Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[IRN-BRUno]

I kind of expected this season might be a little tougher than last but it's alarming how badly things are going and I can't say I have confidence in him turning it around. These next 4 games before the international break are crucial for him now. There are genuine reasons why he deserves some sympathy but there's also no doubt he should be doing a better job. It's not just the start of this season either, performances since the League Cup final have largely been dire and he increasingly seems to be making strange decisions.

At this point I'd like to think the club have at least realised a decision might have to be made very soon. Planning for what comes next should be underway now so we're ready to go whether that's a permanent appointment or interim.

 

[FreakyJim]

One of the things that is getting overlooked for me is ETH is making us worse by trying to implement his ideas.

he started last year trying to play his way… and we got hammered twice.

He then quickly reverted to a 4231… and in the main stumbled on a less than perfect team that was doing alright.

and now he has had another summer to spend and implement his ideas, and is making us worse (albeit injuries have massively contributed)

had he of just played the same 4231 system since game 1 this season. Bruno at 10… rashford at inside left forward… a RW on the right..

double pivot midfield of eriksen or Amrabat alongside Casemiro depending on opposition.

actual fullbacks when available, playing as fullbacks, not as weird hybrids.

all with the benefit of a proper No 9 who looks promising… we would likely be a couple of wins better off.

In case you haven't noticed, we don't have actual fullbacks, they're all injured.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Doesn't matter if you would or you wouldn't, you're probably wrong about a lot of things as we all are. The majority wanted ETH and look where we are.

Pretty passive aggressive tbh. It's not a grast list, it is what it is.

 

[DJ Jeff]

In fairness with the Ole and Jose comparisons, they didn't have anything like the injury crisis ETH has now.

 

[pocco]

Which one? And how so?

Let's flip this stupid question around. What makes you think ETH will do a better job than any other manager out there?

 

[Sarni]

It's not we have an unprecedentedly level of injures at the start of this season, its not a few injuries.
Liverpool struggled similarly when it happened to them, also when you already have a compromised squad the issue is exacerbated (e.g when your backup players are ones you already know are not fit for purpose)

We actually don’t. We are currently missing three first team players (Shaw, Martinez and Casemiro). It is not unprecedented, it has happened to many clubs.

It’s an excuse people have come up with because they honestly want to believe in the manager.

 

[pocco]

Is pretty much the case of most the fans against Ten Hag

Do you say this with a straight face? Look at the performances for the last 8 months, the signings, the football, our league position, goals scored etc... and you think there is no reasonable case to be made for sacking him? You're just incredibly deluded.

 

[astracrazy]

One of the things that is getting overlooked for me is ETH is making us worse by trying to implement his ideas.

he started last year trying to play his way… and we got hammered twice.

He then quickly reverted to a 4231… and in the main stumbled on a less than perfect team that was doing alright.

and now he has had another summer to spend and implement his ideas, and is making us worse (albeit injuries have massively contributed)

had he of just played the same 4231 system since game 1 this season. Bruno at 10… rashford at inside left forward… a RW on the right..

double pivot midfield of eriksen or Amrabat alongside Casemiro depending on opposition.

actual fullbacks when available, playing as fullbacks, not as weird hybrids.

all with the benefit of a proper No 9 who looks promising… we would likely be a couple of wins better off.

No he is making us worse by not playing his way. How can you expect a manager who is trying to play a different style of football that he knows to do it well?

If anything it all makes sense why we are so poor now knowing this.

He didn't just implement his ideas for the first two games of last season, pre world cup was largly moving towards his ideas and stalled post world cup with the amount of games we played. The first two games was him being neive for how he set us up.

Compare his comments last season to this. This season was the first time he started to talk about being direct and transitioning. Last season was everything you'd expect him to say with his style in mind. In fact I remember quoting this a few months ago and suggesting something has gone wrong.

All the signings we have made have been towards his philosophy.

Something changed going into this season and him abandoning his style of play is why we are so shit.

 

[FreakyJim]

It's not "unprecedentedly", for God's sake. All our managers dealt with similar injury crises if not worse, even Ferguson. LVG was playing ton of kids with no zero experience at one point because he had no players left.

A compelling argument. That's it everyone, time to shut up. Close the thread.

 

[SATA]

People gloss over this. Ragnick reportedly was also let go of his consultancy role because Ten Hag didn't want to work with him on transfers. Yet when you mention how Ten Hag has spent 400m's to be outplayed by Luton, you're told that he's immune from criticism regarding that

The thing is i’m fairly sure that we haven’t even played Luton yet. Why do you keep saying this?

 

[cpresc]

Good interview with Ben Foster on the United Stand highlighting the problems the club has.

interestingly made the point of how we should have kept RR for sporting director

 

[Tom Van Persie]

Good interview with Ben Foster on the United Stand highlighting the problems the club has.

interestingly made the point of how we should have kept RR for sporting director

I keep hearing this but it wasn't really possible anyway once he decided to get back into management and accepted the Austria job.

 

[astracrazy]

In a way does this not sum up what an absolute mess our club is?

Not only have we gone for years from pillar to post, manager to manager, with different philosophies.

We have now signed a manager who is known for a style and now expecting him to implement another (yes, I think the direct DNA idea has come from above, there was no speak of this last season, in fact quiet the opposite).

I keep hearing this but it wasn't really possible anyway once he decided to get back into management and accepted the Austria job.

That came after. The only reason he came here in the first place was for a job upstairs after.

 

[stefan92]

I keep hearing this but it wasn't really possible anyway once he decided to get back into management and accepted the Austria job.

But that only happened when it was clear that he was going nowhere at United at that his consultancy wouldn't really happen as planned.

 

[Sarni]

In case you haven't noticed, we don't have actual fullbacks, they're all injured.

Not true. Dalot and Reguilon are both healthy.

 

[VP89]

Let's flip this stupid question around. What makes you think ETH will do a better job than any other manager out there?

He over performed last season and came in with pedigree of winning trophies. Now your turn.

 

[LuckyScout78]

If he and his team that did a wider research with a ball playing CM.

A Frenkie De Jong alternatives.

Like Stanislav Lobotka instead of Casemiro. No disrespect of Casemiro.

But 2 paths that will direct your team of playing, in short words:


Frenkie De Jong and Lobotka = Proactive and dominating football

Casemiro and Amrabat = Counter and transition football


And with Casemiro and Amrabat addition. We can see Untied and Ten Hag are on the sitting back and counter attack football.

That were the 2 path.

Ten Hag and his team chosed a cm player with theirs sternght as a defensive cm player. Instead of a ball playing creative cm playmaker. Who dictate and spread the passes all around.


So for me. Ten Hag should go for his first intention of how he want United to play. Instead he set the team to counter. Special against top teams. And with the pressure of Manchester United. Ten Hag like Ole go for save tactic. Because you just don't play proactive, open football like City or Liverpool. If you don't have at least one really good and master of the ball as a central midfield player.

United and Ten Hag was and still need a general of the ball. A master of the ball as a cm player. Then we can start talking. United start dominating matches. On a conistent level.


So shall United and Ten Hag stay or leave? Stay with this set up. Defensive counter attack football?
And like you know. If he stay and stick with set up and minded into the matches.....It will be trouble.

We all know. The text to one song : " Shall we or shall we go? "


Again. No disrespect to Casemiro. At Real Madrid Casemiro fully did concentrate on the defensive duties. Modric and Kroos did the offensive and creative part. And as lesser you have to focus on and use all your best strenght abiliy on a specific job and area. You will rise the chance to doing a better job on the pitch.


So what will i recommend to United and Ten Hag?

Solution 1 : I think he and United shall try to swap Casemiro with Lobotka. Casemiro + money in January. Napoli will need a replacement for Lobotka. It's here you will try to offer Casemiro in the deal.

Solution 2: Pray and hope Kobbie Mainoo is and or will become master of the ball in the future. As a dictating cm playmaker. A proactive cm player

Solution 3 : Frenkie De Jong i don't think will come here. This solution is to try to find this kind of cm player in the football market right now. And with the level of. The top level = Master of the ball = there are not many out there.
Lobotka is the closest we can come to Frenkie De Jong. Peak Busquets, Steven Gerrard, Modric or Pirlo.


So only solution 2 in a internal solution. Solution 1 and 3 are external solution = go out and buy a new top creatove cm playmaker.


Again team Untied shall dominate. Eriksen still might be that cm playmaker. I just only see Eriksen or Mainoo can do that deep cm playmaker role.

Before the Jan transfer window open up. Then if United and Ten has fund. I would try solution 1 if i was United and Ten Hag.


But again. The choice he made to buy Casemiro and later Amrabat....are leading United on this path.

 

[VP89]

Do you say this with a straight face? Look at the performances for the last 8 months, the signings, the football, our league position, goals scored etc... and you think there is no reasonable case to be made for sacking him? You're just incredibly deluded.

Delusion is ignoring the tangible successes hes had and overriding it with perofrmances over an exaggerated period.

 

[The Hilton]

In terms of wanting managers with pedigree, maybe someone like Hansi Flick could work on a short term basis, he’s more proven than ETH. Someone like Simeone has improved his style of play recently and has experience going up against teams that are better which is what he’d need to do here. Lopetegui is also available, he wasn’t won a league title but he did have some success in the Europa League with Sevilla. Then there are options like Conte and Potter but they’re not realistic.

Good to see a few new suggestions, but all have drawbacks:

• Flick has spent less than 2 years as a club manager since 2005. Admittedly that time at Bayern was spectacular, but it's still a very limited data set.
• Simeone has played an awful style of football for most of his career, and that would definitely be the path of least resistance for him to take here, given how naturally the mid/low block comes to most of our squad. His achievements and titles up against Real and Barca are excellent though, but the style is a definite step backwards. This applies to Conte too, only without the recent success or European pedigree that comes with Simeone.
• Lopetegui has a pretty poor track record, especially at clubs with an expectation of winning (Porto, Real Madrid).
• Potter's stock has definitely fallen due to his time at Chelsea, that was a similarly high pressure environment to United (although not quite as much) with a similarly dysfunctional transfer system, and it didn't go well. However the foundations he built at Brighton were very good and there's clearly a decent coach there.

Hopefully you see what I mean though, in that there are no sure things. Rather than just picking any manager and going in an entirely new direction, I'd much rather we stick with a style of football, than we can develop from top to bottom throughout the club, and bring in managers that are, on paper at least, a good fit for that approach and culture.

 

[croadyman]

Would be amazed if he hasn't lost some of that dressing room with the majority of performances this season. Surely a United one would actually show heart and desire in a derby

 

[FreakyJim]

Not true. Dalot and Reguilon are both healthy.

The latter is coming off of a muscle injury and looks (and plays) like he's unfit.

Dalot is an idiot.

 

[Sarni]

He over performed last season and came in with pedigree of winning trophies. Now your turn.

The same could have been said about Mourinho (who won us our only European trophy since Fergie left and had won everything before joining us) and Ole (who won Norwegian league with Molde and got us two consecutive top 3 finishes).

This season is pretty much exactly where Ole’s last season was while last season was equal to 2020-21. It’s very similar.

 

[Sarni]

The latter is coming off from a muscle injury and looks (and plays) like he's unfit.

Dalot is an idiot.

Dalot was given a new contract 5 months ago. ETH clearly doesn’t share your views on him.

 

[NinjaZombie]

The fanbase's role in the erosion of standards

@Skills

feck off with that shit. I'm not the one making the decisions at the club. What I do has zero impact on Manchester United, especially considering I live halfway around the world. I don't buy kits, and I watch games on the river and have only been to Old Trafford a couple of time way back before the nightmare of this past decade. The last time I bought a United kit and merchandise was back when we were a PLC back when I was in my teens.

I can rant around on YouTube screaming bloody murder, or I can try and maintain my sanity trying to find what little positives there is in supporting this football club. Either won't make an iota of a difference in how United is run. That's on the leprechauns who own this once great club.

 

[Castia]

Buzz words, United has a way of playing, you just don't like it
Also 14 new players?

Now we want to diminish what he achieved last season to make your point.
Fact is the squad cannot handle this level of injuries and he is struggling as a result, also as a result of some of his errors too

We generally look clueless and have done since March last season. If his way of playing is clueless then that’s definitely a style.

The players will run and then look like they haven’t kicked a ball for months when in possession making the running a complete waste of time

 

[r0663664]

The identity of this yeam will not change until Rashford and Bruno is dropped. Both are counter attacking players, they are unable to move without the ball, hold on the ball and provide good spacing. It is night and day between Grealish and Silva. ETH doesn't have the balls to drop them so we revert back to Ole's football. We were deservedly beaten and the score line flatter us. United is nothing more than mid table team. I thought by now ETH would have given top 4 in search of better football. I don't care where we finish this season, I just hope to see the coach phase out these useless players ASAP.

 

[Jacko21]

But that only happened when it was clear that he was going nowhere at United at that his consultancy wouldn't really happen as planned.

Not so sure about that.

Even if he'd been offered a significant role at United, the lure of a big gig in management would've been too strong (understandably so). And I highly doubt he'd of been on Austria's shortlist had he still been operating out of Russia. A job share was always pretty fanciful, for all concerned.

 

[Buster15]

We actually don’t. We are currently missing three first team players (Shaw, Martinez and Casemiro). It is not unprecedented, it has happened to many clubs.

It’s an excuse people have come up with because they honestly want to believe in the manager.

That is right. All premier league clubs have the resources to be able to have large squads.
So these injuries really ought not to badly affect the way the team plays.

And anyway. Our problem is down to the fact that we don't score enough goals and Martinez, Shaw and Casemiro are not necessarily the reason.

The reason is that we don't have the creative players.
In fact we don't have players who are comfortable with the ball.
They are scared to receive the ball and give it away far too easily.

And the primary cause is down to terrible recruitment, at all levels.

 

[Castia]

Oh that guy who tried making a step up at Dortmund and completely imploded? Good shout.

I think his system itself needed tweaking toward pragmatism. It's not just a few players he relies on, but the back ups too. When hes playing the 4th and 5th choices, that's where its a problem.


What is it with some of you lot not knowing how to read? Has he done the best possible job? No. Has he over performed last season on results? Yes. Is he the best available manager for us? Yes. Come back in Christmas and ask the same question, you might get the same answer or different. It's too early to call for him out now.


You moan about money spent like he should be a DoF and a manager. If money is wasted blame the people above him. He's a coach and his job is to get results. Last year he over performed, and this year hes under performing. The jury on him as a success or failure for now is still out but it does make me laugh that some posters want to punt on it being on an extreme.

The money spent is on him when it’s his players he’s brought in that aren’t good enough.

 

[The Hilton]

That's two examples of managers right there that you agree with and your conclusion is that I'm suggesting to hire anyone? Did you even read my post? I said the club should do their homework instead of listening to supporters. No Spurs supporter would have suggested Ange, and look at how well he is doing. That is my point. Somebody at Spurs has seen something in him and they have given him a chance. I could suggest managers but I know full well that you will dismiss them, even though it is very possible that they could do a good job here. The issue is that RedCafe have written off so many managers that you would get laughed at for even suggesting them. I argued with posters on here that Arteta was taking Arsenal in the right direction - not a popular opinion at the time but now look.

Brendan Rodgers for example. Had Liverpool playing excellent football, had Leicester playing very good football, has Celtic playing good football. Unbeaten in the league and just got a draw (having led twice) against Atletico Madrid. Nobody wants to hear it, but he is a good manager than has a good attitude and plays good football. He's had his lows and highs, but overall I think he's proven himself well over the years. You will dismiss him, but in a reality where he was given a chance here, I could see him doing well. Whether he would get us competing at the top, I'm not sure.

He's not even my no1 pick, but he's an example of a manager that could do well that would just get dismissed outright. Which is why it's pointless even making a suggestion. But ultimately, as I said, the club needs to do their homework next time.

Those two examples aren't available at the moment. You want him fired, in order for that to be rational you need to have an alternative in mind that we could bring in now. You're using Ange as a face for a currently imaginary new manager. As for Rodgers, he's a decent coach and did well at Celtic, and for the most part with Leicester until he had them set up for relegation, but under the bright lights and expectation at Liverpool he wilted.

And yes I did read where you said that the club should do it's homework instead of listening to supporters - ironically that includes the supporters calling to sack Ten Hag without putting thought into a successor. So the club shouldn't listen to you - given your suggestions and general ranting I entirely agree!

 

[VP89]

The same could have been said about Mourinho (who won us our only European trophy since Fergie left and had won everything before joining us) and Ole (who won Norwegian league with Molde and got us two consecutive top 3 finishes).

This season is pretty much exactly where Ole’s last season was while last season was equal to 2020-21. It’s very similar.

But Ole had more seasons under his belt and more transfer windows to get his style in, as did Mourinho. This is only Ten Hag's second season and it's 10 games in, which is why I am saying its premature to get the knives out.

 

[VP89]

The money spent is on him when it’s his players he’s brought in that are t good enough.

No, the money spent is on the structure above him. He doesn't force the club over a table and has his way with them.

 

[Jordi Cruyff 99]

It's so funny that people thought Ronaldo was the problem, when he was the best player in the squad during his first season back.

 

[gaffs]

“A damn good job”

Made some very good signing for them. Axel Disasi, Caio Henrique, Vanderson, Mohamed Camara and Breel Embolo.

 

[Castia]

No, the money spent is on the structure above him. He doesn't force the club over a table and has his way with them.

Then we’d hear he can’t perform because he wasn’t given the players he asked for. Put the prices to the one side his players haven’t been good enough that’s the bottom line for me. His best signing is Casemiro who’s 32 in Feb and needs replacing again before long. Pointless.

 

[luke511]

 

[gaffs]

No, the money spent is on the structure above him. He doesn't force the club over a table and has his way with them.

We don't know the dynamic, to be fair.

We don't know if ETH is insisting on the likes of Anthony, or if these signings are happening due to a level of ineptitude from the DoF etc.

It is hard to imagine that Murtough and his staff come to ETH with zero ideas re potential signings.

The kindest thing you can say on ETH re Anthony is that he was naive to think that Anthony could succeed in a league that ETH had only just entered.

 

[VP89]

Then we’d hear he can’t perform because he wasn’t given the players he asked for. Put the prices to the one side his players haven’t been good enough that’s the bottom line for me. His best signing is Casemiro who’s 32 in Feb and needs replacing again before long. Pointless.

So youre making up a hypothetical scenario and getting angry about it. Good stuff mate.

 

[VP89]

We don't know the dynamic, to be fair.

We don't know if ETH is insisting on the likes of Anthony, or if these signings are happening due to a level of ineptitude from the DoF etc.

It is hard to imagine that Murtough and his staff come to ETH with zero ideas re potential signings.

The kindest thing you can say on ETH re Anthony is that he was naive to think that Anthony could succeed in a league that ETH had only just entered.

We do know the dynamic - it's been reported and openly spoken about.
Both sides have a veto structure. He wanted Antony and there was no veto against him. Thats a fault not just on Ten Hag but on the scouting and footballing structure to not block it.

He veto'd Kolo Muani in favour of Hojlund, apparently. There was an Athletic article about it a while back. He wanted Kane and it was veto'd by the higher ups.

 

[pocco]

I'd love nothing more than to have stuck a goPro on Keane and send him in at half time a few times this season.

It also sounds like the stadium needs it, did I hear City fans singing Old Trafford is falling apart yesterday?

Yeah something about Old Trafford burning down and Ten Hag being a clown.

He was sacked in second place, 8 points behind Bayern Munich, hardly an implosion. He’s since moved on and won a cup + community shield equivalent with Leipzig. He’s also beaten teams like Real Madrid and Bayern Munich at his current club, it’s bad faith to suggest he’s nowhere near a reasonable shout. Would you have said no to Klopp after his Dortmund ‘implosion’?

They'll deny this with hindsight. But if Klopp was amidst that implosion right now and you suggested him to these posters, they'd dismiss him straight away. In their eyes nobody can do better than ETH so there's no point in trying anything else. Give him till the Glazers sell up in 10-15 years and we might see what he's capable of under new ownership. It's just a tiring argument.

Second in a 2 horse league and had some horrific results.

Ten Hag took Ajax when they hadn't won the league in 5 years, won two doubles and left. Now they're shit again.

You think Marco Rose stands a chance in comparison with that CV? Good luck.

ETH inherited a group of players that were just about to become some of the best in the world. He left and they left, Ajax haven't been amazing since. They've also continued to sell players without replacing them - a lot of this may also be a result of Overmars and VDS also leaving. Not just ETH like you said, but everything that was part of that good period - the CEO, DOF, players and managers have all left. And for what it's worth, there were a number of Ajax fans on here that were less than glowing in their assessment of ETH, which was apparently shared by many fans. It almost felt like United supporters rated ETH higher than actual Ajax fans at the time we appointed him.

I'm expecting a poster on the forum suggesting that we sack the manager to have an idea as to who we replace the manager with. That's the difference between it being a rational opinion or a knee jerk reaction.

Yeah and that's just a flawed way of thinking. Why would 'a poster on the forum' have the answers? Manchester United isn't run by RedCafe posters.

Having said that, I bet that some of the managers already mentioned would do a better job. We'll just never know unless one or more of them get the opportunity to manage us, but you will just dismiss them because they've never actually managed us and have probably had bad periods like every single manager not named Pep.

Pretty passive aggressive tbh. It's not a grast list, it is what it is.

Wasn't intended to be. All I'm saying is that we are wrong, so perhaps we need to accept that when discussing these things. Instead of telling posters that such and such a manager wouldn't work here, be more open and consider it. Afterall, the majority wanted ETH and were wrong. The majority wanted Ole and were wrong. The majority wanted LVG and were wrong. The majority said Arteta is shit and were wrong. I could go on, but the point is sometimes it's not as black and white as people make out. You will get a manager that hasn't had the opportunity to prove themselves (perhaps Ange is an example), or a manager that hasn't clicked at another club but would do well here (Emery at Villa) etc. If you asked RedCafe about these appointments for Villa and Spurs at the time, they'd probably have dismissed them. So why pretend you know how it will go when that clearly isn't the case? That isn't directly aimed at you, by the way.

Earlier I mentioned Rodgers as an example. He had Swansea and Liverpool playing great football, the same at Leicester for the most part who punched above their weight, and is now doing the same at Celtic. He's not my first choice but not you or anybody could convince me that he would definitely fail here. If he had us playing possession, attacking football like at every other club then he'd be miles better than what we have. He set things up nicely for Klopp at Liverpool to come and finish the job off. Hell he could/should have won the league himself at Liverpool in his time. But my point is there are managers out there who have good pedigree, some even proven in the PL, that could do a good job here.