Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

Status
Not open for further replies.
So youre making up a hypothetical scenario and getting angry about it. Good stuff mate.

No your argument is that the money spent isn’t on him. He’s been given the players he obviously asked for and isn’t performing. I don’t really care if Antony cost 90m or 40m he’s shite and needs replacing that’s on ETH for signing him.
 
No your argument is that the money spent isn’t on him. He’s been given the players he obviously asked for and isn’t performing. I don’t really care if Antony cost 90m or 40m he’s shite and needs replacing that’s on ETH for signing him.
He can't play Malacia, or Licha. Cas we dont know if he asked for, but he's been out for a few games. Antony himself has missed half the games (but I accept he's shite).

He's also not been given a RB, 2 of his CB choices, his first CM choice (albeit thats because the player wasnt keen) and his first choice CF. So don't act like he's had everything he wants.
 
He over performed last season and came in with pedigree of winning trophies. Now your turn.

What trophies? Eredivisie? :lol:

ETH has us playing shit, not scoring, made some terrible signings, struggling against literally every team we play, poor in game choices, boring football. You name it and he is failing. I could make a case for practically any other PL manager from 12th place upwards coming in and potentially doing a better job than him right now, especially in terms of style of play. See my previous post, I could even make a case for fecking Brendan Rodgers doing a better job.
 
ETH inherited a group of players that were just about to become some of the best in the world. He left and they left, Ajax haven't been amazing since. They've also continued to sell players without replacing them - a lot of this may also be a result of Overmars and VDS also leaving. Not just ETH like you said, but everything that was part of that good period - the CEO, DOF, players and managers have all left. And for what it's worth, there were a number of Ajax fans on here that were less than glowing in their assessment of ETH, which was apparently shared by many fans. It almost felt like United supporters rated ETH higher than actual Ajax fans at the time we appointed him.
No he didn't. He inherited wank.
Martial was a crock, couldn't get 3 games together. Rashford was devoid of any confidence and a shell of himself. Bruno came off the back of one his worst ever seasons, Maguire was the joke of the country. Mata left, Matic left, Lingard left, and a few others left.

Saying he inherited a group of players that was just about to become some of the best in the world is just daft.
 
No he didn't. He inherited wank.
Martial was a crock, couldn't get 3 games together. Rashford was devoid of any confidence and a shell of himself. Bruno came off the back of one his worst ever seasons, Maguire was the joke of the country. Mata left, Matic left, Lingard left, and a few others left.

Saying he inherited a group of players that was just about to become some of the best in the world is just daft.
He’s talking about Ajax
 
It's not "unprecedentedly", for God's sake. All our managers dealt with similar injury crises if not worse, even Ferguson. LVG was playing ton of kids with no zero experience at one point because he had no players left.

Yes Liverpool did and had a car crash season. Arteta did season before last lost first 3 games and finished 8th
 
What trophies? Eredivisie? :lol:

ETH has us playing shit, not scoring, made some terrible signings, struggling against literally every team we play, poor in game choices, boring football. You name it and he is failing. I could make a case for practically any other PL manager from 12th place upwards coming in and potentially doing a better job than him right now, especially in terms of style of play. See my previous post, I could even make a case for fecking Brendan Rodgers doing a better job.
So he has no managerial pedigree? He won a double at Ajax twice (after they had a barren run prior) and won our first cup in 3 years in his debut year with us.

You can laugh all you want but he's statistically had the best debut season of any manager post Fergie.

Now how about you try to answer my question for the 3rd time, instead of dodging it. Who is genuinely a better option than Ten Hag? Is it Brendan Rogers? Good. Now you can end the debate. You've shown the forum your wonderful logic. Cheers.
 
npbIels.png


How can you after facing dross like Forest, Palace, Brentford and Wolves, plus Brighton and City be trailing for 10x longer than you’ve been leading?

Yet another awful stat in a long list of damning stats. Pure delusion to believe he can turn it around.

So the major issue last season was scoring goals when his only recognised CF was Martial (a crock) we bought him a kid with no proven track record (and injured) as the only forward line signing and we expect that we were not going to have issues with leading games?
 
He can't play Malacia, or Licha. Cas we dont know if he asked for, but he's been out for a few games. Antony himself has missed half the games (but I accept he's shite).

He's also not been given a RB, 2 of his CB choices, his first CM choice (albeit thats because the player wasnt keen) and his first choice CF. So don't act like he's had everything he wants.

Yeah I won’t argue with that there’s players he probably preferred to what he got. We should have signed Kim in the summer rather than prioritising Mount which seems like one of the most bizarre transfers ever at the minute.
 
But Ole had more seasons under his belt and more transfer windows to get his style in, as did Mourinho. This is only Ten Hag's second season and it's 10 games in, which is why I am saying its premature to get the knives out.

And Ole delivered improvement in his second full season. It's being misremembered as some awful showing when in reality it was a really, really good season. We started off terribly which included a drubbing from Spurs but steadily improved, we finished 2nd on 74 points and would have probably got close to 80 if we hadn't secured 2nd place early which caused us to drop 8 points in the final 4 games and 10 points in final 6.

Thing about Ole's tenure, last season aside, is we hardly ever got hammered by good teams. 2020-21 was actually ridiculous in that regard as we got 0-0 draws against Liverpool, Chelsea (twice), City and Arsenal, and won 2-1 at Etihad.

Our Europa League run was great though we should not have even been in EL having won the first two CL games in the fashion that we did - it's that Istanbul loss that killed us, a freak result nonetheless. Paris away was one of our best performances in Europe in the last decade (and far better than the win we got there in the knockouts 1.5 years prior).

Also mind that Ole did not get to spend as much as ETH did. Prior to 2020-21 we only signed VDB, Telles and got Cavani on free for the first team. It's the season before we went on a spending spree with Maguire, AWB and Fernandes but to be fair that did result in an improvement and top 4 finish too (+ a good EL run that ended with Sevilla). So basically after their first season in which they both improved, Ole got to sign two cheap players and a freebie, and ETH got to spend another 200 million on his targets, and has so far delivered a much worse season.

If last season has earned ETH so much goodwill that it's unthinkable to sack him now, I don't see the rationale of sacking Ole when we did. It's basically the same situation.
 
Can someone tell my why all our managers fall into the delusional period right before they get sacked? They start off great, but then believe their own crap because they are not kept in line by the higher ups.

 
Maybe Marco Rose? His team play aggressive pressing football that doesn’t completely go against what Ten Hag has tried to build. If he works with the current structure he could suggest talents from Germany which might translate a bit better than players from Holland which is generally speaking a lower level.

Finally a decent suggestion.

This is the kind of thinking we need to be doing, a manager who fits the style we're trying to establish. There are a few downsides, given how his time at Dortmund wasn't the greatest, but then a single season is difficult to judge. Another person on our list should be Nagelsmann, he isn't available at the moment but has the best profile I can think of as a replacement right now, given his experience and success at Bayern, the pressure and expectation there is similar to here, and coping with that is a necessary skill in order to succeed at United.
 
And Ole delivered improvement in his second full season. It's being misremembered as some awful showing when in reality it was a really, really good season. We started off terribly which included a drubbing from Spurs but steadily improved, we finished 2nd on 74 points and would have probably got close to 80 if we hadn't secured 2nd place early which caused us to drop 8 points in the final 4 games and 10 points in final 6.

Thing about Ole's tenure, last season aside, is we hardly ever got hammered by good teams. 2020-21 was actually ridiculous in that regard as we got 0-0 draws against Liverpool, Chelsea (twice), City and Arsenal, and won 2-1 at Etihad.

Our Europa League run was great though we should not have even been in EL having won the first two CL games in the fashion that we did - it's that Istanbul loss that killed us, a freak result nonetheless. Paris away was one of our best performances in Europe in the last decade (and far better than the win we got there in the knockouts 1.5 years prior).

If last season has earned ETH so much goodwill that it's unthinkable to sack him now, I don't see the rationale of sacking Ole when we did. It's basically the same situation.
Ole's best ever season didn't even have a bigger point tally than Ten Hag's first. That's before we consider cup runs and the fact that Ole had 1.5 seasons headstart.
Ole was a complete and utter car crash benefitting from empty stadiums. I have little doubt the mentality of his squad would have buckled in every away game with a crowd (it did when stadiums reopened by the way). They were chronic chokers too, as displayed in the semis and finals.
 
Those two examples aren't available at the moment. You want him fired, in order for that to be rational you need to have an alternative in mind that we could bring in now. You're using Ange as a face for a currently imaginary new manager. As for Rodgers, he's a decent coach and did well at Celtic, and for the most part with Leicester until he had them set up for relegation, but under the bright lights and expectation at Liverpool he wilted.

And yes I did read where you said that the club should do it's homework instead of listening to supporters - ironically that includes the supporters calling to sack Ten Hag without putting thought into a successor. So the club shouldn't listen to you - given your suggestions and general ranting I entirely agree!

Rodgers did a much better job at Liverpool than any United manager has done since Fergie left. They were a whisker away from winning the league - we have not even come close to challenging for the league.
 
Can someone tell my why all our managers fall into the delusional period right before they get sacked? They start off great, but then believe their own crap because they are not kept in line by the higher ups.


He was talking about the first half. Our first 30 mins was pretty good.

Second half he changed the plan and wanted to go for it. It was the wrong move and he would need to take ownership of that.
 
Pre season 2022:
" We want to play a proactive style of football – on the ball and off the ball" - source
“You are talking like a Dutchman, eh! They always want to play brilliant football! But that's why I am here: I like it that you want to win, and you want to win it in a certain way, so [being] proactive, brave, adventure." - source

Pre season 2023:
“We really looked into the history of Manchester United and we really looked also into the qualities of our players. And then you can say, so what do we want to be? That is, we want to be the best transition team in the world.......We want to play dynamic [football]" - source

https://theathletic.com/5005162/2023/10/28/manchester-united-pragmatism-ten-hag/

Are we really meant to believe over preseason EtH suddenly didn't care about his approach, and suddenly decided to look into the history of United and play the so called United way. Or was he told to?
 
A what point do we all agree that he isn’t up to the job? I lasted until yesterday and his post match interview has confirmed for me he isn’t up to it. However, he still has a lot of support, which is absolutely fair enough.
My over arching view is that since the cup final We have a negative GD and less than 50% win rate. The cup final was a few months into his tenure and about the time you’d expect his style of play to kick in. So where are we now? We certainly ain’t improving, the players to come back are hardly world beaters. They might be full backs but both have been ever present in the absolute pastings we got last season. Casemiro the only noticeable one to come back anytime soon - so we aren’t going to get better all of a sudden. We have no game changers to drop into this first 11.
If ETH wants to see till Easter then he needs to adopt a new approach today. I’d be much happier if we got beat 0-3 by City if we actually tried to score a goal or two.
 
No he didn't. He inherited wank.
Martial was a crock, couldn't get 3 games together. Rashford was devoid of any confidence and a shell of himself. Bruno came off the back of one his worst ever seasons, Maguire was the joke of the country. Mata left, Matic left, Lingard left, and a few others left.

Saying he inherited a group of players that was just about to become some of the best in the world is just daft.

Was the poster not talking about the team he inherited at Ajax?
 
Delusion is ignoring the tangible successes hes had and overriding it with perofrmances over an exaggerated period.

When you add context to last season though, it's not so impressive. I gave my thoughts even last season, against the grain, when things were better. But I said at that time that what he was doing wasn't sustainable. I said, and was told I was wrong, that he's not looking to become a possession based team like everybody claimed, and is relying on counter attacking/transition football. There were so many poor games last season that it was hard for me to ignore - but perhaps not United fans that just want to live in ignorant bliss. It was a season where our traditional top 4 rivals imploded and we limped over the line in a race against Brighton. Similarly to this season, we ground out some wins with individual moments when it looked like nothing would happen.

If you couldn't see any of the red flags last season then I can't do anything about that. But a lucky league cup run with all favourable home fixtures, means absolutely nothing to me. I've seen LVG win the FA Cup and I wanted him gone, I've seen Jose do even better and he had to go. I'm looking at the football and not the results all the time, because I've seen first hand that sometimes the two don't align. But eventually they will, and here we are....
 
Just stared at yesterday’s line up for 3 minutes in absolute silence. 24 hours later and It’s generally still blown my mind.
 
ETHs 'management' of the playing squad has been good. He's got the big decisions correct and instilled some discipline in the squad.

Unfortunately it's the 'coaching' aspect that's let him down badly. He's failed to identify the right personnel and he's failed to coach the personnel he does have into a working unit.
 
A what point do we all agree that he isn’t up to the job? I lasted until yesterday and his post match interview has confirmed for me he isn’t up to it. However, he still has a lot of support, which is absolutely fair enough.
Genuinely, I would want to see how he is at Xmas in performance before making up my mind on him one way or another.
 
He doesnt play Sancho because the player did not apologize to him yet he doesnt drop Rashford and Bruno for being piss poor. If he wants to be a hard man he should be with all the players and not pick and choose. And also when has he criticized referees for wrong decisions going against the team. Look at Liverpool and Klopp and the hue and cry they raised and now they dont get decisions against them.

Yeah completely different standards when it comes to Bruno & Rashford,that's a very valid point about him not complaining over decisions too. I admire any of the fanbase who actually believe he will suddenly grow a set and drop both of them ASAP.
 
When you add context to last season though, it's not so impressive. I gave my thoughts even last season, against the grain, when things were better. But I said at that time that what he was doing wasn't sustainable. I said, and was told I was wrong, that he's not looking to become a possession based team like everybody claimed, and is relying on counter attacking/transition football. There were so many poor games last season that it was hard for me to ignore - but perhaps not United fans that just want to live in ignorant bliss. It was a season where our traditional top 4 rivals imploded and we limped over the line in a race against Brighton. Similarly to this season, we ground out some wins with individual moments when it looked like nothing would happen.

If you couldn't see any of the red flags last season then I can't do anything about that. But a lucky league cup run with all favourable home fixtures, means absolutely nothing to me. I've seen LVG win the FA Cup and I wanted him gone, I've seen Jose do even better and he had to go. I'm looking at the football and not the results all the time, because I've seen first hand that sometimes the two don't align. But eventually they will, and here we are....
So you want to add context to last season but not this season. Sure mate.
 
Ole's best ever season didn't even have a bigger point tally than Ten Hag's first. That's before we consider cup runs and the fact that Ole had 1.5 seasons headstart.
Ole was a complete and utter car crash benefitting from empty stadiums. I have little doubt the mentality of his squad would have buckled in every away game with a crowd (it did when stadiums reopened by the way). They were chronic chokers too, as displayed in the semis and finals.
As I pointed out, we secured top 4 early in 2020-21 and had EL to prepare for so we took our foot off the gas. We still ended up on 74 points despite losing 2 and drawing 2 of the final 6 games. If we had actually needed those points (like we did last season up until the penultimate game of season), I'm sure we would have gone above 75.

I personally rate 2020-21 as a better season than 2022-23. If we are going to point out lack of away crowds, he also did not benefit from Old Trafford advantage either.
 
A few points here.

Firstly, we played quite ok for a few months last season and peaked against Barca/Newcastle win in the cup final. Imagine taking out Martinez and Shaw from that team - no doubt our team would have suffered from that, but the drop would not be as significant to take us to this season performances (rock bottom) level. Applying the same logic, once Martinez and Shaw are back, it will definitely help us to play actual football, but will not be enough to make us competitive (aiming for top 4). This is because our game is still too reliant on individuals rather than a system in which players know what they are supposed to be doing. I get exactly the opposite feeling watching us play. We have moved to being even more individual brilliance team than ever before.

The reason for that is we have not seen a functioning midfield since last season. Apparently ETH has brought in Casemiro, Eriksen, Mount and Amrabat in last 14 months, and is not able to make it work with those players.
Our problems don't end with midfield, but they definitely start there.

Secondly, we play very simple football at the moment, so even if we are aiming for something more sophisticated, the problem I see is you don't transform from what we used to be to ManCity overnight. It seems to be this is what ETH thought will happen if he gets Mount and pushes two "midfielders" higher up. And I don't even talk about MC game here, a game in which we have given up on playing football and I don't blame ETH for that, but rather about this season picture how we are set up to play.
Tbh I don't even know if you agree with me or not. Obviously it's impossible to play like City overnight. That's pretty much what I was trying to say I think.

Atm imo we have to keep it simple because unless he's blind ETH must be able to see the fecking obvious result of his football against City. But City aside imo more or less we're still trying to play his kind of football.

Imo it's not like the injures are the sole reason for us being crap atm. There's more to that I think. But yeah surely we'd logically be better when our first choice players are back. But would we play well enough it's impossible to tell imo. Only time will tell. We'll see I think.
 
And how did those players do the season prior to him at Ajax?
They finished 2nd, 1 point off top, and got to the Europa League final. I think it's fair to say that he came in at a good time when Ajax had some very promising youngsters in De Ligt and De Jong whose talent was beyond anything they'd had in a while but he then did improve them and their run to the 2019 CL semis was so exciting, it's a shame that he seems unable and now unwilling to try to replicate something similar here.
 
As I pointed out, we secured top 4 early in 2020-21 and had EL to prepare for so we took our foot off the gas. We still ended up on 74 points despite losing 2 and drawing 2 of the final 6 games. If we had actually needed those points (like we did last season up until the penultimate game of season), I'm sure we would have gone above 75.

I personally rate 2020-21 as a better season than 2022-23. If we are going to point out lack of away crowds, he also did not benefit from Old Trafford advantage either.
So that impressive season checks out if he actually crystalised this focus into something tangible. Which he didn't. He choked in an empty stadium. He also over played players and turned them into crocks. He mismanaged martial and played Rashford into the ground. Ten Hag makes do and leads the line with Weghorst up top and does a better tally. Ten Hag also fought on 3 trophies alongside top 4 for a long time and did eventually finish 8pts clear of 4th.
 
Yeah and that's just a flawed way of thinking. Why would 'a poster on the forum' have the answers? Manchester United isn't run by RedCafe posters.

Having said that, I bet that some of the managers already mentioned would do a better job. We'll just never know unless one or more of them get the opportunity to manage us, but you will just dismiss them because they've never actually managed us and have probably had bad periods like every single manager not named Pep.

It isn't flawed at all. If a poster who wants the manager fired can't put together a logical train of thought as to how that would improve our situation, then it isn't a rational opinion, it's just a worthless knee jerk reaction. Man Utd not being run by RedCafe posters is indeed a blessing, given that we're getting thoughts no deeper than "I bet they'd do a better job" about throwing any other manager at the job, or "Ange came from nowhere so get the new Ange" about imaginary managers we could appoint.
 
They finished 2nd, 1 point off top, and got to the Europa League final. I think it's fair to say that he came in at a good time when Ajax had some very promising youngsters in De Ligt and De Jong whose talent was beyond anything they'd had in a while but he then did improve them and their run to the 2019 CL semis was so exciting, it's a shame that he seems unable and now unwilling to try to replicate something similar here.
So they didnt actually win anything.

If you want to put Ten Hag's terrific success at Ajax down to him inheriting a great squad, and then ignoring how he was stripped of key players and had to rebuild creatively (losing FdJ, De Ligt), then thats a fallacy on your part.
 
We do know the dynamic - it's been reported and openly spoken about.
Both sides have a veto structure. He wanted Antony and there was no veto against him. Thats a fault not just on Ten Hag but on the scouting and footballing structure to not block it.

He veto'd Kolo Muani in favour of Hojlund, apparently. There was an Athletic article about it a while back. He wanted Kane and it was veto'd by the higher ups.

Agree, I understand the veto system that is in place.

What we don't know is how viable are the options that Murtough and co are bringing to the table. And how insistent is ETH when making his suggestions?

Murtough and co clearly dont have their sh1t together - if they did, there would be no veto arrangement. But even if they did, if ETH is coming in and telling them that Anthony that player he wants because of his experience working with him, then it is hard to push back on.

I understand the Kane veto. Age, salary, price, protracted dealings, or even a flat out no from Levy would be strong arguments against the signing.
 
I would not assume what he was hired to bring. Also your last point is ridiculous because he already said how he wants us to play and its not how we played under Ole.
:D ridiculous because you think so or what you believe?

There is no big difference to how we play NOW and how we played in 2021. Absolutely nothing.

Now as before
We don't score enough goals,
we leak goals,
we get hammered like before,
we don't control games,
we don't have sustained attacking pressure,
we are still Bruno over the top ball to Rashford,
our attackers don't score ( even during Ole our goals did spread out)

Remove your tinted glasses we are as shit as we were in 2021.

You might think we play differently, and this is brought about by new players who look different to what we had but our game patterns is exactly how it was during Ole. Even Ole had great games.

ETH reign is divided in 3 parts.

First part - Start of Last season till World Cup break. Very average period.

Second part - After world cup till Carabao Cup Final. Very good period.

Third part - After Carabao Cup Final ( Liverpool 7-0 game) to date. Very very disappointing period.

( In 23 league games, we have lost 9 games, won 12 games, drawn 2 games) leaked 28 goals in process.


Make what you want out of it.

We need to be honest with each other, nothing big has changed in how we play
 
  • Like
Reactions: Fortitude
Agree, I understand the veto system that is in place.

What we don't know is how viable are the options that Murtough and co are bringing to the table. And how insistent is ETH when making his suggestions?

Murtough and co clearly dont have their sh1t together - if they did, there would be no veto arrangement. But even if they did, if ETH is coming in and telling them that Anthony that player he wants because of his experience working with him, then it is hard to push back on.

I understand the Kane veto. Age, salary, price, protracted dealings, or even a flat out no from Levy would be strong arguments against the signing.
Its a good structure of both sides have a backbone. Which we know is not the case.
The higher ups could have turned to Ten Hag and said "no means no on Antony, but here's Gakpo who was your number 2 on the list". But they didn't. They paid a bigger premium (I think they could have got Antony cheaper if they moved earlier) and Ten Hag will get the full blame for that.

I see that as a structural failure more than anything else though. Ten Hag for me is a manager and a coach. And I'l criticize him for the poor results right now, but I don't want to over analyse transfer business because its a mess above him.
 
Rodgers did a much better job at Liverpool than any United manager has done since Fergie left. They were a whisker away from winning the league - we have not even come close to challenging for the league.

You know that's a false equivalence though, the bar for winning the league has been raised through the roof by the Pep and Klopp sides of the past few years.

That being said, you're right that he had an excellent season, but he wasn't able to build on it at all, and went backwards until fired. It's definitely not a CV that inspires confidence.
 
:D ridiculous because you think so or what you believe?

There is no big difference to how we play and how we played in 2021. Absolutely nothing.

Now as before
We don't score enough goals,
we leak goals,
we get hammered like before,
we don't control games,
we don't have sustained attacking pressure,
we are still Bruno over the top ball to Rashford,
our attackers don't score ( even during Ole our goals did spread out)

Remove your tinted glasses we are as shit as we were in 2021.

You might think we play differently, and this is brought about by new players who look different to what we had but our game patterns is exactly how it was during Ole. Even Ole had great games.

ETH reign is divided in 3 parts.

First part - Start of Last season till World Cup break. Very average period.

Second part - After world cup till Carabao Cup Final. Very good period.

Third part - After Carabao Cup Final ( Liverpool 7-0 game) to date. Very very disappointing period.

( In 23 league games, we have lost 9 games, won 12 games, drawn 2 games) leaked 28 goals in process.


Make what you want out of it.

We need to be honest with each other, nothing big has changed in how we play

Except the fact we are aiming to press higher up the pitch and force transitions from high turnover scenarios. The execution being poor doesn't negate an obvious change backed by stats from even last season to this.
What tinted glasses, where have I said we are a better team?
Again you are just conflating issues and taking nonsense. We don't play the same
 
Status
Not open for further replies.