Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[tomaldinho1]

.
What I wrote is our many problem.. Big gaps between defense and other players.

The solution is easy... Compress the space between defenders and strikers.
There is no other way. Everything else will fail.

I wrote about this is in the matchday thread, clear tactic and something I really do not want to see. It would be good if there was a vid of that image because you see Bruno and McT in unison see Dalot get the ball and both bomb on making the dreaded shape I used to hate in Ole's time here of a separated defence and attack.

 

[AshTheBash]

Sadly for Ten Hag it looks like it's only a matter of time for him before he's sacked now and all roads lead to his sacking eventually. He can't take us to that next level. The sooner everyone makes peace with that and moves on the better.

I also think Ang is the one we want lads. There's something to be said about a charismatic manager. Ang is very likeable and charismatic (calling everyone mate, being honest and down to earth in press conferences) same as Klopp and Pep. I think that gives a manager more time. Ten Hag comes across so cold and robotic. And always making excuses up.

I also think Ten Hag is a terrible man-manager.. players like Ronaldo and Sancho need the "arm around the shoulder approach" and a bit of extra care like Sir Alex Ferguson recognised certain players needed to be treated differently.. Ten Hag is unable to manage big players. Only ones he knows from before.

Surely once it's mathematically impossible to get into the Champions League he will be sacked like other previous managers. He's just not very good, and not another Pep or Klopp like was hyped up to be.

When the Brighton manager and Ang show you up by installing patterns and a style of play onto their teams in the 1st season and Ten Hag can't do that in his 2nd...you have to ask why and the buck stops with the manager

 

[flameinthesun]

.
What I wrote is our many problem.. Big gaps between defense and other players.

The solution is easy... Compress the space between defenders and strikers.
There is no other way. Everything else will fail.

As much as I've been defending Ten Hag this is something I just don't get. That picture happens all the time, we completely vacate the midfield, with everybody spread out so wide, our defenders not that high and almost 5 players on a line in the forward line. It has to be intentional from Ten Hag, maybe to try and leave space in the midfield for players to run into but as it stands it is not helping us.

 

[andersj]

“Only once in his career has Pep made a mistake – in his first year at Manchester City when he completely underestimated the power and speed of the Premier League,” Ten Hag told Voetbal International (via the Manchester Evening News).

“He realised that you can’t play the kind of football he loves without having a couple of physically strong athletes – and so he brought them in. So he’s not a stubborn coach.

So weird how he ended up adding Casemiro, Ambrabat and Martinez to a spine that already had Lindelof, Maguire, Donny, Bruno on longer contracts. The only player with power and speed in central area is Varane (always injured) and McT(probably not good enough).

 

[Zico1982]

EtH clearly has a plan. The big problem is, that it´s not working. A second problem that he is to stubborn to react to the current team situation. He refuses to change what does not work. He just insists on making the greatest transition team in the world. Period. That won´t work as long as Martinez and Shaw are out. They are the two players to play the ball out from defense. Those passes has to be transferred through the lines by someone. In the current squad that someone is Eriksen, who spends 45-65 minutes on the bench every game until the dutchman finally registers that we are a mess, then brings him, and watches as the game changes in our favor. There is not a single soul in the stadium, who are surprised that we are suddenly controlling our opponent cos´ it happens every fecking time. I am beginning to lose patience. It is no coincidence, that Amrabat, McT or Bruno gets better playing with someone who can actually pass the ball through the lines and dictate the pace of a football game. Everyone sees Mount as competition for Eriksen. He is not. He is, or should be, competing with Bruno for the attacking role or, more likely, for a spot on the wing. Amrabat and McT and even Hannibal are competing for the Casemiro spot. Mainoo is the only player fighting for Eriksens spot. It gets even stranger, when you see the balding dane play in the national team. He can play deep playmaker, but he is actually still much better at 10, due to his lack of pace and physicality. How can EtH not spot what is missing? We need a FdJ kind of player next to Casemiro or Amrabat, but we did´nt seem to care about that in the last window. Why? Now we need to do with what we have. As I see it, you can play Casemiro/Eriksen/Bruno like we did last year or surround Eriksen with legs (Hannibal/Amrabat or Case) and play him at 10. Mounts best shot at getting in the team is on the wing with Rashy and Anthony out of form.

 

[baskinginthesun]

We did not even create that many great chances. Before our goal our best one was Garnacho which was a counter attack, probably a goal more often than not but having a couple of decent opportunities on the counter against a weak Copenhagen team at home, and creating virtually nothing in possession is frankly embarrassing.

It definitely wasn't a game where we dominated them and should have won handsomely. Our xG was actually lower than theirs, and barely higher excluding penalty, and they also had a few very good chances before the goal (including one great save by Onana). It was a game of two evenly matched sides, not an utter domination with United wasting chance after chance.

Yep. I agree. xG aside we're not that fast transition team that Ten Hag said we would be. The pace picked up in the 2nd half a bit but, it was still quite poor. By the time we started creating any kind of opportunities Copenhagen probably could have and should have been 2-0 up already. It's been the same story in all the recent games.

Tactically, I have no idea what we're doing. It's 5 attacking players standing on the edge of the box facing our own goal. What is that? Where is the movement? Where is the incisiveness?

 

[Leftback99]

“Only once in his career has Pep made a mistake – in his first year at Manchester City when he completely underestimated the power and speed of the Premier League,” Ten Hag told Voetbal International (via the Manchester Evening News).

“He realised that you can’t play the kind of football he loves without having a couple of physically strong athletes – and so he brought them in. So he’s not a stubborn coach.

So weird how he ended up adding Casemiro, Ambrabat and Martinez to a spine that already had Lindelof, Maguire, Donny, Bruno on longer contracts. The only player with power and speed in central area is Varane (always injured) and McT(probably not good enough).

Yep. Baffling that he's built a squad which goes completely against that comment.

 

[hobbers]

This is a good microcosm of all our problems going forward. Whoever has the ball gets totally isolated, usually a defender or Antony/Rashford.

When Dalot has it here, Hojlund, McTominay, Bruno and Rashford are all narrow and typically man marking each of the defenders. Totally out of the game. McTominay and Mount especially love this pointless system and thrive at it. The only variation is whether it's a full back or Antony/Rashford who end up isolated.

Complete opposite of what the De Bruyne/Maddison/Odegaard types do which is roam around finding space between the lines.

 

[el3mel]

And if we fire him today and we get through the group post that, you will celebrate it as if removing Ten Hag was the reason we got through the group.
So what's your point? Should we not qualify through the group because posters on this forum will celebrate it?

United should go through this group regardless. I said after the GalataSaray embarrassing loss that we still have a chance as long as we win the next two games :

If we defeat Copenhagen home and away we will be in a solid position in the group. Bayern will at least defeat Galatasaray once if not twice.

Going out from the group is still in our hands and we are lucky we aren't in a tougher group.

However, you never know with United.

 

[Suv666]

I hate this so much. This has to be intentional I can’t figure out why we play like this and has me questioning ETH. Antithesis of modern football, Sunday League stuff. Why the feck is he still sticking with this I don’t fecking understand.

Sometimes I feel like some managers over complicate simple things, ETH being the prime example.

 

[DJ_21]

How can we go from seeing glimpses of his style of play in the first season to really bad in this season. We’ve gone backwards rather than improved. It doesn’t help with all the negative stuff in the background that keeps happening. The very least we all expected though was to see a clear style of play and good football consistently. We know we’re not gonna win every game but with a set playing style then we can go on long unbeaten runs and make teams afraid of us again.

 

[Lay]

I didn’t realise a good performance against Spurs (a game we lost) is being herelded as some master class. Yet people claim standards haven’t dropped

 

[Alex99]

How can we go from seeing glimpses of his style of play in the first season to really bad in this season. We’ve gone backwards rather than improved. It doesn’t help with all the negative stuff in the background that keeps happening. The very least we all expected though was to see a clear style of play and good football consistently. We know we’re not gonna win every game but with a set playing style then we can go on long unbeaten runs and make teams afraid of us again.

I don't mean this to pick on you in particular, but I've seen this sentiment shared over and over.

Do you not think the ridiculous injury list we've had has contributed somewhat to a lack of cohesive style?

 

[Still ill]

Well look, I'm not enjoying things at the moment but if Klopp had to contend with say Nunez being lost to a Greenwood type scenario, Diaz for a month on an Anthony charge, Van Dijk indefinitely, Konate sporadically, Trent and Robertson long term, along with Tsimikas and whatever young lad came in to replace him, Salah completely lost the ability to find the back of the net and found the club mired indefinitely in a will they won't they sale I'm pretty sure they'd be struggling for those champagne football moments.

 

[andersj]

Yep. Baffling that he's built a squad which goes completely against that comment.

They way money has been spent during his tenure is also starting to look like a sackable offence. It is, of course, first and foremost on the management and structure. But he also wanted influence and «manager status». Fans of both Utrecht and Ajax spoke and warned that he insisted on quite a few poor players during his time there.

I’m really split on it as I think he looks like a good coach that could do well in a good stucture. I also think he has the right temperament for the job (not sure that is the case for de Zerbi).

But insisting on players like Antony, Amrabat and Onana reeks of poor judgement. I also think he should have known that we had to spend the Casemiro money smarter.

 

[DJ_21]

I don't mean this to pick on you in particular, but I've seen this sentiment shared over and over.

Do you not think the ridiculous injury list we've had has contributed somewhat to a lack of cohesive style?

Maybe. But the first couple of games of the season we started with probably our strongest 11 and the performances was poor. We’re grinding our results at the minute by playing poor football but against tougher teams it will cost us.

 

[UpWithRivers]

Is this where the 23 percent sack are hanging out?

 

[Newstyle]

After 16 months and 400 million invested, there's still no evident progress. Where do we draw the line? When is enough? Who should bear responsibility?

In any other reputable organizations or companies such a lack of progress wouldn't be tolerated, and those responsible would be held accountable.

 

[flappyjay]

They way money has been spent during his tenure is also starting to look like a sackable offence. It is, of course, first and foremost on the management and structure. But he also wanted influence and «manager status». Fans of both Utrecht and Ajax spoke and warned that he insisted on quite a few poor players during his time there.

I’m really split on it as I think he looks like a good coach that could do well in a good stucture. I also think he has the right temperament for the job (not sure that is the case for de Zerbi).

But insisting on players like Antony, Amrabat and Onana reeks of poor judgement. I also think he should have known that we had to spend the Casemiro money smarter.

He definitely needs to be only a coach without the other responsibilities we have bestowed on him. Our club truly is a mess above the manager.

 

[Alex99]

Maybe. But the first couple of games of the season we started with probably our strongest 11 and the performances was poor. We’re grinding our results at the minute by playing poor football but against tougher teams it will cost us.

I'm not going to worry about a crap couple of games right at the start of the season. We've had shite starts for as long as I can remember.

I've said this in another thread, but the other side to that coin is that we're grinding out results despite playing shit with an injury stricken squad, so when everyone's fit and firing, surely it can only get better?

 

[Kellyiom]

Needed is a strong word and the debacle around the contract offered to De Gea was farcical and exemplified a lack of direction both from the hierarchy and the manager. I said back in summer that it was a 5/10 window. What United needed to do is address the weakest areas concerning the squads deficiencies. Not one of those positions you mentioned aside striker had any priority above forward options because last year the attack and mostly the managers success were held together by the form of an individual player with a relatively long purple patch.

United should have signed two wingers and a striker possibly with view to a fullback to overlap. The funds this summer were spent poorly not in proportion to the quality of the individual players acquired but not addressing the urgent areas of the squad, the evidence of that is in the teams performances. Three new players yet the needle for the first team hasn't moved significantly enough. So in a window where there was room to move forward the only direction the team has taken is a sidestep it's not a coincidence.

I also feel it's been a confusing methodology we've been using in recruitment. Back when we got Telles, someone posted a chart, it looked a bit like a spider's web and each sector represented how strong the player was in the various elements of that role and it clearly showed Telles to be more attack-focused. This was supposed to be a more quantitative approach but all that's been scrapped presumably and with all the stuff about the scouts, the agency 'controversy' and using players ETH has worked with it just sounds like a real mess to be honest.

The other thing that does my head in is we acquire players like Eriksen or Casemiro and after one season we're seeing teams just walk through us and it's supposedly because 'their legs have gone'!? Like, what are we doing to players? Someone above mentioned a 'soap opera' and I can totally see why, there's plenty of action, none of it's on the pitch unfortunately.

 

[Redstain]

ETH is not a good coach that much will be more evident in how the team performs over the next few games. Bad results is somewhat permissable when there's an intent with how the team performs because it's something you can build on. Every manager at United has become worse incrementally due to bad coaching. So while many are using the time answers all metric, it's really the elongation of an idea or philosophy that compounds the probability for success. United hierarchy should use this period and put out a blank statement that the next manager must manage in proportion to whatever the intent is from the coaching side as the first and if not only priority.

Forget all the promises and clauses about top four, what trophies the manager wants to win etc no the question should be how does manager X improve the current crop of players and with investment through recruitment how does those improvements help new players transition into the team.

Erik I'm sure was hired provisionally because of the promise of what he would bring from Ajax. The deliverables of those hopes is absolutely amiss and now not one fan can say with certainty what the manager is and will be if he's here 3-5 years. You could see what Klopp wanted to do, same can be said for Pep and the forums favourite with Arteta but we are left guessing with Erik he makes statements at the many but they don't resonate with the teams displays. Thoroughly disappointed.

 

[Herschel Krustofsky]

Is this where the 23 percent sack are hanging out?

Seems to be, makes for an interesting read!

 

[Waynne]

Do what job? This team eth put together is absolutely dreadful. And that is thanks to his transfer targets. We need a new guy with better plan, and hopefully better transfer game, ETH ruined his time here with his player acquisitions.

Work with what we currently have? That job. Sure there's still some average players but we can't expect a new manager to come in and just clear out the squad. Just like with Ten Hag, its going to take a couple of transfer windows to revamp the team.
Either way I'm sick of the state of this team. No consistency, no pattern of play, lost at sea against poor to average opposition and it's been going on for a while now.

 

[AndyMUFC]

Results are improving but the performances aren't sustainable. It's honestly like last year never happened at times.

A lot of the things I admired him for last season have been thrown out of the window. Not dropping the likes of Bruno and Rashford after having the balls to drop Ronaldo, the likes of McTominay and Maguire playing consistently again (they're not good enough long term despite credit for the moments in recent weeks) and constantly picking midfield combinations that can't control a game and having to rectify it every single time by bringing Eriksen on instead of just starting him.

 

[Big Ben Foster]

I didn’t realise a good performance against Spurs (a game we lost) is being herelded as some master class. Yet people claim standards haven’t dropped

Heard people say similar about the Arsenal game, the Brighton game, and the Bayern game. All games which we had a few good spells but never came close to winning.

 

[Sarni]

To be fair even looking at last season now, the whole myth about amazing, impressive season full of improvement was largely based on a relatively short period of 2 months after World Cup has finished and the League Cup win. We were abysmal to start the season, had a couple of good performances before WC and then those two months but were again quite poor with little direction towards the end of season. We had at least 10-12 truly bad performances, if not more.

I don’t think he is a particularly good tactician, he doesn’t manage games very well and his setup prior to the game is often suspect, from day 1 he didn’t strike me as a good man manager either - asking your players to run 14km because they lost a game might work with an U15 team but is likely not going to do much good with a bunch of adults. It’s even more evident this season as the players don’t really seem to be putting in much effort or playing with any clear belief. I know many blame players for that but it’s manager’s job to keep them motivated, which seems to not really exist at present. He also seems absolutely horrible at identifying transfer targets, this doesn’t really have to be part of his job but he’s truly horrendous at that.

 

[Sarni]

Heard people say similar about the Arsenal game, the Brighton game, and the Bayern game. All games which we had a few good spells but never came close to winning.

The Brighton game was an utter embarrassment. We got murdered at home by a team led by Lallana and Welbeck.

 

[Leftback99]

To be fair even looking at last season now, the whole myth about amazing, impressive season full of improvement was largely based on a relatively short period of 2 months after World Cup has finished and the League Cup win. We were abysmal to start the season, had a couple of good performances before WC and then those two months but were again quite poor with little direction towards the end of season. We had at least 10-12 truly bad performances, if not more.

I don’t think he is a particularly good tactician, he doesn’t manage games very well and his setup prior to the game is often suspect, from day 1 he didn’t strike me as a good man manager either - asking your players to run 14km because they lost a game might work with an U15 team but is likely not going to do much good with a bunch of adults. It’s even more evident this season as the players don’t really seem to be putting in much effort or playing with any clear belief. I know many blame players for that but it’s manager’s job to keep them motivated, which seems to not really exist at present.

Rashford's purple patch papered over a lot of cracks. I remember saying I'd dread to think where we'd be without it.

 

[Mickeza]

Rashford's purple patch papered over a lot of cracks. I remember saying I'd dread to think where we'd be without it.

Rashford’s form last year is exactly what you’d expect from one of the the lead attackers at a club of this stature. The fact he’s literally the only attacker we have who can even come close to that level when in form says everything about the squad building at this club. Our attacking options are ridiculous for a club with the expectation and resource we have. Does Salah scoring goals paper over Klopp’s issues?

 

[simonhch]

My one issue with Erik is his disinterest in rotating effectively. He's been forced to by injury, but otherwise there are too many guaranteed starters in the squad which is fundamentally bad for the team, competition, and freshness.

I have to ask myself right now what I want from each component of the team, and then it more or less picks itself. This question is answered differently game to game. The challenges and expectations posed by Sheffield United are very different to Manchester City. This is why you have a squad of players, and why you rarely stick to the same line up game after game. Having an idea of your best XI is good, but using it to death makes you predictable and tired, and I think we've seen an abundance of that this season. Fergie was the master of rotation. A different XI for each occasion, tailored to the opposition. It's what made us so good.

So City, what do we want from the team? Well we know City are going to hog the ball, whether we like it or not. That's a given. We also know they are going to play a high line. That tells us two things. 1. When we get the ball we have to treat it with care, not waste possession because we won't get it very often. 2. We are going to pose our biggest threat on the counter at pace. So I want speed, directness and flair up front. In defence, I am not looking to play a patient passing game out from the back, because City press from the front better than anyone. I am looking for defensive solidity.

So my line up would be:

Onana - Amrabat, Varane, Maguire, Lindelof - Casemiro, Eriksen, Mount - Garnacho, Rashford, Hojlund

Dalot needs a rest. He's played every game and I prefer the combativeness of Amrabat against City and his ability to step into midfield. Then we've got three pure defenders in Varane, Maguire, Lindelof. In midfield I've sacrificed Bruno. Love the man but he's played every game, he gets overplayed, and no player should be a guaranteed start. But the main reason I've sacrificed him is because while he creates the best chances, he's also very careless with the ball. He's a high risk/high reward type of player. He's going to turn it over as much as he finds a team mate, because he's always looking for a killer pass. Against City that is going to hurt us, because it'll just come back at us constantly. Casemiro is a must to anchor that midfield, and Eriksen and Mount are ball handlers. They will keep possession and treat the ball with more care, and we are going to need that to take the pressure off. Eriksen is one of the best players in the league at breaking the lines with his passing, so I see him as vital to setting Rashord and Garnacho away.

Up front I want the pace and directness of Garnacho and Rashford. To stretch that back line and look to get in behind. It will be our primary threat. Hojlund is there for his ability to bring others into play and hold it up to take the pressure off.

On the bench that is going to leave us with some good options. Fernandes, Martial, McTominay, Antony etc.

Is this the right line up? I'm not sure. Won't know until we play, but what it represents is this need to rotate and tailor our game for the occasion. I feel like Erik is so desperate to succeed that he is putting his best XI available out every game and he's running them into the ground. And just because Bruno, for example, is the captain and maybe best player, doesn't mean he has to play every game, or is right for every game. We have to start looking at the season as the collection of 60+ matches that it is, and utilise the squad better. Everything about this club is viewed with short-termism in mind and not holistically. And that seems to have spread to the manager. He needs to show more faith in his squad, start rotating, and start tailoring his line ups and the way we play to unqiue challenges of each opponent.

 

[Lay]

I still can’t get over last seasons decision of putting Bruno against Trent, who was being ripped apart every week, instead of Rashford. Seemed a no brainer of a decision and it baffles me still.

 

[Leftback99]

Rashford’s form last year is exactly what you’d expect from one of the the lead attackers at a club of this stature. The fact he’s literally the only attacker we have who can even come close to that level when in form says everything about the squad building at this club. Our attacking options are ridiculous for a club with the expectation and resource we have. Does Salah scoring goals paper over Klopp’s issues?

It's the norm for Salah, with Rashford no one expected it last season and now he's reverted back to his usual lower level of output.

 

[kouroux]

I still can’t get over last seasons decision of putting Bruno against Trent, who was being ripped apart every week, instead of Rashford. Seemed a no brainer of a decision and it baffles me still.

A good example of a manager complicating football just because he wants to be seen as some sort higher intellect.

 

[city-puma]

.
What I wrote is our many problem.. Big gaps between defense and other players.

The solution is easy... Compress the space between defenders and strikers.
There is no other way. Everything else will fail.

There are only 8 red shirt players and I assume there is another on the far right side to make a total of 9 players. Where is the 10th player? This scene seems ridiculous in many aspects.
Update: it’s Maguire the 10th who was deep behind.

 

[Baxquux]

There are only 8 red shirt players and I assume there is another on the far right side to make a total of 9 players. Where is the 10th player? This scene seems ridiculous in many aspects.

Maguire, presumably, and he's hiding off screen, well into his own half...

 

[city-puma]

Maguire, presumably, and he's hiding off screen, well into his own half...

Yeah, it has to be him from the image.

 

[Valdemar]

I still firmly believe Ten Hag will turn things around if we just give him time. We have heard all the complaints about patterns of play, players not running enough, loosing second balls, weird personal mistakes at cruical moments ever since Fergie retired. I agree that it doesn't really look good right now, but I just hope the board and us fans stay behind him and let him sort it out. The last thing we should do is get rid and get a new guy in which will have a promising start until it all turns to shit after some time. There is this unison view that United should be fighting for the title and the CL just because we are Man Utd. In reality we are far from the elite clubs in Europe right now and switching managers all the time doesn't really work, especially when we dont have a firm structure where we can just slot a new manager into a ready made football structure. With all the toxic and rotten shit that has been following the club lately i feel Ten Hag is the one positive thing. He demands respect and professionalism from his players, and we should back him, not take side with weak players who cant deal with the pressure. Thats how i remember United of old. Real characters with a never say die attitude.

 

[MackRobinson]

There are only 8 red shirt players and I assume there is another on the far right side to make a total of 9 players. Where is the 10th player? This scene seems ridiculous in many aspects.
Update: it’s Maguire the 10th who was deep behind.

Antony is forward on the right and Maguire is behind Varane to the left.

I remember this and was confused as well with the tactics.

 

[DJ_21]

I'm not going to worry about a crap couple of games right at the start of the season. We've had shite starts for as long as I can remember.

I've said this in another thread, but the other side to that coin is that we're grinding out results despite playing shit with an injury stricken squad, so when everyone's fit and firing, surely it can only get better?

You’d think things could only get better. Couldn’t get any worse to be honest. ETH causes most of his own problems though to be fair. Not dropping out of form players is sending no message at all. It’s giving the players on the bench no hope of starting and it’s giving the out of form players no motivation as they know they’re guaranteed to play. If we pull off a massive win against city then that could Be a game changer and set us up nicely for the rest of the season.