No your argument is that the money spent isn’t on him. He’s been given the players he obviously asked for and isn’t performing. I don’t really care if Antony cost 90m or 40m he’s shite and needs replacing that’s on ETH for signing him.
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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No your argument is that the money spent isn’t on him. He’s been given the players he obviously asked for and isn’t performing. I don’t really care if Antony cost 90m or 40m he’s shite and needs replacing that’s on ETH for signing him.
He can't play Malacia, or Licha. Cas we dont know if he asked for, but he's been out for a few games. Antony himself has missed half the games (but I accept he's shite).
He's also not been given a RB, 2 of his CB choices, his first CM choice (albeit thats because the player wasnt keen) and his first choice CF. So don't act like he's had everything he wants.
What trophies? Eredivisie?
ETH has us playing shit, not scoring, made some terrible signings, struggling against literally every team we play, poor in game choices, boring football. You name it and he is failing. I could make a case for practically any other PL manager from 12th place upwards coming in and potentially doing a better job than him right now, especially in terms of style of play. See my previous post, I could even make a case for fecking Brendan Rodgers doing a better job.
No he didn't. He inherited wank.
Martial was a crock, couldn't get 3 games together. Rashford was devoid of any confidence and a shell of himself. Bruno came off the back of one his worst ever seasons, Maguire was the joke of the country. Mata left, Matic left, Lingard left, and a few others left.
Saying he inherited a group of players that was just about to become some of the best in the world is just daft.
He’s talking about Ajax
Yes Liverpool did and had a car crash season. Arteta did season before last lost first 3 games and finished 8th
So he has no managerial pedigree? He won a double at Ajax twice (after they had a barren run prior) and won our first cup in 3 years in his debut year with us.What trophies? Eredivisie?
ETH has us playing shit, not scoring, made some terrible signings, struggling against literally every team we play, poor in game choices, boring football. You name it and he is failing. I could make a case for practically any other PL manager from 12th place upwards coming in and potentially doing a better job than him right now, especially in terms of style of play. See my previous post, I could even make a case for fecking Brendan Rodgers doing a better job.
You can laugh all you want but he's statistically had the best debut season of any manager post Fergie.
Now how about you try to answer my question for the 3rd time, instead of dodging it. Who is genuinely a better option than Ten Hag? Is it Brendan Rogers? Good. Now you can end the debate. You've shown the forum your wonderful logic. Cheers.
The same Ajax that were struggling to win for 5 years before he got there
And how did those players do the season prior to him at Ajax?
How can you after facing dross like Forest, Palace, Brentford and Wolves, plus Brighton and City be trailing for 10x longer than you’ve been leading?
Yet another awful stat in a long list of damning stats. Pure delusion to believe he can turn it around.
So the major issue last season was scoring goals when his only recognised CF was Martial (a crock) we bought him a kid with no proven track record (and injured) as the only forward line signing and we expect that we were not going to have issues with leading games?
Yeah I won’t argue with that there’s players he probably preferred to what he got. We should have signed Kim in the summer rather than prioritising Mount which seems like one of the most bizarre transfers ever at the minute.
And Ole delivered improvement in his second full season. It's being misremembered as some awful showing when in reality it was a really, really good season. We started off terribly which included a drubbing from Spurs but steadily improved, we finished 2nd on 74 points and would have probably got close to 80 if we hadn't secured 2nd place early which caused us to drop 8 points in the final 4 games and 10 points in final 6.
Thing about Ole's tenure, last season aside, is we hardly ever got hammered by good teams. 2020-21 was actually ridiculous in that regard as we got 0-0 draws against Liverpool, Chelsea (twice), City and Arsenal, and won 2-1 at Etihad.
Our Europa League run was great though we should not have even been in EL having won the first two CL games in the fashion that we did - it's that Istanbul loss that killed us, a freak result nonetheless. Paris away was one of our best performances in Europe in the last decade (and far better than the win we got there in the knockouts 1.5 years prior).
Also mind that Ole did not get to spend as much as ETH did. Prior to 2020-21 we only signed VDB, Telles and got Cavani on free for the first team. It's the season before we went on a spending spree with Maguire, AWB and Fernandes but to be fair that did result in an improvement and top 4 finish too (+ a good EL run that ended with Sevilla). So basically after their first season in which they both improved, Ole got to sign two cheap players and a freebie, and ETH got to spend another 200 million on his targets, and has so far delivered a much worse season.
If last season has earned ETH so much goodwill that it's unthinkable to sack him now, I don't see the rationale of sacking Ole when we did. It's basically the same situation.
Can someone tell my why all our managers fall into the delusional period right before they get sacked? They start off great, but then believe their own crap because they are not kept in line by the higher ups.
Finally a decent suggestion.
This is the kind of thinking we need to be doing, a manager who fits the style we're trying to establish. There are a few downsides, given how his time at Dortmund wasn't the greatest, but then a single season is difficult to judge. Another person on our list should be Nagelsmann, he isn't available at the moment but has the best profile I can think of as a replacement right now, given his experience and success at Bayern, the pressure and expectation there is similar to here, and coping with that is a necessary skill in order to succeed at United.
Ole's best ever season didn't even have a bigger point tally than Ten Hag's first. That's before we consider cup runs and the fact that Ole had 1.5 seasons headstart.
Ole was a complete and utter car crash benefitting from empty stadiums. I have little doubt the mentality of his squad would have buckled in every away game with a crowd (it did when stadiums reopened by the way). They were chronic chokers too, as displayed in the semis and finals.
Rodgers did a much better job at Liverpool than any United manager has done since Fergie left. They were a whisker away from winning the league - we have not even come close to challenging for the league.
He was talking about the first half. Our first 30 mins was pretty good.
Second half he changed the plan and wanted to go for it. It was the wrong move and he would need to take ownership of that.
Pre season 2022:
" We want to play a proactive style of football – on the ball and off the ball" - source
“You are talking like a Dutchman, eh! They always want to play brilliant football! But that's why I am here: I like it that you want to win, and you want to win it in a certain way, so [being] proactive, brave, adventure." - source
Pre season 2023:
“We really looked into the history of Manchester United and we really looked also into the qualities of our players. And then you can say, so what do we want to be? That is, we want to be the best transition team in the world.......We want to play dynamic [football]" - source
https://theathletic.com/5005162/2023/10/28/manchester-united-pragmatism-ten-hag/
Are we really meant to believe over preseason EtH suddenly didn't care about his approach, and suddenly decided to look into the history of United and play the so called United way. Or was he told to?
" We want to play a proactive style of football – on the ball and off the ball" - source
“You are talking like a Dutchman, eh! They always want to play brilliant football! But that's why I am here: I like it that you want to win, and you want to win it in a certain way, so [being] proactive, brave, adventure." - source
Pre season 2023:
“We really looked into the history of Manchester United and we really looked also into the qualities of our players. And then you can say, so what do we want to be? That is, we want to be the best transition team in the world.......We want to play dynamic [football]" - source
https://theathletic.com/5005162/2023/10/28/manchester-united-pragmatism-ten-hag/
Are we really meant to believe over preseason EtH suddenly didn't care about his approach, and suddenly decided to look into the history of United and play the so called United way. Or was he told to?
A what point do we all agree that he isn’t up to the job? I lasted until yesterday and his post match interview has confirmed for me he isn’t up to it. However, he still has a lot of support, which is absolutely fair enough.
My over arching view is that since the cup final We have a negative GD and less than 50% win rate. The cup final was a few months into his tenure and about the time you’d expect his style of play to kick in. So where are we now? We certainly ain’t improving, the players to come back are hardly world beaters. They might be full backs but both have been ever present in the absolute pastings we got last season. Casemiro the only noticeable one to come back anytime soon - so we aren’t going to get better all of a sudden. We have no game changers to drop into this first 11.
If ETH wants to see till Easter then he needs to adopt a new approach today. I’d be much happier if we got beat 0-3 by City if we actually tried to score a goal or two.
My over arching view is that since the cup final We have a negative GD and less than 50% win rate. The cup final was a few months into his tenure and about the time you’d expect his style of play to kick in. So where are we now? We certainly ain’t improving, the players to come back are hardly world beaters. They might be full backs but both have been ever present in the absolute pastings we got last season. Casemiro the only noticeable one to come back anytime soon - so we aren’t going to get better all of a sudden. We have no game changers to drop into this first 11.
If ETH wants to see till Easter then he needs to adopt a new approach today. I’d be much happier if we got beat 0-3 by City if we actually tried to score a goal or two.
Was the poster not talking about the team he inherited at Ajax?
When you add context to last season though, it's not so impressive. I gave my thoughts even last season, against the grain, when things were better. But I said at that time that what he was doing wasn't sustainable. I said, and was told I was wrong, that he's not looking to become a possession based team like everybody claimed, and is relying on counter attacking/transition football. There were so many poor games last season that it was hard for me to ignore - but perhaps not United fans that just want to live in ignorant bliss. It was a season where our traditional top 4 rivals imploded and we limped over the line in a race against Brighton. Similarly to this season, we ground out some wins with individual moments when it looked like nothing would happen.
If you couldn't see any of the red flags last season then I can't do anything about that. But a lucky league cup run with all favourable home fixtures, means absolutely nothing to me. I've seen LVG win the FA Cup and I wanted him gone, I've seen Jose do even better and he had to go. I'm looking at the football and not the results all the time, because I've seen first hand that sometimes the two don't align. But eventually they will, and here we are....
Just stared at yesterday’s line up for 3 minutes in absolute silence. 24 hours later and It’s generally still blown my mind.
ETHs 'management' of the playing squad has been good. He's got the big decisions correct and instilled some discipline in the squad.
Unfortunately it's the 'coaching' aspect that's let him down badly. He's failed to identify the right personnel and he's failed to coach the personnel he does have into a working unit.
Unfortunately it's the 'coaching' aspect that's let him down badly. He's failed to identify the right personnel and he's failed to coach the personnel he does have into a working unit.
Genuinely, I would want to see how he is at Xmas in performance before making up my mind on him one way or another.
Yeah completely different standards when it comes to Bruno & Rashford,that's a very valid point about him not complaining over decisions too. I admire any of the fanbase who actually believe he will suddenly grow a set and drop both of them ASAP.
So you want to add context to last season but not this season. Sure mate.
As I pointed out, we secured top 4 early in 2020-21 and had EL to prepare for so we took our foot off the gas. We still ended up on 74 points despite losing 2 and drawing 2 of the final 6 games. If we had actually needed those points (like we did last season up until the penultimate game of season), I'm sure we would have gone above 75.
I personally rate 2020-21 as a better season than 2022-23. If we are going to point out lack of away crowds, he also did not benefit from Old Trafford advantage either.
Tbh I don't even know if you agree with me or not. Obviously it's impossible to play like City overnight. That's pretty much what I was trying to say I think.
Atm imo we have to keep it simple because unless he's blind ETH must be able to see the fecking obvious result of his football against City. But City aside imo more or less we're still trying to play his kind of football.
Imo it's not like the injures are the sole reason for us being crap atm. There's more to that I think. But yeah surely we'd logically be better when our first choice players are back. But would we play well enough it's impossible to tell imo. Only time will tell. We'll see I think.
They finished 2nd, 1 point off top, and got to the Europa League final. I think it's fair to say that he came in at a good time when Ajax had some very promising youngsters in De Ligt and De Jong whose talent was beyond anything they'd had in a while but he then did improve them and their run to the 2019 CL semis was so exciting, it's a shame that he seems unable and now unwilling to try to replicate something similar here.
So that impressive season checks out if he actually crystalised this focus into something tangible. Which he didn't. He choked in an empty stadium. He also over played players and turned them into crocks. He mismanaged martial and played Rashford into the ground. Ten Hag makes do and leads the line with Weghorst up top and does a better tally. Ten Hag also fought on 3 trophies alongside top 4 for a long time and did eventually finish 8pts clear of 4th.
It isn't flawed at all. If a poster who wants the manager fired can't put together a logical train of thought as to how that would improve our situation, then it isn't a rational opinion, it's just a worthless knee jerk reaction. Man Utd not being run by RedCafe posters is indeed a blessing, given that we're getting thoughts no deeper than "I bet they'd do a better job" about throwing any other manager at the job, or "Ange came from nowhere so get the new Ange" about imaginary managers we could appoint.
He was still a problem, the current situation does not change that.
So they didnt actually win anything.
If you want to put Ten Hag's terrific success at Ajax down to him inheriting a great squad, and then ignoring how he was stripped of key players and had to rebuild creatively (losing FdJ, De Ligt), then thats a fallacy on your part.
Agree, I understand the veto system that is in place.
What we don't know is how viable are the options that Murtough and co are bringing to the table. And how insistent is ETH when making his suggestions?
Murtough and co clearly dont have their sh1t together - if they did, there would be no veto arrangement. But even if they did, if ETH is coming in and telling them that Anthony that player he wants because of his experience working with him, then it is hard to push back on.
I understand the Kane veto. Age, salary, price, protracted dealings, or even a flat out no from Levy would be strong arguments against the signing.
ridiculous because you think so or what you believe?There is no big difference to how we play NOW and how we played in 2021. Absolutely nothing.
Now as before
We don't score enough goals,
we leak goals,
we get hammered like before,
we don't control games,
we don't have sustained attacking pressure,
we are still Bruno over the top ball to Rashford,
our attackers don't score ( even during Ole our goals did spread out)
Remove your tinted glasses we are as shit as we were in 2021.
You might think we play differently, and this is brought about by new players who look different to what we had but our game patterns is exactly how it was during Ole. Even Ole had great games.
ETH reign is divided in 3 parts.
First part - Start of Last season till World Cup break. Very average period.
Second part - After world cup till Carabao Cup Final. Very good period.
Third part - After Carabao Cup Final ( Liverpool 7-0 game) to date. Very very disappointing period.
( In 23 league games, we have lost 9 games, won 12 games, drawn 2 games) leaked 28 goals in process.
Make what you want out of it.
We need to be honest with each other, nothing big has changed in how we play
Its a good structure of both sides have a backbone. Which we know is not the case.
The higher ups could have turned to Ten Hag and said "no means no on Antony, but here's Gakpo who was your number 2 on the list". But they didn't. They paid a bigger premium (I think they could have got Antony cheaper if they moved earlier) and Ten Hag will get the full blame for that.
I see that as a structural failure more than anything else though. Ten Hag for me is a manager and a coach. And I'l criticize him for the poor results right now, but I don't want to over analyse transfer business because its a mess above him.
You know that's a false equivalence though, the bar for winning the league has been raised through the roof by the Pep and Klopp sides of the past few years.
That being said, you're right that he had an excellent season, but he wasn't able to build on it at all, and went backwards until fired. It's definitely not a CV that inspires confidence.
There is no big difference to how we play and how we played in 2021. Absolutely nothing.
Now as before
We don't score enough goals,
we leak goals,
we get hammered like before,
we don't control games,
we don't have sustained attacking pressure,
we are still Bruno over the top ball to Rashford,
our attackers don't score ( even during Ole our goals did spread out)
Remove your tinted glasses we are as shit as we were in 2021.
You might think we play differently, and this is brought about by new players who look different to what we had but our game patterns is exactly how it was during Ole. Even Ole had great games.
ETH reign is divided in 3 parts.
First part - Start of Last season till World Cup break. Very average period.
Second part - After world cup till Carabao Cup Final. Very good period.
Third part - After Carabao Cup Final ( Liverpool 7-0 game) to date. Very very disappointing period.
( In 23 league games, we have lost 9 games, won 12 games, drawn 2 games) leaked 28 goals in process.
Make what you want out of it.
We need to be honest with each other, nothing big has changed in how we play
Except the fact we are aiming to press higher up the pitch and force transitions from high turnover scenarios. The execution being poor doesn't negate an obvious change backed by stats from even last season to this.
What tinted glasses, where have I said we are a better team?
Again you are just conflating issues and taking nonsense. We don't play the same
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Man's ego is annoying
Man's ego is annoying
Best is subjective. People thought Rashford was our best player and he’s a huge part of the mess why we’re such a shit club.
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