Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[DSG]

Mount and Antony are 100% his players. He wanted them, he chased them, he said over the summer Mount was the 'complete' midfielder when asked about his interest. He didn't give a feck how much they cost, he just wanted more players. He'd have spent over a billion if the money was there.

My point is that he has some responsibility for every transfer since he arrived. Every single one. You can’t say “transfers have been appalling, that’s why we aren’t performing, and he doesn’t have any control over transfers.” That is patently untrue. He does have veto power over every player nominated. At the very least, he’s agreed to bring in every single player. Then there are Mount, Antony, Onana, Licha and probably Malacia and Eriksen who he most likely nominated.

So, yes, I agree with you. He should be judged on his transfer record.

 

[VP89]

That obviously explains why every team had unbelievable away form as none of the away teams faced crowds either.

It certainly explains why his collapsed like a house of cards.

 

[Big Ben Foster]

How far has the club fallen that we have been ‘pretty good’ because we were hanging on for dear life against our rivals?

Why is the standard not that ‘pretty good’ refers to the team dominating Man City?

These are the standards set from to bottom.

This season truly is rock bottom in terms of the standards set for the team.

I've heard the exact same excuses made about the Spurs, Arsenal, Brighton, and Bayern games. All games which we had a decent 10-20 minute spell but deservedly lost.

 

[Nogho]

All this arguing and comparing facts and figures is a waste of time.

No manager comes back from such a sustained period of terrible football and results. This is dead in the water. For all the logical thinkers, this is the only logic that matters.

He had the summer to try and rectify where things were going but it’s clear the players can’t execute whatever it is that he wants. He had the chance to get in a top CB, CM and try and make the team more physical and solid and he went after the wrong players and fluffed the big chance to change the ships course.

No manager comes back from this, and we only need to look at Leicester to see the damage that comes from being passive and doing nothing.

All we are accomplishing now is eroding confidence, lowering standards and wasting everyone’s time.

It hasn’t worked, there is no point in wasting more time. It never works in the modern game.

This is what Im afraid of. If we just keep on going in the same direction it will see us lost in the world of Premier football. Bad result will result in no players want a transfer to United and then no up and coming managers will be interested and so in. As a matter of fact I think this is the case in some areas already.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Jesus can we stop banging on about our failed managers ffs. Want ETH gone all you like, but stop pretending Ole was anything more than bang average.

 

[gaffs]

This is what gets me.

Ten Hag is meant to be this disciplinarian. Sancho not performing upto standard in training when performing opposition defensive work. Gets left out of the team, gets called out post the loss v Arsenal, responds on twitter then gets frozen out of the first team and forced to train with the kids until he apologies.

Yet each and every week we see players shirking their responsibilities in game. They don't get called out. They don't miss the next game.

How many times have we seen Rashford or Bruno give up the chase? We saw McTominay give up tracking that led to the second City goal. We all remember McTomianys lackluster effort v Bayern when he lost the ball, despite him only just coming on. No one marks the best forward in the world yesterday for the second goal.

Why is ETH not equally disciplining his players when they are failing in their duties on the pitch, each and every week?

 

[gaffs]

Jesus can we stop banging on about our failed managers ffs. Want ETH gone all you want, but stop pretending Ole was anything more than bang average.

Ole wasn't even a proper manager. That has been shown by the fact that he is still on the dole.

 

[Tom Van Persie]

 

[Robbie Boy]

Yeah something about Old Trafford burning down and Ten Hag being a clown.



They'll deny this with hindsight. But if Klopp was amidst that implosion right now and you suggested him to these posters, they'd dismiss him straight away. In their eyes nobody can do better than ETH so there's no point in trying anything else. Give him till the Glazers sell up in 10-15 years and we might see what he's capable of under new ownership. It's just a tiring argument.



ETH inherited a group of players that were just about to become some of the best in the world. He left and they left, Ajax haven't been amazing since. They've also continued to sell players without replacing them - a lot of this may also be a result of Overmars and VDS also leaving. Not just ETH like you said, but everything that was part of that good period - the CEO, DOF, players and managers have all left. And for what it's worth, there were a number of Ajax fans on here that were less than glowing in their assessment of ETH, which was apparently shared by many fans. It almost felt like United supporters rated ETH higher than actual Ajax fans at the time we appointed him.



Yeah and that's just a flawed way of thinking. Why would 'a poster on the forum' have the answers? Manchester United isn't run by RedCafe posters.

Having said that, I bet that some of the managers already mentioned would do a better job. We'll just never know unless one or more of them get the opportunity to manage us, but you will just dismiss them because they've never actually managed us and have probably had bad periods like every single manager not named Pep.



Wasn't intended to be. All I'm saying is that we are wrong, so perhaps we need to accept that when discussing these things. Instead of telling posters that such and such a manager wouldn't work here, be more open and consider it. Afterall, the majority wanted ETH and were wrong. The majority wanted Ole and were wrong. The majority wanted LVG and were wrong. The majority said Arteta is shit and were wrong. I could go on, but the point is sometimes it's not as black and white as people make out. You will get a manager that hasn't had the opportunity to prove themselves (perhaps Ange is an example), or a manager that hasn't clicked at another club but would do well here (Emery at Villa) etc. If you asked RedCafe about these appointments for Villa and Spurs at the time, they'd probably have dismissed them. So why pretend you know how it will go when that clearly isn't the case? That isn't directly aimed at you, by the way.

Earlier I mentioned Rodgers as an example. He had Swansea and Liverpool playing great football, the same at Leicester for the most part who punched above their weight, and is now doing the same at Celtic. He's not my first choice but not you or anybody could convince me that he would definitely fail here. If he had us playing possession, attacking football like at every other club then he'd be miles better than what we have. He set things up nicely for Klopp at Liverpool to come and finish the job off. Hell he could/should have won the league himself at Liverpool in his time. But my point is there are managers out there who have good pedigree, some even proven in the PL, that could do a good job here.

I was literally talking about that list of managers that the poster named. I wouldn't touch any of them; especially Potter or Conte. It's not about being right or wrong, it's personal preference.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Ole wasn't even a proper manager. That has been shown by the fact that he is still on the dole.

Our fans just can't let go of our failed managers; it's fecking weird. Some even bring up Jose every now and again.

 

[mu4c_20le]

Jesus can we stop banging on about our failed managers ffs. Want ETH gone all you like, but stop pretending Ole was anything more than bang average.

Think you are missing the point. The bang average manager got us firing more than our current top manager. That is a big problem.

 

[Isotope]

Mount had 9 passes in 45 minutes, with passing rate of 56%. That's a level of even McTom would be proud of.

Against City, Onana is lauded for his shot stopping, while he launched 16 longballs with less than 50% success. Might as well save 50+m for other player and keep DDG for another year (we had that option).

Hojlund is really one for the future. Poor kid is not ready.

EtH really fecked up that summer transfer window.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Think you are missing the point. The bang average manager got us firing more than our current top manager. That is a big problem.

And so? Maybe both are bang average?

 

[Acquire Me]

Oh completely agree that it needs to be someone else making the football decisions but when is that gonna happen

I don’t know. It seems dangerous to even hope that it will happen. At least if you want to stay somewhat sane in all this mess.

The day we are sold, or sold in the way that Sir Jim will take over bit by bit, will be remembered as one of the biggest events in our history.

 

[mu4c_20le]

And so? Maybe both are bang average?

Maybe. Nothing wrong with comparing with our previous managers, whether favourably or negatively.

I guarantee you in a few years people will be talking about ETH much more tha Ole/mou

 

[Tom Van Persie]

I was literally talking about that list of managers that the poster named. I wouldn't touch any of them; especially Potter or Conte. It's not about being right or wrong, it's personal preference.

The suggestions for Conte are crazy considering what he just did in his last job. I thought people wanted to see good football at United? Conte is not delivering that in 2023.

 

[DWelbz19]

Intense training sessions and sluggish actual matches? We've got it the wrong way round.

 

[matherto]

ETH is the right man at the right time, he is already investing in the academy, Hojlund will be a great striker, Mainoo is the future, Martinez is a giant, Amad, Hannibal, Pellestri, but the position he started from was so low it was never going to be fixed in one or 2 season, ETH has already embarked on the development of his own Class of 92, I for one hope the Glazers, INEOS or whoever owns the club in the coming years have the guts to stick the course.

Can you share the crack you're smoking please

 

[Acquire Me]

Can you share the crack you're smoking please

The concept of not having the same opinion might be hard for you to grasp?

 

[MoskvaRed]

The concept of not having the same opinion might be hard for you to grasp?

When a poster uses the Fergie in the 80s comparison followed by a Class of 92 reference in the context of the unfolding mess with ETH, it suggests either severe delusion or, more likely, an opposition fan taking the piss out of our fanbase’s tendency towards nostalgia.

 

[mu4c_20le]

 

[Cassidy]

Mount had 9 passes in 45 minutes, with passing rate of 56%. That's a level of even McTom would be proud of.

Against City, Onana is lauded for his shot stopping, while he launched 16 longballs with less than 50% success. Might as well save 50+m for other player and keep DDG for another year (we had that option).

Hojlund is really one for the future. Poor kid is not ready.

EtH really fecked up that summer transfer window.

We're still blaming managers for transfer windows...

 

[Robbie Boy]

The suggestions for Conte are crazy considering what he just did in his last job. I thought people wanted to see good football at United? Conte is not delivering that in 2023.

Even under Ole, I would have kept him on over Conte. We've already had Jose, so there's absolutely no way I would have Conte here.

 

[Jaffa Cakes II]

Here's Pep on a key factor in City's success:

"I said many times we are in the same direction - chairman, CEO, sport director, manager and players," he said.

"We make mistakes, of course, but when we lose or things are not going well we are not here to blame someone, we just see what we have to do to be better and find a solution."

Until the same can be said about United, success will elude us. Will sacking ETH create this alignment and unity of purpose at all levels of the club? Will bringing in a new manager, anyone you care to mention, magically effect this unity? Nope. Nope. Nope.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Maybe. Nothing wrong with comparing with our previous managers, whether favourably or negatively.

I guarantee you in a few years people will be talking about ETH much more tha Ole/mou

But it's ridiculous as they were all monumental failures. We do this dance on here where we romanticise the last manager when the current one inevitably starts to fail.

It happened in Ole's time when people started saying Jose won us 2 cups etc. but left out all the other stuff. Ole's tenure can be painted brighter than it was, but in real-time, it was all fairly meh.

Ole was never good enough but we were right to get rid of Jose. ETH may not be good enough but we were right to get rid of Ole. I genuinely wonder if fans of other teams have little fan clubs for their failed managers, like we do.

 

[Isotope]

We're still blaming managers for transfer windows...

Oh.. EtH wasn't responsible?

 

[DevTheRed]

If ETH doesn’t succeed here then I officially lose all hope for this club. We’ve tried literally every type of manager and nothing has worked thus far.. club needs a full reset starting with the Glazers.

Such a toxic club from the top down and has been for many years now.. absolute circus.

 

[Acquire Me]

When a poster uses the Fergie in the 80s comparison followed by a Class of 92 reference in the context of the unfolding mess with ETH, it suggests either severe delusion or, more likely, an opposition fan taking the piss out of our fanbase’s tendency towards nostalgia.

Well it’s okay to have different opinions. Don’t have to be an ass or a negative Nancy about it. We got a fan base that is been split for 10 years about the same thing season after season. If the guy got some hope, over the top or not, who cares. Better than being mad and irritated all the time.

 

[Cassidy]

Oh.. EtH wasn't responsible?

Pretty sure recruitment comes under our Technical Director John Mourtough, ETH is part of it but does not have responsibility for transfers.
Of course we should just blame ETH since he is solely responsible for targets and signings even though he isn't
ETH clearly wanted a striker for the future right

 

[Isotope]

Pretty sure recruitment comes under our Technical Director John Mourtough, ETH is part of it but does not have responsibility for transfers.
Of course we should just blame ETH since he is solely responsible for targets and signings even though he isn't
ETH clearly wanted a striker for the future right

With the players we bought, I find this hard to believe.

He probably wanted Kane or Osinhem, like any other managers in the world would; but they're not available or affordable. He didn't have to agree spending 70m on Hojlund, though.

 

[spiriticon]

No way is John Murtough solely responsible for all these Eredivisie signings. I bet he doesn't even watch Dutch football.

 

[zizi]

Some balance to the discussion. Not excuses as ETH simply has to be doing better, but-

Your first choice RB is out, both your starting CB's are out, and your 1st, 2nd & 3rd choice loanee RB are out. There is no foundation to build from at all.

A GK in his first year, make shift CBs, a woefully out of form Bruno, and a 21yo ST who is also in his first year and new to the league.

All the way through the middle there are issues meaning there is no spine to the team at all.

Rashford has been utterly shocking, the only mitigation I can give him is to not underestimate how much difference luke shaw/an actual LB behind could make.

Biggest concern I think in ETHs control is the favouring of industry in the middle of the park. We need control as well. Get mctominay out of there, and a spell for bruno on the sidelines. Would like to see a three of Casemiro, Mount, and Hannibal. Enough legs tenacity and technique in theory.

 

[wolvored]

Wasn't he only talking about the first half?

He said first and we were only attacking through City mistakes. Apparently we attacked more second half as he brought Mount on. He has said this all season though, abou how we are getting better and better. I must watch different games. He plays McTom as AM first half, then DM the second after taking the actual DM off, where hes even more useless. He puts Bruno on the wing, where he is terrible. He picks Evans/Maguire and leaves Verane on the bench for 'tactical reasons'. He plays a RF Lindelof instead of the LB he brought in on loan. Dont get me started keeping Rashford on for another shitfest. Very baffling.

 

[Cassidy]

With the players we bought, I find this hard to believe.

He probably wanted Kane or Osinhem, like any other managers in the world would; but they're not available or affordable. He didn't have to agree spending 70m on Hojlund, though.

Ok so now the manager is responsible for negotiating transfer fees too, I see
Also with the players we bought its absolutely obvious the Technical Director of the club isn't doing his job

 

[IWat]

Yeah you are absolutely spot on he should have been told by recruitment team (use that term loosely) that he was not having so much control over transfers. He has had far too much say and now look at the mess. Really hope IF Ratcliffe thing materialises he has all of that transfer power taken away immediately. Also that Jim takes a ruthless view on his performance this season.

It works both ways though. If he had less control over incomings a majority would now be criticising the club for the fact that the whole thing was failing because he hadn't got the players he wanted. They can't really win.

If the club is so broken that he can't operate within the mess (which is fine if that's the case - We all know it's a clusterfeck) then he should grow some balls and walk.

 

[Cassidy]

Some balance to the discussion. Not excuses as ETH simply has to be doing better, but-

Your first choice RB is out, both your starting CB's are out, and your 1st, 2nd & 3rd choice loanee RB are out. There is no foundation to build from at all.

A GK in his first year, make shift CBs, a woefully out of form Bruno, and a 21yo ST who is also in his first year and new to the league.

All the way through the middle there are issues meaning there is no spine to the team at all.

Rashford has been utterly shocking, the only mitigation I can give him is to not underestimate how much difference luke shaw/an actual LB behind could make.

Biggest concern I think in ETHs control is the favouring of industry in the middle of the park. We need control as well. Get mctominay out of there, and a spell for bruno on the sidelines. Would like to see a three of Casemiro, Mount, and Hannibal. Enough legs tenacity and technique in theory.

I don't think this is true, and we don't have any midfielders who offer control by the way. Pinning hopes on Mainoo currently.
However it was quite obvious at the start of the season he didn't want McTominay
Its baffling to me why he dropped Mejbri

 

[L1nk]

 

[Manncunian]

I’m sorry, but at what point do you actually see the wood for the trees and realise this guy hasn’t got a clue what he’s doing?!

I’m not quite understanding what people are seeing that says “yeah this guy is a keeper”.

 

[IWat]

But we were good in the 1st half? Oh wait..

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

You wouldn't suggest playing 10 men instead of playing Antony, you'd suggest a replacement and why they'd be better. It's very simple, if you think a manager could do a better job than ETH, then name them and explain why. If you can't do that, then your opinion that he should be sacked is worthless.

I feel like this line of logic doesn't work too well because it's not really accounting for uncertainty, missing and gained knowledge, etc.

ETH and Antony were unknown quantities. There was a range of possibilities of what could happen if they came to United. They are not so unknown anymore. You know what has happened after they've come to United. The range of possibilities has narrowed. If the new information tells you they're in the 'low outcome' end of the probability distribution then replacing them with an unknown quantity who had a similar range of possibilities has a good chance of resulting in a better outcome. These managers exist, so it's not so important to have the 'perfect' candidate identified long before the sacking.

It seems you mostly just disagree that Ten Hag is in the low outcome end.