Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[AshRK]

Time + blind faith = Arteta

That's not how our club work. His career would have been finished even before it started.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Funny how some mention arteta, the guy would have been mocked left right and center and called the worst thing to happen to the club after his 8th and 8th finish.

Arteta has not actually won the league or the champions league (or even the europa league) yet.

 

[pocco]

Critical of ETH for all kinds of unforced errors, but his English comms probably aren't any worse than Conte at Chelsea when he was winning a title with them, or Poch when he was shaping that Tottenham team in the early days, or Ranieri at Leicester, let alone in Chelsea days, to name a few. Might or might not be true in your case but this kind of statement tends to come disproportionately from monolingual English-speakers or people who've never had to use their language skills in a professional context. His English is good enough, although you can always refine it - players are used to dealing with ESOL speaker managers in a cosmopolitan changing room environment. The more important thing is how he manages his coaching staff (who convey instructions to players) and the non-verbal side (team set-up, tactical drills and 'plays', in-game changes)...

None of them are at Fergies level either. Fergie had a way of dealing with people. He could get the fans fired up and behind the team, he could deal with the press, the referees, the English contingent of players, even the likes of Ronaldo who saw Fergie as a father like figure. He could pick up a team, who has been beaten or suffered a set back, within a week, and get their minds right and back to winning ways. These are crucial in top level football management. Being good tactically is just the tip of the iceberg, and that's supposedly ETHs selling point. I could never imagine one of our players saying they see Ten Hag as a father like figure, you can just tell by his personality, he has that head teacher, moody shtick going on and it wears thin after a bit.

 

[crossy1686]

I find it strange that people use our signings to condemn any manager not just EtH. Manchester United sign players, not the manager. That said he should be doing better as our head coach.

Do we, as in Manchester United, sign Antony, Mount, Martinez or Malacia without Ten Hag as the manager? Or was it just a happy coincidence that we happened to be shopping in Holland right after we appointed a Dutch manager?

 

[crossy1686]

And that will continue to happen at this club due to enormous pressure. Bring in a new manager with his philosophy, 2 losses and he would be eaten alive by the media and some fans, to the point they abandon their principle for result oriented football. Happened with Van gaal after his loss to Leicester and he integrated Fellaini into the system. Happening again now.

Funny how some mention arteta, the guy would have been mocked left right and center and called the worst thing to happen to the club after his 8th and 8th finish.

Yeah we sure would lucky to have nothing to show for that except one 2nd place finish and one trophy in 4 years.

 

[PoTMS]

I've seen enough to think he's no more than a glorified bald De Boer. I honestly think he would've lost every game and got sacked by Palace too. He's just not cut out for top level football.

 

[el3mel]

You are correct , Liverpool didn’t have to contend with a World Cup mid year.

The point is that Klopp got a pass because of fatigue due to matches. Why does that mean ETH doesn’t deserve the same excuse when injuries have plagued us? We Did ok last season when the squad wasn’t run into the ground and since the squad has look jaded it’s not been right.

Why do we have so many injuries? Is it perhaps the same reason liverpool struggled last season and players being fatigued can actually happen to United players when they play MORE games in a calendar year then Klopps exhausted team last season?

Klopp got a pass thanks to his earlier success with Liverpool. Ten Hag has done feck all at United to warrant getting a pass.

 

[DRJosh]

I still remember Moyes first competitive game as United manager in 2013 at the Community shield win against Wigan. I had no idea we’d be a shadow of our former selves for the next decade and counting under a series of equally clueless managers.

 

[MadMike]

Question, Do you want Murtough to choose it instead?
Don't get it wrong, it's a valid criticism but when you look at the alternative...you'd see why we have this conversation. If we could redo again, I'm sure many still trust ETH to pick target instead of club doing it. Pricetag is also another issue but that different topic

Why does it have to be Murtough? Were these the only two options? That question is built on a strawman argument.

Because didn't ETH win a power struggle to force Rangnick out, so he can get more free reign over picking players?

Ten Hag's role in Rangnick's demise at United

Manchester United and Ralf Rangnick agreed to cut ties at the end of the season in part because of Erik ten Hag's reluctance to work with the German in his proposed consultancy role, sources have told ESPN.

[Source]: https://www.espn.co.uk/football/story/_/id/37629549/ten-hag-role-rangnick-exit

Also, they forced the senior scouts out before ETH's arrival

Senior Manchester United scouts leaving after combined 24 years’ service

Manchester United’s chief scout will leave in the close season and the club’s global head of scouting has gone in moves that may allow an overhaul of recruitment when the expected appointment of Erik ten Hag as the new manager occurs.
[Source]: https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...-united-scouts-leaving-jim-lawlor-marcel-bout

By all accounts ETH wanted and pressed for more transfer power, backed up perhaps by Murtough, only to feck it all up epically. They are obviously both culpable for the current mess. But let's not pretend like there weren't other options.

ETH is even more responsible for me. Because targeting players you know from ex-clubs, signing off on huge sums of money for them and then completely fail to get a tune out of them as a coach... is a cardinal sin.

 

[Amira]

Why does it have to be Murtough? Were these the only two options? That question is built on a strawman argument.

Because didn't ETH win a power struggle to force Rangnick out, so he can get more free reign over picking players?



Also, they forced the senior scouts out before ETH's arrival



By all accounts ETH wanted and pressed for more transfer power, backed up perhaps by Murtough, only to feck it all up epically. They are obviously both culpable for the current mess. But let's not pretend like there weren't other options.

ETH is even more responsible for me. Because targeting players you know from ex-clubs, signing off on huge sums of money for them and then completely fail to get a tune out of them as a coach... is a cardinal sin.

Very well said

 

[AshRK]

Arteta has not actually won the league or the champions league (or even the europa league) yet.

Yeah we sure would lucky to have nothing to show for that except one 2nd place finish and one trophy in 4 years.

I am just saying how saying sack Eth and then giving examples of arteta is just funny. I am not saying to back eth like arteta.

 

[RuudTom83]

The transfer stick is a valid one to beat EtH with, but the conclusions don't need to be as drastic as sacking or taking all responsibility away from the manager.

Just hire a director of football who has a good understanding of the role and align his views with the managers, so together they can take the club forward.

I'm sure EtH is learning about the league all the time, and who he thought was a good fit for English football a year ago, is probably drastically different now.

 

[gaffs]

Our rejects have gone on to win big things. That is not really a strike against him.

I agree. But Potter would be seen as a very uninspiring choice for the new INEOS regime.

 

[FrantikChicken]

The transfer stick is a valid one to beat EtH with, but the conclusions don't need to be as drastic as sacking or taking all responsibility away from the manager.

Just hire a director of football who has a good understanding of the role and align his views with the managers, so together they can take the club forward.

I'm sure EtH is learning about the league all the time, and who he thought was a good fit for English football a year ago, is probably drastically different now.

I’m sorry but we’re not a training wheels club for managers. If you’re hired, you are expected to have done your homework in this regard, along with your support staff and scouting network.

I don’t expect a manager to nail every single transfer, it’s impossible. But to spend insane amounts of money on multiple players who you then don’t know how to get a tune out of because you’re still learning about the league is irresponsible and inept.

 

[fallengt]

Why does it have to be Murtough? Were these the only two options? That question is built on a strawman argument.

Because didn't ETH win a power struggle to force Rangnick out, so he can get more free reign over picking players?



Also, they forced the senior scouts out before ETH's arrival



By all accounts ETH wanted and pressed for more transfer power, backed up perhaps by Murtough, only to feck it all up epically. They are obviously both culpable for the current mess. But let's not pretend like there weren't other options.

ETH is even more responsible for me. Because targeting players you know from ex-clubs, signing off on huge sums of money for them and then completely fail to get a tune out of them as a coach... is a cardinal sin.

Rangsnick had a consultant role. What power did he have? He even made a long rant why club didn't make signings during winter window. Should've ETH at least listened to Rangsnick? sure he should but even then, final judgment would always be on the hands of Murtough, he's their boss.

Your argument is more strawman than mine since Murtough actually has power to veto whatever he doesn't like, unlike Rangsnick. He just chooses not to because he doesn't know better. When a person is at highest position, and choose to do nothing, when thing goes wrong, it's fecking his fault.

The point here being every manager wants certain players, but they won't always get it at a proper run club. Not even Pep get what he wants nor he does scouting at all.
Thing is United is not a proper run club, which is main reason manager is allowed to overthrow head of football department, whom is even more incompetent. It's a scenario where you expect manager to be genius in everything they do to success at United. This should not be the case

See the root of the issue? or we still blame manager after 10 years? If it's the latter, what the point of "Glazers out" then?

 

[IRN-BRUno]

With Arteta being given more time, the obvious difference there is that he was a manager in his first job at an age where he could still be playing. Ten Hag is in his 50s and his first management job was 10 years before taking over here.

There seems to be some belief he's an up-and-coming manager. He's the same age as Simeone, Enrique and Southgate. A year older than Guardiola, Emery, Dyche. 2 years older than Pochettino, 3 years older than Tuchel, Rodgers and Ole. Conte is only 6 months older. None of them would be regarded now as a manager with potential who needs time. So there's no reason for Ten Hag to be seen like that either. Of course he can still be learning, still making small improvements but he's not suddenly going to take a huge step forward. What we see now is pretty much what he's going to be. He wasn't appointed because he might be world class in 5 years time, he's here to do a job now and so far this season he's failing at that.

 

[RuudTom83]

I’m sorry but we’re not a training wheels club for managers. If you’re hired, you are expected to have done your homework in this regard, along with your support staff and scouting network.

I don’t expect a manager to nail every single transfer, it’s impossible. But to spend insane amounts of money on multiple players who you then don’t know how to get a tune out of because you’re still learning about the league is irresponsible and inept.

100% agree with the bold part.

 

[Skills]

I’m sorry but we’re not a training wheels club for managers. If you’re hired, you are expected to have done your homework in this regard, along with your support staff and scouting network.

I don’t expect a manager to nail every single transfer, it’s impossible. But to spend insane amounts of money on multiple players who you then don’t know how to get a tune out of because you’re still learning about the league is irresponsible and inept.

It's almost as if the main requirement for our fans is to have a long term manager. Success/performance is secondary, as long as you can justify keeping someone around for a long time they'll be happy.

It's a weird conundrum as an organisation, because the managers role fulfils another psychological/therapeutic need for a large chunk of our fanbase.

 

[croadyman]

Jay from Stretford Paddock on the podcast was suggesting Erik should take an us against the world siege mentality mindset

 

[subotai]

It's almost as if the main requirement for our fans is to have a long term manager. Success/performance is secondary, as long as you can justify keeping someone around for a long time they'll be happy.

It's a weird conundrum as an organisation, because the managers role fulfils another psychological/therapeutic need for a large chunk of our fanbase.

Sort of.

But it can take years to change the trajectory of a mega-corporation , which is what Utd are (I'd say "we" but I'm not sure I'm part of it any more).

For me, Ten Hag is the man, more so than any others since SAF retired. We aren't going win much in the next few years. and that's fine. But ETH is the best bet we have of turning things around in the next few years.

Who else? Pick something, believe in your convictions, and give it time to flourish.

 

[Egalitard]

With Arteta being given more time, the obvious difference there is that he was a manager in his first job at an age where he could still be playing. Ten Hag is in his 50s and his first management job was 10 years before taking over here.

There seems to be some belief he's an up-and-coming manager. He's the same age as Simeone, Enrique and Southgate. A year older than Guardiola, Emery, Dyche. 2 years older than Pochettino, 3 years older than Tuchel, Rodgers and Ole. Conte is only 6 months older. None of them would be regarded now as a manager with potential who needs time. So there's no reason for Ten Hag to be seen like that either. Of course he can still be learning, still making small improvements but he's not suddenly going to take a huge step forward. What we see now is pretty much what he's going to be. He wasn't appointed because he might be world class in 5 years time, he's here to do a job now and so far this season he's failing at that.

It's not about him getting the time to learn, though. It's about change taking time. From someone who saw the Arteta bad and good times up close - I can assure you the difference was not simply Arteta being a better manager in 2022-23 than in 2021-22. The difference was that our squad was full of crap players and now it is not. I don't think you're in as bad a state as we were - I defy you to identify any current first team United players as bad as Mustafi or Kolsinac - but your squad is not good enough and that's a problem for the manager.

It's an open question whether Ten Hag, given time, will be able to oversee the transition from a bad team of bad players to a good team of good ones. And I would have my reservations given signings like Antony. But personally I would just give him time, if only for him to fail on his own terms. I don't really see what else you can do, because you'll be in the same situation with a new manager if you do sack him.

 

[Chumpsbechumps]

Klopp got a pass thanks to his earlier success with Liverpool. Ten Hag has done feck all at United to warrant getting a pass.

“Klopp having success previously” actually proves how damaging a fatigued squad can have for even the best managers. Ironically this makes your sentiments less relevant because it shows that regardless of ETH record, this year he was up against it. That doesn’t favour in all the other club issues thrown in top of it.

So the question to ask is how exactly can we rate or judge a manager who is managing a club that’s regularly dysfunctional and is trying to now also navigate an issue that a far better run club with a proven manager , struggled to navigate last season.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

It's not about him getting the time to learn, though. It's about change taking time. From someone who saw the Arteta bad and good times up close - I can assure you the difference was not simply Arteta being a better manager in 2022-23 than in 2021-22. The difference was that our squad was full of crap players and now it is not.

Right. But Arteta had an excuse/explanation for why the change would take time: Arsenal's financial capacity and their position in the market.

United does not really have that excuse. Not in the same way.

 

[r0663664]

If I am ETH, I will the board that I don't want to be responsible for any transfer recommendations. I will tell them what position I need and the profile that I need. The responsibility lies with the scouting team to provide 3 targets with data points and video to make decisions.

 

[stefan92]

If I am ETH, I will the board that I don't want to be responsible for any transfer recommendations. I will tell them what position I need and the profile that I need. The responsibility lies with the scouting team to provide 3 targets with data points and video to make decisions.

But you are not ETH and as far as reported he requested more control over tranfers, not less like you would in his place.

 

[el3mel]

“Klopp having success previously” actually proves how damaging a fatigued squad can have for even the best managers. Ironically this makes your sentiments less relevant because it shows that regardless of ETH record, this year he was up against it. That doesn’t favour in all the other club issues thrown in top of it.

So the question to ask is how exactly can we rate or judge a manager who is managing a club that’s regularly dysfunctional and is trying to now also navigate an issue that a far better run club with a proven manager , struggled to navigate last season.

Liverpool was even more dysfunctional when Klopp got the job, yet he didn't need years to make them a stable and well run side. Within a 1.5 years they were a stable top 4 team and in his first CL campaign he reached a final, then won it on his 2nd try. Klopp single handedly led Liverpool to glory. Their board was criticized as much as the Glazers before him.

If a successful manager who led the team to success after success for successive years had a one poor season, it's different than a manager who has achieved feck all yet at the club and after 1.5 years his team has zero style or identity.

A good manager will implement his style of play and identity on players within few months and the results will follow. United fans are the only ones convincing themselves otherwise. The issue with Ten Hag is his team has been crap for nearly a year now and there's no reason to believe this shit will turn into gold except for pure faith and blind optimism. On the pitch, there's nothing indicating this guy is doing anything that will yield results in the future. If anything we're dogshit which means even if we pull out some results it'll be short term rather than an actual project being in progress.

 

[VP89]

Liverpool was even more dysfunctional when Klopp got the job, yet he didn't need years to make them a stable and well run side.

They were in a full on title race the year before he came.

 

[Scandi Red]

They were in a full on title race the year before he came.

I'm also pretty sure it took him roughly 3 years before his team started to play consistently good football. It was shaky kamikaze football until Van Dijk and Alisson arrived for record transfers fees.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

They were in a full on title race the year before he came.

Massive outlier. They finished 6th, 8th, 7th, 2nd, and 6th the five seasons before Klopp.

 

[el3mel]

They were in a full on title race the year before he came.

Oh look, the blind supporter who, even though believes all I'm saying is crap, keep on replying on me regardless.

Then they sold Suarez next year and replaced him with ton of crap players and finished 6th, next one they were hanging around 10th by October when Rodgers were sacked. The 4 seasons before that 2nd spot they finished 6th, 7th, 8th and 7th.

So, in short, this period Liverpool's league spots were, respectively, 6th, 7th, 8th, 7th, 2nd, 6th and were hanging around 10th when Klopp got the job.

Their 2nd spot finish under Rodgers was thanks to Suarez unbelievable form this year not because the board were planning any shit, as they fecked the entire team after he was sold.

 

[el3mel]

I'm also pretty sure it took him roughly 3 years before his team started to play consistently good football. It was shaky kamikaze football until Van Dijk and Alisson arrived for record transfers fees.

Bollocks. Liverpool were playing great attacking football under Klopp even in his first half a season when they finished 8th and reached 2 finals. It obvious was back then he had clear style and the team just needed better defense to fully utilize their potential.

Meanwhile you look at current United and there's zero signs of what we're building for. We look like we want to change the entire team and the whole club's structure to even play good football, not just sign one or two key players like Klopp's Liverpool.

 

[Sarni]

Oh look, the blind supporter who, even though believes all I'm saying is crap, keep on replying on me regardless.

Then they sold Suarez next year and replaced him with ton of crap players and finished 6th, next one they were hanging around 10th by October when Rodgers were sacked. The 4 seasons before that 2nd spot they finished 6th, 7th, 8th and 7th.

So, in short, this period Liverpool's league spots were, respectively, 6th, 7th, 8th, 7th, 2nd, 6th and were hanging around 10th when Klopp got the job.

Their 2nd spot finish under Rodgers was thanks to Suarez unbelievable form this year not because the board were planning any shit, as they fecked the entire team after he was sold.

The team that competed with City for the 2013-14 title was vastly different than the one Klopp inherited in 2016. They lost Suarez, Gerrard and Sterling, and Sturridge was either gone or already playing at a much lower level, and the replacements they brought were mostly of poor quality.

There is plenty of revisionism on Klopp’s tenure as Ten Hag fans are trying to compare them.

 

[Scandi Red]

Bollocks. Liverpool were playing great attacking football under Klopp even in his first half a season when they finished 8th and reached 2 finals

So great attacking football and shite defence? Sounds like shaky kamikaze football to me. Entertaining though, no doubt!

 

[el3mel]

So great attacking football and shite defence? Sounds like shaky kamikaze football to me. Entertaining though, no doubt!

Better than the shit served under Ten Hag every week for a year now, and a sign that with few key players the team will be unlocked. Meanwhile keep on asking for the entire squad and board to be changed before Ten Hag can do half of what Klopp had achieved at Liverpool.

 

[Chumpsbechumps]

Liverpool was even more dysfunctional when Klopp got the job, yet he didn't need years to make them a stable and well run side. Within a 1.5 years they were a stable top 4 team and in his first CL campaign he reached a final, then won it on his 2nd try. Klopp single handedly led Liverpool to glory. Their board was criticized as much as the Glazers before him.

If a successful manager who led the team to success after success for successive years had a one poor season, it's different than a manager who has achieved feck all yet at the club and after 1.5 years his team has zero style or identity.

A good manager will implement his style of play and identity on players within few months and the results will follow. United fans are the only ones convincing themselves otherwise. The issue with Ten Hag is his team has been crap for nearly a year now and there's no reason to believe this shit will turn into gold except for pure faith and blind optimism. On the pitch, there's nothing indicating this guy is doing anything that will yield results in the future. If anything we're dogshit which means even if we pull out some results it'll be short term rather than an actual project being in progress.

That’s not addesssing anything I’ve said. There’s a reason why the football is crap that isn’t entirely down to the manager.

Klopp didn’t have an exhausting season one year after taking over. I’m no pool fan but I can’t imagine Klopp having to manage the kind of drama ETH had season. Liverpool had finished second close to when Klopp signed so he didn’t exactly inherit a disaster. Did he lose Suarez and get a weghorst level replacement in his first season? Did he join a club with question marks over owners and a proven dysfunctional football structure or had Liverpool at least good record of getting something out of players, regardless of


Did he have the same kind of injury issues we have had, in his second season? It’s easier to build your team and when you age your first team players available.

Klopp equally wasn’t winning trophies until a few years so how can you hold it against a manager who is only 18 months there?

ETH had a relatively good first season in most people’s eyes.

I don’t think any manager has had the same kind of issues that ETH has had to navigate. It’s not an excuse it’s an explanation as to why we NEVER have a United manager who gets to see their teams play the way they plannee and why EVERY single player who joined has mostly failed relatively to what we could of reasonably expended from them.

I can’t fathom how some of you think that after 18 months of continual issues, drama, a unique World Cup squeezed in between one our longest run of games in a season ever, injury crisis to first team players no other team has suffered, more goals ruled out and penos against VAR Sh*te, that we should be seeing our managers style of play working ok.

Momentum is vital for any team but we’ve had multiple setbacks, not related to the manager that have made it much harder. Yes, ETH has made mistakes but these have been compounded far more then they should, because of all the other things giving him zero room for error.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

I don’t want him gone yet, mainly because there isn’t a clear solid replacement. But I would also like to see ETH with more technical players, which is what he had at Ajax. Right now half of our squad wouldnt be able to keep up with the style ETH played at Ajax

 

[hobbers]

We signed Casemiro and Eriksen to solve midfield. Now we need to completely replace both of them. We already tried that with Mount and Amrabat, so far a complete failure. Enormous financial cost and loss.

We signed Antony to be the right wing solution. Now we have to completely replace him. Enormous financial cost.

We gave Dalot a big new contract and probably a 1 year extension for AWB while turning down offers for both. Still need to sign a first eleven RB.

Gave Rashford an elite tier contract but he's not an elite tier solution on the left.

Onana will also realistically need upgraded if we ever were to get back on a path to being a title-competing team.

 

[el3mel]

That’s not addesssing anything I’ve said. There’s a reason why the football is crap that isn’t entirely down to the manager.

Klopp didn’t have an exhausting season one year after taking over. I’m no pool fan but I can’t imagine Klopp having to manage the kind of drama ETH had season. Liverpool had finished second close to when Klopp signed so he didn’t exactly inherit a disaster. Did he lose Suarez and get a weghorst level replacement in his first season? Did he join a club with question marks over owners and a proven dysfunctional football structure or had Liverpool at least good record of getting something out of players, regardless of


Did he have the same kind of injury issues we have had, in his second season? It’s easier to build your team and when you age your first team players available.

Klopp equally wasn’t winning trophies until a few years so how can you hold it against a manager who is only 18 months there?

ETH had a relatively good first season in most people’s eyes.

I don’t think any manager has had the same kind of issues that ETH has had to navigate. It’s not an excuse it’s an explanation as to why we NEVER have a United manager who gets to see their teams play the way they plannee and why EVERY single player who joined has mostly failed relatively to what we could of reasonably expended from them.

I can’t fathom how some of you think that after 18 months of continual issues, drama, a unique World Cup squeezed in between one our longest run of games in a season ever, injury crisis to first team players no other team has suffered, more goals ruled out and penos against VAR Sh*te, that we should be seeing our managers style of play working ok.

Momentum is vital for any team but we’ve had multiple setbacks, not related to the manager that have made it much harder. Yes, ETH has made mistakes but these have been compounded far more then they should, because of all the other things giving him zero room for error.

The only thing we are literally asking for is for the team to play watchable football and have some identity on the pitch. Any good manager installs this in his team within the first few months. It's not rocket science, for God's sake. We're not asking to be prime Barca or to win the league. All we're asking for is to have the team play coherent and enjoyable football. You're telling us the entire world need to be aligned for our managers to achieve that. They have to have no injuries, great luck, comfortable schedule, great referring and a full squad in order to achieve just that. Absolutely ridiculous.

Klopp didn’t have an exhausting season one year after taking over. I’m no pool fan but I can’t imagine Klopp having to manage the kind of drama ETH had season. Liverpool had finished second close to when Klopp signed so he didn’t exactly inherit a disaster. Did he lose Suarez and get a weghorst level replacement in his first season? Did he join a club with question marks over owners and a proven dysfunctional football structure or had Liverpool at least good record of getting something out of players, regardless of

Liverpool replaced Suarez with Lambert...

The answer to all these questions is yes. Liverpool's board was slaughtered as much as the Glazers now. Klopp is the sole reason for their success.

As I said above, the 6 seasons before Klopp came they finished 6th, 7th, 8th, 7th, 2nd, 6th. They were 10th when he got the job, yet you're acting like they were a well run club before Klopp or something. Even we under Glazers didn't reach this level.

Finally, the issue isn't this season alone, as it's said multiple times. The team has been crap for months before the last season ended as well.

 

[MadMike]

Rangsnick had a consultant role. What power did he have? He even made a long rant why club didn't make signings during winter window. Should've ETH at least listened to Rangsnick? sure he should but even then, final judgment would always be on the hands of Murtough, he's their boss.

Your argument is more strawman than mine since Murtough actually has power to veto whatever he doesn't like, unlike Rangsnick. He just chooses not to because he doesn't know better. When a person is at highest position, and choose to do nothing, when thing goes wrong, it's fecking his fault.

The point here being every manager wants certain players, but they won't always get it at a proper run club. Not even Pep get what he wants nor he does scouting at all.
Thing is United is not a proper run club, which is main reason manager is allowed to overthrow head of football department, whom is even more incompetent. It's a scenario where you expect manager to be genius in everything they do to success at United. This should not be the case

See the root of the issue? or we still blame manager after 10 years? If it's the latter, what the point of "Glazers out" then?

You don't remember some things correctly. Rangnick's boardroom role never materialised. He was interim manager till the end of the year and then he was going to be a "consultant" afterwards. He never got to be it. How much power he would be given as part of his job and who he would report to, was likely to be stipulated in the contract. We're just not privy to it. You don't know if Rangnick would have some power to veto or simply be another voice (other than ETH) for Murtough to listen to, you're just speculating. Are you alleging with the bolded that Rangnick was more incompetent than ETH or Murtough in a boardroom capacity? Because Rangnick was DoF for 7 years at RBL and created the side that went from nothing to UCL regulars. Murtough's first ever job as a DOF was here and ETH doesn't have boardroom experience.

I don't really see how my argument is more strawman than yours. You're pulling a "no u" without logical basis. I pointed out that there were different structures in place, namely the Scouts and Rangnick, to identify and pick targets. And that ETH not picking the targets didn't by default mean Murtough picking them. Murtough would likely have just been the executioner, very much in the same way as he is now, difference being that there would be more people choosing and picking targets other than ETH alone.

Also, you say not even Pep gets to pick his targets. But does Pep work to undermine the structures above him to gain more power over transfers or not? Because reputationally, yes he probably could. There are some very strong suggestions that ETH allegedly did so. If you try to undermine the structure that identifies and chooses players, you bear increased responsibility over the decision making. He has his own agency and is responsible for his decisions, you can't just lay it all at the feet of ownership.

Finally, you're creating yet another fake dichotomy by thinking that blaming the manager, somehow absolves the ownership. Yes the owners have promoted wrong, weak people in senior football positions and that is having detrimental effects to the football operations. No one, least of all me, is absolving them of that and we want to see an ownership change. This weakness has enabled people like ETH to undermine the structure above them and get more control than he would be allowed elsewhere. He could have used that control to perhaps make better decisions than Rangnick and the scouts would have made. The conclusive evidence is that he used that power recklessly and destructively.

ETH, the DoF and the CEO all bear responsibility for this mess and should be sacked. Hopefully, a shareholder shake-up will allow this to happen.

 

[MadMike]

But you are not ETH and as far as reported he requested more control over transfers, not less like you would in his place.

Bingo.