Antony been worse than Rashford or Elanga on the right?
Has Hojlund been any worse up top than Martial or Rashford have been when played up top?
Probably going to need a clean slate approach if/when the 25% sale completes.
If we are going to bin Ten Hag then I'd consider comeone like Carrick as manager and try to get the structure in place over the remainder of the season such that, by the summer they have a clear plan for getting rid of several players and signing several new ones who fit the profile and playing style the club has identified going forward.
As I said before though, I'd not get rid of Ten Hag just yet and hope that he could be better under a better footballing structure. He'd have to agree to give up control of transfers though.
If we are going to bin Ten Hag then I'd consider comeone like Carrick as manager and try to get the structure in place over the remainder of the season such that, by the summer they have a clear plan for getting rid of several players and signing several new ones who fit the profile and playing style the club has identified going forward.
As I said before though, I'd not get rid of Ten Hag just yet and hope that he could be better under a better footballing structure. He'd have to agree to give up control of transfers though.
This is the same space I'm in. Point 2 keeps me from saying it's time to pull the trigger. At this point, we're certainly not getting relegated but we're not pulling top-4. Maybe not even top-6. The players aren't going to do any more for an interim manager than they're doing right now and I don't see the next permanent manager on the horizon. There's just no point to sending ten Hag off at this time. Honestly, there's no point to doing it at all without planning to ship out the worst attitudes of the lot - whoever they may be (and I'm sure Rangnick and ten Hag both have similar lists [Ole too?]).
Clearing out the lot of them, regardless of the cost, is about the only thing that will fix this. Rangnick was spot on - open heart surgery is needed. He didn't say brain surgery would do it. We've tried that now with five permanent managers since SAF and the same issues keep cropping up.
Opinions obviously, but for me the answer to points 1) and 2) is an emphatic yes.
1) Putting the horrendous entertainment value of our football aside; we are 7th in the league table with a negative GD, we are at the precipice of being eliminated in the UCL group stage in a group with Galata and Copenhagen, we are out of the League Cup in a 0-3 trouncing by Newcastle. This is pretty horrific. There are clear signs of regression in both the quality football and results, from this point last year. Nothing is working well on the football pitch. Ole was in the same place when he got sacked.
2) You can argue that it won't, but when Mou got sacked we got a new manager bounce with Ole and when Ole got sacked we got one with Carrick. There's clear evidence that it can work in the short term. I would argue there's little evidence that persisting with ETH will lead to a turn-around and there's more risk in fans and players becoming apathetic, if this is allowed to fester by the board.
Here come the usual post-defeat briefings 
The players are a disgrace let's be honest
I wonder when Erik will get to the point where he trusts the young players in the squad who regardless of anything will run themselves into the ground for the team? Rather than repeatedly selecting experienced players who ghost their way through matches. Not sure how many more times I can be bothered staying awake half the night to watch the likes of Scotty, Marcus and Martial not appear to be willing to make themselves available to receive the ball and run for their team mates.
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